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Transcript - Time Talks Ep 40 - Melancholy Joy Mixtape ft. carla joy bergman

Transcripts for Time Talks Ep 40 - Melancholy Joy Mixtape w ...

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

song, melancholy, music, joy, talking, people, melancholic, love, feel, listening, thought, big, play, life, hear, playlist, sad, carla, called, sole

SPEAKERS

Tracy Chapman, Pet Shop Boys, Holy Cole, Sade, Burial, Final Straw Podcast, Bobs Your Uncle, Sole, Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush, SBTRKT (feat. Sampha), Chris, carla, Andre 3000 - Me&My, Time me, Jason/Maudlin Magpie & produced by A Thousand Vows, chris, Juice WRLD, Nat King Cole., Organized Konfusion

chris time steele 00:04

Welcome to Episode 40 of the time talks podcast part of the channel zero network. This episode I'm joined by another channel zero network member. My wonderful friend carla bergman. carla is co-author of Joyful Militancy with Nick Montgomery. carla edited the book Radiant Voices and put together the Emma Talks series, and collaborated on the work Pandemic Solidarity. Along with being an author carla is a filmography checkout joyful threads productions. On top of that, check out the podcast carla collaborates on. There's the Silver Threads podcast and the Grounded Futures podcast. These links are in the show notes. For this episode, we had a conversation and put together a playlist on the topic of melancholy joy, sharing some of our stories and the ways we use music to navigate life and living. Thank you to Awareness for the music and here's a brief jingle from a fellow channeled zero network member.

Final Straw Podcast 00:59

The final straw is a weekly anarchist radio show. It's fucking awesome and you're never gonna hear me say fucking awesome on our show. Because we're FCC regulated, there's a black part of my heart that that just flutters when you when you talk like that. Talk, then more yelling. it's a weird sort of like nice thing in a way but also can get kind of crushing at times the finalstrawradio.noblogs.org

chris 01:32

I just wanted to begin and say that you're a wonderful writer, poet, curator, conductor, filmographer, author, revolutionary, Joyarchist, artist, kinetic thinker and so much more and just wanted to thank you for doing this Melancholy Joy Mixtape. I was wondering if you could kind of open with what you kind of frame what melancholy joy is? Because when you first mentioned it to me, just the phrase put together a lot of things that in a way that I like sad music and how sad music brought me relief, and how I've been attracted to two minor notes and all that and just the vibe so I really meant a lot to me when you mentioned it to me.

carla joy bergman 02:14

That's really nice. It's an honor to be here. Thank you. And I would repeat all that back to you, that you are too - kinetic thinker and Joyarchist, and all that.. thank you means a lot. I'm a bit nervecited as the My Little Pony say, Just give me a second. Yeah, if it's okay if I can give a little bit of a historical story around it because it like everything with me and always has this like, aha moment. So similar. I've always been attracted to sad music. And it was actually we have a radio station in Canada, that's, I guess, a public radio called CBC and did really good shows on it. And there was an episode on this idea of melancholy music, and so I was what's that? And of course, they talked about Joni Mitchell a lot, a Canadian sweetheart. And I was like, yeah, that's real. And they had said the person I can't even remember who was on probably a musician in Canada, but they said, you know, melancholy just means a thoughtful sadness. And I was like, Oh, yeah, that's what I am. I'm like, thoughtfully sad. But as time went on, I went through just stuff that was happening on the global like, collective grief 911 happened, some other stuff, some personal stuff. I really noticed that through all my sad periods of time, I always had a belly full of joy. Best way to describe it, I just, Joy's just really, really big in me. So I thought about a decade later, I I think I tried to create a handle on Twitter, melancholy joy, but I had done a few forums, online forums... And a part of it was because, I had a bit of a judgment that if you weren't melancholic, you weren't paying attention to the world, and but that you could still have a thriving life. So it has a kind of a political resonance to it like it will not even it went beyond music. The story moves into militant joy, because militant, to me is more has more power, I guess, or more collective power. It's more active than melancholy. But the pandemic hit again, or hit and melancholy really resurfaced in my life. Collectively, I could feel that collective grief. And I was just really attracted again to listen to melancholy joy music and, really listening to your album that you put out this year. reignited that again in me and I think that's why I said sent it to you because I was like, Oh, this is melancholy, joy, music, then your newest one that you've put out.

chris 04:44

Thank you so much. That's so kind. And I also see the phrase you use of melancholic hope. And that's a really powerful word too. And I think that's kind of what you find in the melancholy joy is this hope of kind of listening to sad music or music that helps you reflect and re energize yourself again, and there's a hope in melancholy, of just even being able to verbalize or feel that you're melancholic is the hope because you're able, then you're reflecting and saying, like, I'm sad, I have sadness and anger. And I'm able to work with those now, and kind of water those seeds to work through problems. And I think that's one thing that music does so well.

carla 05:30

Yeah, I love that. Nick Montgomery, who co wrote joyful militancy started talking about Empire and joy, and our book, using music as an example. And that Empire has this really loud music that's really loud and drowns everything else out. And when I started, when you asked me to do this show, I was like, Oh, I wonder how melancholy joy music fits into disrupting that, because one of the things that I added to the conversation was that it's, the problem is listening. It's not so much that it's louder. I think that we, all the other music or other sounds are the other ways of talking with each other is there, it’s present. And there's something about that melancholic hope, like you say that it's there. Like the possibilities are there, the seeds are there, and they just need us to water them, as you so graciously said to me once, that I loved. Yeah, so yeah, I love that.

chris 06:23

Yeah, what you say of how it's there. That's really, I feel the explanation and so hard to explain it with melancholy joy in those terms, like it's something that's there, it's something you can feel, and it's like a vibe, and joyful militancy. I really liked the quote from Glen Coulthard. When you mentioned you all had mentioned that he put his finger on something of sadness and anger and how they often stem from love. And just a little bit of this quote is: "I think that for the somber, melancholic militant, I get it, I understand it, how could you not be, and this is my point, the only way you respond to the world like that is because of some base sort of individual and collective self respect, some love for oneself and others, were the land that you are being violated in a profound way. This produces melancholy, anger, whatever, they're not separable." And I really thought that that whole quote is just powerful. And for anyone who has a book, it's on page 175. So there's no citation violations there.

carla 07:27

Nope. You can also get the book for free online.

chris 07:32

Yeah, I wanted to. I really thought that that quote was, he added more to this conversation too.

carla 07:38

Thanks for finding it. I need to put his whole interview up. It's so incredible.

chris 07:43

That'd be awesome.

carla 07:44

Yeah, that's really good. Because we interviewed him, obviously, because he talks about resentment and anger so much. And it was, like affirmative theory. It includes anger and rage. It's not negation, right, like, negation something else. And so I, thank you for bringing him in. Because I think that's a really important distinction about where melancholy fits into the conversation right now. I worked really hard to not be a melancholic person. So it's like dang, it's back again.

chris 08:17

Well, yeah, I hope it's like a productive melancholy joy. I mean, that's what I wanted. That's what I really felt with this mixtape. And then it brings up deeper discussions on our end. And, feelings and, and just other reactions that I feel are productive in thinking deeper about society. And a lot of these things are produced from such a disgusting messed up society, at least with my picks that helped me find ways to navigate through these parts of society. So before we start, I was just going to just give a little intro on why I picked these, a whole foundation of how I picked them. And I just wanted to say that I framed how I picked my choices with assuming that there's a lot of nuances and and I'm sure that's why you picked yours as well, that they have nuances that they're not just the songs but they relate to life, your life and timeline. And I picked these songs for a few reasons. For one, they may sound like they're more melancholy songs, but they bring joy and solace. They are often songs I go to when I feel no more hope or little hope, songs I go to, to recharge, to recalibrate, to keep reminding myself that I'm not going to feel this way forever. And along with these choices, when I'm stressed I often find I get attached to a song and it becomes my crutch. I don't know if you're that way. They become my friend when I'm lonely and alienated, usually from work and ironically self imposed isolation that I often do unknowingly and then realize ...these were also songs that were some of my only friends during tough times that helped me build me back up again. Hopefully they can be tools for others and spark other discussions, another playlist like this.

carla 10:02

Oh, that's really beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, definitely some of that. For me the friend part for sure. The helping me move through like, I think melancholy is something that is imposed on us from the conditions of the world we're living in. And I think joy maybe is something that's within us that we can... Ursula Le Guin in the dispossessed talks about it as something that you can't control at all, It just will come in and do its thing and leave. I just really love that distinction. It was the seed for me thinking about joy differently. So yeah, when I think with my playlists, there's a couple things. I physically get affected when I'm sad. So my body gets, I get sick. I can't move. So for me, music has to have an element that makes me move. And I think that joy moves - when I move it moves with me or it moves first. I don't know what you know, is what comes first. But the music definitely, because thinking about like, part of whether it's collective or individually, like we try to find some harmony, and you think about that in terms of music, right? Like, what is that about? Like, what was that? What are we looking for ourselves, when we're not doing well, when were depleted and stagnated? and sad? Yeah, so I think that, that played like a role. I also thought about my personal journey in terms of finding freedom within myself. From stagnant music, what do you call it? First Family, our family of origin stuff that I needed to get away from some of those songs are about that and becoming a parent. I have like a definitely a theme of Don't tell me what to do. And I don't want to grow up. I think all of that kind of fits in. And it's kind of covering up Mushishi

chris 11:49

Yeah

carla 11:49

Because it's connected. I have a question for you before we maybe share playlists but I was rewatching Mushishi, maybe you can explain what Mushishi is after people need to but just google it. It's an animation. It's beautiful. Zen Buddhist healer Guy Ginko. But one of the episodes was about I think it's like the second or third one of the first season. I'm not gonna go into details of it because it's a small part of the story but Mushi comes in... mushi are these things that are not human, they are not fauna or flora, they're in between. And it comes into when there's no sound around. It burrows into the human's ears and eats their sound. I don't know if you remember that one. But, so it made me think about like, what is my sound? because I think this is connected to what music I'm drawn to. Because maybe that counterpoint or, or where's the harmony, from my sound to the sound from music. And in the show the woman who talks about it, her sound is lava, which is really intense sound to have to live with, holy. I asked my friend in Japan if it's a Japanese thing, and she said it's not but maybe regionally. I tried to find it, but there's probably not an English translation for it. But it feels pretty human. Like, I think it's pretty pan human probably that we can think about this. So I was thinking about like, my sound feels like if I feel into it, it's like the wind is collaborative. It's like the wind off of like a soft ocean, but it it has to go up into the trees too, like it's like this.woosh woosh. So when I thought about all the music I picked, I could hear it, I could feel it in it. So I'm curious if you've ever thought of that? Do you have a sound?

chris 13:34

That's an awesome question. I love the wind that you're talking about. The wind. I like wind in music. Sometimes I hear that a lot like Kate Bush's music, she creates these atmospheres. And a lot of her songs are about the mountain to go on top of the mountain. I would say a sound that I really resonate with is something I resonate most with is rain. So in a lot of my lyrics I'll use different words for rain like the typewriter rain tapped on the roof or the Fred Astaire rain or something like I'm always trying to get back to rain and I find it comforting and I live in a desert in so called Denver so we don't get a lot of rain. And, I also I like water too, sounds of water I find that calming, in Mushishi really has its soundtrack is very calming to the Anime. And I think it's the episode you're talking about when the mushi is in the pillow and going into people's ears, and the mushi turns into almost like conjis and it's dancing and going into people's ears or something. That one is so powerful. And one thing I really like about Ginko is he kind of does this mutual aid where he's going around town to town just helping people in educating and he's very introverted, he's not the most outwardly kindest person but Ginko has so much love in him. He just has a different way of his love language speaking.

carla 14:20

Yeah, everyone should watch Mushishi, or read the manga because they're equally as good if you need books.

chris 15:08

So good. Yeah, I love it.

carla 15:11

Yeah. And I think, yeah, we could we could do a whole show on Ginko

chris 15:16

That would be great.

carla 15:17

Because, ok just real quick the thing I always tell people why they should watch it is because there's no there's no judgment on the mushi or on the person who has it. The only judgment really is the people who don't help the person who's not well, that's the only time I see Ginko get upset with somebody is when they've done the wrong thing in terms of helping somebody, like they've judged them or something. And we could just all embody a bit of that we'd have a better world. You know?

chris 15:42

Yeah, I love that. I love that interpretation.

carla 15:45

Also, I need to say because any of my friends who are listening in family, I need to respond and say that rain is like, my favorite thing in the world. I did a whole project called rain. It stood for radical art in nature.

chris 15:58

I love that

carla 16:02

Yeah. rain is and I live in a rainforest. So I get a lot of rain. Yeah. So much of my son's music, Zach's music has rain in it. I am with you on that one.

chris 16:12

That doesn't surprise me. We have so many commonalities.

carla 16:15

I know.

chris 16:16

So I'm gonna start with Bob's, Talk to the Birds by Bob's Your Uncle.

carla 16:22

Okay, so this came out in 1985. I was living in so called Victoria, which is like the capital of British Columbia. And I was 18 just going on 19 and I hung out at a punk bar. With all the punk bands that played there that came through No means No, Dagloabortions, a lot of local people, but also Black Flag came through and so on and so forth. And when Bob's your Uncle came through, it was so exciting. First of all, a woman front person was really quite rare. A woman of color was even more rare in punk. And they were just they talk about joy, but it was also about feeling alienated as young people and poor people. And so it had that melancholic energy to it. And I bought their tape and I had a little yellow Walkman and I played it so much that it died. And she's at she's went on Sook Yin Lee has gone on to be she was like a vj for Much Music, which is the Canadian version of MTV which was really big back, and she was in Shortbus the movie. Now she's on CBC and does other stuff but yeah, I talked to birds I still do. I still talk to the birds.

Bobs Your Uncle 17:35

SONG: Talk To The Birds

chris 21:12

I love that song. When I heard this song, it really made me think just like the rebelliousness of school at first. Kind of imagine the teacher and then ditching class and then getting your real class from talking to some birds, or your real education from leaving school and going into nature. Also thought of it as an overarching ideology as well.

carla 21:40

Oh, yeah, say more

chris 21:42

Or just, they'll tell you, they tell you to do this, they say do this. But usually everything that they tell you to do with an ideology or hegemony is some form of coercion to get you to start renting somewhere, because you need to have all of these things, but you have to sell your time and your body for money. And people will tell you, well, if you don't have enough money, ideology, and capitalism says well get two jobs, you know, and they are always telling you something that's going to lead to more coercion instead of any form of liberation.

carla 22:19

Yeah, they're really fun. People should look them up. They have this one song. If I knew baking a cake or something. It's probably a cover. If I knew you were coming I’d have baked a cake. You know that song?

chris 22:30

Oh, yeah.

carla 22:31

Yeah, they do it really well

chris 22:33

Anything else you want to add on that song?

carla 22:36

Oh, just I mean, I think like, the big thing was that they were just, it was just really great to encounter them during a time when punk was really important to me. But alongside that in a city that racism is really, really ramped. I was just everywhere, Victoria is very British. Like you cannot always tell the difference between the skinheads and the punks. So I don't know. They were just really great.

chris 23:02

That's awesome. Thank you for showing me their music. Okay, so this song is by Organized Konfusion. Who is Prince Poetry and Pharoahe Monch. And they're, they're an older group. And Pharoahe Monch has turned out to be one of my favorite lyricists when I got older. And Prince Poetry was amazing. And this song is probably one of my biggest go tos when just feeling down or, or depressed or existential. Yeah, that song is just really deep. And it talks about these two fetuses inside of their mother. And they're kind of just rapping about life.

Organized Konfusion 24:07

SONG Invetro

carla 24:33

I love that one really speaks to that power of the joy. You know? Despite everything, be curious and dream. I Love it. And it also makes me want to move, which is like my criteria for melancholy joy music.

Chris 27:44

It's a great beat. I love it. And one of the lines that when I was re listening to this song is by Prince poetry, he says, “overshadowed in darkness where curiosity is my light.” And I just love that bar so much. And it reminded me of our conversation. But like the deeper, like a deeper meaning to this song is I don't know, it just makes me think about mortality a lot. And when my mom was pregnant with me, she smoked. And the whole time I resonated with what Pharoahe Monch was talking about. And he was born with asthma, actually. And I think he struggles with that during shows but is an amazing performer. And then another thing is when my mom I think was about eight, nine months pregnant, she fell down the stairs. And she landed on her stomach. And she was bleeding profusely and she was crying. She's freaking out. She went to the hospital. And the doctor told her that her baby was dead, which was me. And she needed to have it removed. And she was just in shock. So she left the hospital and was like, oh, I'll deal with this tomorrow. And then when she went back to her own doctor, they were like, No, your baby's alive has a heartbeat. So it must have been knocked out or something. I don't know.

carla 29:15

Wow, that is beautiful.

chris 29:17

Yeah. crazy story.

carla 29:21

So my mom was told that I wasn't gonna I was dead too. I wasn't gonna live.

chris 29:26

Wow. And

carla 29:30

yeah. She didn't have an accident. I was like, it was just, it was a situation and during labor. And they had to make a decision to save her or me, they chose her because obviously she had four children.

chris 29:44

Wow. Amazing. Thank you for sharing that story. That's so powerful

carla 29:50

Well same, I guess we really needed to be here.

Chris 29:55

Yeah,

carla 29:55

or wanted to be here

chris 29:56

Alright, so I'm going to play the next song, which is Don't Give Up by Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush.

carla 30:03

I mean, first of all, that hug in the video, just the beauty of the like friendship that they have for each other and the intimacy that's just so pure. I tried to post it early on in the pandemic, because I was like, Who else needs to see this all the time? But I kept getting taken down because I didn't have rights to it. But, yeah, it's kind of like an ethos that's run through my life. I even had a campaign during the Thistle days that I went around to all the schools me my friend, I probably shouldn't say whatever, it doesn't matter. We had stickers that said, don't give up quit. Because to me, it's like part of not giving up is not giving up on yourself. And so that means you sometimes gotta quit a whole pile of things. Especially with young people I like to frame it that way. And yeah, this song just when I'm at my like, lowest lowest point I always go to it I mean, I Gabriel is just so important when I was a teen and Kate Bush especially later on... also other people who have performed it with it. I loved it too like Paula Cole, who was his backup singer for years and then went on to her own career. Yeah, just, it's just a it's a it's a love story about friendship. I think a lot of people think it's about a romantic relationship but I mean she she even talks about like what your your your friends we have you we got you, you know? Yeah, somebody on the brink helped remember that friends. It's so good.

Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush 31:30

SONG: Don't Give Up

37:22

Yeah, I love this song

chris 37:24

Yeah, I love this song and I really hadn't really heard it much until you had mentioned it to me. And I've been listening to it all week. And yeah, you're right. It's like a love story about friends. So cool and people need to hear those words don't give up but they also need to hear you worry too much. Just move on with it. So those messages

carla 37:48

Yeah, and on a personal trajectory like that last part. When Gabriel goes into the big reveal walking across the bridge like that. I listened to that probably on repeat when I was making the decision to leave my family behind. And like I would put it on my headphones and walk over these bridges. Like, act it out, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. So yeah, just like finding belonging. They talked about that in the song. It's so powerful. And what gets me is that it is still powerful, you know, after all these years, because it's speaking to our alienation from each other. And

chris 38:28

Yeah, that's how you know, it's, it's so real. I think another thing really cool about Kate Bush, and she actually incorporates her family a lot in her music. You know, her son was the one who encouraged her to go back into performing live again. And then she has him on her last live album. He's singing like three different songs with her. And I didn't know he was the one who made her start doing live shows again, and his voice is awesome, too.

carla 38:55

Thanks for sharing that I had no idea about that. And of course, as you know, I collaborate with my kids so that..my eldest had everything to do with helping you pick out this list.

chris 39:07

Exactly. It made me think about that.

carla 39:09

And that's really nice. And he's actually a huge Kate Bush fan bigger than me, so that's really nice. I wonder if he knows he probably does. Sole actually texted me the other day and said, it must be amazing to collaborate with your kid like, holy shit.

chris 39:26

This song is by Andre 3000 from OutKast, and he's taken a big hiatus, aside from doing features and stuff. He's been just learning to play the clarinet and diving into jazz more, but he came back and did this song, I believe with James Blake, who did the piano and the song is another song that I go to. It's a heartbreaking song called Me and My To Bury Your Parents.

Andre 3000 - Me&My 40:05

SONG: Me and My

carla 43:48

I had never heard that song until I saw your list and it's really sad. But also has this thread of like I can feel the light in it , and the joy. I mean, personally, it may not think about my parents, but it made me think about my eldest brother who died. Who was like my... there's the chorus of me and my and my and they don't say, he doesn't say anything else. Oh, yeah, that.

Chris 44:14

Yeah. And when you mentioned that, I noticed today that he goes, me and my mother. At the end, he goes, me and my mother, me and my father, me and my, me and, and then me as he ends it, and I had never noticed that breakdown until today. It was like, gave me goosebumps.

carla 44:36

Totally.

chris 44:37

Yeah, and it's such a heartbreaking song. But yeah, you're right. It has this joy in it. It has this nostalgic joy of even though, you know, he had to bury his parents. He has these memories and he has love with them. And as we talked about, time not being linear, so much. That's the beauty of nostalgia and the beauty of music that can conjure those time frames.

carla 45:01

You have an album called Newstalgia, did you come up with that?

chris 45:05

Like at the time I thought I did, but I don't know if I really did. Because I think there's even a producer or a rapper that goes by the name Newstalgia

carla 45:13

Right. Well, first of all, I heard it. And what I liked about it, I think there's an eagle right over my head. PS like, five inches. Okay, we talked about this a lot on this Silver Threads podcast, because I'm really interested in like, grabbing stuff from like, from the past and the future. But making sure we weave it into right now in the present. And newstalgia just captures that in a way that I hadn't really, I didn't have a word for it. I was just like, grab the thread from there and there and make a thing. And that's what I hear in the song. It's really great.

chris 45:56

Yeah, that was my exact thought with the album. I was like, I’m such a loser. I'm always like, with nostalgia. I'm always going towards it. It's like, but you have to love the present too. And I was like, what if I you know, the present could feel like nostalgia. If you were making those, those memories and those feelings and feeling them as nostalgia feels in the present. I feel there's a danger of just going to nostalgia all the time.

carla 46:24

Totally. Yeah.

chris 46:25

At least for me.

carla 46:26

Same, that's where depression links. lingers. Yeah.

chris 46:32

Okay, we're going to go to Fast Car by Tracy Chapman

carla 46:36

We won't play this whole song.. cry. Well, first of all, Tracy Chapman is like, where I really learned my politics. You know, like, you know, I grew up in around a lot of punk music and stuff, but I have a joke where like, there's sex pistol anarchism, and then there's anarchism, right? Or anti authoritarianism or whatever. Anyways, Tracy is like her music just educated me in a way that the other punk didn't - she's just incredible. I saw her live. It was like the best thing ever, outside... And this song as someone who grew up pretty poor in a dysfunctional home and when I met my partner like it's just our song just everything about it. And you know, it is our trajectory like if he could just like give me the foundation I will take us places kind of thing and even after it's been moving together over 30 years and we still like hear it and go it's feels like yesterday, but we had to take this leap of faith together and run away or run towards joy in our life and yeah, it's just I think it's like a pinnacle melancholy joy song because it's a lot of loss wrapped up in it but it's also about freedom and liberation and finding your way.

Tracy Chapman 48:37

SONG Fast Car

chris 52:00

I love that song. The way that she goes from narration to heart so effortlessly is just amazing. I love the lyrics so much. And I was wondering when you said that, along with punk because I know you have a history with the punk scene, the different branches that Tracy Chapman gave you maybe with like a political vocabulary or outlook?

carla 52:26

Right, I mean, I guess it was just, you know, to borrow the phrase intersectionality I mean, that it had also had especially to that album, like it had a lot about forgiveness on it and love. And yeah, finding the path towards liberation versus just always in fighting against or negation. And that was something I really needed. You know, early on, when my brother was into punk, I used to say, I don't know how you can listen to this. It's just all negative. And like, No wonder you're depressed all the time. Like, you know, I listened to The Police instead. This is like 77/78. So finding her like she had that kind of like, you know, things are bad. Call things what they were, she was, you know, obviously, pointing out the horrors of the world. But within this framework of a container of like love and kindness, forgiveness, that was really beautiful. Like the other song on the album, though. Chris, my partner, when I met him he had played on the guitar. Three of the songs he played and sang.

chris 53:35

No way. That's awesome.That's so cool.

carla 53:40

I don't know. What about you?

chris 53:42

When I first heard this song, it really brought out a lot of the just the stories that you don't often hear about, of a really just class issues. And of course, race and white supremacy tied into these. But when you hear the the one that really resonates with me is the man who was drinking becauses his body, he felt had no more use, but his he was much too young for how his body looked... that's so powerful, just that, that phrasing of the way that she took it. And it really just made me think of when I worked in the Union. I worked in the stagehands Union for a while, right before COVID or year before COVID. And I was on the carpet duty which was a horrible thing. So I would lay miles of carpet a day in the convention centers for Comic Cons and stuff. And these guys that I worked with that had been there for years, they could only be comfortable when they were laying carpet when they were trying to walk out to the light rail station, it brought them horrible pain to walk and they had their legs had so much arthritis and stuff and these guys weren't even that old. It really, that lyric really resonated with me when I heard this again.

carla 54:56

Yeah, yeah, the working class stuff was really. It's a big part of why that song works for us.

chris 55:03

Do you want to add on this?

carla 55:06

Just that it had the theme of finding belonging again, which was like oh, there's that that's probably what's underneath all of my play song

chris 55:14

this story behind this song too, that you shared. So I'm gonna play the next song is miserabilism by Pet Shop Boys

Pet Shop Boys 58:12

SONG: Miserabilism

chris 59:20

The way I got into this song was actually when I started working from home during COVID. I've been laid off from my other job, and I started at the call center job I was talking about. And this was like a hellacious job in between calls which was usually only about 20 seconds. I would throw on I was like I'm gonna try to get through all these discographies of people I like, and I was like I was going through Pet Shop Boys, I had never heard the song it was on some B-side and I was like this song is amazing. It's because I've always thought that the whole Disney narrative has messed up so many people of this capitalist thing of working hard. There's someone for everyone you'll find love, all these things. They create a golden, a gold plated lust. That is a form of what they call love, and dusted with capitalism or something like that. And when he's talking about just that life will be disappointing and all these things and not having expectations. It's just so well said and comforting. I found, especially while working in a call center.

carla 1:00:25

Yeah, thanks for sharing that story and re-listening to that and hadn’t listened to it years, but there was a line in it. I think, I hope, it's in it. Oh, my gosh, it made me think: I wonder if this was some seeds around the melancholy thing of being like wearing it as a badge of honor because it there's that line where just for the sake of it, make sure you're always frowning It shows the world you're got substance and depth. Like I was quite judging of you if people were not melancholy. I was like, You can't be paying, you're just not paying attention. How many people are suffering?

chris 1:00:58

Yeah, that's actually yeah, that's the third verse. Yeah, it's it's one of my favorite lines, because it's just it's funny for one, but then yeah, it's kind of deep too. And it's like, there's a lot of people who, and I know there's so much to you know, different neuro divergence of sometimes people who smile the most are actually very depressed. I just like how he plays with this whole thing of you have to show that if you see someone frowning, they understand this philosophy of miserabilism. There's no happy endings just a message to depress and it's so funny and true.

carla 1:01:35

And it has a beat that makes you move so that the joy can move. Yeah, they always said the great dancy beats. Okay, so now we're going to Nat King Cole. Song Nature Boy. Oh, I didn't have the song on my first playlist. I think first one, I sent to you didn't have this. I do have it on the large original one. But I was on a walk with Zach and he reminded me that I sing the song all the time. When I am not doing well. And also because like love was like the thing like you centering everything in love is what actually got you healthy. It's not It's not about the negative and fighting back and Don't tell me what to do and don't want to do this and I don't want to it was all about actually more affirmative and really big fan of Moulin Rouge, seen it more than I want to admit and including seeing it in San Francisco at the Castro with everyone's with a sing along. So the song is just incredible and because there is the melancholic energy throughout it but you know, the message is so short and so quick, but it's everything.

Nat King Cole. 1:02:44

SONG: Nature Boy

chris 1:05:10

I think that is just such good advice, this song and I wish I would have heard this when I was young. The the message is so powerful. Oh, you were speaking of the Moulin Rouge

carla 1:05:36

Actually been there I haven't been inside but I've seen it outside of Paris - that's really good to know. Have you not seen the movie?

chris 1:05:45

I'm not in a long time. I haven't No.

carla 1:05:48

Yeah, it's we have a joke in our family that it's actually Christian that is actually the character not Ewan McGregor but the joke is a Ewan McGregor gave me a call tomorrow that I dumped the whole family. But it's it's really that character just heartache, and so beautiful.

chris 1:06:09

Love it. And this is the most common song that you you actually verbalize when you're stressed out?

carla 1:06:16

Yeah. that's one of those things I didn't even know I did it can reflect people you live with reflect back to you did this thing

chris 1:06:25

I love that your kid collaborated and got this song on here and then got this song into my into my heart in my mind. Okay, so I'm going to now play Sade - When Am I Going To Make a Living?

Sade 1:07:20

SONG: When Am I Going To Make a Living?

chris 1:09:56

So aside from this, it has been an amazing song, and I am a big Sade fan, when I was in high school, I stopped playing basketball, and for the school, and I broke my knee and had surgery and then to play basketball. So I started working at the hospital. And I was working at Rose Medical Hospital in Denver. And they had this free jukebox in the cafeteria. And this was one of the albums that was on there. And there was this this woman who I worked with in the cafeteria and in the kitchen and she showed me this song. And she was kind of like my real teacher, she was teaching me through Sade. She was saying, she would always tell me the line that the waste your body and soul if you allow them, and she was an older Black woman from the south, and she was like a mentor to me, she was like you need to do good in school, would talk to me about getting out of there getting out of the kitchen, if I could. So I was a pot washer, was probably there till I was 19, so probably about five years. And the jukebox had all kinds of other annoying albums. And this was the one that was great. I remember they had a Who let the Dogs Out by the Bahama Men, and it was a single, and this one cook he put in the code like six times to drive people crazy. And then we'd have to unplug the jukebox. But I really just learned a lot from this song. This song just has such a powerful message.

Carla 1:11:14

I love that story. Holy moly. Is that like layers? Yeah, she's amazing, big on the playlist of me, choosing joy over sorrow, really, at that time in 2001. And listen to her a lot. This song is really important for me too, because I was in the restaurant business for years. It's like generational, like my grandmother owned restaurants. And I was really good at it. And I was in Toronto and I was the the owner wanted me to open a restaurant with him in Vancouver and be partners and I was listening not to the song, but to some part of my playlists and other people and just like I'm gonna not be working class anymore which is a joke ,because you can't actually say you're not going to do anymore. But I decided that I had a retirement party. And I've never turned back. I've never worked in a restaurant since I was 35, I think it's just a really important message in there is just an important nuance because people like capitalists, what's that shit line of like, do what you love, the money will follow bullshit. But there's the thing with like working class folks that we do to ourselves where we don't we don't believe in ourselves and I love that in this line. But in that line in the song I think yeah, there's just a nuance in it that it's not about playing the capitalist game, but it's about believing in yourself so that you can find thriving. Yeah, thanks for picking it.

chris 1:12:49

Yeah. I love that. Thanks for adding that. We're doing the Holly Cole version. So this next song is I Don't Want to Grow Up

Holy Cole 1:13:26

SONG: I Don't Want To Grow Up

carla 1:17:00

Yeah, so this song has played a factor, since I was a teenager because the Ramones did it first, much more upbeat, funnier version. Really, I think, the perfect version for a teen to listen to, really resonated. I have fought so called adultism all my life in terms of the rigidity that I seen the suffering and whatever that meant. And then fast forward bunch of years, just after I gave birth to Zach my oldest son in 94. That's around when she came out with this album, she covered a bunch of Tom Waits songs. Which is funny because Tom Waits version is actually the one that resonates the most with me now because it feels so playful and he's older and I don't know I just relate to him more I think but this was really I was really stuck with what does it mean to not want to grow up in this way but be a parent and i just yeah, I listened to it often and with you know, my baby on my on my chest, thinking about it didn't give in didn't grow up in that way.

chris 1:18:09

I love those threads that you put through it. Yeah, I do. I think the Ramones is the the you know the most playful and then Tom Waits is kind of the middle, which Tom Waits is what Tom Waits is so good at, of being melancholy and playful and funny at the same time. And then Holly Cole just really brings out, takes takes away that sarcasm and you really just feel the the rawness of the lyrics, which is why I love this version it's Yeah, it's so powerful, but still resilient at the same time.

carla 1:18:40

Totally. Yeah. Tom Waits. Exactly. And I originally picked his version because it is melancholic joy. But the story is better.

chris 1:18:48

No, yeah, thank you for something that all together. We messed around and made a really good playlist.

carla 1:18:54

Yes. Totally fun. It was Yeah, melancholy joy.

chris 1:18:59

So I'm going to play the track Legends by Juice WRLD who recently passed away rest in peace Juice Wrld

Juice WRLD 1:19:06

SONG: Legends

chris 1:22:15

You can hear Juice WRLD’s, his heart and his music and his his soul and just the vulnerability of mostly Juice WRLD's music is so powerful and his voice the the beats that he uses too. And I really just resonate to the song because I don't know if it goes back to when my mom was smoking when she was pregnant, but my lungs, they they collapse randomly and actually collapsed four times one right when I turned 18, just back to back and then I had up surgeries. And the top lobes of my lungs had to be removed. And I was going in and out of the hospital for probably about a year or two. So I was always on dilaudid in the hospital, just messed up my head so bad. And then they would give me like percocets and all this. And, you know, it's essentially like battling with addiction of pain pills, just because I was depressed. But I didn't think I was I think that was the scariest thing. It just was like, Oh yeah, I'll take one because I have all these and I have a little bit of pain. And then it was turning into, you know, a hole to dig down that that was a dangerous hole. And I really just relate to what, what Juice WRLD’s talking about in this on top of this. And the things that he struggled with. I know there was another artist that was lost who had a similar vulnerability to their lyrics was Lil Peep. Couple years ago, too. It's just had this amazing way of writing too. And the lyrics that really resonate with me in the song is that I usually have an answer to the question but this time I'm going to be quiet. Ain't nothing like the feeling of uncertainty that eeriness of silence. And so powerful. When I work with a lot of youth in high schools, I know a lot of them relate to juice wrld too, because they're going in school at this time that's worried about school shootings, worried about climate change. So many existential things are already heavy on top of just being in high school, those feelings at the time. So there's just a lot of intersections and things that collide with this song and why I relate to it.

carla 1:24:25

Thanks for sharing about your story and being vulnerable. I am so sorry. That's a lot to contend with. Glad you

chris 1:24:32

Thank you.

carla 1:24:34

Yeah, music really helps, right?

chris 1:24:37

Yeah.

carla 1:24:38

I love that song, too. I actually had the same quote pulled out so not surprisingly, I just yeah, I had shared the list with Zach today. And he was blown away that the song was on it. And he was like, Oh, it's just too sad. Lil Peep and they're all dead...Yeah. But yeah, the love for each other, though that comes through in the song. Like about, you know, like the music will live on it's one of the things that writers die to like I'm like, I'm so grateful that I still have their their words to carry me, carry generations, not just me. I really like that in that too. Yeah.

chris 1:25:17

Yeah, and like one beautiful thing about art is that it literally saves lives. And I know that this song saves lives every day. And that's another thing of just beautiful art.

carla 1:25:30

Yeah. yeah

chris 1:25:31

Okay, so this next track is better by Burial. The new song is Untrue.

Burial 1:25:35

SONG: Untrue

carla 1:31:15

Feelings, feelings and saw because you girl, man Yeah, there's like many stories for this. I think probably why I I think probably why I chose it is in 2017 I got really sick and was in bed for about eight months. I love to dance. It's how I like how I move through being sad, and I couldn't dance. So I kind of came up with this plan that if I put a record on and laid on the floor, like on the hardwood floor, I would feel the vibrations of the music. And my body would get my Vegas nerve activated. Move. And Zach put on this and yeah, it just became like a healing theme song. Especially Untrue. And then during the pandemic, it just, you know, that feeling of being in quarantine and stuff and being stuck at home like, had a similar feeling even though I could physically dance. So, you know, I just listened to it every day. And I mean, we have all of Burial's stuff. But this is the one that I go to. And then I think I shared this with you. But Mark Fisher writes about a story about him writing this this particular song with his mom and him being really sad. I think if their dog his dog just died or something. And he wrote something, and his mom didn't like it and told him to like, just go make some tea and fuck everybody and do his work, find his passion or whatever. I can't remember the exact quote. It's really good. And that just made me love it even more, because he immediately went and wrote this song Untrue, and she loved it.

chris 1:33:02

And then it turned to be his breakout hit right?

carla 1:33:04

Yes.

chris 1:33:06

I love his story so much I had never known until you told me it's so cool. So when you started using the song kind of as a ritual for healing Did you notice a big difference right away?

carla 1:33:18

Yes. Sorry, the wind

chris 1:33:19

It’s fine. This episode is featuring the wind.

carla 1:33:23

Yes. Which is our sound?

chris 1:33:25

Yeah. It's a form of music. I mean, I first heard Burial, it was on a Thom Yorke remix and I just love the haunting syntha but it's still dancey and some my favorite type of music, a reason why I love the new wave so much and Trance and some EDM and stuff like that. I love that this pick is on the playlist. So next we're going to a Channel Zero Network friend, Tim who is Sole and the song is called Last Earth.

Sole 1:34:08

SONG: Last Earth

chris 1:36:22

So, for one, Sole is one of my favorite lyricists, one of my favorite writers, I don't know how many albums Sole has, it's gotta be, it's in the 20s it may be in the 30s, a prolific writer. And the reason I like this song is it has a melancholy joy to it. It's a lot of Sole's music does, but this is more of a dancey beat. It has William Ryan Fritch, from Sole and the Skyrider band singing with him. Just the beginning bars, so cool, I might be dead, but no flies on me. And he lived in Denver for a while. And we would often go to protests together. And I remember one day we were at one of these protests and he disappeared and he was arrested, kind of just for stepping off the curb for a second you know, the average blocking traffic or something. And the line all up in the cell talking FTP, is just so funny to me, but so Sole at the same time, and so true. And the just the way that he gets into other topics too, he says that's a bad trip, like when whites cross the sea, talking about colonialism, questioning dogma, which is something he does so well with his the way that he intervenes with anarchy and anarchism. And the course to the planet Earth, you don't belong to anyone, we will undo the feudal age. And then he always gets into little sci fi tangents as well like talking about the simulation theory or are we in a projection, and then the playfulness of Sole as well that sometimes he dreams he's flying through space to sees other just all these images of liberation will talking about desecration at the same time, which is I find inspiring and comforting and reflective.

carla 1:38:07

Thanks for putting the song on. I hadn't heard it. Already adore Tim/Sole. So I had pulled out similar lines as you but I'm the one in the chorus that we will die trying, I love so much because I mean that's that willingness, you know? I think like in all my social media bios I just wrote, I try... because I think that's like the least we, I mean, it's the most we can do actually. And I think isn't there like a Rebecca Solnit told me this, like, it's actually what an essayist is, like somebody who writes political stuff for the world is at the ideas you try. So just really gravitates to that, so hearing that in the song with that, with those lyrics, I was like, that's the point. That's the whole entire point is to try.

chris 1:38:53

It really reminds me of the whole, Sole always did the whole détournement of Guy Debord and kind of see this in three parts. So the first one being 50 cent, Get Rich or Die Trying. And then Dead Prez, they kind of did a détournement and they said Get Free or Die Trying and then Sole, kind of Sole is in that vein very much with his music of or we will die trying

carla 1:39:16

Nice connection. Nice weaving. took what I said, no grounding and grounded it Thank you.

chris 1:39:27

No way. I didn't even think of it. until you brought it up. So yeah, that's the beauty of collaboration. Oh, you're so nice. You picked our song for the last song, which is I've always loved the monsters by by me, Jason/Maudlin Magpie & produced by A Thousand Vows

Time (me), Jason/Maudlin Magpie & produced by A Thousand Vows 1:39:58

SONG: I've Always Loved the Monsters

carla 1:43:26

So I wanted to pick something on the larger playlist too I also just picked something that just came out from Kinnie Starr... I just really wanted to bring it current. I listen to this song more than I'd like to admit it.. thank you so much for creating it both of you. It just. Yeah, it does bring that melancholy joy because it roots me into like a lot of things. I mean, almost every line, it's something that I've like, pondered or thought about, not in the exact same way or not in the same poetic way. But one of the things I'm really trying to figure out is like how to get out of my head and be more present so that I can just live more of a thriving life and so much of my work was about like creating thriving environments and containers for people but then I overworked myself and didn't thrive myself. Then there's just you have that in there and, and on the one hand like, like, the Jason's melody, like, it's kind of this counter to it because it's it's like this dilemma that I have around like more thought is like, takes me way out of presence, but yet your thoughts do untangle it all for me. So anyway, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put your lyrics back to you.

chris 1:44:37

I love that. Thank you, it's an honor that you feel that way. And to just give a little bit of context to this song is I had, I believe I've told you the story, but I had recorded this song, and this song talks about death like a lot of my songs which I get made fun of for. I had recorded this song. and it even says the one one day years hard will be beating the the next it might not be. And literally the next day, I got in a horrific car accident, almost died and had internal bleeding and stuff. And then my mind didn’t work that well for a while. It's such a severe concussion. And when I kind of came back to and I was able to write again and work on this album, I wanted to redo this verse, the song and Jason was like, no, that you recorded that. It's like, it almost was your last recording. Like you have to keep it. It's crazy. It's eerie. And maybe he's kind of a macabre person for wanting to keep it like it was but it was a good idea. But then I found out later that he actually wrote the chorus when I was injured pretty much, and he said he was kind of talking about how my mind is it always like can make a lot of connections and goes places so I was like wow, I never knew the chorus had to actually do with me and that he was worried about me when I was injured, so it kind of made, ties the song more together.

carla 1:46:04

Wow, that is probably what I've like it just has such it's so affectual like it's kinetic. Like I feel it in every way and also like I do a lot of work with my ancestral stuff and you just you cover it all like yeah my my sights.. What is it, my thoughts steal my sight? Oh man. Yeah, my daily. I apologize to my kids and my partner for that.. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that story. And I'm so glad you survived that accident. Yeah. And not to mention the title because we both love monsters.

chris 1:46:42

Yeah, no, definitely. That was that was the other thing of yeah, always, always love the Yeah, the monsters are not always the heroes of the stories or what's really strange is this last track that I picked by SBTRKT featuring sampha trials of the past is a song that actually was one of the ways I healed after my car accident. I didn't even think about how these lined up. I was I never took a day off of teaching after the car accident, which was a really dumb idea because I was throwing up after a lecture, anytime I use my my brain even if I read a text message, it would make me nauseous. And I was stubborn and took place in this debate I had already said I would go to on fracking, which I was glad I did because the fracking debate was horrible. And I threw up after that too. But this was a song that I would always listen to on the light rail. And it brought me peace and it made me feel free.

SBTRKT (feat. Sampha) 1:47:45

SONG: Trials of the Past

carla 1:51:15

I really like the songs, how does it help?

chris 1:51:19

Back to that thing where you say like it's just there, that vibe of this melancholy joy. For one, it's just the beats. I love this like tube synths in the minors in it and then some - Sampha's voice, it's just so soulful, and so calming and poetic. But when I would be on the light rail, and I was trying to get to like the front or the back of the car, and I stand up, and then I would pretend I was flying. And I didn't feel good, you know, because I couldn't really think, so I feel kind of weird too. I felt spacey. So I actually felt like I was flying above the light rail while listening to this over and over again for about a month. And then I love the second verse where he says I was always floating around the city, going with the flow without ever knowing where I want to be. So I got into crazy situations. And a loyal soldier who acts who acts who acts but never asks, that was my favorite line. And I just love that. And I know you and me, we really resonate about talking about questioning and questions.

carla 1:52:23

I really liked flying on my back, the looking down. Really, really related to that I think it has like it had this sense of like astral projection or something in it. I think there's some kind of like, beyond this physical realm. I mean, that's the joy. I think I pulled from it out of that.yeah

chris 1:52:44

Yeah, it reminds me of your story about Burial a little bit too, about how you were trying to get the nerve nerve activated going and like that form of dancing. And we had talked about in an email before this on other topics of what music is and music and ableism. And I was telling you about a friend I have who's a non hearing friend, and they told me, they were explaining to me about going to shows and that they enjoy going to shows where they can just feel the bass and the bass in their chest. And just the vibes of the energy of a show and all of those things. And just those things to consider when people are talking about music and ableism and all those things that tie in, and how music is part of everyone's realities.

carla 1:53:32

Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. It's really important. That's the thing like rhythm. Yeah, even a non hearing person they can feel it in their body. And I think that's really important because that's like I shared that quote. It's Zach's favorite quote the one about like that sound is you can't have music without sound but you can have sound without music and so therefore sound is more important. But it makes me think about that just opening up what sound is and how how we experience it and in even like a harmonic way or harmony way, like that's probably a whole other conversation that I'm probably not the best person to have it with because I don't really understand music, but just even the western narrow version of what music is versus the east. Just continues on the white supremist hegemonic road even what constitutes music.

chris 1:54:24

Yeah, like always trying to categorize and break things into binaries that are not necessarily. Going back to what you were saying about how you enjoy dance. And that's a way that you're able to express, just yeah, the music of that and just the rhythm of movement

carla 1:54:42

Even separating that in the West.

chris 1:54:47

I love that bird

carla 1:54:48

A little music

chris 1:54:51

And is a perfect book end because that's how we started it with talking to the birds.

carla 1:54:55

Yes. Nice. Nice. Did you want to say anything about your larger list before we wrap it up?

chris 1:55:03

Like the ones that I really picked on my extra was a song that I really grew up listening to which was Respiration by Blackstar. It's talking about the city and the beat by Hi Tek is really contemplated and I love like the poetry of Mos Def (Yasiin Bey). I had Prince on there, which we're both big Prince fans, I have a lot of jazz that was on there like Archie Shepp, big Tom Waits fan like you were talking about. So I had stuff from nighthawks at the diner, which was, you know, kind of a play into our newest album Nighthawks at McCoys, Stevie Wonder is one of the greatest of all time, I just love, everything Stevie does, going back to the hospital when I worked there, Frankie Beverly and The Maze of a co worker taught me about them in the song Joy & Pain ties in so much into this. And then the Priests, I really love the Priests and their music in Earth, Wind and Fire, one of the members from Earth Wind and Fire's from Denver. I am a big Frank Ocean fan as well. New wave, so Joy Division, and I probably end up putting a New Order or someone else on there if we kept going with this playlist.

carla 1:56:08

Well, I did 13 so you can add a couple more. I'm so excited to share this list. I'm gonna start with the couple that like we're in that we got booted out of the top seven which is Sun Ra, Blue Soul, So I mean, I just, I don't know, I feel like I'm from another planet most of the time, so I really relate to Sun Ra's stuff and, and really get lost in it. And then Sinead O'Connor really, really important. I mean, her and Tracy Chapman, you know, are my political educators. Oh the song that I kicked off right away was for the one that Zach told me to do nature boy, but This is for Life from Luka Bloom. I don't know if you know his stuff, but he's Irish. Just an incredible singer, singer songwriter, and it's really about a song during the troubles where a man or woman fall in love and he gets put in prison because he kills somebody. But they stay together despite it all and it's all about time and how he can't actually watch the moon because he's in jail and it's really really sad but there's like a beauty about it that they commit to life together their love their love is going to transcend this physical distance. Yeah, so and Prince, of course, it was really hard to pick a Prince song. I was really wanting to do something from his early stuff that Purple Rain is the one that had to be and then The Cure. Aw, man, I probably listened to Cure like three times a week because it's a dance. It's not you know, it is melancholy Joy to the max because it has the beat to dance. But the songs are so sad. Sigur Ros is another, all of it. It's my every time I go on a flight. I listened to Sigur Ros. I love it. The Police's like circa you know, teenager, I just felt completely lonely. It's from their first or maybe their second. I thought it's from the first album. And then I have a couple jazz stuff on there to Steal my Joy from Lee Williams. Do you know that song? So good

chris 1:58:09

No, no.

carla 1:58:11

it's about not stealing, It's like don't steal my joy is actually the song

chris 1:58:15

Nice.

carla 1:58:17

Sounds really, really beautiful. And then of course, At Last lost I borrowed from a friend who did a playlist about hope and Rebecca Solnit actually, she had it on there. Because she's you know, sometimes sometimes we have to wait for it. Sometimes there's patience in the fight, in the build. So I thought it was a good one in terms of ending my playlists. Sometimes the Joy has you have to wait a bit.

chris 1:58:45

I love that.

carla 1:58:46

They cover them all. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, Walkabout real quick. I love Atlas Sound. And I really wanted the song on the film I made about the purple thistle and I went through a lot of networks to get it but of course, you know, you're in the business. He didn't he doesn't actually have rights to the song so I ended up not using it but yeah,

chris 1:59:05

on dang. Yeah, I love your extras on here.

carla 1:59:10

Oh my god. I missed Sour Gout. Yeah, that's my kid. It was hard to pick but I picked the one that resonated the most. He's written a couple songs for me. I should probably have done one of them but had a lot of rain in it.

chris 1:59:26

Awesome. All right, carla. Well, I'll talk to you soon. Bye

carla 1:59:30

Bye.

1:59:32

Thank you for tuning into this episode of the time talks podcast part of the channel zero network. Please check out carla bergman work and support their endeavors. Links to carla's works are in the show notes. Please send me an email and tell me some songs you listen to when you're feeling blue, or share a playlist with us. My email is [email protected]. thanks to awareness for the music, share the show around, rate it up and give someone some water. peace.

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