#I deleted Qi Ye because they started new life

[minsarasarahair]

The miserable good looking man and the younger capable one dynamic

(Danmei ships with age gap if that's fine with you. Its not what you think it is. They just developed a crush to someone older than them like a "childhood hero" or they met during the younger one's childhood but the real romance only started when they became fully-fledged adult (20s). This trope interests me because it explore questions like "How will they destroy the power imbalance that are created because of generational gap? Will the relationship even works? How will the dynamic transition from platonic to romantic?")

Sha Po Lang (Stars of Chaos)

➤ML was saved by MC from wolves during his childhood that turned MC into ML's godfather because that's the village's tradition. ML deeply treasure his young blind and deaf useless godfather but turns out this godfather of his is a general in disguise with obligation to protect the prince who's actually the ML. ML is already in early 20s when he confessed his feelings and the MC is at his late 20s. MC show strong resistance against ML's advances at first like he tell him to read sacred texts, and even try to convince the ML that he will get over it soon while ML believe his love will be forever unrequited and fine playing the good godson. Until, MC found out there's a poison implanted to ML that will turn him into mad killing machine who will only experience misfortune in life so to fight against it MC who love ML in platonic way decided he will shamelessly play the lover role so ML know he's loved. The relationship started out of pity and platonic love but MC did eventually fall in love with the adult ML as his lifetime partner.

You Yao (Medicine)

➤MC is a native who pretend as a person from another world and later encountered the beautiful rich older ML who runs a well-known luxurious Best Tower under the Emperor's permission. ML is the real transmigrator from another world. Its a stranger to lovers story between a boy who use the other because of his political influence and a scheming influential figure who use the kid for errand jobs. They are using each other in the beginning since both have their own agenda but its also true that they developed genuine relationship with deep mutual understanding so the presence of each other in their life is their only solace in that twisted world. The story is plot-driven and never romance-driven but its obvious enough that they are a pair or at least they like each other. The novel didn't mentioned their ages but the author gave estimation that its between 18 and someone who's at his late 20s in the main story so we can assume they did become older at the end of the story. In the deleted LouZuo extra, they finally became a couple officially and its after 5 years but they have long distance relationship because of their circumstances. Its sad but at least they love each other that much to be in touch via letters and remained loyal to each other. There's also a reverse isekai extra where they both transmigrated in modern setting so the age gap don't matter more because its a new life. Both of them are working adults there.

Bencao Gu Xu Lu (Touch of a Herbal Petal)

➤MC is a human disciple of a Herbal creature. Basically an immortal plant monster with special abilities. MC hated their kind so he attempted to kill his master, the ML so many times but ML don't see him as a threat so he just adopted him as his disciple. Later, it turns out MC is like a reincarnation of someone important to ML? This is only a manhua and its in hiatus until now but I really love this one. I love the art style and the main CP dynamic so I want to mention it. I have no idea what are their age but an immortal and a human meaning bigger gap.

Ren Zha Fanpai Zijiu Xitong (Scum Villain's Self-Saving System)

➤MC is a pitiful man who leave hate comments to his hated novel at his deathbed and now got isekaid in that same novel he hated in hilarious way possible. Unfortunately, he's in the body of the scum villain who will eventually have a bad ending in the story so to save himself he start giving the ML who's the hero of the book a better treatment without being out of character to fight the system. Because of this, ML developed a love and hate feelings for the MC. He admire the MC like a teacher that he look up to but MC also betrayed him who pushed him down to the ravine so he developed this conflicted feelings for him. Its between someone who hates the other and someone scared who keep running away. It look a very messy situation but it make sense since we have two flawed people, one who want to face the other persistently while the other is too scared to face him lol. But once they face each other and finally talk, its all good. They are cultivators so expect bigger age gap. MC is (body: 40s, soul: 20s) and ML is 14 when they first met but ML is already at his 20s when he entered the romance territory. Its a teacher-student and book anti x favorite character love story.

Liu Yao (Coins of Destiny)

➤MC is from a poor family and sold out to send to become a disciple of a rundown Fuyao sect. There he met his senior brother disciple, the ML who's a spoiled narcissistic lazy rich guy but actually their sect's financial backer. The novel shows the growth of the characters from their childhood to adulthood as they face the harsh turn of destiny while trying to save their family-like sect. MC died in some point and it made ML realized that he need to do his responsibility seriously as the eldest disciple. ML only realized his feelings after MC's death and when they become older. MC was resurrected tho so all is good.

Tian Guan Ci Fu (Heaven Official's Blessing)

➤MC is a god but don't look like one because of many times he descended from heaven. He collect scraps and stay in rundown temple because he don't have many believers. In actuality, ML is a a very devoted believer of his and also his secret admirer even before MC became a god. ML start to look up to him when MC saved his child self before MC first ascended to heaven. ML continue to follow him even after his human life ended and he's now a ghost king feared by others. Its a very romantic tale between a poor god and a rich ghost king. It gives you similar feeling when you read a mythology about gods. They are not humans anymore who already live a long time so age obviously is just a number to them.

Mozun Ye Xiang Zhidao (The Devil Venerable Also Wants To Know)

➤MC is a powerful ruthless sect leader of demonic cultivators who's been cultivating when the Abuse Romance book fell in his hands. He read it out of interest and find out he's one of the character of the book. What bugs him the most in the story is he fell in love with the Mary Sue heroine in the book and his left protector, his ML gone insane because of his death. He was never interested in romance so he find it weird to see this version of himself. He then try his best to avoid this ending to save himself. Because of this, he start to care more about the people close to him especially the ML who's unwavering loyal to him. Later, he found out ML is secretly in love with him. Again, they are immortal cultivators. I don't exactly remember their ages but they met each other as humans when MC is still a general and ML is a kid who look up to MC like TGCF.

Erha He Ta De Bai Mao Shizun (The Dumb Husky & His White Cat Shizun)

➤MC is a ruthless emperor of cultivation world who committed many crimes and hated his Shizun, the ML deeply. After his death, he transmigrated to his younger self and thanks to that he see his Shizun in different light. Also, turns out MC and ML are not that bad. They just need to communicate to each other. There's an implication that the older one develop feelings for the younger one earlier but the book show that ML is very self-deprecating who don't expect anything in return so he decided to never say it and also he believe the MC don't like him anyway so he only help the MC secretly the same way MC took the flower originally for ML that made him go insane hence why he's a ruthless emperor in his past life. They love sacrificing for each other. Its a teacher-student like SVSSS. Cultivators again, you know the drill.

[geneticcatalyst]

HI YES WELCOME TO MY DOORSTEP ❤️ you are in luck I do still have all my notes on this topic (came very close to deleting them a week or so ago but ofc I didn't haha). I wound up writing a different essay about wants and pressures and agency comparing zzs, hly and jby but that's for later- let's circle back to the beginning. you've mentioned several things here that were in fact big parts of my scribbles from back then so I'm just going to dump the rest of it here for now:

Qi ye era zzs is hard to get a read on, even for the people who consider themselves close to him. He's committed to the bit so good it's become self fulfilling prophecy. The minute we meet zzs he's already hly's loyal shadow and hly has briefly forgotten he's there, which suggests they are extremely familiar and zzs has already stepped into the role he plays by that point!

Ironically I think tyk's rearview mirror is the best way to see the truth of qi ye era and try to figure out what's an act and what's real about this perfectly molded servant of the empire.

I think in part zzs is naturally suited for what he's doing. Someone who didn't already have good control of his emotions or was more interested in personal gain or building their own life wouldn't have been able to do what he did. My take is that he had less to repress than the average person to start with. Some of it is that he's spent so long ignoring his actual desires and personality that he doesn't remember what they are anymore and is just fully out of touch with who he is when he's not being tianchuang head. But after that long it's hard to tell- what's the difference between stuff you aren't interested in and stuff you don't waste time on because it's not important and stuff you can't let yourself be interested in?

So in regards to sex and relationships, these things are just wholly extraneous to the person he's committed to being. He is absolutely justifying it as those things don't serve the cause and are for people who don't have better things to do. And sure, that's valid! But. I think in tyk it mentions zzs having (during qi ye era) considered men as a silly thing that some rich guys do when they're bored even of women. Not an outright perversion, maybe, but kind of an out there pastime for like. Thrill seeking or something. He doesn't seem to have been interested in it and seems mildly surprised to be attracted to a man. Given that he talks about attraction to women, it's common to read him as a bi victim of comp het. As a bi victim of comp het myself, I get it. It's also a really common bl trope (realizing attraction to a new gender). So I was stunned when I finally came across the suggestion that he's demi. I don't know why that didn't occur to me (all the previously stated reasons, duh). But it's like. Wildly obvious in retrospect. It's not just that he's never been attracted to a man like that, he's never been attracted to anyone like that.

If you look at what he's doing in qi ye, it seems like he's going the same places as the rest of the crew, spending time with female entertainers, talking about which girls are the most attractive, etc. (he's not so scandalous about it as jby is, but that's deliberate on jby's part too.) He's one of the guys. Doing bro things. Meeting a social expectation. He's not involved with any women specifically, but i don't think it's out of the question that he's paid for services a few times. There's an argument to be made that it's useful for him to socialize/get information via places like this and I'm sure it really is, but it simultaneously cements his place in his own social circle and is just the typical thing his peers do for fun on the weekends. I think much like jby he uses this 'entertainment' as a distraction, but it's said later that zzs only has one vice and that's alcohol, so clearly any girls are just occasional release and not something he's particularly invested in. So in my opinion he knows what sex (with women) is like and thinks it's not bad but not worth getting too into, the way a lot of people in the capitol seem to!

Now, there's actually no way he hasn't wondered what it's like with men. One of his main character traits is just pure curiosity. He's nosy, he wants to know. And he personally knows at least a few men who are into that so it's not like it's not on his radar. I think he's thought about it and just put it aside as something that's for other people. I think a combination of pride and comp het prevents him from actually experimenting with men at all, he just decides that women are fine and someday he'll have to find one he can work with. Even that- the future- is somewhere between really far away and non-existent for, well, at least a few people in the main cast. So settling down or long term relationships are fine to discuss but really not on the table, which is a great excuse for not thinking about them.

I think there's just not really been all that much lost there in terms of sex/desire earlier in zzs' life compared to someone like hly who I think wants those things more and is actively running up against all the obstacles regarding his station and expectations on him. It'd be interesting to see if you somehow un-responsibilitied zzs enough during qi ye what he'd do- maybe have other close friends, maybe have casual love interests- but I'm not sure. I think he genuinely cares more about his goals at that point in his life.

But he's kind of put all his human connection in two baskets, I think, and having lost both of them post qi ye, I think he lost touch with those parts of himself too, only to have them resurface in tyk with zcl, wkx, and gx (ok cwn can come too everyone get in the found family). I think at that point the distractions finally become the goals and can be allowed to take over without the pressures of the capitol and the person he was so committed to being.

[So what do I assume a post capitol zzs with the goal of figuring out how to enjoy life is doing with regard to sex? Everything. Honestly I don't think there's much that's too out there for wenzhou, I think they are like kids in a candy store. Sure they're gonna try some things they end up not liking, but it's not going to stop them. I imagine they're very adventurous. However, I think they and zzs especially is still in the habit or still needs a layer or two of shielding from directly asking for things and negotiations are needlessly complex and bizarrely convoluted but that's just how they have fun. Also given the characterization we have I think that zzs:

-Does often prefer to bottom once he figures out how to retain control over the situation (and then later no longer needs to)

-Enjoys sensation broadly+doesn't have any fear of pain=is a bit of a masochist

-Enjoys proving himself = see above with the additional note: size queen]

i know thats outside of your usual focus but do you have any thoughts on zzs in qiye regarding this? i find his relationship with it in tyk very interesting and ive always wondered what it might look like for qiye. its super difficult to discern because as weve already discussed zzs is narratively treated a lot like a ghost, everything personal from him is either limited to his interaction with ljx or jing qi, and the latter has a huge first life bias

bestie ive been writing myself in circles about this one you're right it's not easy and the lack of being able to see directly means there's a lot of room for personal interpretation and i keep tripping over how my own orientation and experience colors my interpretation. i keep trying to get my business out of there and just talk about what's on the page but there's so little to go on its getting in there anyway which is not what i wanted! are we specifically thinking of pressure and expectations on sex/romance or other things like personality self expression and future plans? im not actually sure i can separate those either this is a mess (points at zzs)