#FOLLOWING BOOK CANON- he frames wwx

[admirableadmiranda]

Just a silly rumble of words; I didn't get into any of the works till this very year (first week January), at the loving pushing of a friend who wanted to drag me into the fandom pit. I watched 28 eps of the untamed and couldn't get past that cus of how we were stuck in the past and it was all very depressing and maddening lol. I picked up the novel and had no issues finishing it. To say it was a jarring experience finishing the novel and going into fandom spaces and the overwhelming love and stans of JC, I felt like I had walked into the twilight zone. I kept reading posts on him and thinking I had gotten the name wrong because I was seeing zero link in the slightest(I would even wiki names), then it became undeniable it was definitely 'him'. The fanart was the final nail in the coffin, why was so much of it with wwx and JC speaking after the end; a thing? It was overwhelmingly clear it was a mutual cut off and neither had a desire for the other to be around them. Every form of media I wanted to engage with all had that, I couldn't read fanfics, look at most art, even written analysis posts it was so OOC. I actively went looking for posts on why they liked JC, why they thought this and that, and every time it was just 'but he objectively didnt' 'that didn't happen though' It felt very isolating and confusing because I generally wanted to take an active part in the space. I can't say the JC rewrite was the only issue but rewriting in general was a very big problem in general. I even watched scenes and videos to see if the drama held weight to create this character but even then he was written in a more pitiful and likeable light but I still personally didn't feel it was fully justified. I'm all for liking unlikeable characters but this character wasn't even a shadow of the canon character I knew and I went in wanting and willing to understand and love him. I was (am) beyond excited to find people who did analysis posts and created spaces that follow the novel, I blocked tags, followed blogs, made a little space that was limited content but it was still content. To say I'm just exhausted and frustrated over this whole 'discourse' event, is putting it lightly. I always got push over content that didn't fit my taste but I would just move past it. My friend is even a fan of JC but openly admits to not enjoying the novel so only takes the 'lore' of the drama as real and we've never had any issues, I'll even send those push over posts of JC that come on my tl to them. It feels like we created a home on a mountain, happily existing in peace and then people come storming in saying we're evil and ruining their experience and active haters out to ruin the fandom. It's just bewildering, with all this being said thank you to you and all the other content creators for the content and I'm sorry and sad you're getting harassed for creating it but pls know it's very much appreciated and wanted. (And needed for my sanity lol)

Ah anon, I understand your cql burnout there. I myself had to skip from around the fall of Lotus Pier up to episode 33 in order to actually watch it as the backstory is just too long and really ruins the framing of present day and backstory that the book does so well.

I understand your confusion and frustration there. I had a lot of those same experiences when I joined the fandom, of being confused and bewildered at all this stuff that either vaguely or completely contradicted the book. It took me accidentally stumbling across a blog that actively did not like Jiang Cheng to revive my fandom love and then stumbling into a wonderful friend group that were happy to have me too in order to finally really start enjoying MDZS fandom. Sort of the same thing you did, only with more active pushback against fandom narratives.

Thank you very much for your kind words. It is currently a very frustrating time, but I won’t give in and let them have the tag. I conceded one fight, I won’t give in on this one.

The wheel continues to turn and people move with it. It will not always be this frustrating.

<3

[lansplaining]

Maybe the reason WWX sees his relationship with JC in a large part as debts owed is that IN CANON - both the book and the novel - JC goes on repeatedly and constantly about what he and his family are owed and what WWX needs to pay, while rejecting/ignoring anything he might owe to others. It was Madame Yu and JC who framed WWX's role in their family in terms that a money-lender would use. That's WHY the no sorry or thank you from LWJ is vital, there are no debts between THEM.

I’m not gonna deny that Mme Yu treated WWX very badly and made the very iconic choice to use her dying words to heap an extra helping of trauma onto both Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng. A legend of bad parenting, for sure.

But a) very specifically, the thing that Jiang Cheng is harping on when Wei Wuxian returns to life is that Wei Wuxian owes… a visit to the Jiang shrine? A return to Lotus Pier? An apology to Jin Ling and an effort to make amends to him? These are all expectations you’d have if someone who matters to you and is part of your family, not a “money-lender” (a really loaded word you should be careful with, sorry).

Yes, you can highlight the things Jiang Cheng said when he had seen the corpses of his parents thirty seconds before, and maybe Wei Wuxian did really take those things to heart, but I think neither we nor Wei Wuxian should be taking the words of a freshly grieving 18 year old quite so literally.

And b) the idea that Jiang Cheng doesn’t think about what he owes people is very, very funny to me. He tried to literally die to save Wei Wuxian! He dedicated his entire life to keeping the re-emerging Jiang clan safe. He isn’t not thinking about what he owes Wei Wuxian or even what he owes the Wen when he makes all those choices post-Sunshot, he’s weighing those obligations against his obligation to the Jiang clan, to all the people who have pledged to follow him and who he in turn has promised to protect, and decides that his role as clan leader wins. You can disagree with that choice, but it is unquestionably a choice made out of a feeling of obligation to others.

That’s the real contrast with Lan Wangji, yes: he doesn’t put anyone else first (eventually). And he’s a second son, so he doesn’t have to. Yes, he’s brutally punished for it, but no one materially suffers for his choice except himself. He does not draw the ire of the cultivation world down on the Lan clan. When novel canon is resolved, he can run off into the woods with Wei Wuxian because he has no other responsibilities—no one cares what he does (except maybe Xichen but hey, he’ll live I guess). He doesn’t owe anything to anyone except Wei Wuxian, both in his own mind AND in the eyes of the world.

[tanoraqui]

time to clarify my personally cultivated (ha) MDZS/The Untamed timeline. which should be assumed to apply to most fics:

it’s mostly the book bc that’s what I read

BUT Wen Qing, Wen Ning, and Jiang Yanli were all at Cloud Recesses with the rest of them because a) what if female characters got more screentime and b) what if everyone was more or less friends-adjacent before they all went to war

HOWEVER there’s no Yin Iron plotline at all. the Wens were there on account of...probably still spying, and also Wen Ruohan was still playing slightly nice idk. Maybe he wanted Wen Qing to steal some texts from the Lan library

EDIT: Actually, it was definitely A Political Decision for GusuLan to invite summer guest disciples from a wide assortment of other sects, including the heirs to all the other Great Sects except QishanWen, even though Wen Chao (not heir, but direct lineage) seems to be of the right age. And it’s likewise A Political Decision for Wen Ruohan to send students from his clan anyway, daring the Lans to be so rude as to turn them away - but not his actual son(s), of course. Just the odd rural healer cousins. Mild espionage should be assumed as well, though maybe not theft of texts.

Also Edit: Realized belatedly that Wen Qing and Wen Ning being the weird rural healer cousins isn’t actually book!canon - but it is MY canon. 

Wen Qing also still had to be WRH’s personal medic while he did Sketchy Dark Magic Shit - probably, yeah, demonic cultivation. Power-hungry asshole that he is. Maybe experimental curses? But in this house, we stan people just making bad or malicious decisions WITHOUT Evil(TM) Mcguffins to egg them along, thank you very much

except the Stygian Tiger Seal, wrought from the twisted iron of a sword imbued with a thousand-plus angry spirits found in the stomach of a raging turtle nearly-god. That can stay

demonic cultivator!Su She is also SO out, FUCK you for taking away from the tragedy of Wei Wuxian’s hubris and "you want a villain? FINE” phase that immediately goes wrong when he loses control. It is so much less interesting for him to be framed in any other way

while I’m intrigued by mixing the Yi City crew into the story pre-WWX’s death, I don’t really know how it works in the show and there’s also something achingly heartbreaking about the protagonists missing these characters by like...a hair, a single year at most of wandering in just the right direction, and because of that, missing them utterly

I don’t see why we can’t have a conversation about soulmates AND a blindfolded makeout session on Phoenix Mountain. Don’t be cowards

in fact, I cannot emphasize this enough: absolutely all sexual activity in the book is GONNA happen. And the loud public confession of love (and lust!) when held hostage at Guanyin Temple? You can pry that out of my cold undead hands

speaking of: blood pool corpses fuck yeah. I get why the show conflated the Nightless City and Burial Mounds confrontations but it’s actually MUCH worse if all the cultivators showed up 3 months later to kill 50-odd malnourished would-be farmers and watch Wei Wuxian explode half the Tiger Seal and consequently get torn to pieces by resentful energy and corpses. Though actually, definitely the only one who saw it close enough for any detail was Jiang Cheng, which is why he gets credited (he did Not Do It)

book canon re: break in time between Phoenix Mountain and Wen Qing coming for help. Also, no Wens at Phoenix Mountain

Edit 3: Apparently the show has ALL the Wen refugees at the Burial Mounds be from the Dafan branch, but mostly non-cultivators? That’s dumb. They’re a sad found family of the 50-odd people from the Qiongqi Pass work camp who thought the safest risk, upon being freed, was to clamber on three-to-a-horse and follow the Yiling Patriarch (and Wen Qing) to god knows where. Most probably ARE cultivators, though not of Wen clan itself and not, perhaps, particularly strong. But as prisoners they were specifically forbidden from using cultivation, so it must be an option 

finally: we PROJECT A BIT ON STAN Jiang Yanli not cultivating because she had a chronic medical condition that either made her unable to safely practice or was only solved by some clever spiritual/medical fixed loop that channeled all her spiritual energy into keeping herself alive. Or both! I like a heart condition myself

[eyeslikefoxglove]

Episode 10 - Tywin Lannister called, he wants the Rains of Castamere back & once again, Foxglove cheers when someone gets shanked

Hiiiii! Welcome to episode 10 commentary! I’m doing this one right after episode 9 because for once in my life I started on this early enough in the day I can get more than one single episode in. Hope you enjoy!

Before I descend into several “wtf is wrong with this guy” rants, let me point a funny to y’all. The corpse that WWX checks for pupillary changes is not only breathing, you can see his carotid pulse jumping on his neck.

Ok done.

WHAT THE FUCK THAT’S A LITTLE GIRL WHAT THE FUCK.

Fuck this creeper oh my god. I know he’s supposed to have a tragic past and be cute and charismatic but I just want to shush him every time he opens his mouth.

(XXC truly looks like an elven prince doesn’t he)

Aaaaaand WWX gives zero fucks about your dramatic exit stage right.

He also gives zero fucks about the fight to the death happening right in front of him, I mean, why would he when he can flirt with LWJ instead?

Speaking of said fight, I really hope they sped up the footage of them spinning through the air, because if whatever machine and harnesses they used truly spun them so fast I feel for the actors/body doubles.

Hey XXC that’s your boyfriend right there!

Today is really not XY’s day is it.

(That disgusted face WWX makes is pretty much a visual representation of what I feel when XY tries to be cute. Seriously)

SHUT UP XY MY BOY IS HAVING A FANBOY MOMENT.

I can’t believe I’m saying this but he’s got a point. Not in this case, because these five are actually good people but the rich and powerful are indeed a bunch of hypocrites. *Softly plays Eat the Rich*

LWJ is a hairsbreadth away from slapping XY out of his faux-innocent act and I can’t say I fault him tbh. And WWX is fucking smug because he is the king of being a little shit and this amateur got nothing on him.

Is Zhu Zanjin wearing eyeliner or are his eyelashes actually that incredible?

I’m making pained noises because I keep wondering what would’ve happened if WWX had asked XXC for help after people mounted a witch hunt against him and why do I keep doing this to myself?

WWX: *talks about his boyfriend*

JC: *eyeroll*

Oh my god this bit is so painful. You can see how starved WWX is about finding the smallest connection with his mum and my soul hurts.

And LWJ’s face watching them go. He’s probably just realised this was a dream you could have, and there it is, walking away. I’m gonna go make myself some tea and eat some cake or something, I deserve it after all this emotional turmoil.

(Aaaaaaand there goes XY being a fucking creep again)

LOOK AT MY TWO LIL CUPCAKES BEING FUCKING ADORABLE WHEN THEY GET PRAISED. LOOK AT THEM.

We’ve already established that I have the survival instincts of a concussed lemming but NMJ is a dude I want to get into a shouting match with. I don’t dislike him or anything and he’s badass, but watching this is obvious a five year old with an attitude can push his buttons. And he’s both a political leader and has a whole baby brother to take care off, you can’t allow yourself to get so angry you contemplate murder in your living room my dude. Furthermore, I know his way of cultivation makes him even more unstable and prone to Qi deviation; but instead of finding a way to work around that this idiot is ok with dying young and leaving everyone who loves him fucking devastated. Because why? It’s the way of his clan? It’s traditional? It’s honourable? Fuck that, no wonder NHS dislikes sword fighting so much if that’s going to eventually kill his big brother.

NMJ: I am a just and frank man, I fear nothing in presence of sinners like you.

Me, with a megaphone: HUBRIS IS A BITCH

The One Braincell Trio being MY fanboys gives me life *insert another million canon-divergences in which they befriend MY and everything is less Lannister red as a result*

THIS ASSHOLE IS2G SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING LIKE THAT ABOUT MY MUM AND NO ONE WILL FIND THE BODY.

Ok, NMJ called Lan Yi “the great talented leader of the Lan”, I want to pick a less violent fight with him now.

Wei “let me be damn sexy while drinking” Wuxian back at it again.

WUJI IS ON! MOONLIGHT! ROOFTOPS!

WWX: Lan Zhan I’ll sleep on your roof tonight

LWJ: Wei Ying I have to go

WWX: Lan Zhan I’ll sleep on your roof tonight

LWJ: Wei Ying, there’s room in my bed if we snuggle.

There, I fixed it. (Here I come again, joking to hide the pain. Parting is such sweet sorrow and all that)

... oh hey I’d never noticed how big Wang YiBo’s hands are and now I’m in trouble. Which is funny, cause LWJ is v much not my type, but Wang YiBo apparently is now? I mean, I’ve reblogged stuff about him because he’s ridiculously beautiful but...

*falls down a google images rabbit hole*

...

Yeah I can safely say I’m into Wang YiBo’s badboy-prettyboy-coolboy-gremlinboy attitude.

Anyway back to the show:

That was a fucking great sword throw and I love the little smirk MY’s wearing.

... what did I just see?

I don’t know how to describe it, but when WZL sticks the tip of his sword into the flat of NMJ’s sabre and drives him back and you see then go through the frame in front of WC? That’s like the most ridiculous anthropomorphic version of a train dragging a car along the tracks. All that’s missing is the “nyooooom” sound.

Speaking of WZL that’s one coolheaded dude.

Ok, I’m going to go down a Meng Yao rabbit hole again. Brace yoselves.

At risk of sounding like NHS I really don’t know why MY would’ve set XY free. I mean, if he gets XY and the Yin Iron back to WRH he’s got the chief cultivator’s favour... but everyone and their mum wants WRH out of the scene, including as far as he knows Daddy Dearest. He’s clever enough to realise there’s going to be a war, so he might’ve though that if he put himself up as a spy this soon it would’ve benefited the, yet nonexistent, SunShot Campaign. In the book he also murders his bully of a superior right before “defecting” and becoming a spy, and much like in here, NMJ catches him and stabbing happens. Do I think he, like the Jins, was playing both sides during the war? Yeah, but in this instance if I were him I wouldn’t trust in the benevolence of a man who makes puppets out humans for funsies, especially seeing how much he gets bullied.

Now if we go the other direction, of wrong place wrong time, MY doesn’t seem displeased with the Nies. I mean, NMJ and NHS like and respect him as far we’ve seen, NMJ even follows his advise. Why would he want to risk his fucking neck against NMJ just to get a potential in (that again depends on WRH liking him) to spy in a potential war? Call me a hufflepuff, but I’d stay put. Right before NMJ finds MY murdering someone we hear the voice of he asshole captain who loves to mess with MY, same captain that wasn’t present when confronting WC and that was really fucking drunk last night. I’m not saying this man works for the Wens, but hangovers make you sluggish and tired, who’s to say XY didn’t actually break tf out if this yahoo was the one guarding him (back again to the bit when MY asked the captain to post extra guards and the captain told him where to stick it, we don’t know if he actually doubled the guard) and MY walked in on it. Now this asshole has the perfect scapegoat! The *insert his preferred MY slur* did it! He saw it! And MY either panics or snaps and gets stabby.

Listen, it’s murder either way, and I won’t pretend MY doesn’t have a whole alphabet of plans for every situation, but damn I cheered.

Shut the fuck up WC.

My one track mind is shrieking because MY has a stab wound in his chest and he’s just... chilling? (Like a villain lol)

Did y’all see the fan smacking the hand bit? Now that I’ve seen the whole thing is evident, but that’s pretty much the same exact show as at the beginning with the “mysterious man”. Ooooohhhh I love the hints!

HOLY FUCK NMJ IS CRYING (my 3zun ship is sailing y’all can’t stop me).

Speaking of 3zun if y’all could point me to nice fics where everything doesn’t go up in flames for these three idiots I’d appreciate it.

And that’s all for this episode. Thanks for reading.

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

That is a good point, actually (despite what I posted earlier today). You could still interpret the cave misunderstanding as LWJ, like everyone else there, knowing what his actions were showing about his feelings to everyone around him (“this is what it seems” easily supports that too, he knows exactly what it seems like), which includes WWX. In that case, “this is what is seems” is sort of the confession itself, confirming that for him. I still do stand by the fact LXC said “the way he spoke to you, the way he looked at you (…) even somebody who was deaf or blind could have perceived his feelings” suggests that it’s more of a case of pretty much confirming love through actions rather than words (and LWJ very much expresses his love in actions as opposed to words throughout the book) — and LWJ knows WWX is smart, he knows he’d probably be able to figure out what was happening from his actions and demeanour and that slight confirmation given by LWJ that he didn’t have anything else to explain. But obviously WWX didn’t remember any of that, leading to the misunderstanding, and etc etc.

But, that’s the thing with interpretations — each person thinks of what interpretation fits better with the canon we’ve been given differently. I might treat LXC’s words as very important (to me at least, it’s probably he would have told WWX if LWJ had confessed outright, plus it’s the only actual source we have of what happened, which is treated as fact for WWX at least for the rest of the story, and isn’t disproven), and feel that there’s a sensible way of fitting those into the role of the misunderstanding in the story that makes sense, leading to my interpretation. You might treat its role more importantly, and figure there’s a sensible way of fitting your interpretation into what LXC said. And what you said certainly makes a lot of sense.

I guess my main issue with the whole LWJ-confessed-there thing is that it’s usually framed to me as LWJ telling WWX his feelings purely for LWJ’s own sake, and possibly wanting some sort of response (even if negative) when WWX was clearly not in a state for that). Which seemed very out of character. But the way you put it does actually make it seem a whole lot more likely, and more comfortable within the themes of the story as well — him saying that partly to comfort/calm down WWX*, and also because of all the things you said about LWJ’s emotional reasons, which definitely make a lot of sense, and make a lot of sense for him specifically. I should have considered that perspective of events, too, so thanks for talking about it! I agree with those reasons wholeheartedly.

*if it was, though, I don’t think it was to calm him down from a rampage. LXC says this about LWJ taking WWX away from Nightless City:

“After you were satisfied with the killing, you were a spent arrow as well. WangJi was injured on your rampage. He was in no better shape than you, barely supporting himself by leaning on Bichen. In spite of this, as he saw you stumble away, he immediately followed.”

- EXR translation, Chapter 99

Which does mean (I’m not sure if there’s room for interpretation here) that this was after the actual massacre had finished, and WWX was clearly weakened and not using the Yin Tiger Tally at that moment, and hence when LWJ talked to him. His mind was definitely in turmoil, so it could have definitely been to calm him down, just not from a rampage.

Why exactly are people confused about whether or not LWJ confessed to WWX after nightless city? While we do not know exactly what he said or did, it is unambiguous in chapters 99-100 that LWJ had knowingly expressed his feelings to WWX after nightless city & was under the impression that WWX knew...

‘When we arrived, you were sitting in a daze on a rock. WangJi was holding your hands and passing cultivation energy through to you. The entire time, he was quietly speaking to you. [...] Lan XiChen continued, “When my uncle reached him, he’d scolded him and asked him to explain himself. However WangJi seemed to have already expected us to find him, he only said, ‘There’s nothing to explain. This is what it seems.[...] “When he had hidden you inside that cave, the way he’d spoke to you, the way he’d looked at you—even a blind and deaf man would be able to tell what he felt for you.

It is not LXC alone that can read LWJ's feelings in that cave, all those Lan elders and LQR could too. Most importantly, LWJ was fully aware—'This is exactly what it seems'—ergo he had knowingly made his feelings known. I.e. a confession.

‘Suddenly, Wei WuXian felt terrified. If Lan WangJi had no idea that he had no memories of the few days after the battle at the Nightless City, if Lan WangJi always thought that he knew of his true feelings, then what had he been doing to Lan WangJi this whole time since he’d came back to life?’

This is WWX's conclusion based on the information LXC gave, his thoughts are later confirmed by LWJ's reaction to his third & final confession attempt. MXTX literally spelled this out for her readers and yet-

‘Lan WangJi’s eyes were downcast, and it was hard to read his expression. Wei WuXian knew that Lan WangJi likely didn’t believe in those few lines he’d said earlier. After all, he had been tormented by someone who’d teased him mercilessly while laughing without a clue for so long. It was only right for him to be suspicious. At the thought, Wei WuXian felt his chest go heavy, his heart trembling with sympathy. He didn’t dare to continue his line of thought. He only knew that he needed to fix it however he can, and hammer the point home.

He said, “Lan Zhan, here, look at me.”

Lan WangJi replied in a voice that still sounded a little tight, “Mmm.”

Taking a deep breath, Wei WuXian said quietly, “……I really do have terrible memories. I’ve forgotten a lot of things from before, including that night at the Nightless City. What really happened during those few days, I really don’t remember a thing.”

Hearing this, Lan WangJi’s eyes widened slightly.’

LWJ's reaction is clearly shocked when WWX says he doesn't remember what happened after nightless city and LWJ does not take WWX's confession seriously until after he'd explained this. LWJ assumed he was messing around as he always had done because WWX never acknowledged his own confession. LWJ clearly thought WWX knew of his feelings, he would only think this if he had told WWX of his feelings.

On a related point, why would LWJ choose a time like that to confess? I think it is pretty straightforward.

Something that is made clear throughout the whole Nightless City sequence, is that WWX perceives LWJ as an enemy, he thinks he’s there to fight him and condemn him. The narration makes it very clear that WWX’s perception of LWJ’s actions at this time is incorrect, he’s ‘lost his judgement.’ WWX is unable to consider that LWJ actually only wants to help him.

And in his second life, WWX still cannot understand why LWJ would want to help him. In chapter 12 he speculates that LWJ had actually recognised him, the only thing that makes him doubt this is that he thinks if LWJ knew his identity, he would definitely not be helping him. In chapter 31, after WWX has gotten LWJ to drink, he specifically asks him 'why are you helping me?'

After he takes him away from Nightless City, LWJ is dealing with a WWX who is quite out of his mind, and convinced that LWJ only wants to harm or punish him for the things that he’s done. The obvious way for LWJ to try to remedy this is to explain to WWX why he is helping him, because it was due to WWX believing LWJ was against that was making him lash out during nightless city (from ch.78, this is clear to LWJ). And in this scenario, the reason LWJ takes him away, heals him and looks after him, is because of his feelings for him.* (The 'shocking someone out of a rampage with an emotional confession' is a fairly common trope, is it not?)

So, we can see that LWJ has a clear practical reason to confess his feelings at this time.

From an emotional standpoint also, LWJ has every reason to confess here. Having witnessed WWX at Nightless City, and how severely WWX mistrusted him, and also facing the likelihood of WWX’s death, of course LWJ would choose this moment to confess. And whether he lived or died, LWJ would not be able to bear the thought of WWX thinking he hated him, and would want him to know the truth. Similarly, in Xuanwu Cave, LWJ chooses to sing 'wangxian' for WWX and tell him the name—not exactly a confession, but not far from it either. It is clear throughout that arc that LWJ did not share WWX's faith that the Jiangs would come and rescue them promptly, likely he believed they'd both die in that cave.

*LWJ was explicitly not helping WWX after nightless city because he felt he was right & supported him. Aside from the fact that LWJ had been actively trying to stop him only shortly beforehand, we are also told LWJ 'did not know whether he was right or wrong'. And how can he know? LWJ never uncovered the full story of what happened at Qiongqi Path, and the reader does not even know what happened with WN's second rampage at Koi Tower when all those Lan cultivators were killed, LWJ does not even know that WWX was not the one who attacked first at nightless city. LWJ doesn't know, but he protects him anyway because he believes WWX is not a bad person, and he has such faith in WWX because he loves him.