#CONSTANT racist microaggressions

[godgavemenoname]

our roommate acts like an actual child. how the fuck do you survive to adulthood so conflict avoidant and so fucking fragile...?! i have NEVER encountered an adult who acts like this irl. it's like they manifested physically from the "adult liberal white gays who exclusively read heartstopper" area of the internet. ive never liked when people use 'tenderqueer' as an insult and i still don't love it but i understand it now. i am about to start ripping my fucking hair out.

[tariah23]

The white girl at my job and her constant onslaught of micro-aggressions…

[official-saul-goodman]

This is mainly my observation as a non black person watching the reactions of other non black people and especially white people to the show Interview With The Vampire, they are a result of a fundamental misunderstanding regarding the idea of horror.

in a world of white dominated hollywood horror movies that mostly contain gore and white familial tragedy and abuse, none of which ever ever include the concept of race, misogyny and homophobia, racialised misogyny, and racialised homophobia- people cannot digest a horror tv show wherein the main character is a black man who is always and forever a victim of systematic, social, and microaggressive racism. people, specifically white people, have always been uncomfortable with being shown the extent of anti black racism in a way that isnt heavily sanitised or sympathetic to the white cause. to white people, the genre of horror simply does not include race cause they have not experienced the horrors of colonialist genocidal white supremacist anti black racism. and i highlight anti black racism because it is the subject of the show, as well as being a topic that is discussed vaguely by non black people while still being the most perpetuated form of racism from a global standpoint.

to white people especially, as the people who are responsible for the worst crimes committed against black people, anti blackness is just one of life's constants that should not be addressed directly or in detail, so to depict anti black racism so openly as a part of the genre of horror is incomprehensible to them. they dont want to be shown even a smidgen of exactly the kind of shit their ancestors and peers are responsible for, cause horror to them must just be things that they relate to and nothing regarding race at all cause it causes them to confront their comfortable positions. this is the same reason why you see white people saying jordan peele's movies are 'too hard to understand' despite being very easy to understand.

horror to people of colour is a concept that intrinsically includes racialised violence, its a constant presence like a rusted nail hovering near an open wound. and white people reject this. which is why they decided to degrade and miscontrue the purpose of iwtv and call it 'just another self important show thats racist and not worth watching'. cause to them horror is meant to be enjoyable, they want limbs chopped off not the actions of their white ancestors coming back to remind and haunt them. even though horror is a genre that is meant to fill you with... horror. horror to white people does not include the politics of racism, cause they see horror as an apolitical genre (obviously incorrect when everything and the kitchen sink is political naturally).

to the people of color, it is a moment of feeling seen, to see a main character ( a flawed man a pained man) experience the horror of all round racial discrimination, to see the horror of him being dismissed and exploited by the white people around him, the moment of witnessing yourself in the other when you see Louis and Claudia being so utterly sabotaged by so many forces, the way they are pushed to making irreversible devastating decisions cause they think they have no other choice to achieve an escape from a multitude of things they suffer through, the manipulation and abuse they had to become accustomed to. this is the horror, the horror of being immortalised against your will and lack of choices you were given, the horror of being forced to be subjected to racialised misogynistic and homophobic violence for eternity. being forced to live with all these memories and no means of forgetting. all this while enduring the way a white man belittles them for even suggesting that he might be racist while he expresses racist micro agressions (both lestat and daniel). this is real horror that hits home, horror you want to devour as a person of colour cause you want to see more of this story continue, to see what becomes of this living limbo that Louis, Claudia, and eventually Armand have to go through.

and as most white people cannot fathom this, cannot relate, they dismiss this version of horror that focuses on racism as a core element from the perspective of a black man and forever young black girl. they dismiss the show as just being tone deaf colour blind casting cause they didnt even see the trailer or try to understand this show. the white guilt is a shield they use to defend themselves against the frank and honest depiction of anti black racism from the perspective of a black man. they do not want to understand. they want sanitised, digestible depictions of racism so the horror remains fun for them.

even though this show is literally categorised as horror, and has all the hallmarks of classic horror including the camp styling, the blood, the gore, the supernatural, and the violence - the single fact that the show's core theme is based around racism from the perspective of a gay black vampire man is enough for them to declassify as horror in their minds. cause people of colour and especially black gay men must always be shown as having a good time to dissuade the guilt of white people and their responsibility is establishing the systems that oppress gay black men. speak no evil, see no evil, hear no evil, and the evil is not there anymore.

i may have more thoughts on this that i'll express later but thats all i have for now.

[leikeliscomet]

“But We Love Martha Jones!” - The Doctor Who Fandom’s Selective Memory of Racism

Be aware that this article contains explicit examples of anti-black racism and misogynoir.

Chapter 2 - Utopia-ish

The constant nitpicking of Martha Jones for reasons white female companions could get away with was blatant anti-black racism. Let’s get that bit clear first and foremost. As a Black person in fandom, watching Black characters get torn apart while never being given the grace of their non-Black castmates is an experience that’s too common. Microaggressions are more subtle so the easiest way to shut down any mentions of racism is to accuse Black fans of making things up or telling us “Well it’s not like REAL racism”. Luckily Doctor Who Tumblr birthed the Martha Jones affirmative action and Aunt Jemima “memes” so I can cross both covert and overt racism off the list. As mentioned in extensive detail in the previous chapter, plus the various Martha Jones articles written before me, the treatment Martha experienced was racist. I don’t care if you personally didn’t like her. I don’t care that you missed Rose. I don’t care that Ten is your smol bean. Martha’s treatment was racist. Freema Agyeman’s treatment was racist. It might not have been everyone. It might not have been you personally. But it was there. The fandom can never be a safe space for POC, specifically Black people if this elephant in the room can’t be addressed over a decade after it arrived.

On paper, you’d assume Martha’s rep was good because “at least she wasn’t a Black stereotype”. Some fans praised her for having a present father, not speaking MLE and not being from the ends. This goes into respectability politics but the fandom’s weirdness about Black Brits and class is not the point of this article. The point is the revisionist history of how Martha was really treated and to do that it helps to know what Black tropes are. The Mammy trope is a Black woman whose main purpose is to serve her white counterparts and during slavery, she mainly cared for the slave owners' children. She is usually fat, dark skin and asexual, not as a representation of those things but as a statement of how if she isn’t used for sexual exploitation like the Jezebel (the promiscuous, reckless, sexualised Black woman), she has no sexual value at all. Her value is serving the needs of others only. Martha doesn’t fit this trope in theory but in practice, she fulfils the sub-categories of this trope both in show and fandom: the disposable Black (girl)friend trope. She is used as Ten’s emotional punching bag before he’s ready for Donna and then Rose again. She had to endure edgy moody S3 Ten so no one else had to. She’s the excuse people use to deflect any critical analysis of how race was handled in RTD1. She’s the fandom’s excuse to deflect from their own racial biases. Racism? No way! Everybody loves Martha Jones! What do you mean?

Some parts of the fandom have tried to mend things by suggesting Martha be paired with other doctors or romantically shipping her with other characters a bit better than Mickey Smith. But does this hold up? As much as I’m a big fan NineMartha as a concept and as someone who honestly saw one-off characters like Riley Vashtee from 42 or Tallulah from Daleks in Manhattan having way more romantic chemistry with Martha than Mickey ever did, simply re-shipping Martha isn’t enough. Doctor Who’s racism isn't exclusive to one doctor, one series or one era and new Martha pairings suggest the issue was “right person, wrong doctor” instead of what the issue actually was: racism. Moffat and Chibnall’s eras weren’t full of golden Black representation either so I doubt the Martha issue would’ve magically disappeared under those two. From Nine’s hostility to Mickey, to Twelve’s hostility to Danny Pink to Thirteen handing a South Asian Spymaster to the Nazis and Eleven only travelling with POC in comics most fans haven’t heard of and being besties with Churchill, simply putting Martha with another Doctor isn’t the serve fans think it is. Even RoseMartha seems like putting a bandaid on a bullet hole. If it's not enough for Martha to be compared to Rose, put down in favour of Rose, told she isn’t Rose and told she's worse than Rose in fandom and in show over and over and over, she has to be shipped with Rose too. Martha’s a great character… as long as you can tie her to Rose… again. Even in my own article I have to talk about Rose because Rose is centred in what was supposed to be Martha’s story. A doctor-to-be Black girl from London with a hectic family meets a Time Lord and gets abducted by space rhino police at work in one day. Her main conflict isn’t balancing work and time traveller life, or fighting to get her family back together, or seeing what’s out there in the universe - it's that she isn’t “Rose” enough. The Mammy and her sons’ main thing in common is simple; how well they serve and centre the white characters. In attempts to mend Martha’s treatment she is still only valued in relation to white characters. She should’ve been with Eleven because he would’ve fucked a Black woman. Or maybe Dilfy Twelve. Or a sapphic romance with another female companion who she saw twice or doesn’t actually know. Or maybe Ten in an alternate universe where he supports #nubianqueens. None of this is done to explore sexuality or romance with Black women and is definitely not to centre Black lesbianism and bisexuality. It’s Mammy with a dash of Jezebel. It's adding romantic and sexual value on top of physical and emotional value like a crappy meal deal.

I’m tired of Black women being treated as extensions of white women both in media and in real life. I’m tired of our value being determined by how well we serve white people emotionally, physically, platonically and sexually. And I'm even more tired of white feminism especially in this fandom. It would be so easy to label this article as anti-Rose, anti-Ten or anti-Tenrose to invalidate my whole racial analysis because it's the easy way out. I’ll admit I like both characters individually but not the ship but this isn’t something I decided on since birth - it's my conclusion as a Black fan in a predominantly white fandom, watching a predominantly white show, watching the first companion of my race be told she isn’t good enough compared to the white characters, and that the hatred of her is justified for the greater good of its popular white ship. Black fans can never have this conversation without being told we’re “pitting women against each other” and that Martha and Rose hugged once in S4 so everything's hunky dory. Martha’s happy that Ten found Rose again so what’s the problem? It sends a clear message that Black women’s pain will never matter a much as white women’s feelings. “Rose is amazing! Martha’s amazing! Stop pitting women against women!” but who was pit against who in the first place? These faux girl power posts fail to acknowledge the overlap of race and gender which separates the treatment of Black and white women. It fails to acknowledge Martha’s hate was rooted in anti-black racism. It fails to acknowledge the anti-Rose pushback was in response to how the show and fandom convinced us Rose was the untouchable bar this Black woman failed to meet. It fails to acknowledge Freema Agyeman the actress was targeted not just her character. It fails because the female empowerment rhetoric that leaves the Black ones at the bottom of the pile only “empowers” women of a certain demographic.

The harassment Martha experienced was swept under the rug of “stan wars” but it was so much deeper than that. I’m not saying Martha stans are angels but there was no “Great Stan War” because the sides were never even. At the end of the day no amount of “Martha’s better than Rose” tweets will ever compare to the fact that Martha hate was rooted in misogynoir. Rose was and still is considered the greatest companion of nuwho, whilst Martha is constantly erased and undervalued. Rose’s video views and hashtags have always been bigger than Martha’s. Amy and Clara came after Martha but still surpassed her in popularity and got plenty of fan edits of “The Girl Who Waited” and “The Impossible Girl” whilst Martha was conveniently skipped in the companion lineup. The fandom’s bias still shines clearly in favour of Rose over Martha. Rose’s jealousy towards other women is justifiable and just the ups and downs of a 19-year-old whilst Martha’s is entitled bitterness. Rose’s flaws are compelling character moments and depth, Martha’s are “holding her back from being a good companion”. Hell, even Donna calling out Ten’s BS was entertaining accountability whilst Martha was just the angry Black woman. Fans will weaponise Rose’s working-class roots to imply a pro-Martha bias, failing to acknowledge the working-class to poor background of the average Black Brit, the anti-blackness middle-class Black people are not spared from, the many working-class Black characters of the show like Mickey, Bill, Rigsy and Ryan or how most fans don’t consider Martha middle class because she doesn’t fit the white British cultural stereotypes. You can't be the most loved and hated at the same time. The hard truth is Billie Piper wasn’t racially abused by Martha stans but Freema was absolutely racially abused by Rose’s and the effects of this are still around. Go into Martha Jones tags today and you’ll see snarky posts of how Ten could never love another companion like Rose. Even when Freema bravely shared her experiences of literal racism, fans were quick to yell “But I wanted Ten and Rose though” as a justification for years of misogynoir. Again, we need to address the elephant in the room instead of covering our eyes and ears to act like it’s not there. A Black character and actress was collateral damage in order for a popular white ship to rise and whilst I’m not an anti, I as a Black Doctor Who fan, I’ll never be a supporter. At the end of the day, only one of these actresses is still carrying the burden of misogynoir over 10 years since RTD1 ended. A lonely walk across the Earth yet again.

<- Chapter 1 Chapter 3 ->

[fitsofdespair]

i have hesitated to say anything before now. in part because i removed myself from fandom discourse and really from actively discussing iwtv a year ago. i consider it all a lose-lose situation.

but also because i’m generally of the opinion that black fans don’t need people to be their white saviors, least of all me. black people have never been saved by white people. they were never just given anything when it comes to strides in equality, they fought for it and still fight for it, against constant violent pushback every step of the way. only instead of the good ole’ days when racists just called those fighting for equality uppity, they’re now “bullies” for daring to call you out on your shit after the repeated condescension and the resulting harassment you’ve exhibited towards them.

in this day and age the word bully has zero meaning anymore. i mean come on, melania trump calls people mean about her husband bullies. elon musk thinks he’s being bullied by twitter users, though he clearly holds all the power and is absolutely the problem. its become a meaningless word that goliaths use to call davids because they won’t use the real word they actually want to say. some of these popular blogs are not being bullied, they’re being held accountable for their own actions.

it’s pretty disgusting the number of you who decided to identify strongly with these users that not only fail to question their own racial biases but have gone so far as to suggest black people don’t face racism anymore. this is so fucked. tbh it can be argued in many ways white people, especially in the deep south where i’m from, are inherently raised steeped in racism, even if its not direct. just because your family aren’t ostensibly racist doesn’t mean they didn’t bake their own little prejudices into your upbringing and being raised in your environment didn’t encourage them. even if you don’t see yourself as racist, you have to unlearn all this shit, even if it never once occurred to you that you are part of it. just cause you believe in equality and don’t hate people for their color or cultural background does not make you free of perpetuating microaggressions against them. this applies to fans across the world of course. (like for you white euro iwtv fans, you may say you have no problem with black people but i’ve heard some wild things some of yall have to say about the turks.)

i understand that probably half or more of you are not usamericans. but no matter what environment you live in, no matter where you were raised, there is no excuse for your behavior. just because YOU don’t see racism in your day to day life or are in the more likely situation, too blindly comfortable in your place in society to notice it right in front of your face, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist as a constant presence in other parts of the world or isn’t deeply ensconced in online rhetoric.

so for you white iwtv fans who can’t be fucked to mention let alone defend people you, in many cases once called friend, against the absolute horseshit your current comrades are spewing wrapped up in their nice safe cocoons of victimhood, i hope you do some serious soul searching to figure out if this is who you are, a person too cowardly to call out a friend because it might cost you their friendship. a person quick to condemn others on hearsay because you couldn’t be fucked to wonder am i on the right side of this? and if you do manage to get wise and change your mind, remember its not unforgivable to say, you know what? i was wrong. i wrote in an old post that the hallmark of being a functional adult is changing your views accordingly when you learn new information or even just ruminate on what you know (i myself was a little bitch about ep 5 when it first dropped until i had to sit down and ask myself why i was actually feeling some kind of way about it). dying on a hill is not all its cracked up to be. being told you’re wrong is not always a personal attack and its often an opportunity for improvement if you can be bothered to genuinely hear other people out. an alarming number from all walks of life never figure that out. for my part, i am still learning and hope i never stop learning.

while that sentiments all nice and gooey (i mean them, but i understand its still sacharine to put out there), i am still guilty for not having directly written anything about this until now. and thats on me and i earned any flack i get for that. again, i am more of the mindset that black people don’t need white spokespeople, but that doesn’t mean they'll mind allies. and as a sidebar, going out of your way to say you are rising “above the noise” or “ignoring the drama” is absolutely your right, but it does not make you superior. it just makes you complacent with the status quo. i mean as long as you get to squee!! about anything and everything who cares about other people, right?

[unforth]

I've debated multiple times doing something like cataloging racist microaggressions I see in the danmei tags and making a post about it. I generally see at least one a day, and I block the worst offenders. But in the end I'm a white USAdian and it's really not my place. I'm sure I don't even catch them all.

It's a real issue and I've seen a lot of anecdotal evidence that it drives Chinese and Chinese diaspora fans out of participating in Westernized Tumblr danmei fandom, and that's utterly unacceptable.

One of the most common ones I see is how people talk about the character names. For example:

[Image ID: screen cap of a text post. It reads: "This all came about when I was looking at SVSSS memes on Ao3 and went like "My friends nor coworkers would get heads or tails of what in the world these alphabet smash assortment mean let alone know that they're referencing Soecific individuals or novels." End ID]

THIS IS A MICROAGGRESSION. For fuck's sake, people, acting like the names are ridiculous, incomprehensible, outside of what "friends and colleagues" could comprehend, is RACIST AS FUCK. And I see people say stuff like this constantly.

"But I only meant I was struggling--" THEN WHY DID YOU ASSUME OTHER PEOPLE WOULD STRUGGLE THE SAME WAY? STILL RACIST

"But I could say that about the abbreviations in any--" BUT YOU SAID IT ABOUT THIS FANDOM SPECIFICALLY AND CONTEXT FUCKING MATTERS AND IN THIS CONTEXT IT'S RACIST.

"But it was on my personal blo--" LOOK IF YOU WANT TO BE RACIST ON YOUR PERSONAL BLOG I CAN'T STOP YOU BUT IF YOU TAG ORIGINAL POSTS INTO MAIN FANDOM TAGS THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WILL SEE YOU AND KNOW YOU ARE RACIST.

The person who posted the above, when I said it was a microaggression, demanded to know how. So, for them and everyone else in this fucking fandoms, I present what any of them could have learned by googling the term. The definition of microaggression:

(Source)

[Image ID: a dictionary entry for the term "microaggression." It reads: "noun. A comment or action that subtle and often unconsciously or unintentionally expresses a prejudiced attitude toward a member if a marginalized group (such as a racial minority)." End ID]

What that screen cap says about names is literally the textbook definition of a microaggression.

Chinese names are just names. The way Chinese sounds is just the way a language sounds. Cultivation is inherently based in Eastern culture and cannot be completely divorced from that context even for a cute AU. I'm so tired of seeing posts saying things like "MXTX just stole the plot of (insert Western myth/folktale/fable here)". Do yall realize how fucking racist you're being? Do yall realize how fucking racist even I've probably been by accident because I'm also a dumb white USAdian?

I've been holding this post in for like a year, but the person who posted that screen cap, who doubled-down by posting a non-apology to all the MXTX main tags, and who acted like I'd said something insane when I told them it was a microaggression...they're apparently my last fucking straw.

DO BETTER, WHITE WESTERN DANMEI FANDOM. We all need to learn and listen and knock it the fuck off already. Me included.

Please, please listen when people say "check yourself." Seeing this stuff everyday is exhausting even for ME and I'm not even in the marginalized group. Chinese people (including diaspora) who stay in the fandom here despite the constant deluge are strong as fuck and they do not deserve this and, as a white person, I'm so so sorry white people are like this.

[punkeropercyjackson]

Afrolatino Jason needs to be written not as a black Jason but Jason as a black character.Jason within canon already has all the qualities for a good black character except acttually being of african heritage and this is where the problems with fanon potrayals come in because they change him too much and at the same time,don't actually employ blackness into him as anything but an aesthetic or quirk

As an afrolatino and afrolatina(genderfluid and bigender)who started reading comics due to starting to selfship with Jason because i watched Utrh,it hurts but also makes me so fucking angry that these people have the audacity to act like they're doing it out of love for Jason when they don't even love him enough to respect his personality,coping mechanisms and relathionships because they only care about how hot he is and that's all that was needed to ruin his entire character in fan content for years and years and years,all because they can't handle unconventional characters despite their self-proclaimed freakiness.Adding 'Snowbunny' to your list of fetishes you have for Jason isn't representation and you've all treated him worse than DC ever has and yeah,i'm including Ditf

Stop taking Duke from Jason and Jason from Duke-Stop taking EVERYTHING from Duke to give it your ugly ass white boys Jason would hate anyway.Stop hypermasculinizing and oversexualizing him.Stop making him stupid and uncultured.Stop making him a fucking misogynist and animalistic.Stop forcing him to be best friends with Roy and Tim when he's never liked them that much and he never will and it makes sense with his character.Stop just slapping melanin onto him and calling it black character design.Stop being fake or just don't headcanon him as black-latino at all because it's not your call to begin with and my nonblack and white afrolatino Jason hc'ing friends started seeing him that way because i told them why i did and they thought it made sense and wanted to be supportive too and a racist ass of an ex-friend immediately jumped to 'Um but he's got anger issues and violent tendencies so ion know :/' without even hearing me out first when I'M the one who's actually a nigga and she did/said tons of microaggressions i didn't pick up on and started whining about me being 'mean' and 'innapropriate' for getting her ass post-realization and making a slave master joke at her expense for speaking over me on purpose

This is exactly what i mean cause that's how Y'ALL react to being called out on YOUR microaggressions towards Jason,both the afrolatino interpretation and canon compliant Jason with your ableist stereotyping and harmful anti-recovery headcanons(see the hypermasculinizing and oversexualizition i mentioned for both of those),and Duke and Cass too although she is nonblack she's worth mentioning since i brought Snowbunnies which are rooted in racialized misogyny and y'all need to stop feminizing and infantalizing her.She's a canon tomboy and she grown too and more 'unhinged' as y'all put it than Jason is textually and him and Duke are either equally chaotic or Duke is even more chaos.Back to reactions,nobody says jackshit about the 'Jason fucked Talia' jokes when that scene was csa,incest and anti-arab propaganda all in one or 'Jason grew up to date his brothers exes' that's deadass just child grooming that ALSO relies on thee most misogynoiristic incarnation of Kory ever and the constant gender essentialism and ableist termology thrown at Jason that he CANONICALLY defies and even expresses to be against.But when black Batfam fandom members get mean about the Duke exclusion and Cass' too out of poc solidarity,suddenly we need to chill and stop making things that deep and learn to curate to curate our experience

No.YOU need to curate your experience.Find the story you want instead of gentrifying the Batfam and grooming minors into it.Duke is a Batboy,a Robin and a Batkid so he's part of Batfam lore.Duke is Jason's favorite brother so he's a part of Jason's story and black solidarity is essential to writing a black character.Which is what afrolatino Jason is SUPPOSED to be and if additional Bats are needed,then it should be black ones like Duke.Afrolatino Jason HAS to be a black character.He needs Duke.He needs black Outlaws.He needs to love woc in general but especially black women.He needs to defy male expectations,not live up to them.He needs connections to his black roots,including his apperance

Jason Todd needs to be a black character,not just a mischaracterized mess that dosen't appreciate him and what makes irl black people see him the same as us.Afrolatino Jason was made by us,FOR us and you have no place headcanoning him that way if you aren't going to do it like we do.Afrolatino Jason is not your fetish and canon Jason dosen't wanna be seen as one to begin with.PUT SOME RESPECT TO HIS NAME!!!!!!!!

[cantsayidont]

I think setting STAR TREK: DISCOVERY and STRANGE NEW WORLDS in the TOS era was a questionable idea for a variety of reasons, but one of the more troublesome is their treatment of Spock, which opens some cans of worms I don't think there would have been a good way to handle even if the writers weren't intent on making bad and reactionary creative choices in other areas.

In TOS, most of the Enterprise crew, and really the majority of the Starfleet characters we're shown, are exceedingly racist to Spock with disconcerting regularity. Of the regular cast, I think the only ones who aren't overtly nasty to Spock at least some of the time are probably Uhura and Sulu; they get frustrated with him at certain points, but generally because he's a difficult and inflexible supervisor rather than due to racial animus. A lot of the rest of the crew is openly hostile, and McCoy routinely addresses him with slurs in front of the bridge crew. Kirk tolerates and sometimes participates in this racist abuse, and the only times he seems to take it very seriously are when it threatens to become an operational problem (as in "Balance of Terror"). The main feature that comes to characterize the bond that develops between Kirk and Spock is not that Kirk is significantly more tolerant, but that he will usually (not always) at least listen to Spock's point of view, which the rest of the crew is very reluctant to do (most pointedly in "The Galileo Seven"), and can be persuaded to respect his judgment, which Spock values even though Kirk's attitude and behavior still often make him uncomfortable.

This kind of space-racism toward nonhuman Federation citizens is not necessarily a structural element of STAR TREK (unlike anti-indigenous racism, which definitely is), but it is a structural element of Spock's character. Spock spends a lot of TOS teetering on the brink of a nervous breakdown, and it's tempting (though not canonical) to read his decision to pursue Kolinhar in the beginning of STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE as a response to the stress of being on the Enterprise (fleeing to become a monk!). Even where Spock is not enduring racial slurs and constant microaggressions, you can see how that treatment, both in his youth on Vulcan and as an adult in Starfleet, has shaped his personality. Indeed, this is something I think to which fans of Spock have responded strongly over the years, because his alienation and stress are very relatable for LGBT people, people of color, Muslim and Jewish people (despite STAR TREK's canonical antisemitism and Islamophobia), and autistic people. This doesn't mean STAR TREK stories necessarily have to show Spock being tormented, which is often painful to watch, but if Spock had not been tormented in these ways, he would be a very different person than the character viewers know and love.

Making Spock a regular in DISCOVERY and later STRANGE NEW WORLDS thus presents the writers with a problem: Treating Spock the way he's treated in TOS would be uncomfortable, but avoiding it creates a tension with TOS that the newer shows obviously don't know how to resolve.

Prior to ENTERPRISE, the general presumption about the TOS era (which is stated as fact in some of the novels) was that having mixed-species crews is relatively new for Starfleet, and that the problems Spock faces stem from his colleagues never having lived and worked with an "alien" before and not knowing how to not be weird about it. (ENTERPRISE essentially transferred that idea to Archer's era, where T'Pol gets similar treatment.) In DISCO and SNW, however, we see that many Starfleet vessels have mixed crews, including officers (like Saru) who are much more obviously nonhuman than Spock is, and have for a while. So, how are we to read the events of TOS, with which DISCO and SNW still want to (uneasily) coexist? Is Kirk's Enterprise just a lot more racist than Pike's? That's possible, I guess, but how many STAR TREK fans really want to canonize the idea that Kirk and his crew are unusually intolerant by Starfleet standards? Are we to presume that SNW means to soft-retcon the hostility and constant microaggressions Spock experiences in TOS, shifting the entire onus for his twitchy alienation to his upbringing on Vulcan and to Sarek (who DISCO reiterates is a tremendous dick)? That would be sadly consistent with the disdain with which modern STAR TREK media treats Vulcan (and with the antisemitism of the modern shows), but it's a pretty bitter pill for anyone who thinks Vulcans are neat or cool, which used to be an uncontroversial majority opinion among STAR TREK viewers and writers.

The more sensible answer would have been to just dodge the issue entirely by staying further away from TOS and the period in which it takes place. There are other periods of the TREK timeline that are still largely unexplored (like the early 24th century era of the Enterprise-C), and there's always the option of moving further forward in time, as DISCOVERY eventually did. However, CBS seems very insistent on making heavy-handed appeals to nostalgia that require riding the coattails of TOS, even where that just doesn't seem like a good idea creatively.

My sense with DISCOVERY and SNW is that the producers would really like to simply redo TOS in a manner more consistent with their current vision, but that the decidedly mixed reactions to the alternate timeline JJ Abrams movies has made them gunshy about just declaring that openly. So, it seems they're instead trying to back into it with a kind of death-by-a-thousand-retcons approach, seeking to sand off both the uncomfortable aspects of TOS and stuff the producers and/or the network don't like (like Spock's gay-coding — SNW's determination to no-homo him is pronounced, albeit unpersuasive). I think I would find that vexing even if the producers' vision weren't frequently more jingoistic and racist than TOS, which it often is.

[tododeku-or-bust]

i’m gonna be honest, the thought of considering all of my friends of color as part of a numerical list that i can use to prove to myself that i’m truly socially conscious feels really gross to me and i think any white person who truly cares about their friends and thinks of them as real human beings would feel the same, so your poll might have skewed results lol

This is actually a great example! let's break this down together so you can think a little deeper.

1) is that what the question is really asking you to do? Or is it asking you to consider how many of your friends of color (however many you have) genuinely feel comfortable speaking to you as a white person about these things? Because part of friendship is being able to be honest with each other. If I can't approach you when you're racist or when I'm suffering from racism... How safe do I really think you are?

2) consider why you centered your OWN discomfort and that of your white peers, rather than taking that next step and considering "how might my friends of color feel about this". Because I can talk to my Black friends bout racism. Got a lot of brown friends that we bonded over the experience- "that white people shit" is real. But often, for white people, bringing up racism with them can break a relationship. What if your friends think that about you? Have you ever thought to reinforce that you're safe to be around and open with?

3) consider why you thought to check me, a Black person, on how I posited a question that many of us think about daily in our lives- about how you have to turn on "your white people voice" in front of white peers that might genuinely think you're their buddy while you're biting your tongue at their constant microaggressions bc you don't want to "rock the boat". Doesn't sound like full friendship to me.

"I don't see color" is a racist statement, no matter how graciously you type it out. I want you to genuinely consider that.

[rathologic]

glad I had a little more time to parse this one in text, but the idea I was getting at with being uncomfortable at The Background Racism being completely unchanging in patho2 is that I think it presents an idea that that racism is an unavoidable fact and there's no way for the townsfolk to do better. which is in line with the story P2 wants to tell about the Town and Kin being incompatible, but is such a deeply worrying idea in the world of real social issues... like much like here it's a belief systemically and socially embedded in the Town and one vital to the exploitation of the Kin, but the game doesn't acknowledge potential decolonial or anti-racist actions outside of the character writing of Artemy possibly dealing with his alienation from his heritage, especially b/c its final choice is also fully on the haruspex. nobody else in the game has to or is even asked to put in work (for the millionth time, in the game where side characters don't do anything concrete); the entire social slate gets wiped clean by the Special Guy and suddenly the historical tension of the settlement isn't a problem anymore. while, and because, it's presented as its immodifiable fact in the course of the game. the way that artemy always has the internal option to choose how he feels about the Kin, but not the options to tell someone else that their feelings about the Kin are wrong, is something I think a more cognizant game could have used as a statement (in connection to how racism affects real-world people of color; by all means this shouldn't be artemy's responsibility! the microaggressions do reflect, as others have discussed, life in a racist society. talking about their use as a device of constant emphasis for the "incompatible parts" idea here) but in patho2 unaddressed it becomes the same "side characters don't do anything" that afflicts every area of its writing... and while there are plenty of other things for characters to be worried about during pathologic, it's still an ideological stance to assert that decolonization is unimportant during a crisis situation (where, again, it's a major plot point that the plague hits the Kin hardest due to the Olgimskys' organization of the Termitary and social/economic control over its workers), one that is absolutely used IRL to hinder any movement towards change. basically any character development would have helped avoid this. 😐

[daydark4k]

Going on a bit of a rant here about some problems ive noticed about bootwt.

I feel like it's become increasingly exhausting to be in this community, and ill explain why because i have left it behind.

A lot amazing work has been done by the community to make it a safer space for minorities, but in a way this has put the community on a pedestal. It feel like everyone is expected to be an activist or they are a bad person nobody wants around. 

There's a huge difference in being an ally, and an activist. An ally is someone that will speak against shit when they come across it, do their best to educate themself, stand behind people in every way they can.

An activist goes a step further and seeks out ways to make change. Organizing charity events, going out of their way to educate others, uplift voices and being constantly posting about issues as they come out. Taking on the problems of others is not an easy thing mentally especially if you have your own issues.

Are you a bad person for not making a twitter post when some shitty cc says a stupid thing again? Bigotry is constantly happening and will continue, no matter what the community is like. But, if you were to watch the news, get overwhelmed and have to turn it off instead of tweeting about it, you wouldnt be a bad person right? The victim on the news could have their entire life changed by a tramatic event and you cant even have the decency to watch and give your empathy?

There's this overwhelming crushing expectation in this community of being an activist or else you dont belong. If you dont post wishing a happy holiday, happy heritage month, your deep supportfor the people that were discriminated against, then you dont care. People do it like its a checklist. it's not enough to simply care silently. It feels very performative as an outsider. It's always makes me feel so awful for watching ranboo and wanting to be a part of the community. The guilt is horrible. But if im not kept up with all the bad parts of it, im not doing it right.

There is also ableism. If you are uneducated or make a mistake speaking over minorities because of social issues you might experience, even if you try to be better it's held against you forever. These mistakes are valid and wrong. It's very important to have the attitude to improve yourself and see your mistake. As long as you are trying, why do people feel the need to kick you out of your safe space? I am not active on social media but i have seen this happen to many in the community.

I just hope for a space away from the hell i deal with. I just want to see and share silly art.

It's absolutely amazing the efforts of bootwt to make a good place for everyone. People work so hard and im grateful and amazed at what they have done. Racists should be bullied away. Ignorant people who do microaggressions but are willing to be educated and be better should be educated. Jumping people does not help anyone, help people realize their mistakes.

I hope the community continues the amazing work they have been doing. But lessen up on the expectations of others to also be activists like them. Communities are made up of all kinds of people. Everyone wants different things, some people need an escape from constant negativity. We should try to get along, point out each others mistakes and become better. Not put the community on the highest pedestal expecting everyone to be the same.

I hope this doesn’t come across like im a bigot trying to justify myself. I was really scared to post this but if I’m the only one who feels this is a problem just ignore me

i originally wasn't going to respond to this, but i want to break down some of this and explain it because i feel like i know what you're trying to say, but there's a lot of stuff in here that is misconstrued.

"It feel like everyone is expected to be an activist or they are a bad person nobody wants around"

you are not a bad person if you aren't an activist! i hope no one feels obligated to always be on the front lines fighting with people to make change. ranboo's community in the recent months has been one of the most active communities i've been in when it comes to rooting out bad people and making sure they know they're not welcome. if you feel unwelcome, why? you say it's because you don't want to be an activist. you don't have to be! but sending support and love to people who need it isn't activism. being educated and constantly evaluating yourself and your biases isn't activism. that's a part of living in the world we were born into that's entrenched in horrible bigotry that's been taught and ingrained since birth. ignoring these things doesn't make them go away, and the least you can do is acknowledge it and work to not continue the cycle of pain that so many minorities are subjected to. You say the community is supposed to be a safe place. how is it supposed to be safe if there are people who get away with saying and doing horrible things? its not enough to not be racist, ableist, antisemitic, sexist, homo/transphobic etc. you have to be anti- all of these things, and have a genuine love for the people who are affected.

if you feel like these things are too much emotionally for you, you are more than welcome to step away. no one expects anyone to be on the internet 24/7 or to always engage in the negative topics. hell, i've stopped talking about certain ccs and stopped constantly criticizing their actions because i know they wont change. i recognized it isn't healthy for me and there's no point to it. but when it comes to support, to making sure that everyone knows that bigotry isn't welcome, that is a very important aspect of a community. that's the DEFINITION of what a community is! and, if those of us who have followings and have thousands of people who look to us as a reflection of ranboo, don't do these things? how does that look from the outside? at this point it doesn't even correlate to ranboo anymore. me wanting people in bootwt to be educated and respectful people doesn't exist only in the online community, it exists in real life too. i want others to be aware of the impact they have on others. I would think that any fan of ranboo's would want that too, considering its one of the biggest things ranboo advocates for his fans. to be good people.

you correlated being an ally and being an activist, and you said that "An ally is someone that will speak against shit when they come across it, do their best to educate themself, stand behind people in every way they can." is that not what the community has constantly asked for? that's all minorities are asking for. you just described the community! then you say "There's this overwhelming crushing expectation in this community of being an activist or else you dont belong. If you dont post wishing a happy holiday, happy heritage month, your deep support for the people that were discriminated against, then you dont care." isnt that just being an ally, by your definition???? wishing people happy holidays to respect their culture and important days, and standing behind people who have experienced discrimination so they know they are loved and those hurtful things aren't welcome here? if you miss something or are late, that's normal! even if you after the fact say "hey, sorry i missed it but happy x hope your day was well" maybe one person will see it and will feel seen.

"it's not enough to simply care silently." im going to be completely honest. no. no its not. its not enough because being silent ALLOWS bigotry to exist. im going to link this article i researched specifically for this post, because it explains how silent racism works and is ingrained in our society

"It feels very performative as an outsider. It's always makes me feel so awful for watching ranboo and wanting to be a part of the community. The guilt is horrible. But if im not kept up with all the bad parts of it, im not doing it right."

no one expects anyone to always be caught up on which new cc was racist. we want people to be able to recognize bigotry and uplift the people who are hurt. to say, both online and in real life, when its safe: "hey, that wasnt cool, that hurts people." you shouldnt feel bad for wanting to be apart of the community. people are allowed to want to be apart of it. its a fun place to be sometimes! but also, people are allowed to distance themselves and not forgive some of the bad things they experienced.

"There is also ableism. If you are uneducated or make a mistake speaking over minorities because of social issues you might experience, even if you try to be better it's held against you forever. These mistakes are valid and wrong. It's very important to have the attitude to improve yourself and see your mistake. As long as you are trying, why do people feel the need to kick you out of your safe space? I am not active on social media but i have seen this happen to many in the community."

i do agree with you on this one. I don't like how the internet holds grudges. people aren't allowed to change and things they did are always held against them. BUT. on the other hand, if you have hurt people, those victims are not obligated to forgive you. this is a balance that isn't easily achieved in a large community, much less so on the internet. these are things that happen in all communities and its not fair sometimes.

at the end of the day. if you don't want to be an activist, then don't be. if you only want to see art and funny bits, mute terms. the more that these things are discussed and called out however, the easier its going to make it for the future. i don't think its fair to blame hurt people for making you feel bad about yourself. that's something you need to reflect on yourself and recognize why you feel that way, whether it be guilt or ignorance.

im not gonna be responding on this any further, go ham in the comments with thoughts if you want

have a nice day!

[ben-the-hyena]

🏚

Elemental (I know it turned around and is now appreciated in the box office but it looks like Tumblr still doesn't like it and rub their own popular biased movies I shan't name in its face. Die mad, keep your own stuff I keep mine)

Nobody gave it a chance and dunked it just because it has bad advertising and because "urr durr bad allegory" whereas it is meant to be partly autobiographical (and I am SURE because "ugh straight ppl again"). Yet the animation and designs are GORGEOUS Pixar peak and I dare say the worldbuilding and buildings' designs is more original than Zootopia, the romance is my favorite Pixar romance so far for how beautiful and realistic it feels and you can just feel it bloom and the 2 are great characters on their own without the couple too so you just want them to be together, the alegory is wonderful and even though I am not in Ember's situation when it comes to bd 2nd generation immigrant nor a minority I still feel so much her pressure and outburtsts about disappointing her family anf being scared to follow her dreams but suffering from it because you know you do have talent and having a constant dilemma to the point of having recurring breakdowns so it touched me deeply, the humor is fun, the soundtrack is beautiful, the feels were feely especially between her and her father, I loved how nothing was black and white by having and addressing the fact Wade and his family are kind rich people but innoncently unsensitive because as much as they want to help they do not know what it is like to work hard so they do not realize things they say which is refreshing the fact they fo microaggressions without meaning it and it is refreshing too to depict them as wrong but well meaning instead of outright unsubtle racist pricks like most shows and movies Tumblr love because they love them not for the scenario but only for projection I bet- I love this movie, one of my favorite Pixars already

[teeth-cable]

glad i'm not the only one who noticed how vaggie was treated like trash unlike the rest of the cast

especially alstor of all the characters

i know its hell and all but really ? only vaggie ?

The other characters get push around but not as bad as Vaggie, she is the constant joke of mockery. I see fans tried to explain how it isn't racist because the other characters get insulted too and no. Those characters have different contexts and tones from Vaggie's, she always has to defend herself. The latina character got slapped in the ass by a man and Angel made a microaggressive "joke" at her, where in the pilot did anyone else suffered similar things?

I made a post about this in detail if you're interested.

[wistfulcynic]

Harsh-Sounding and Potentially Unpopular Opinion Incoming. (lots of them, actually, brace yourselves.)

here it is: On the whole, people do not consider or relate to the experiences of others unless they are forced to. 

Now i am not saying that this makes any of us terrible people. Just that there is a natural inclination to assume that your way of doing things or of thinking about them is The Way and unless it is actively brought to your attention that this isn’t true, you just hang out in your own little solipsism forever. 

i think about this a LOT whenever i see discourse about, let’s say, just to choose a topic at random, racism in fandom. i think about it every time i see a white person say “bUt noT eVEryTHiNg iS aBouT RaCe.” Because they’re right. Not everything is about race. For them. 

It’s that “for them” that trips us up every time. 

(disclaimer: i am a white person raised in the USA. When i say white people/Black people/POC i’m talking about Americans.)

We white folks love to say that we don’t think about race. For us, that’s a kind of virtue signalling. “I’m so enlightened I don’t even think about race!” Give me plaudits now for i am a Good Person. But what we fail to understand is that Not Thinking About Race is only possible for us because white supremacy makes it so. Not Thinking About Race is a privilege we have because our race doesn’t inform every aspect of our lives. It doesn’t prevent us from getting jobs or educations, it doesn’t lead to us being followed around in stores or accused of crimes or shot just for existing in public. This isn’t virtue, it’s obliviousness. We don’t think about race because we don’t have to, because being white doesn’t affect our day-to-day lives and, ahem, on the whole people do not consider or relate to the experiences of others unless they are forced to. 

POC are forced to. (i’m basing this on what i’ve learned from POC talking about their experiences, please call me out if i get anything wrong). POC have to think about race all the time because it’s constantly shoved in their faces, by the lack of diverse representation in media, by the constant stream of news stories about Black people being killed for no reason at all, by their own daily experiences of microaggressions and injustices and downright tragedies. POC think about race because they don’t have the privilege of Not Thinking About It. 

All of this, when brought into the fandom environment, leads to a fundamental failure of communication and understanding. When a POC says “this thing is racist” and a white person immediately replies “but i wasn't even thinking about race!” both those things are true. Both those things are true but they are not. both. equally. valid. 

The POC spots the racism in the thing because they a) think about race by necessity and as a matter of course and b) have direct experiences of racism on which to draw. Whereas white people all too often spend their whole lives surrounded by other white people without any diverse viewpoints or experiences to force them to consider how others might see things. This leads to a whole lot of well-meaning white people who do and say racist things, not out of active racist intent but just by living as a privileged person in a racist society full of racist institutions and never actually thinking about whether their experiences of that society and those institutions are universal or not, or considering how it might feel to be deliberately oppressed, excluded, and unserved by that same society and those institutions. 

Again, this doesn’t mean that we are inherently bad people. It does mean that we are humans with human flaws that we need to be aware of in order to behave in ways that don’t cause harm to others. This is not easy. When you are raised to think in certain ways and do certain things and you know that there’s no malicious intent in any of it, it is harsh and jarring to hear someone tell you that those things are racist. It’s natural to want to defend yourself. It’s not, unfortunately, natural to think “actually maybe they have a point. Maybe they know something i don't. Maybe it’s something i need to understand if i’m going to have a fully informed opinion on this topic.” 

It’s not natural to think that but it is essential. We need to learn how to listen without defensiveness and how to decouple our actions from our beliefs about our character. It’s possible to do and say racist things without being a bad person, so long as when we are told that those things are racist we stop doing and saying them. Believe people when they tell you that what you’re doing harms them, and then don’t fucking do it anymore.

You think POC talk too much about racism? You want them to stop? This is how that gets done. It’s the only way that gets done. Arguing with them, trying to invalidate or silence them—that just takes your racism from “unintentional” to “actively fucking harmful.” That’s where it stops being an unintended consequence of your privilege and starts being a choice.

Listen to POC. Listen to them and do better and then maybe they won’t have so much racism to talk about. Then maybe we can all go back to enjoying our gay pirates in peace. 

Then. But not before.

[shrike-dyke]

Unlike the accusations regarding trigger warnings and safe spaces, the suggestion that the prohibition of hate speech violates the right to free speech is at least not completely frivolous. I think this is worth taking seriously.

Now hate speech prohibitions exist at three levels. At the highest level there’s legal restrictions, such as the laws against displaying Nazi imagery which have enabled Nazis to get some of my anti-Nazi videos blocked in much of Europe.

Speaking as a freedom-loving ’Murican, I find these laws clearly in violation of what the right to free speech protects. I mean, what, the Fuhrer’s gonna make it illegal to display a swastika now? What is this, Nazi Germany?

At the middle level there’s institutional prohibitions, such as those prohibiting hate speech in particular settings such as workplaces or universities. These I think are generally quite a good idea, and I’ll explain why in a moment.

At the bottom level there are social restrictions. For instance, there’s a lot of social pressure in certain communities not to be racist, sexist, homophobic, and so on. 

And although not formal rules, these norms can have a silencing effect, and place a de facto limitation on the things people are willing to say.

For instance, conservatives and classical liberals are constantly complaining to me about how the words “transphobe,” “racist,” “Islamophobe,” and so on are being used to silence them.

And in a sense they’re kind of right. I mean, people are saying those things to you because they want you to stop saying what you’re saying.

But of course, this is pretty microscopic as far as restrictions on free speech go. So, I guess you might say it’s like a kind of free speech microaggression, right?

And that is what it is. It’s a subtle, indirect way of trying to get you not to say a certain thing. So great! I wanna congratulate conservatives on independently discovering the idea of microaggressions.

But! If you’re willing to grant that words like “Islamophobia” can have a subtle silencing effect, you should also be willing to grant that small acts of sexism, racism, homophobia, and so on can likewise suppress the speech of marginalized people.

For instance: I constantly hear from women, trans and gender non-conforming people that they’ve thought about making YouTube videos, but they just don’t want to deal with the hate, the trolls, the constant misogyny and attacks on gender identity, the public shaming in “Genderqueer and Feminist Cringe Compilations,” and so they just avoid speaking up on YouTube altogether.

So, in a sense, these people are being silenced by the misogynistic and transphobic atmosphere, in the same way that your average YouTube shitlord would probably feel pretty alone and silenced in a gender studies class with 19 women complaining about sexist men.

Now, when I bring this up with classical liberals, they uniformly respond, if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen. The Internet’s just like that. Why can’t you just deal with it?

To which I respond, why can’t you just deal with being called a racist on college campuses? Academia’s just like that. And whatever you say to that, there’s the answer to your question. 

So, if you adopt a sophisticated view of what free speech means, you have to contend with the following contradictory situation: there are many instances where you have to choose between suppressing one person’s speech or another’s.

The fact is that there is no true neutral when it comes to free speech. It’s literally impossible to protect all speech equally, because some forms of speech tend to dampen other forms of speech.

So there comes a point where you have to choose whose side you’re on. In this case, do you want to defend the speech of misogynists or the speech of women? Homophobes and transphobes or queer people? Racists or people of color? And I’m not talking about passing laws here, I’m talking about establishing norms of discourse. […]

And I can’t help but look at this and conclude that you’ve taken a side in an ideological battle, while pretending all the way that you’re simply standing up for the supposedly neutral value of free speech.

— natalie wynn, does the left hate free speech?

[tolkien-feels]

(I am deeply, deeply sorry for this wall of text lmao)

So the thing about why people don’t like Thingol (and I promise I’m engaging in good faith because iirc you said you really wanted to know) is actually kind of the same thing about Denethor: it matters how you treat people when you’re at a low point.

What I mean by this is that both Thingol and Denethor get defended by people who act as if it’s perfectly understandable for them to be in a bad mood/tired/stressed/etc and then say rude and insensitive things or get into arguments where the power imbalance allows them to behave however they like, and then argue that they’ve just spoken in anger or they’ve behaved in an uncharacteristic way because of their bad mood or ignorance or what have you. I’ve never really understood that, because how you treat people when you’re at your worst is, to me, indicative of the true quality of your character? If you care enough about being compassionate and being a fair and just ruler, you’ll self-regulate and maintain self-control and you won’t snap or say things you don’t mean.

And the books seem to support this - Théoden and Aragorn and and Éomer and Imrahil don’t behave as Denethor does, and Nolofinwë and Findaráto and Maitimo and Turukáno don’t behave as Thingol does. (Maitimo might do some war crimes and Findaráto might do some colonialism, but they’re not openly racist or xenophobic and they never possibly-maybe allowed a political rival to die so that their claim to kingship would be unchallenged, see Denethor of the Laiquendi) They’re all very different people, and all under immense amounts of stress in varying ways for long periods of time, and none of them respond to being pushed past their limit by becoming hostile to those around them.

As a result, the question of why those two people behave the way they do becomes relevant, and examining their further actions doesn’t actually give any purely textual proof that they’re altruistic, otherwise kind, genuinely compassionate people. Thingol names Dior as his heir but isn’t exactly going to visit his human relatives, and he doesn’t protect Túrin from the ableist and xenophobic microaggressions that are a constant in Doriath. Denethor never participates in the morale-building that Imrahil dedicates himself to during the Siege, and it’s Imrahil who leads his own personal guard to rescue Faramir (It’s theorized by characters in the text that Denethor authorized this but never explicitly confirmed). What’s in the story is just as likely to point to their lowest point being indicative of their true selves as it is to point to anything else. There’s certainly room to interpret them as “complex” in a way that means “actual good people who make various mistakes for understandable reasons”, but it’s much more of an interpretation than the objective clearly obvious canon.

Basically I think that how you see these people is entirely dependent on if you think that the idea of being “not yourself” when you’re stressed is legitimate - if you do, then using someone’s lowest points as proof of who they are is unfair, and if you don’t, then those same points are the places where they’re the most honest with themselves and the audience.

(For context, anon is answering this post)

Putting my reply under a cut just for the sake of length

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this, and I would agree with a lot of what you're saying. I am making no claim that Thingol is a role model, and I'm not sure I would particularly want to spend much time with him, because a lot of his bad qualities which you've mentioned are things I can't really stand in people irl (ditto for Denethor. Ditto even for Feanor, who I love to death!)

Also, as a matter of fact, I also don't think Thingol's bad behavior is restricted to Leithian, not by any means! There it's just clearest, and this story is probably the most famous.

My point, though (which in retrospect I didn't make super clear) is that I don't think a lot of Silm fans specifically go for characters who are unquestionably good, likable heroes. Like, in the top 10 most used character tags on ao3 (not that I use ao3, but it's convenient for data) we have Feanor, Sauron, Celegorm, Morgoth - not people I think you can look at and say "Oh yes, definitely people who are both good and likable!" (And I would argue the same of absolute fandom favorite Maedhros, but that's more YMMV)

The take I see most often wrt to Thingol, though, is not even "A complex asshole" (which I would be fine with), but rather "Not complex enough to be interesting" which is what I find frustrating. I find him one of the most complex people canon has to offer without needing a pile of "not canon but not contradicted by canon" headcanons.

And again, I don't think everybody should like my faves, and Thingol is not one of my faves anyway, but I wish he was not reduced to one-dimensional personification of That Guy you roll your eyes all the time at. Because whether you see him as ultimately noble or ultimately horrible, either way he does canonically have many dimensions!

I don't feel like I'm making any sense but my brain is mush today so that's as eloquent as I can be right now, sorry. But yeah, I don't think Thingol is necessarily a great guy, but I do think he is a very layered guy and while I don't particularly care whether he's appreciated as a person, I wish he was better appreciated as a well-written character, if that makes sense