#I am back on with bullshit with the hate for Hades and Persephone retellings

[cosmic-tempest]

I am tired of the Hades and Persephone retellings. It all boils down to the same things with nothing new to add. "This book is a human retelling of Hades and Persephone." Okay, then make Hades and Persephone related, since her father is Zeus. "But gods don't have blood or DNA." Okay, but consider this - Hades is still Persephone's uncle.

Edit: Before people hop on and say anything because sadly people are like this - no, I do NOT condone incest of any type at all. Just because I said "okay, well -" doesn't mean anything.

[alatismeni-theitsa]

Yea there’s a lot of so called “greeks” and/or classics phd claimants in the LO fandom to excuse everything in it despite giving no proof otherwise. I’m not saying there aren’t Greek fans or people with higher education who read it, but it seems the ones who claim to be either (or even both!) seem to love to come to its defense and just make up whatever with fake credentials to justify it as the most perfect thing ever and actually it’s better than the actual Greek poems and hymns. You see this a lot in fandoms where the product just isn’t very good or is full of “toxic positive” fans (see: reylo fandom, marvel fandoms, Sherlock fandom, etc). LO fandom, as opposed to say the Hades Game fandom or Hadestown fandom who don’t cause any drama it seems, can’t and will not accept it’s not an accurate retelling and thus has to make up scholarly sources and scholars to justify it. It’s rather sad in a way. No one cares if you like a trashy romance comic loosely about Greek gods, but the fandom seems to have this insistent need for it to be deeper and more grand than it actually is and attacking others (including Wikipedia! A bunch of fans got banned from there for trying to edit the actual gods’ pages with stuff from LO as fact!) which has created a rather mainstream hatred of the comic itself, mostly created the fans being /that/way and people rightfully getting annoyed with it.

Ooooh yes I have a lot to discuss here so prepare yourselves xD

The Disclaimer

For starters, let me repeat, I and anon don’t have a problem with people who enjoy LO in general. We have a problem with those who claim it’s “the most perfect thing ever and actually it’s better than the actual Greek poems and hymns”, as anon said. And a big chunk of the audience is twenty-somethings and the creator herself is forty years old, so they had more knowledge and time for research.

The Doctors

I usually believe what people tell me and show me but I have seen people saying inexcusably stupid shit while supposedly having a “Classics PhD” so many times I am starting to think “this person is full of bs”. First of all, in my opinion, if you are closed to arguments and theories all the time, you are not an academic. If you have such a high degree and you can’t see why LO isn’t accurate, then you are not an academic. OR you are a very bad academic who only learned how to parrot stuff and has lost touch with what context means.

OR you are an academic who ignores interrelatedness between different fields. Perhaps you are a sociologist thinking “wow! see that Persephone isn’t abducted now? This is definitely a good work for our modern society” while closing your ears to the archeologists and classics professors (and to Greeks and Italians outside the field, when they can recognize some errors). And this leads us to the next section:

The Greeks

I can’t speak for the Italians and since most of the claimants say they are Greeks, let’s focus on them. As I mentioned before, I can’t scream “bullshit” that easily and I am inclined to believe many are indeed Greek. However, just being Greek or having a Greek heritage doesn’t mean that you know everything or that you can make a good analysis.

I’ve heard adult Greeks say “Zeus is a dick” because their exposure to the god was very superficial. I’ve heard adult Greeks parrot the “Persephone went down on the Underworld on her own” version. For a long time, I thought the Aethiopia of our ancients was the modern country of Ethiopia.

And if you enjoy LO and you are Greek, that doesn't mean it’s accurate. (And ofc you can recognize it’s not accurate and has its faults and still read it). Most Greeks enjoyed the Percy Jackson movies very much when they came out. I enjoyed the books when I read them. Does that mean they are accurate and have any Greek elements there? Nope.

In fact, Greeks are so used to being excluded when it comes to the Greek pantheon, they don't even notice it. If you think I or anyone else Greek in Greece was looking for representation when they consumed PJ media, you’ll be wrong. Perhaps there were some, but I never heard any Greek in the country say it.

You have to actively try and get out of a certain mindset in order to connect your heritage to those gods in the blockbusters. And many people don't do it because they don't have the time or because it hurts to discover how inaccurate everything is and how nobody gives a shit as long as everything looks aesthetically pleasing to the West.

And last, but not least, having a Greek heritage doesn't mean you know a lot about it. As Greeks in Greece don’t know a lot of things, so many Greeks of diaspora don’t know a lot. Sometimes they know even less, because of their special circumstances (assimilation, cut from one part of the family, Greek family members dying etc).

This isn't to shame people who happen to have little information about their heritage but those who don't have information and still want to play the heritage card. Heck, I can’t even play the heritage card. The heritage card rarely works alone because there are always academics who know more. But you can use your “experience in a culture” card and if this happens to overlap with your heritage, that’s great. For example, a Norse person having eaten baklava full of syrup can tell you NOT TO PLACE IT ON A NAPKIN, SMYTHE

The toxic part of LO Fandom

Some of you may have seen how I didn't like part of the design of the gods in the Hades game. Since many people liked the game and I didn't like that specific thing, I expected lots of hate in my asks or, at least, some arguments. Strangely enough, I got nothing.

There was one person who suggested I played the game despite this flaw and I though “I can’t believe it! Nuance! A Tumblr user accepted you can not like one thing and like another! And they approached me KINDLY!!” But it wasn't just that person, it was the whole fandom it seems. As you said, it's more level-headed and they know it’s a game (which is still a work of art, but not, like, Homeric Epic worthy).

While a part of the LO fandom is like: “A bunch of fans got banned from there for trying to edit the actual gods’ pages with stuff from LO as fact!” Which I hadn't heard and I want to unlearn immediately.

This was posted by a fan of LO in the Lore Olympus Reddit, and the overwhelming majority agreed. I think those who changed the wiki did it just for fun, I refuse to believe they actually thought LO is “canon” 😩

And we also have those people who mean well but they don't understand how culture works.

I am sorry but an Australian woman who doesn't even worship the Hellenic gods and just writes a webtoon with 2 Greek elements in it, is not the continuation of our traditions. 

(tell me if I need to blur the names. I don’t know if it’s a bad practice or not. In any case, don't send hate to those people)

Others use the phrase “nothing is canon in Greek mythology” as an excuse to fuck shit up. “Well, we haven't seen anywhere that Apollo DIDN’T rape Persephone, so we can very well believe he did”.

And others who, because they see the gods in a modern setting, try to apply modern and human morality to their ancient myths, deeming them “problematic”.

As the Hellenic phrase goes “from where to catch it and from where to leave it?!?!”  😂😂😂 Meaning in whatever place you touch something - aka the toxic part of the fandom - you will find different bad things, and even when you leave those bad things off your hands, it’s as bad as touching the bad things. Think of it like moving sand where you are doomed while touching it and not touching it.

All my brain juices went to writing this “sheet” of text (here we go, back to Greek xD) and I don’t have any for the epilogue. Imagine one yourselves.

[bronson]

What is wrong with lore/olympus?

so I got four anon asks about this in the past hour so I’ll just answer in one big post. also this is going to be long because I don’t feel like giving generalized blanket statements bc I actually want y’all to understand.

1. “what’s LoreOlympus?”

LoreOlympus is a webtoon based comic that revolves around the lives of the gods of the Greek pantheon, specifically Persephone and Hades. it’s set in the “modern” world with a few adjustments. it’s gorgeously illustrated, so it’s very intriguing and inticing to read. a few different Greek myths play out in the story (or are told), like the Cupid and Psyche myth, but the main myth is the Persephone/Hades ordeal......

2. “what’s wrong with it?”

the fact that it romanticizes the Persephone/Hades story. the Persephone story (specifically a myth revolving around her) has become an entire phenomenon online recently. young women (mainly) have begun identifying with the goddess for a variety of reasons, and many have begun creating NEW STORIES to justify this obsession. on the surface this is fine! why not love a Greek goddess? Greek goddesses are cool! the aesthetics are pretty! we all love Rick Riordan! but when you dig into it, there’s an underlying problem with this form of obsession.

Greek myths have always been a part of our pop culture. but often we don’t analyze the underlying stories of the myths. sure we talk about how Zeus is a dick to Hera, but we don’t talk about why Hera even exists. what the gods/goddesses actually represent, more than just their surface deity existence.

so take Persephone. sure you could say she’s the goddess of spring in a sense. she’s the daughter of Demeter. what else is she? the personification of a young girl. the same way Demeter is the Mother, Persephone is the Daughter. she was also known as Kore (directly translated: young girl) and what else were known as Kores? grave statues for girls who died before marriage. persephone is intended to be the embodiment of all young women stolen before maturement/being able to married off. one of the more famous statues’ inscriptions can be translated as “given this [being named Kore] instead of marriage by the gods.” so who is hades? he’s the god of death yes. the god of rebirth some might say in a sense. he also acts as an explanation of stolen brides. in Ancient Greece and now but whatever, young girls were often stolen by older men (sometimes related to them) to be married off. even more common was the simple handing off of young girls to older men/relatives as wives to create bonds within the family/carry on bloodlines, create children, etc.

so the Hades/Persephone myth exists not only as an explanation of the seasons of harvest, but also a cultural explanation of the lives/forceful marriages of young women/girls.

so that’s the ancient cultural context. now for our context. young women today, yesterday, since the beginning of time, have had no power. simply stated. they don’t. but who does? older men. so who do women turn to when they need power or when they feel powerless? older men! it only makes sense. and men know this, so when they feel like they need an ego boost or to hold power over someone, they turn to younger women. this is so widely accepted in our modern culture that we create falsities to justify it, like “girls mature faster than boys, so women seek out older men to meet their intellect.” and we have THOUSANDS of our own mythology backing this story of young woman + older man=love. books, movies, tv shows, anecdotes, famous people we idolize. so this story, a young girl who’s “seduced” by an older man, seems enticing!

but is that the story of Persephone and Hades? of course not. in what world would Ancient Greece give that much power to a 12 year old girl. Artemis barely had any power and she was a way more important deity. (that’s the other thing, Persephone ain’t shit but whatever). Persephone has no agency in “her” myth. the myth’s most famous form is in the Hymn to Demeter, where Persephone says one (1) thing and it’s her talking about how violent Hades was in forcing the pomegranate seeds into her mouth. (the story is Demeter’s, but we don’t care about older women or we hate them, so she’s been demonized in our modern retellings.) Persephone is not a powerful girl who runs away, she is stolen by her old uncle, r*ped, and forced into a marriage. after that’s her role, she does become the queen of the underworld in a sense, and she does gain agency in myths about her queendom, but the initial marriage to Hades? not of her own accord by any means. how could it be?

so of course I’m torn. I know why young women need these stories. I even like some of these stories—hello ACOMAF! hello Fifty Shades! hello Twilight! but am I okay with the fact that we keep sanitizing and romanticizing this original story? no! because a) if we keep romanticizing these Greek myths, we will never escape the racist and classist hold they have over us and b) we can’t keep perpetuating our own oppression. we can’t keep stripping away context from stories that shape our culture. we can’t ignore what this myth (and others like it) have done to young women and their psyches.

so stop reading it. stop reblogging those bullshit posts saying Persephone chose to eat the seeds. she didn’t and she deserves better.

also if you want to debate with me on this, just know I studied classics and media communications, and wrote my thesis on this topic. and I’m sick of it.