#George Lucas has said multiple times there's a difference between love and attachment

[ringwraithmd]

had some convos tonight im a little buzzed but here are my takeaways. these might start some fires.

somehow they person I talked with is both Anakin apologist and Anakin critical. Idk how they have that exist at the same time, but I'd like to say this to him: the Jedi were victims, the Jedi were not evil, no Obi-Wan isn't evil, Obi-Wan didn't repress and abuse Anakin, no Qui-Gon Jinn was not the bestest Jedi who did things differently than any other Jedi and if only he lived he would've saved Anakin Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker did not fall because he was sleep deprived and had one bad day, he fell for a number of reasons, including that he made choices, which choice as a theme is something George Lucas very deliberately has chosen to emphasize repeatedly in Star Wars. Also, Jyn Erso is an actually interesting character and I think she does care about rebelling, the problem is the repressive totalitarian regime she lives in. It's understandable she'd be a little cynical and despondent after 20 years of Empire. TLJ is not the best sequel trilogy movie, Kylo Ren's a little bitch and should've died sooner. Dave Filoni can kiss my ass. "within the context of the prequels it's hard to see the jedi as the good guys --" no. absolutely not. get some reading comprehension you moron. that's the whole point. the whole point is the jedi were the victims of a plot designed to force them into a position where all they had were bad choices. Anakin chose to murder men, women, and children long before he ever became Darth Vader which is a fact so many people seem to gloss over. "they killed his mother -" and?? he didn't just kill her torturers, he killed children, too. your boy committed massacres and genocides in canon. im not talking about legends or any recent books in comics, but solely about the movies. I get still liking him as a character, but to say that Anakin has done nothing wrong is a take that I just can't understand.

folk music is different than country music. im sorry but it is. yes there are similarities. no I can't explain the differences. but country music is not necessarily folk music, or "stomp-clap" music as you called it. tell me you don't listen to country without telling me. arguably the best argument you could've made about the push back of country music pop-ification is the rise in popularity of artists like Zach Bryan, but you didn't, you started talking about fucking Mumford & Sons. my good dude. no. google them. they're literally described as a folk rock band.

edited 6/23 bc I realized I was drunker then i thought and this was semi-incoherent. hopefully that clarifies things.

[sirikenobi12]

Dear Mr. Filoni: About Qui-Gon Jinn

Mr. Filoni, I know you are pretty much the undisputed Padawan of George Lucas, but like many students they can sometimes misunderstand their teachings or interpret things from a certain point of view. While I won’t deny you are a brilliant creator who have brought us some amazing Star Wars content you said something a little while back about Qui-Gon Jinn that I think is rather nearsighted and in my opinion incorrect.

“And with the death of Qui-Gon Jinn, Anakin loses the father figure who truly could have understood him – and maybe prevented what was to come.”

This implies several things, the first is that Anakin never had a father figure in his life. Or, rather that he lost the father figure he truly needed. In many ways this is implying that if someone grows up without a father (or a traditional father figure) then they are missing out or won’t have a stable childhood. What about all the people who are raised by single mothers or grandparents or aunts/uncles or by their older siblings? 

Pixar’s Onward is a great example of finding a father figure through an older brother, it highlights that just because Ian never had a chance to meet his father didn’t mean that he lost out on a father figure in his brother Barley. 

“I never had a dad, but I always had you.”

Saying that Anakin lost the father figure who truly could have understood him also just spits in the face of a young man who also lost his father figure in that moment and gave up everything to raise Anakin. 

Let’s unpack that a little bit. Imagine if you will you’re twenty-five years old, you’ve worked your ENTIRE life for a particular goal which is to be a Jedi Knight, traveling the galaxy doing the most good that you can while discovering who you are on your own. Then maybe down the road when you are ready to settle down and possibly train/raise an apprentice you’ll take one on. Suddenly the only father you’ve ever known pushes you aside for a child he’s just met (without even discussing it with you first) and then uses his last words to push this child on you, making him your responsibility, thus shattering your chance at the freedom of a true Knighthood. 

By all rights Obi-Wan could’ve given Anakin’s training over to the Council, the boy was in no way his responsibility. Much like an adult sibling doesn’t have to take on the responsibility of raising their minor siblings if their parents die, they could give the children over to the state and have a chance at a normal young adulthood instead of being thrust into being a parent before they are ready. But, Obi-Wan didn’t do that because he A.) Respected/loved Qui-Gon too much not to fulfill his final wishes, and B.) Knew it would be better for Anakin to take the boy under his wing. 

I will say this until I am blue in the face: OBI-WAN WAS A FATHER TO ANAKIN!! 

In fact, in Episode 2 Anakin refers to him as a father/father figure multiple times and it is clear their relationship while Anakin was a Padawan was that of a Father/Son. It isn’t until Anakin is knighted and they are peers that you see their relationship shift to that of brothers.  

Am I saying that Obi-Wan didn’t make mistakes when raising Anakin? Absolutely not, but would I argue that Anakin was missing out on a father figure because Qui-Gon died? No, I would not. 

The second part of that quote claims that Qui-Gon Jinn could’ve been someone who understood Anakin and might’ve been able to prevent what was to come. I 100% believe that would not have happened, while I think Qui-Gon Jinn is a very interesting character there is no indication in either canon or legends that he would’ve been a good influence on Anakin. In fact, quite the opposite. Here are the top ten reasons Qui-Gon would’ve been a terrible father influence for Anakin: 

1. Qui-Gon Jinn thinks the rules don’t apply to him: While many fans applaud Qui-Gon (including apparently you, Mr. Filoni) for going against the Jedi Council and being a “Maverick” I would argue that more often than not it was to his or his mission’s detriment. This is not to advocate that the Council was 100% correct or that Jedi shouldn’t question things, but there is a difference between questioning authority figures and flat out being obstinate. This is something Anakin excels at even with being raised by the rule abiding Kenobi, imagine how bad it would’ve been had Jinn raised him.

2. Qui-Gon Jinn was selfish: There are several examples of Qui-Gon using the guise of “the will of the Force” in order to get his way. Are we honestly supposed to believe that somehow this one man was more in tune with the Force than any other Jedi (including 12 powerful Jedi who were on the Council)?? And, if he truly believed in following the will of the Force then why did he constantly bend the rules to make sure the “Force” went his way - an example of this is had he actually believed it was the will of the Force that he free Anakin, he wouldn’t have had to make the chance cube go the way he wanted it to go. He flat out cheated so he could get his way.  

3. Qui-Gon was dangerously reckless: Many Jedi are reckless, even Obi-Wan said to Yoda in ESB “so was I if you’ll remember”. But Qui-Gon was reckless in ways that was pretty astounding. For example, EVERYONE told him that his plan to get off of Tatooine was dangerous and frankly stupid. Couldn’t they have just sold the Naboo ship and then purchased a clunker that would get them to Coruscant? Honestly, that would’ve probably hidden them better from the Trade Federation in the long run...but no, he instead decided the best course of action was to put a slave child in mortal danger, thus also placing all of their lives in the hands of a boy who had NEVER won a race before. Now, it ended up working in his favor, but even still those few days spent fixing up Anakin’s pod and then the race itself delayed the Queen from getting to Coruscant which meant more people died on Naboo all because Qui-Gon refused to see any other solutions. 

4. Qui-Gon was often a bully: our Maverick had no problems throwing his weight around to get what he wanted. The Council meeting with Anakin is a perfect example, he didn’t get the answer he wanted. So he put his hands on his hips and refused to leave the room until the Council caved to his demands. Another example of this is in Claudia Grey’s Master & Apprentice where he refuses to do his duty as a Jedi and fulfill the mission simply because he had a vision. He doesn’t discuss this with the Council or with Obi-Wan beforehand, he just decides for himself this is how it’s going to be and then throws a hissy-fit when he doesn't get his way. Or how about he is the one who cheated to get his way in winning Anakin and when Watto calls him out he threatens to get the Hutts involved? He just bullies his way to getting what he wanted.

  5. Qui-Gon never saw the bigger picture: Master Jinn’s whole thing is to focus on the here and the now, and while that’s great advice (especially for Obi-Wan who often looks too far a head) it also means that Qui-Gon often misses the big picture. An example of this is in the book Master & Apprentice where he wants to free the slaves on Pijal’s moon, but Yoda has to remind him that there is a bigger picture and they can only act if it’s in their mandate. He says this not because the Council doesn’t want to free slaves, but because there are incredibly complex consequences and if they were to just do whatever they wanted/could do as Jedi it would cause all kinds of issues for others and while he could maybe free a handful of slaves now it would cause countless others to suffer in the long run. But, Qui-Gon wouldn’t accept this, because he refused to see the bigger picture - he refused to look at anything except what was right in front of him.

6. Qui-Gon has a history of failing his Apprentices: Now, I know this isn’t Canon at the moment, but by the time we make it to TPM Qui-Gon has already done severe damage to 2 former Padawans, and is in danger of having history repeat itself. Xanatos was his second Apprentice right before Obi-Wan, and this Padawan was extremely powerful and Qui-Gon insisted he be trained, but the boy fell to the darkside because he had been too old to start training and had a healthy attachment to his family (sound familiar?). Qui-Gon was so devastated by his fall that he went back and reputed his first apprentice, Feemor, claiming he was such a failure of a Master that there is no way his first apprentice should’ve been knighted. He basically in his grief pushed aside an apprentice who while on paper wasn’t anything special, but was kind and dutiful and a true Jedi (sound familiar?). He then begrudgingly takes on Obi-Wan (only after 12 year old Obi-Wan offers to kill himself to save others) and then time and time again tries to basically pawn off Obi-Wan onto someone else (even as far into their relationship as the Master & Apprentice book). Then, when it finally looks like the Kenobi/Jinn team have figured out how to work well together Qui-Gon has to literally be reminded that his Obi-Wan even exists because Qui-Gon is so blinded by Anakin’s power!! How in any way does this seem like a better father figure option for the emotionally needy Anakin?

7. Qui-Gon Jinn has a history of Attachments: The specific example I have is again from Legends, but it shows how Qui-Gon allowed attachments to become dangerous. He had a childhood friend who he fell in love with, they decided that they could handle being committed to each other as well as the Order so they “pledged themselves” to one another (my guess is basically this is like a Jedi marriage so to speak). Sounds beautiful right, and it is, but...But his love interest Tahl was injured on a war torn planet where the children are so sick of their parents' civil war that they form a third army and go to war against the adults. Tahl is caught in the middle of this and is gravely injured. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are sent to rescue her, and Obi-Wan is sickened by the sight of children fighting and wants to stay and help, but Qui-Gon is so blinded by his attachment for Tahl that he for the first time EVER actually follows his mandate and tells Obi-Wan that they weren’t sent there to help the children, but to rescue Tahl. Obi-Wan who is only 13 doesn’t understand so instead of taking the time to really explain it, Qui-Gon just LEAVES his young apprentice behind on a war torn planet. Now, I’ll admit that Qui-Gon did give Obi-Wan a choice, to come back to Coruscant or to stay and fight, thus leaving the Jedi Order and Obi-Wan did make the choice to stay. But, it was Qui-Gon’s responsibility as the teacher to fully explain the situation to Obi-Wan and let him know that they could do more good if they were to go back to the Council and the Senate and try to return with supplies and reinforcements. But no, Qui-Gon just yelled at him, disregarded his feelings and told him their mission was to rescue Tahl. He didn’t bother using this as a teaching moment for Obi-Wan because he was so concerned about his attachment. And then later when Tahl actually died, Qui-Gon nearly fell to the dark side and it was Obi-Wan who saved him.  And then Qui-Gon went on to decide that because of the pain that had been inflicted by losing Tahl he’d basically give Obi-Wan an ultimatum when it came to the woman he loved (and basically downplayed it as nothing but a crush). Now, say what you want about how Obi-Wan handled Anakin/Padme’s relationship - maybe pretending it wasn’t happening instead of confronting Anakin about it wasn’t a healthy/smart choice, but at least he didn’t downplay it and make it look like Anakin’s feelings weren’t real or valid.

8. Qui-Gon refused to apologize: There are several examples where Qui-Gon refuses to accept any responsibilities and won’t apologize. One such point is in TPM where he basically traded his current Padawan in for a newer/shinier model in front of the entire Council (which if this alone isn’t enough cause to prove the man wasn’t the best father figure…) he then refused to even approach Obi-Wan about it, in fact the twenty five year old Apprentice who had just been tossed aside for a supposed prophecy came and apologized to Qui-Gon!! Another example is back in the Jedi Apprentice books where Qui-Gon leaves Obi-Wan on the war torn planet (as mentioned in #7) it is up to Obi-Wan to make it up to Qui-Gon and prove his worth once again. I’m not certain given Anakin’s tendency to need constant affirmations that this would’ve been a good combination.

9. Qui-Gon was manipulative: Oftentimes we see Qui-Gon manipulating people to get his way (I’m not talking about Jedi Mind Tricks). In TPM he manipulates Watto to win Anakin’s freedom, he even manipulates Obi-Wan into taking on the burden of training Anakin by making it his dying wish. He is not above manipulation if he gets his desired result. We see Anakin does the same thing, so one could argue Qui-Gon would’ve only encouraged this behavior.

10. Qui-Gon cared more about the prophecy than the boy: I’m not saying that Qui-Gon didn’t care about people, or even Anakin, in fact he was a very compassionate character. But, all of his arguments to have Anakin be trained was that he is “the Chosen One” not once does he talk about how the boy needs training simply because it’d be dangerous to leave such raw power alone in the galaxy without training, or that it would be the right thing to do. He doesn’t ever talk about how learning to be a Jedi would actually benefit the boy. Every single time he brings up Anakin needing training is because of the prophecy. Now, as far as it looks in both canon and legends Obi-Wan tried incredibly hard to not bring up the prophecy to Anakin (except on Mustafar), Obi-Wan would bring it up to Mace/Yoda but that was about it. Obi-Wan wasn’t blinded by the prophecy because until ROTS it didn’t really appear that he even believed in it - he believed in Anakin for who he was as a person. Something we just didn’t see with Qui-Gon.

Now, Qui-Gon has a lot of great qualities, I am not denying that, but to say that he would’ve been the father figure Anakin needed is just misguided. If you believe in the idea that there is a will of the Force one could argue that Obi-Wan training Anakin was that will, otherwise Qui-Gon wouldn’t have died. 

Also, Mr. Filoni, why is it that Anakin supposedly suffered because he didn’t have a father figure yet you turned around and gave Ahsoka a brother, not a father? Are you suggesting Ahsoka suffered as well because she didn’t have a father figure? Or, was Obi-Wan by this time finally “old” enough to be considered a father figure? 

This idea that Qui-Gon Jinn would’ve been the fix it to Anakin’s issues is just silly and once again places the blame of the Jedi’s destruction in the hands of the Council and specifically Obi-Wan, thus not forcing Anakin to be held responsible for any of his actions. 

I’m sorry, but it’s not a theory I buy due to a lack of evidence. 

[padawanlost]

Hey there! First of all I wanna say that I love your blog 😊

If I may, I wanted to ask you something regarding the Jedi Code. What did it say exactly about love and family? From my understanding, they were forbidden to form attachments, yet one Jedi (can't remember the name) married and had several kids. So, as long as there was no love or risk of attachment, they could marry and/or have kids?

I'm so confused

Before anything else is said, we need some context. The Jedi Order is over 25000 years old, which means a lot of things changed over the years. what’s really important to keep in mind is that theirs rules were no set in stone. There’re multiple variations of the “Jedi Code”. Also, not every rule the Jedi had to live by were part of the Jedi Code. Some rules were more about tradition than the code itself. Because of that every generation of the Order has its own particularities. That’s why the Prequels Order was different from the Old Republic’s Order and that was different from New Republic’s Order.

With that out of the way, let’s talk about the prequel era Jedi.

1 – Jedi were NOT allowed to marry or reproduce (without the Council’s authorization):

“If anyone finds out that I’m expecting a child, I’ll be thrown out of the Jedi Order and I won’t be able to serve. I have to carry on. I can’t let the men down.” Skirata was furious. She felt it. She could see it, too. And if she thought that was bad, it would be nothing compared with how the Jedi Council would react. She’d be kicked out of the Order. She’d no longer be a general, no longer able to play her part in the war. [Karen Traviss’s Triple Zero]

2 – Jedi were allowed to have sex, but they were not allowed to have romantic relationships or to have any kind of emotional attachments to their sexual partners.

“Jedi Knights aren’t celibate. The thing that is forbidden is attachments and possessive relationships.” George Lucas.

“But ol’ Pellaeon’s just having a spot of romance, if you know what I mean. It’s not like he gets attached to any of them, is it? Is romance allowed? Can you have a spot of romance if you don’t get attached?” Ahsoka’s stripes became more vividly colored, embarrassed. Yes, she obviously did know what Coric meant by romance. It wasn’t the word he usually used for it, but Ahsoka was only a kid, and Rex had decided from the start that talking about that sort of thing was something best left to her Jedi Masters. Yes, General Skywalker, I think that’s a job for you, sir. It wasn’t a clone’s duty at all. “Romance,” Ahsoka said stiffly, “is acceptable. Jedi are not … celibate. Just … no attachment.” [No prisoners. Karen Traviss]

He felt his fingers fist. Don’t you lie. Not about this. Don’t you dare.  “You love her.” Monotonous blasterfire filled the silence between them. Then Obi-Wan nodded. “Yes, Anakin, I love her. But I was never in love. For a short while Taria and I needed each other. And when we no longer needed each other, we parted—and remained friends.” So that was how it worked, was it? Stay aloof, stay detached, never let yourself feel too much, too deeply, and the Order didn’t care? So if Padmé and I pretended we weren’t in love … [Karen Miller’s Star Wars: Clone Wars Gambit: Siege]

3 – Jedi were not allowed to have contact with their biological families;

“After the Jedi Masters decided that it was too dangerous to train anyone familiar with fear, anger, and any other emotion that might lead to the dark side, it was agreed that Force-sensitive juveniles, adolescents, and adults would no longer be eligible for enlistment or conscription. Instead, they sought out and adopted Force-sensitive infants who would be raised and trained at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant; to prevent any emotional attachments that might cloud judgment, most recruits would never have any subsequent contact with their families.” [ Ryder’s Windham’s Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force]

The entire baby Ludi case

Still no word from the Jedi Council about what happened at the Battle of Naboo. Watto is beside himself with fury, complaining that if I can spend a hundred credits to send a message, then the Jedi can spend a hundred credits to answer. It worries me that it’s taking them so long. Three days should be long enough to figure out whether you were at Naboo, and whether you’re still alive. […] Shmi seemed to believe that Watto genuinely missed the boy. Leia had trouble accepting this, but was forced to at least allow for the possibility when Shmi reported that Watto had actually made a gift to her of the ten credits she had borrowed to help pay for her message to the Jedi Council. […] An administrator on Coruscant had finally replied to Shmi’s ’Net message: Anakin was well, but the Jedi did not discuss the activities of their Padawans even with parents. Even that was enough to elate Shmi. [ Tatooine Ghost by Troy Denning]

4 - The love they were allowed to experience was nothing like how we experience love in real life:

Who wept their tears on the inside, where they would not be seen. To weep for a fallen comrade was to display unseemly attachment. A Jedi did not become attached to people, to things, to places, to any world or its inhabitants. A Jedi’s strength was fed by serenity. By distance. By loving impersonally. [Karen Miller. Wild Space]

It was impersonal. It wasn’t like loving your family or your friends. It was more compassion, than love (the kind of love that connects you to someone on a emotional level).

Instead, they sought out and adopted Force-sensitive infants who would be raised and trained at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant; to prevent any emotional attachments that might cloud judgment, most recruits would never have any subsequent contact with their families. [Ryder’s Windham’s Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force]

“Not that Luminara is indifferent, but that Luminara is detached. It’s not that she doesn’t care, but she’s not attached to her emotionally. And at the end of the day, one of the questions that I guess I pose is, is that really a good thing? Is Anakin’s way of being so compassionate wrong? Because on a certain level, you have to accept that the Jedi lose the Clone War. So there is something that they’re doing that’s wrong.” Dave Filoni

Nobody asked the obvious—whether clone troopers were everyone else or not. Joc looked from Ahsoka to Rex and back again. “What’s wrong with attachment?” he asked. “Why can’t you have attachments? You mean love, right?” Ahsoka looked at the clones wide-eyed but in slight defocus, as if she was trying to recall something. “Love is acceptable,” she said at last. “But not attachment.” “What’s love if it isn’t attachment?” “Attachment is … putting personal relationships first, caring about the people you love so that it influences how you act.” Ahsoka seemed to be picking her words carefully. Coric stared back at her. “You know, it affects your judgment.” [ No prisoners by Karen Traviss]

5 - The exceptions:

There were some exception to these rules, most of them happening during a different time (Old and New Republic Eras). However, there’s one notable exception all the rules above during the prequels: Ki-Adi-Mundi. Unlike most Jedi he was allowed to marry multiple wives and have multiple children and still remain a jedi. They allowed it because he belonged to an endangered species, so him being in a polygamous relationship was part of the greater good. Fun fact, he was emotionally attachment to some members of his biological family.

[gffa]

anteoli replied to this lengthy-by-now post (re: Gray Jedi and what that means):

grey Jedi being a different faction of Jedi makes more sense than half dark and half light imo. I actually like that idea a lot! it has potential

I think, in this case, my issue is more with the terminology, rather than that any kind of splinter group or different faction is inherently a bad thing! The GFFA already has an established array of other cultures that use the Force in different ways from the Jedi, such as:

the Bardottans, who are very light-side attuned, using it passively for wisdom and connection

the Guardians of the Whills seem to at least worship the Force, though, we don’t know if they were Force-sensitive or not (Chirrut wasn’t), though they were said to have “evolved in parallel with the Jedi” and we can see they share mantras, as Jocasta uses “I am one with the Force, the Force is with me.” in Dark Lord of the Sith.

the Lasats seem to be using the Force when we see them in Rebels--as well as it’s during “The Legends of the Lasat” Rebels Recon where LF talks about:        PABLO HIDALGO:  “The one thing that comes through–and it’s a theme we’re exploring in multiple stories and multiple places–is that spirituality and what you can label The Force is not something that the Jedi and the Sith have exclusive access to.  You can have a culture like the Lasat who have a spirituality to them, who have a very strong focus and are able to do things that appear mystical and magical.  That’s their expression and connection to the Force.”       HENRY GILROY (co-executive producer):  “A big part of this episode was exploring how different species, different planets, might have a different interpretation, a different understanding of the Force.  But also how they interact with it would be different.” 

Maz Kanata has some form of the Force and has known/gotten along with many Jedi over time

the people of Lew’el, whom Luke visits in Legends of Luke Skywalker, seem to be passive Force users as well

The Nightsisters use the Force via magick, which doesn’t have a ton of worldbuilding/established rules to it, but they’re definitely dark-aligned

Orphne from The Clone Wars was a magick user as well

Bendu is not a mortal creature, so he can exist in the middle ground and stay there (or so says Matt Martin), though, I would argue that he’s not a great influence as he leaves the Rebels high and dry when they really needed his help, that being in the middle is not actually an admirable thing

More groups worshiped the Force (like the Phirmists or the Church of the Force or the First Wavers), so there’s a pretty good variety of non-Jedi/non-Sith Force-influenced cultures out there, but what I suspect may be coming in the High Republic stuff is splinter groups within the Jedi. What form this will take, I’m not sure, but I’m hoping that they won’t call them “Gray Jedi” because that seems to imply a halfway point between the light and the dark sides of the Force which, as discussed, is not a sustainable thing and not without consequence, but instead give them some other term.  Or, you know, that they don’t just blow right past what Matt and Pablo have said about how George Lucas set up the Force and make them middle-grounders with no consequences anyway. But I suspect splinter groups may be at least in the background of the High Republic, which could be potentially interesting, but could also be really awful, especially if we get “well WE’RE Jedi who say you can get married because love and attachments are good actually” when the Jedi don’t seem to define attachment as love, but instead that it’s always been associated with the act of letting your emotions cloud your judgement where people get hurt, where it’s putting your own feelings for this person over the oath you swore, that it’s been associated with obsession and possession pretty much every time George talks about it re: the Jedi. I’ve long been a fan of “the Jedi definitely have intra-organization philosophical disagreements that they argue about LIKE A BUNCH OF NERDS” idea, so in theory I’m down for this, depending on how it goes!

[sirikenobi12]

Well then, you’re lost! - Jedi Rant

This is in response to someone who posted on one of my other blogs. Apparently there is a character limit on responses on Tumblr, so forgive me - I didn’t want to post this in multiple responses!   I never meant to imply that you condone mass murder, that was not what I was trying to say. My comment was meant to simply bring up the fact that one cannot compare the light side of the Force to being just as corrupt as the dark side – as soon as someone is “corrupt”, they are no longer following the light side of the Force (hence Dooku) which is the point.

You said that you are speaking about the Force in the Star Wars universe, well, that is exactly what I’m talking about as well. You say it is an “Essence” and isn’t “good or bad”, but I am sorry to say that is actually the opposite of what George Lucas has said about the Force. That is why I quoted him, he is the creator of Star Wars and he has the end all/be all authority on this galaxy – because he is the one who created it. George Lucas has REPEATEDLY stated that there cannot be a gray area in the Force, it is either light or dark (good or bad) and ANY darkness throws the Force off balance. In terms of the Force itself, straight from the man who created it there CANNOT be any gray and the light side is inherently good.

Now, let’s also take a look at it from even a moral standpoint and not a fictional standpoint – does anyone ever say “I’m really worried about him because he’s being too good a person”?? (If so, then I’m a little concerned for society). No, but we do worry when someone is acting selfish or letting themselves lose themselves to an obsession.

Now, were the Jedi perfect? No, and I never said they were, but did their “failure” mean they deserved genocide? Absolutely not. To say their order deserved to “fall” (aka be wiped out) that is victim blaming of the highest level. Even IF the Jedi were “corrupt” as people say they are that doesn’t mean they deserved what they received. Also, it does not keep Sheev or Anakin away from blame – two “wrongs” don’t make a right.

By the end of the Republic the Jedi were in a trap created by the Sith, all of the points you brought up (with the exception of “taking children” which I will address later) were perpetrated by the Sith. Sidious designed this trap so the Jedi would be painted in a corner and have no way out. But they still tried their best to do what was right despite all of this. For example, you bring up the use of a clone/slave army – well, what was the alternative? Please, tell me what the alternative was because no one who throws that accusation at the Jedi have an answer and I’d love to hear a legit one. Sidious gave Sifo-Dyas a vision (much like the ones he gave Anakin) which caused him to create an army without the Council’s knowledge or approval – in fact he had gone to the Council first demanding the Jedi create an army and they emphatically said “no” because of the moral implications of it. But, now here they were in the middle of being slaughtered on Geonosis and Yoda brought the army to save them. Then, the Senate (whom the Jedi were beholden to) decided to use the army to fight the Separatist, the Jedi instead of hanging back knew it was their duty to not only defend the people Republic, but also to destroy the Sith (who was in charge of the CIS army) so they joined in. Most of the Jedi ended up treating their men like the sentient beings they were (and were the first ones who did), which was not true of many citizens of the Republic. And had the Jedi NOT taken control of the GAR what do you think would’ve happened to the Clones?? Do you actually think the Kaminoans would’ve let them go free? – no, the Kaminoans are selfish business people and would’ve either destroyed them or more likely sold them into actual slavery.

Now, the Jedi code seemed to work for everyone else EXCEPT Anakin Skywalker, why does no one see that?? Sure, the Jedi were not allowed to get married and have children, it wasn’t because they “weren’t allowed to love” on the contrary they were encouraged to love, you don’t think they didn’t know Anakin loved Padme?? Jedi were trusted to not let it become an attachment because attachments lead to jealousy which lead to anger and given the type of power they possess that is dangerous. They are also committed to the Jedi order, think of it like they are married to the Jedi Order. If they were to go out and get married to someone else there is no way they could give 100% commitment to both the Jedi and their family/spouse. But, they are given the option to leave if they want to choose a family/marriage, is it a difficult choice? Yes of course, but that is an option. Anakin decided he was better than EVERYONE else and lied to the Jedi because he couldn’t give up the power/status that came with being one.

Going back to the Jedi “taking” children that is just the most absurd falsehood I hear going around. It is 100% the parent’s choice to give their child to the Jedi. Being a Jedi is an honor in this galaxy and it brings incredible honor to the family I’d imagine, but the Jedi have NEVER in any canon been shown to put pressure on a parent to give their child up. In fact in the Clone Wars we even see a mother saying “Master Ropal said I have more time with him” to a bounty hunter who was actually there to kidnap the child (for the Sith might I add). This statement means not only that she agreed to let her son be trained, but the Jedi in their compassion gave her more time with her baby. Also keep in mind how difficult raising a Force Sensitive child must be, I can bet that most parents welcome the help/training. And as I mentioned the Jedi ALWAYS have the option of leaving if the Order isn’t for them, it’s not a prison.

I honestly don’t understand why you (or other people) can’t see that the Jedi are good…I am baffled by this trend. Like I said, they are not perfect but no one is – and frankly the Jedi themselves don’t think they are perfect either. In fact contrary to what is usually written in fanfics the Jedi allow/encourage their members to question their rules, they constantly tell one another to “search their feelings” – the love and compassion they have for all beings in the galaxy is truly something more people should aspire to be. I know you said it’s “okay to be selfish” and I am sorry, but I disagree. There is a difference between being selfish and self-care. Selfishness is inherently not a good quality to have, and maybe beyond that it’s actually dangerous for a Jedi (or someone with the Force) to be selfish – that is where the Sith come in. The Sith only think of themselves, that is the definition of selfishness. And when you have extreme powers that are affected by your emotions you need to be more mindful, which is what the Jedi teach.

To believe that the Jedi failed makes me so sad…they didn’t, they were slaughtered - it would be like saying the people of Alderraan deserved to be blown up because there were a few criminals on the planet. If you are going to quote Luke in THE LAST JEDI about the legacy of the Jedi being failure, then you really need to take into context where Luke is in his emotional journey when he says it. He even later admitted he was wrong. – the point of the movie/saga is the Jedi are good and the Sith are evil.

The Jedi and Republic were all “deceived by a lie” and I stand by my post that it looks like Sheev deceived a good chunk of the audience as well.

Thank you for the lively debate, I appreciate hearing your thoughts!! 😊 May the Force be with you!

[padawanlost]

What was your take on Dave Filoni's speech on the Duel of Fates & Qui-Got Jinn?

I’m surprised people were shocked by that. I mean, he didn’t say anything new. 

His take is the same take that has been explored since TPM came out. I don’t know if people shocked by it are new fans who weren’t around when the movies came out or didn’t have access to the interviews/EU or of if they are in deep denial about the characters portrayed on screen.

“What’s at stake is really how Anakin’s going to turn out, because Qui-Gon is different than the rest of the Jedi.”

FACT since 1999. We know Qui-Gon was a ‘rebel’ since TPM came out. He’s even known as a ‘maverick jedi’ for that very reason, with multiple novels and comics exploring that side of him. Hell, he was Dooku’s apprentice, a guy known for being one of the Council’s biggest critics even when he was still a Jedi Master.

“Obi-wan:  Do not defy the council, Master, not again. Qui-Gon: I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan. Obi-wan:  If you would just follow the code, you would be on the council.” The Phantom Menace, 1999.

You get that in the movie, and Qui-Gon is fighting because he knows that he’s the father that Anakin needs, because Qui-Gon hasn’t given up on the fact that Jedi are supposed to care and love and that that’s not a bad thing. 

FACT since 1999. 

He was angry that the Jedi Master would dismiss him so abruptly in favor of the boy, but he realized, too, the depth of Qui-Gon’s passion when he believed in something. Training this boy to be a Jedi was a cause Qui-Gon championed as he had championed no other in Obi-Wan’s memory. He did not do so to slight his protégé. He did so because he believed in the boy’s destiny. Obi-Wan understood. Who could say? Perhaps this time Qui-Gon was right. Perhaps Anakin Skywalker’s training was a cause worth fighting for. [Terry Brooks. The Phantom Menace – published in 2000]

That Filoni himself reinforces in 2013 during an interview about TCW’s season 5: “I’ve always felt that one of Anakin’s downfalls, like it’s never that Anakin was innately going to be evil, but the people around him, the Jedi, in their lack of compassion, in being so selfless that they almost forgot to care.” Dave Filoni

The rest of the Jedi are so detached and they’ve become so political that they’ve really lost their way and Yoda starts to see that in the second film. But, Qui-Gon is ahead of them all and that’s why he’s not part of the council, so he’s fighting for Anakin. 

FACT since 1999. 

“With Episode I, I didn’t want to tell a limited story. I had to go into the politics and the bigger issues of the Republic and that sort of thing. I had to go into bigger issues.” George Lucas

In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can’t say any more!- CUT interview 09/07/99?

“The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it’s getting tired, old, it’s getting corrupt. There’s the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who’s destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic. George Lucas - from the American ANH VHS tape in the making of Episode II in the 2000 release.

[The Jedi] sort of persuade people into doing the right thing but their job really isn’t to go around fighting people yet there are now used as generals and they are fighting a war and they are doing something they really weren’t meant to do.They are being corrupted by this war, by being forced to be generals instead of peacemakers. – George Lucas for E! Behind the Scenes - Star Wars Episode III Revenge of the Sith

That’s one of the few times in history when the bad guys were very clearly delineated for us. There really was a fight for survival going on between pretty clearly good guys and bad guys. The story being told in Star Wars is a classic one. Every few hundred years, the story is retold because we have a tendency to do the same things over and over again. Power corrupts, and when you’re in charge, you start doing things that you think are right, but they’re actually not. . – George Lucas

That’s why it’s the duel of the fates, it’s the fate of this child and depending on how this fight goes, Anakin, his life is going to be dramatically different. 

If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balanced these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. – George Lucas

"So, Qui-Gon loses, of course, so the father figure, he knew what it meant to take this kid away from his mother when he had an attachment and he’s left with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan trains Anakin at first out of a promise he made to Qui-Gon, not because he cares about him. Obi-Wan trains Anakin at first out of a promise he makes to Qui-Gon, not because he cares about him.

FACT since 1999. We literally see this in the movie.

He stopped his pacing and stared momentarily at nothing, thinking of Qui-Gon Jinn, his Master, his teacher, his friend. He had failed Qui-Gon in life. But he would carry on his work now, honoring him in death by fulfilling his promise to train the boy, no matter what. [Terry Brooks. The Phantom Menace]

When they find Anakin on Tatooine, he says, “I feel like we’ve found another useless lifeform.” He’s comparing Anakin to Jar Jar. And he’s saying, “This is a waste of time. Why are we doing this? Why do you see importance in these creature like Jar Jar Binks and this 10 year old boy? This is useless.”

FACT since 1999.

So he’s a brother to Anakin, eventually, but he’s not a father figure.  

“He is like my brother. I cannot do it.” Obi-wan Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith.

This, then, is Obi-Wan and Anakin: They are closer than friends. Closer than brothers. Though Obi-Wan is sixteen standard years Anakin’s elder, they have become men together. Neither can imagine life without the other. The war has forged their two lives into one.  [Matthew Stover. Revenge of the Sith]

[With Ahsoka] I wanted to develop a character who would help Anakin settle down. He's a wild child after [Attack of the Clones]. He and Obi Wan don't get along. So we wanted to look at how Anakin and Ahsoka become friends, partners, a team. When you become a parent or you become a teacher you have to become more respnsible. I wanted to force Anakin into that role of responsibility, into that juxtaposition. I have a couple of daughters so I have experience with that situation. I said instead of a guy let's make her a girl. Teenage girls are just as hard to deal with as teenage boys are. - George Lucas

That’s a failing for Anakin, he doesn’t have the family that he needs. He loses his mother in the next film. He fails on this promise that he made to his mother that 'I will come back and save you.' So he’s left completely vulnerable and Star Wars is ultimately about family.

FACT since 2002.

“Love people. That’s basically all Star Wars is.” — George Lucas

So, that moment in that movie, which a lot of people diminish as a cool lightsaber fight, but it’s everything that the entire three films in the prequels hangs on, is that one particular fight and Maul serves his purpose and at that point died before George brought him back.But he died, showing you how the Emperor is completely self-serving. He doesn’t care, he’s using people and now he’s gonna use this child.

FACT since 1999.

Each Sith has an apprentice, but the problem was, each Sith Lord got to be powerful. And the Sith Lords would try to kill each other because they all wanted to be the most powerful. So in the end they killed each other off, and there wasn’t anything left. So the idea is that when you have a Sith Lord, and he has an apprentice, the apprentice is always trying to recruit somebody to join him — because he’s not strong enough, usually — so that he can kill his master. That’s why I call it a Rule of Two — there’s only two Sith Lords. There can’t be any more because they kill each other. They’re not smart enough to realize that if they do that, they’re going to wipe themselves out. Which is exactly what they did.” George Lucas

Everything that Filoni said has been part of the lore and movies for 20 years now, so I really don’t get why people are so shocked by it. Also, context people! People have been using Disney canon to ‘prove’ Filoni wrong but these movies and the clone wars were written with long before Disney came into play. Filoni, like so many of us, grew up with Star Wars belonging to George and that colors how he look at the franchise and the characters. And don’t get me started on the ‘the EU doesn’t matter’ argument because it absolutely does. 

“And then George Lucas tells me one day, ‘We’re gonna put the Mandalorians in the Clone Wars.'  And I go 'Oh boy. That’s interesting. Cuz, lemme show you this.'  And I move this big pile of material over and I said 'This is everything. This is everything that the Mandalorians are right now.’ And so George and I do what we always do when we come across something that I know exists well in the EU, we go over it all.“ Now, all the history of Mandalore you prior to The Clone Wars it does exists. It absolutely exists.” — Dave Filoni

There’s actual behind the scenes footage of Filoni and George Lucas working on The Clone Wars and checking the EU to keep everything as cohesive as possible. The guy literately had thousands of conversations with George Lucas – the guy who actually created Star Wars – about these characters but somehow people are now trashing him because he said they should’ve know already?

Look, anyone who knows me know I’m not a Filoni stan but I believe in respecting people’s work and giving credit where credit is due even when I don’t agree with them 100%. If they don’t like his take, fine, that’s their right but please tone down the outrage fest because it’s entirely unjustified (and, to be completely honest, a little desperate for validation). He’s an actual person, not a fictional character there for you to hate or stan.

There’s a lot I don’t agree with it in this life but I don’t go around attacking real people and their jobs. But maybe we shouldn’t be so surprised, considering the people going after Filoni are the same people who have not problem whatsoever with star wars authors receiving death and rape threats.