#Dual Loyalty

[cavalierzee]

America’s Forgotten Traitor’s and Double Agents

If these hostages are American why did they join the IDF?

I don’t consider you an American if you join to fight for a foreign nation.

Jake Shields

[notaplaceofhonour]

The most frustrating thing about this is that antizionists are using “don’t conflate Jews and Israel” to do exactly what “don’t conflate Jews and Israel” exists to criticize.

The entire point of that phrase, “don’t conflate Jews and Israel”, is telling people not to treat Jews with suspicion of being disloyal citizens with a hidden agenda. It’s not a denial of Israel’s Jewishness, or Jewish history & culture’s roots in Israel, or connection & solidarity between diaspora & Israeli Jews. Yet antizionists keep expecting Jews to deny all of those things, putting Jews & any claim of antisemitism under harsh scrutiny, and treating any Jews who don’t collaborate in stripping Israel (the land, the state, the people) of its Jewishness and tearing Israeli & diaspora Jews apart with suspicion of disloyalty.

In fact, the entire way these antizionists are using “Zionist” to mean “loyalty to Israel, over/against our values” is the Dual Loyalty trope.

And as if it isn’t enough for them to keep accusing Jews of Dual Loyalty, they also try to brand that Jew as “The Real Antisemite™️” by claiming the Jew they just accused of Dual Loyalty is the one actually perpetuating the Dual Loyalty trope… by having Dual Loyalty.

I also don't like the assertion that Jews are trying to conflate "criticism of Israel with antisemitism/the Israeli state with Jewishness as a whole" because you... YOU... did that first and you do it more easily than you breathe.

You interrogate every complaint of antisemitism, just to make sure it's not actually whining about someone being mean to Israel. You investigate the person's social media history to make sure they're not a Zionist. You turn around and act so enlightened and wise when you say "Right because Netanyahu wants Jewish people to think criticism of Israel is antisemitic, and he wants Jewish people to think that they have to have ties to Israel and that Israel is the only place they'll feel safe, that plays right into his hands," like you're doing this for Jewish people's benefit. Like you're not one of the people making Jews feel unsafe.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is intrinsically Jewish. By design yes. But also for the fact that it's just logically true? Most Israelis are Jewish. Most Diaspora Jews have friends and family in Israel. It's not a function of flags or national anthems. It's a function of people. Saying "Well conflating Israel with the idea of Jewishness is antisemitic," changes nothing about that. It's words with no value. It's empty air. Because what have you done to advocate for Diaspora Jewry and make them feel like they're not subordinate to Israel? What have you done to assure them that your disdain for a country that most of them have personal familial and cultural ties to is not motivated by bigotry? What have you done to include them and center their safety when advocating against Israel's policies?

Yes, the more people are antisemitic and weird about Israel to Diaspora Jews' faces, the more of them will gravitate closer to Israel. But that's not the point. The point is that if your criticisms of Israel were normal, we wouldn't have a problem. 99% of Diaspora Jews would join you. But you tell them they're not allowed to defend Israel in any context and they're not allowed to defend themselves when your "criticism" of Israel harms them. You don't want to admit that these can overlap. You just want them to silently add a rubber stamp of approval of whatever you say or they can leave.

It's clear you don't see Jews as a marginalized group. This is not how Leftists treat marginalized groups. This is how they treat the oppressor group, the dominant group. Diaspora Jews are at best an ally to Palestinian liberation. Because you don't see them as different from Israelis, you see them as the group that benefits from the oppression of Palestinians, not as a group that has nothing to do with Palestine and is historically and contemporarily marginalized by Western society, the society you live in.

And yet for all you conflate Diaspora and Israeli Jews you clearly want to keep Israel and the Diaspora divided, isolated from each other. They can't show solidarity with one another because that's (((ZIONIST COLLUSION))) and confirmation of a media controlled conspiracy or something. You want Diaspora Jews under your thumb and you want Israeli Jews dead. You're not as subtle as you think you are.

[iliveinprocrasti-nationn]

i don’t think there’s a better example of leftist antisemitism than the time i was explaining antisemitism i had personally experienced and was told “i’m sorry that upset you but also it makes sense to say that. you should read theory”

[notaplaceofhonour]

antizionist: aha see! this jew mentioned jews and israel in the same sentence! they’re conflating jews & israel! that’s zionist propaganda! that makes them one of the bad ones!

jew: “stop conflating jews and israel” is about the dual loyalty trope, in which jews are treated as inherently suspect, as if we’re operatives of israel, by nature of being jewish. what you’re doing here is exactly that—

az: no! i don’t believe all jews are suspect—just zionists! it’s not because they’re jewish; it’s because they’re connected to israel! plenty of jews are antizionists & i like them bc they hate israel!

jew: even if you label the few who happen to pass as “good ones”, by even putting jews through this test—sorting jews into “good” vs “bad” based on connections to a country, treating any jews with any tangential ties as inherently suspect, and rejecting any pushback from jews about this out-of-hand as zionist “hasbara” propaganda—in practice, what you are doing is in fact already treating jews as especially suspect by nature of being jewish, even if your theoretical reasons aren’t “they’re jewish”

jew: additionally, while you may say “i don’t hate them for being jewish, i hate them for their connection to israel” in theory, when most jews in practice say they feel connected to & care about israel & that this is an important part of what being jewish means to them—here are links to half a dozen polls from pew research to jewish orgs showing this—this overinflation of any jewish connection or identification with israel to “this person is an evil zionist pro-israel anti-palestine evil evil evil racist” is, again, in practice treating all jews with only a few very small exceptions as inherently suspect & as if they were the government of israel—which is the dual loyalty trope the phrase “don’t conflate jews with israel” exists to criticize

az: ZIONIST! >:(

az: [BLOCK]

[15-lizards]

Soooo fucking obsessed with Valya Harkonnen. It’s refreshing to see a middle aged female character so unabashedly power hungry and prideful. Caught between choosing her family name and its honor or the sisterhood and all the power and influence that comes with it. But her family loathes her and the sisterhood thinks she’s an abomination. She’s so prideful she decides to reinvent both from the ground up, she thinks she can have it all. Goes through the Agony and decides that the cause of her family is lost, to give up on them and devote herself to the advancement of the sisterhood at any cost. And that seems to be enough for a long while. But once her power is questioned by seemingly the only man who can counter her, she feels herself threatened, crawls back to her family for help. And even though she gave up on them so long ago there’s no way her pride would let her ever leave that scorned family name behind. And we’re only on episode three.

[finelythreadedsky]

i've been reading a lot about fundamental differences between homer and tragedy and one interesting thing is the preoccupation of tragedy with the conflicts of women's loyalties to their natal and marital families, which manifests in so many tragedies putting women in situations where they are forced to choose sides in conflicts between their husbands/fathers/brothers/sons (eg medea chooses her husband over her father and brother, antigone chooses her brother over her future husband and potential children, procne chooses her sister and father over her husband and son, creusa remains dedicated to her father and his lineage instead of her husband and his). women are supposed to forge chains between men by their marriages and tragedies are so often interested in what happens to those connecting links when things go sour.

and that's just totally absent in homer, there's never any tension between icarius and odysseus or between eetion and the house of priam or between autolycus and laertes or between tyndareus and either paris or menelaus and agamemnon. most of the time either father-in-law or son-in-law is totally absent from the narrative. there's nothing that would put a woman in the position of mediating between the family she was born into and the family she married into.

but you know who in homer does experience this tension between loyalty to natal and marital families? hector. in iliad 6 andromache begs him to adopt a more defensive strategy because she and their son will be totally lost if he dies, and hector speaks of having to fight for his father's glory and his own. andromache and astyanax will suffer if hector dies well and bravely fighting for a lost cause, but priam will benefit. hector even acknowledges that after troy's fall it will be andromache who suffers most, not priam or hecuba-- for them the memory of hector's glory will be a consolation, while for her it will only be more pain. hector is torn between his father and his wife, the family he was born into and the family he has created through marriage.

[crimeronan]

guys. okay. rubs my temples.

i have blacklisted every word u can Possibly think of to block posts i do not want to see and somehow keep seeing them. so Please know that this is not a shit-starting post. hence why it's unrebloggable. because i legitimately just want to communicate to people in my immediate sphere.

it is... Not Acceptable Or Appropriate... to make/reblog posts referring to a collective of "jews" or "jewish people" in response to israel's genocide of palestine.

what i mean by this are posts along the lines of "what jews don't realize is-" "i wish american jews knew-" "can't wait to watch jewish bloggers come up with the worst takes imaginable-" etc etc etc.

it is similarly Not Acceptable Or Appropriate to refer to rabbis, synagogues, jewish practice, and other aspects of judaism/jewish culture as a monolithic hivemind that's loyal to israel. this includes "you're all being brainwashed by your rabbis/synagogues" "synagogues are zionist institutions" "stop speaking hebrew until your people stop committing war crimes" etc etc etc.

your kneejerk reaction (if u are a leftist goy) will likely be along the lines of: but it's simply like referring to a collective of british people or american people wrt imperialism, colonialism, and war crimes. you don't mean LITERALLY all jews, just like you don't mean literally all brits or americans.

this is unfortunately a false equivalence because of the antisemitic history and violence behind the idea of Monolithic Jews and Dual Loyalties. there is a quick overview of some of The Problems here; jewish scholarship and discussion of this is incredibly broad and varied... because jewish people are incredibly broad and varied.

like i'm fucking begging. you have Got to knock it off. i was gonna say something snide about how it's telling that i'm seeing a lot more posts About The Jews than about the fundamentalist christians who fanatically support israel's right-wing fascist govt, but like.... god i don't care i don't care i don't want to be writing this. It Just Sucks.

That's It. It Just Sucks

while i'm here, since i don't plan to talk about this anymore unless i have important resources to share: ACTUAL helpful things you can do are to keep an eye on the news and communicate with your own governments. for americans (just bc i am american) -- the biden administration has pledged to work with israel to allow humanitarian aid into gaza. it's important that the public pressure for that to happen continues & that the documentation of what's happening in palestine continues.

the more you guys turn your issue into an issue with "the jews" or "jewish people," the more time we're going to waste explaining why this is not acceptable or appropriate. which is frustrating because there is shit out there that Matters A Whole Lot Fucking More Right Now.

so keep talking about what matters. and please please PLEASE think for two seconds before you make any posts referencing jewish people.

[eretzyisrael]

A Jewish-Australian Army Reserves officer from Australia could have his security clearance revoked because of his ties to the Jewish State.

Due to divided loyalty between Australia and Israel, risk of being influenced by the Mossad, and failure to disclose interactions with Israelis, a Jewish Australian Army Reserves officer’s security clearance was on Thursday recommended to be revoked in an Administrative Review Tribunal ruling.

The ruling came in response to an appeal by the officer against a 2023 Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) Adverse Security Assessment recommending stripping Negative Vetting Level 2 security clearance because of concerns over his loyalty to Australia, susceptibility to foreign influence, and compliance with security holder obligations.

Based on two interviews with the officer, ASIO had determined that he had demonstrated a higher level of loyalty to Israel than Australia. The tribunal concluded that the officer held “divided loyalties between his obligations as a security clearance holder and his faith and Jewish cultural identity,” though noted that he had not been disloyal to Australia.

[abislwise]

Child.

The reason everyone is laughing at you right now is because dual loyalty is one of the most famous and widely-known antisemitic charges against Jews and has been for literally thousands of years. It happens constantly from all sides. Every time you demand that a random Jew denounce Israel, you're doing it.

The other reason everyone is laughing at you is that Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar have been publicly doing this for years and it's been a big part of the news cycle every single time it happens.

You're literally throwing a tantrum over not getting proof that the sky is blue, basically; the adults can just look around and see it.

I'm also really not sure why you keep tagging this "conservatives." Are you conservative?

BEHOLD, TUMBLR LEFTISM

"Punch a Nazi!"

"Zionists are Nazis!"

"All Jews are Zionists!"

"Punch a Jew! I'm not antisemitic though uwu"

"And don't forget to wish the good Jews Happy Chanukah this year! #HappyHolidaysForEVERYONE"

(Credit to the original author who was too worried about reprisals to post.)

[focaccia-nose]

This comment on one of my recent posts pretty much sums up what I am going through as an american Jew.

My post was about the pain I have experienced navigating within my community and in leftist circles. It was about how I feel unsafe and hurt by people I thought were close to me. It was about how the escapism I was using to cope is being infiltrated by antisemitic rhetoric.

I was at a house show the evening of October 7th and people in my small leftist town CHEERED for the murder and rape of people like me. How am I supposed to feel safe knowing that lives like mine are considered disposable? That nobody would have cared if I was gunned down at a music festival, just because citizens in Gaza have it worse. That doesn't cancel out the fact that Jewish people everywhere are struggling. Just because it's not as bad as being in a war zone, doesn't mean that it's not real.

It's been said so many times that many things can be simultaneously true that I want to tear my hair out.

This is the ultimate gaslighting and so reductionist that I don't even know how to where to begin. The idea that we all lived together peacefully before Israel was established is bullshit.

If your response to suffering is to invalidate their lived experiences, make fun of them, put words in their mouth, or accuse them of faking it, you are fucked in the head.

Propaganda is working on you.

[roughentumble]

okay thots on this. do we think jaskier is going to have to kill radovid? as like the conclusion to that whole love affair

[fromchaostocosmos]

Wow they really can not come up anything new. It is the same antisemitic conspiracies and accusations recycled over and over.

[beliscary]

admitting to yourself the 5k you have is not nearly enough and you'll need like another 20k. at least🕺

[lizbethborden]

I honestly am going to try giving up on talking about antisemitism in any context except private convos with other Jewish people. The truth is that virtually no one outside of Jewish communities cares. No one. They didn't care before, they don't care now, and they won't care after. Some of the smartest people I know on here and in life do not care, have never cared, and will only pretend to care the next time there's a "punching Nazis" meme on the dash. They do not care about this deeply embedded bigotry because the truth is that antisemitism is a central pillar of, well, virtually everything everywhere, and to interrogate that is to interrogate a foundational aspect of their culture, religion, and society, which no one is interested in doing, even on a website where the majority of people at least pay lip service to deconstructing societal biases and institutional oppression. It is much simpler and more convenient to not care. So, keep on not caring, I guess. I'm not going to forget it. Neither will the other Jewish people around you.

[a-god-in-ruins-rises]

thank god! i can finally sleep knowing my nation is being subverted by foreigners to protect foreign interests!

[intern-seraph]

gonna be real here, i'm almost glad that i mask regularly bc it hides my very Ethnic Jewish Nose and rn it's definitely not safe for jews