#General thoughts on her treatment even from a lobcorp point and some things i was able to see on lor. hey. hey what the FUCK

[nieranddear]

I know it was probably supposed to be to be in tags but I soon realized that it just Couldn't possibly fit so... here is a whole 3k+ word semi structured ramble on the matter [being Ayin and what the hell that man is] and my own thoughts on him. I hope you’re fine with it

Sympathetic, yes. Excused and able to be seen as a saint or the sort where his actions are 'justifiable' or that he is a 'good man'? Oh fuck no. Absolutely not. How about a Monster? Easily a flat out no. Does that make him a horrible person or ‘bad person’? I can’t say for sure as the definition of both depends on who you ask, but in mine it he isn’t a ‘bad person’. It would be far easier to be able to call him a bad person. A Monster. But he isn’t. He’s a person with numerous sins and blood on his hands but ultimately he is just a Person. Human. Painfully Human. Mind you, I've only played Lobcorp. Nothing on Ruina so perhaps my opinion may change. I will say this first. Just because he expresses guilt and remorse, just because he actively shows and expresses care for those around him in forms to where it was true and unfiltered [Abel “ Fatigue and Waiting” meltdown, Abram “Regret and Atonement” meltdown, day 40 literally deadass] it doesn't mean shit to those he hurt if he, Ayin, the man at his core, doesn't go ahead and attempt to Make It So his wrongs are even somewhat put right. Which he does. In a way that I’ll talk about in mixed feelings later. It doesn't resolve him of the 'sins' or his faults. But he is so so painfully Human. Which is why I do like him, as a character at least, and can feel sympathy for his plight. Just because one feels sympathy doesn’t mean that the person they can feel it towards is ‘clean’ or doesn’t hold ‘sin’ or, in a way that sounds less pretentious and used more commonly in the internet, ‘unproblematic’.

Perhaps the main problem with him is that he never did Stop. A huge thing when revolving around him. Not looking back, refusing in a way and unable in another. Be it in needing progress, to a want to achieve the goal he sees entrusted onto him from, seemingly, a woman he joined the project for and solely for as “...She wanted to save them, and guide their souls back… to dedicate herself to save humanity. Yet I, who held no such ambition, had to continue her legacy” [Day 50]. No such ambition to save humanity, for he “Lost [his] heart” and had known for a “very long time.”. Yet he didn’t stop and continued to carry her will and bring the Project to an end and was determined to do so by any means necessary For Her. Be it by not turning around to look at the bodies along his path or the fact guilt holds so heavy on his body he doesn’t look to see such a thing [Elijah, Binah's story [4] "And what happened to that coward? The one who with fear averted his gaze from my dying one." “Erasing your memories and running away from them as if nothing happened is your age-old specialty.”, Day 40 and the existence of the cognition filter in the first place and the response ‘Can you stop the recording, please?’, Abel on Day 47 “Yet you did not care to witness his final moments.”]. Or dulling himself to the atrocities he gradually grew and tumbled down into as the domino chain kept falling and the thorns along that past never subsided, getting even more grueling of a path to endure as time went on. The part that has me struggle to pin him as a ‘mastermind’ or the sort is the fact he Does express that guilt and remorse and even acknowledgement for his faults and acts.

Even though I did say it ‘didn’t mean shit’. Yes, to those he hurt it doesn’t, yet it doesn’t automatically disqualify either side’s pain. You can’t just go ahead and decide that one person’s suffering isn’t able to be taken into account solely due to the fact they also inflicted pain and hurt. Even if you don’t agree nor forgive, it still Does exist. If you shut out another solely due to the fact of personal vendetta or general hate you’re still silencing another. Yes, you can have an opinion but completely disregarding another, even if you did deem them ‘horrible’, is still Disregarding Another’s Feelings and Pain or even how they got to that point. He is someone that holds care. Yet he is also someone who did some unforgivable shit. Which is fine to not be fine with. But focusing on one side, that part of ‘Cruelty’ or part of ‘Affection’ without acknowledging the other is still ignoring the facets of the man. Which he has many of. He is someone that shows remorse and has a whole struggle with existing which can be seen in the later days. He is someone that can be seen calling it what it is. [Abram’s mentioning of them becoming “cruel” “We destroyed everything while holding her warmth in our hands.” Abram in his entirety even if the words are soaked inside guilt and self-hate it’s still aware of the actions, of day 50 and in its entirety “As you can see, we’ve become just like other Wings, committing atrocities just like them. The employees here have repeated hundreds upon thousands of deaths… My friends were robbed of their lives and trapped in this cycle of agony… All while I just sat and watch, justifying it all as the means to realize her ideal. This sin shall never be forgiven.”, Day 47’s “You realized how innocent, talented souls of young persons were trapped into machines by your hands, haven’t you?”] The idea of ‘Well why didn’t he Just stop? Just Notice it then? Not Do all of these heinous acts? Why didn’t he talk to Michelle and not experiment on Giovanni? Why didn’t he not force the procedure on Gabriel and not turn around and be safer with the key and with Elijah?’ It’s because he’s Human. He, Ayin, is a man shown to not stop at any means to realize a goal. Ayin is a man who doesn’t seem to be able to stop in his own mind, as shown before, and also a man who quite literally Didn’t Realize at the time what would happen with Elijah and Gabriel. Of the hazy specifics on the experiment with Enoch which was voted for as they didn’t want to lose their ‘binding light and ideal’ Carmen [Who is ultimately Human I love Carmen but this is a post about Ayin]. A man good with machines and the scientific part of things, methodical in the creation of a script, yet lacking inside the aspects that relate to the emotional response [See the ‘Old Lab’ as I don’t quite know the name so that is what I’ll be referring to it as with Michelle, Gabriel, Elijah, the lack of words to Daniel in the end, hurting the heart of the man that stayed by him to the end where he left as well. The obsession and drive for the project causing those nearby him to die. For the drive to get results and progress on research to complete the goal causing him to also be blinded by that and finally directly have blood on his hands with Giovanni not including the self blame of ‘driving her to her death’ (Paraphrased) with Carmen.] It’s only after the fact and after he is forced to stop [The Project halting in a way and the loops taking place over years and years] or after the fact itself [The talks from A when a Core Meltdown is about to happen and after it does is known to be after the fact though the actual time of realization is hazy, either it be directly after the death or awhile after, but it doesn’t matter as it is a realization that occurs after the tragedy happened] does he realize the mistakes and faults when looking back. [This can also be seen in Abel in his entirety. “We were too naive. I could only realize what wrongdoings we have done after transiently passing all these years.”]

It’s the fact he is self-reflective in the terms of knowing his faults after the fact, the fact he punishes himself [Loops, Binah [4] “Why is he down here suffering the same punishment as I?”, Day 35, Direct calling of this as a ‘Prison’ multiple times.], the fact that even still he persists for the wish of another when wanting to “Fade” and “Be forgotten” [Day 47,  Hokma Story 5, the elaborate farewell that is day 50, the desire and want to “Fade away without a trace” seen inside the Final Days and Hokma’s Story 5], the fact he sinks so commonly into the pit of guilt and regret [Abram in his entirety huge emphasis on Abram and his existence, Day 38 “It was also my role to butter you up with plain words, to help you avoid sinking into the pit of guilt”, Day 40 Again.], the fact he tries to rectify his mistakes and still pursue the goal of another, all for another [Day 43 “ I did not approve of you placing the Sephirot here. However, you told me that your atonement and the awakening of the Sephirot were key to the untying of this knot I lie in.”, the fact he sees himself as a core cause of Carmen’s death and feeling as he needs to complete her will in a way because of her no longer being there, the whole facility being ‘Penance’ mentioned by Adam who is a whole other thing that is fairly simple yet wordy to even talk about]. Ayin is a Man. Not a monster. Nor a genius manipulator that pulled every single string for his Script brings the ‘play’ to conclusion and the Project to its end in that part but still neglects various this [being emotional/mental aspects which is a common thing with him. That and completely lacking Angela in the end without her ever getting a conclusion in his script. STUPID script by the way]. He’s a Man who, when running to a goal, wouldn’t look back and almost in a way couldn’t for he had to bury that emotional response to be able to bear it all. A man who, inside his grief, is seen and stated to be is irritable and irrational [Snow Queen entry, Day 31 “If a ray of sunlight breaks your heart and collapses your mind with longing and nostalgia… And seeing plants outside evokes an unknown rage, tearing down your rational thought… Then we have no choice but to stay underground”]. A man who acknowledges himself [Abram] that he isn’t “normal” nor sane. A man who saw that he needed to bury his emotions underneath rationality and for his goal and who, scarily, started to become numb and apathetic to the acts the longer they went on. Became numb. Those actions that instilled fear, as it was stated to be fear, slowly happening again and again and causing the numbness. Just… the entirety of the Final Days and especially day 47 on this specific matter. Lobotomy corporation is a wonderful game I adore but it doesn’t know the word ‘subtly’ in any manner of speaking. If it wants to communicate something, it’ll say it upright. Which makes it a bit more confusing when some words may be seen as deceitful . Yes, it’s a good thing to think about the intent behind the words, but also just the plain style of how the story is delivered doesn’t make much wiggle room as it ends up plainly laying it out to the reading. It’s Very Clear on it. You see the struggles of the Sephirot, and then it is mirrored inside A, Ayin, himself. That’s how the game is also literally structured. Needing those answers from the Sephirot who mirror his own agony and struggle  in order to tell those resolutions and resolves he saw inside those people to the fragments of himself.

I totally understand why people would hate him or dislike him as a character. He's hurt so many people and taken so many lives. Done things seen as 'too far' which, yeah, absolutely can see that and I'm not excited to learn about how exactly the rest of this City functions as well. Do I believe him to be a monster? Nothing of the sort. All of his struggle stems from the fact he is so rawly Human. Do I believe he needs to be forgiven? No. No. I don't believe he should be for his actions. I don't think he Needs to be forgiven. I think they need to, his faults, be addressed. In fact it feels weird when people just forgive him for it all. He, himself, states something of the like on Day 50. He's left so many with wounds and scars that won't heal. Hurt the hearts of those nearby him and left until there was none and then only Angela which I’m not well equipped to talk about as from what I’ve heard LOR discusses her own journey and pains. But I feel as if saying he's a ‘monster’ completely ignores the other parts of his character which Are There. He’s not a messiah or anything idealized, nor is he without fault, nor does that pain and guilt erase everything. He's a person who is stubborn and adamant on achieving something when he goes ahead and dedicates himself to a cause. He’s someone who doesn’t communicate and whose face is commonly flat most of the time and seen to be in the memories at the least [Hokma, Gebura story, Day 50 expressions]. He's someone who held such love in his heart as I tend to point out in other parts and get stuck on, they used ‘Loved ones’ to describe the others. He’s someone who fully felt as if the will to live and exist died the moment Carmen did, as if his life held no meaning, as if dependent on her [Day 47 stated, shown in practice further Day 48].  He’s someone who used justifications and passing things off in the sake of a goal that he clings to as it was one of the only things he had left of Carmen at that point, especially since it was a request asked of Carmen herself. Justifications for numerous amounts of agony and torment. Grief that shrouded his actions in pain and irritability and cruelty. Yet a man who also still holds himself accountable and hates himself for feeling unable to protect those people who he considers dear to him. A man who deems himself and his existence as "very wrong". "Wrong from the start."

It feels as if some people are reluctant to bring up aspects of him? Brought up before it feels as if a layer or aspect of Ayin is taken and then the other parts of him fall to the wayside. Not quite sure where to go with this but it's a thing that feels as if it occurs. I say feel for I can't find any actual concrete examples so I won't say 'notice' or that it 'totally does happen!' so I'll leave that thought as this small section since I can't elaborate further

Ayin is Fucked. Absolutely, thoroughly. Yet in a way that the patterns and rationale for being brought to that point is understandable of How. I can’t find it in me to look for sources right now but from what I remember it’s as if Carmen was his only source to strive for. A blinding beacon that wasn’t like any other who had an earnest wish to save and support those inside this hell hole of a City that so easily seems to cut down and devalue life. One stated to be of survival where fear needs to be consumed to continue on living. Of one so focused upon advancements where the idea of empathy has degraded, systematically at least in that stand point. Endless continuation stepping over the bodies of others. Yet Carmen was always said and shown to be so vastly different. It feels as if he kind of clung to her in a way. As if a whole part of him physically Died the moment she could never smile anymore. Almost extremely dependent. It's easy to see how a man so attached could end up doing such things if it seems as if the person he felt took his Being away when she died asked it of him. Do I think that Ayin was doing this completely inside of how she would’ve wished or wanted? NO. She literally states herself that her goal wasn’t to become a wing yet L corp ends up as a wing for reasons relating to the monitoring of the Head. One of MANY examples, the other being the, oh I don’t know, numerous amounts of bodies they had to step over with. Perhaps the "Unique cruelty unable to be found in any other wing." Yet it's also stated that Ayin’s very heart is described as a void where the pieces of a heart used to be or something along those lines. That he shows a crushing and suffocating amount of guilt for everything. That he closed his eyes and ears to everything to become numb. Yet a facet of himself still basically berates and Knows deeply and regrets for if he didn't why the Hell would Abram exist? Yet, again, this brings into the fact that just because he regets it all and shows remorse and a want for repentance if he doesn't actually end up doing something relating to it or even communicate it to others it, on its own, won't 'Mean' much. I say 'mean' as emotions do, even if not communicated, have weight. But also this is a man who had done horrific, heinous shit. Let's see some Change, brother, come on man stop getting stuck inside that cycle and idea of the inability to move forward or change the past actions you also hate and the path you took that stripped you away of what could be considered your 'humanity'. Learn to. Well. Live. Live with it, too. Which is a whole thing they're trying to get people to do. Live. Not just survive. Practice what you want to bring forth and preach, man. Even if it were for the sake of another. Do it for her...

[Next part is from souly the perspective of someone that has yet to Play LOR but will soon.]

On the idea of how they handled him at the end of Lobcorp…. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I HOPE. I HOPE that they bring him back. Not in a way to where he has to be an active figure, but more of to where he can’t just fade away or forgotten the way he yearned to. I want that fucker to face what he has done. I don’t want him to be able to fulfill the Seed of Light Project and that’s it. There’s so much he has to atone for. It feels almost cheap to just have it seemingly stop at day 50 the way it did. I Want him to be able to atone [not to be confused with needless and endless berating for it will get nowhere]. To try and own up to his actions. To be that ‘better person’ he so deems himself incapable of being constantly. To not ‘Fade’ like he so wants to and actively yearns for and that want to die. No one has to forgive nor forget. I don’t want that shit to be swept under the rug so doing such a thing would feel flat. Gaping wounds he left behind hadn’t ever been fully addressed. The Sephirot found their reasons and ability to keep going in the Company but never really any active repentance or show of remorse Directly To Them by Ayin. Hey, big problem with Ayin, He Doesn’t Communicate Or Express when he is feeling things. One of the only reasons we as the viewer are even able to sort him out internally is because we see it all from His View. God I just HOPE that they do something more with him. They made a character that encompasses all of the struggles and pains of the others, yet not just used as a narrative device for ‘hey, get better and push on! Face your past! Confront it and even if you can’t find the ‘Answer’ or ‘Reason’ to now, just the ability to change and face and bear it is a start to even begin to Live!’ I know it was likely due to time constraints or how the game itself is structured. The days system that’s limited with the further details on Ayin and Carmen being crammed into the later parts after the rest as the lower layer seems to be implemented near the final parts when they actually added Carmen as an entity entirely from what can be reviewed and recalled at the moment. Either way, I really want him to finally not be a bitch when it comes to the others and actually start expressing that love he so feels for the rest by Doing something for Them. Instead of it all just being the project or bringing them back which was, indeed, a goal they all wanted but it was also done by the huge drive to finish Carmen's dream and will. Not for the Sephirot themself though perhaps there was also a drive to do it for them but I cannot say as it was never stated from what I can remember. I want him to do something, anything for the people he forcibly brought back. For Them. To Them. Directly. Hell, even him having to go ahead, even after seeking to fade ‘fading’ actively, to try and build up something be it physically or mentally to give back to the world he took too much from and caused so much pain to would be nice to see. It won’t make it better nor will it ever erase what happened, but it will be Something. Finally.

There are many parts I missed. Still so much I want to talk about. But I’ll stop here as this already is so much. I hope it’ll be at least somewhat interesting or informative to try and help with your curiosity on the matter

Tl;dr. Ayin. I love him because of his various parts that cannot be separated that make up the whole of this man I can't stop myself from being enamored with. I mean parts mentally and literally. I'm getting the ice pick for him to make this a REAL Lobotomy Corporation

probably going to regret asking this, but I want to know what the vibe is:

I know opinions are gonna be very complex, just choose the answer closest to what you feel. explain in the tags if you must.

And only choose "played LobCorp" if you've actually played the game, any level of completion. "haven't played" covers other ways of experiencing the game, like let's plays, wiki reading, secondhand knowledge from later entries, etc. I want to specifically understand any difference in opinion between those who have/have not played.