#Azula discourse

[idolomantises]

I just finished rewatching ATLA and I have to say…

Absolutely insane to me that people were insisting that Azula not getting a redemption was “misogynistic” and some kind of writing mistake. The girl told her dad to commit mass genocide.

[stardust948]

*Tired sigh*

[zukosdualdao]

the frustrating thing about azula discourse is that i LOVE her as a character. she is very well-written and there is very little i would change about her arc in the show. the trouble is that certain azula stans will take any discussion about like, things she did and the narrative role and function she was supposed to serve in canon as “hate.” it’s not hate to talk about the things the character did and was and said in canon. it’s not hate to call her a villain because she is a villain in the narrative. she’s a villain we can have sympathy for, sure, but still very much a villain.

[pechuyu]

Im so late to ursa discourse but trying to read the comics and the first few pages of dialogue are so weird

Like i get that azula was the "troubled kid" and ursa wasn't equipped to help or do much but at the end of the day one of azula's core issues is that her mom thinks shes a monster and doesnt love her so it is kinda on her to ensure her kid feels like shes loved by her mom.

Plus talking about "losing" her like shes dead. Girl ur kid was a 14 year old child soldier who had a psychotic break and fucked off into the woods, if ur so upset about losing her maybe you should go out and find her??

Like imagine Azula seeing this. Her mother worrying abt her "new replacement daughter" ending up like her and talking abt her like she's too far gone.

(also zuko knowing azula's struggling, heard her talk abt her mommy issues, and doesnt even try to defend just reassures their mom the new kid won't be like "the bad one" )

(if this all apart of plan i take it back but its not looking good so far lol)

[sokkastyles]

I really don't like that some Azula stans are trying to compare the comment about fans from the recent comic to Bryke actually stealing fanart from zutara shippers so that they could make fun of them and literally telling them that they will be abused in real life.

You could MAYBE compare the Azula fan comment to the Ember Island Players parody of zutara, which is much more like light-hearted poking fun, and can actually be argued as pro-zutara, and is more about the characters' reactions in-story than it is about the fans.

But the way Bryke went out of their way to humiliate zutara shippers with the book four video is much more comparable to the misogynistic comic that was drawn specifically to mock criticisms of Legend of Korra. In those two instances, Bryke directly addressed (their idea of) their female fans in really gross ways.

Also, in order to figure out who is being harmed by something, a useful tool is to look at where the hate is being directed. Zutara fans are still getting harassment to this day because of what Bryke did, much of it based on misogynistic ideas about female sexuality. Right now, the person being harassed is a female comic artist, and Azula stans haven't even waited more than a few days to launch their campaign because of what is perceived as the tiniest slight against them, which is what Azula stans always seem to do.

[aerithisms]

zuko's redemption arc is very good, it is beloved for a reason, but it's also poisoned discussion on redemptions in fandom in such an annoying and exhausting way. people always talk about the idea of "deserving" when it comes to redemption and at least some of this feels like it stems from atla depicting zuko as having originally been a kindhearted child who got corrupted into bad behaviour by abuse. therefore he "deserved" to get redeemed because he was always a good person deep down.

there is obviously nothing wrong with this being the way zuko's character is written but because it's the most beloved redemption arc in all of fandom now everyone thinks every character with a redemption arc has to have secretly been a good person all along. as though arcs about characters seeking redemption aren't actually about exploring people changing, they're just about confirming their inherently good nature. i think this is a very shallow way to think about human beings and a very boring way to write fictional characters!!!

the question of whether it's a good idea to give a character a redemption arc shouldn't be about whether they "deserve" it. the whole point of redemption is that the character starts out a bad person at the beginning of the arc, and we explore what it takes for them to change. it's bizarre that so many people in fandom have taken the stance that people don't really change, they're either bad or they're not, and redemption arcs are only for exposing the goodness that was already inside people.

the question of whether it's a good idea to give a character a redemption arc should be about whether it's the most compelling direction for that character and whether it aligns with the themes of the story. that's all. it's not a question of morality as if the characters are real people, it's a question of what the story is about and is trying to communicate. sometimes this means it would be mean spirited and ill fitting with the themes not to give a character a redemption arc. sometimes it means a character who has yet to show any modicum of remorse or kindheartedness will receive a redemption arc, because the story is interested in how that person could possibly change. and sometimes it means a character who does show signs of goodness may never get to realise that, and will never change their ways. it depends what the story is trying to say and what makes for the most interesting and fitting character journey for that story. because the character is not real and is first and foremost a tool to communicate that story.

[xensilverquill]

[antispopausandstuff]

Adora's Underwritten Psyche

.

list of unexplored, underdeveloped opportunities granted that the writers didn't take for their main ( keyword - main ) protagonist:

being the next poster child of the Horde, desiring Shadow Weaver and Hordak's approval.

Shadow Weaver putting not only the responsibility, but the life of another child ( a volatile one, at that ) in her hands when Adora herself was, at most, 10 years old.

her promotion of Force Captain, which would mean she would be responsible for more lives, while she herself is still a child.

being different from her peers for unknown reasons, and being antagonized for it from a young age ( by Catra ).

constantly having to cater to Catra's person, often including her mood swings and sadism, to either avoid conflict or to make Catra happier.

not only her entire world being turned upside down, but having to fight the only people she knew as family.

being so incredibly sheltered and manipulated that she doesn't even know what an aunt or a party is, showing she was completely unable to have even a modicum of an actual childhood.

not knowing her own culture, home planet, people, biological family, if they ever wanted her, and being given away.

Mara. Mara.

Catra's repeated, increasingly violent betrayals, her hypocrisies, manipulations, etc. after abandoning Adora, while claiming she was the one who was abandoned.

likely feeling even more responsible for Glimmer, Bow, and Angella's lives, a part of it out of immense guilt.

being repeatedly harassed // stalked and assaulted by Catra.

being repeatedly harassed // stalked by Shadow Weaver.

Entrapta's "death". and her betrayal.

being drugged, kidnapped, and essentially nearly "leashed" by Catra.

the Portal. Corrupted Catra. everything.

Angella's sacrifice. with her Atlas complex, there's no way Adora should've been as stable as she was after seeing someone, quite literally, for all she knew, die for her.

Glimmer blaming her. i get it, but it felt like the show quickly made it so that Adora was more upset about not being enough for her than the fact that, y'know, she was the only one blamed for someone's, let alone Angella's, death.

the Heart of Etheria.

Horde Prime's invasion. you cannot convince me she wouldn't feel at least somewhat responsible for that.

Horde Prime telling her, to her face, that Eternia was gone.

Catra being back in her life.

Chipped Catra. no, not for shipping angst reasons.

Catra antagonizing her again, for literally no reason.

Melog being the last of their kind, Adora being the last of hers. maybe not psyche-related, but it certainly should've affected her way more than it did ( which was p much not at all ).

Shadow Weaver. oh, wait, sorry, i forgot that only Catra has trauma related to Shadow Weaver /s.

the Failsafe.

Catra antagonizing her for the umpteenth time, for no reason.

Catra abandoning her, for no reason.

the Failsafe.

but she's just a dumb jock lesbian who's in love with Catra, right? that's alllll that matters. /s.

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

you know what made zuko work as a sympathetic and redeemable antagonist? the fact that he actually faced a moral dilemma and didn't want to do half of the things he did. the fact that he sometimes did the right thing even when he was actively an antagonist.

i feel like spop writers tried to replicate this but forgot to make catra act redeemable. she was just having the time of her life torturing people and there's a mini-breakdown every now and then where she acts like everyone is against her, and we're supposed to feel sorry for her.

[prying-pandora666]

The argument that nonbenders exist therefor taking away bending doesn’t make any sense either.

People with mobility issues exist. Does that make it okay to break someone else’s legs or paralyze them?

People with cognitive impairments exist. Does that make it okay to give someone else brain damage?

Toph is blind. Would that make it okay to blind Sokka or Katara?

Disabled people (of which I am one!) deserve dignity, respect, and reasonable accommodations. That doesn’t make intentionally disabling an able-bodied person okay in any way.

Bending is an integral part of a person: culturally, genetically, spiritually. To rip that away is devastating. Imagine if the Gaang had advocated to do that to Zuko, who was far more willing to burn down villages and harm civilians than Azula, who only ever attacks enemy combatants and never a single civilian.

Where did the idea that Azula is some wild animal that has to be put down like one come from? She is shown to be perfectly capable of rational discussion, moreso than Zuko at his worst who is prone to stubborn outbursts of violence and anger. She even shows her bitter rival compassion and gentility. Why in the world wouldn’t you at least ATTEMPT to do the same before tearing out a piece of her soul?

Is it a fear of mentally ill people? Because people who suffer psychotic breaks are still people. Such symptoms are most often temporary anyway and resolve with proper care and a safe environment.

Also Azula has willpower like HELL. I’d be concerned for Aang’s spirit getting corrupted.

I think that Azula's bending should have been taken away by Aang by the end of the show, and her title too. Because not only she will not be dangerous anymore as she was (especially for Zuko and his place as Fire Lord, since she can't be Fire Nation ruler anymore), but finally will have an opportunity to learn who she is if not a weapon and a princess, without pressure coming from being the bender and weaponized. Other nations would see this as fair punishment, but for her this is opportunity to start a new life, even if under supervision at first.

[zukosdualdao]

what i hate about the insistence that it was wrong for zuko in particular not to say anything to azula saying how their mother liked zuko better and thought she was a monster is what the hell is he supposed to say to that?

ursa “liking zuko better” looked like ursa protecting zuko from azula targeting him as the family scapegoat. it’s a rationalization azula gives herself so she doesn’t have to contend with the fact that ursa had good reason to be concerned about her behavior and wanted to help her but couldn’t, due to ozai’s influence.

what exactly is zuko supposed to say to that? disparage his (believed to be dead) mother, who was just trying to look out for him and he loves? absorb the blame and act like the things azula has done and continues to do don’t hurt him?

also, once again, hypocrisy. the cruelest thing he says to her in this moment is that she finds herself to be so perfect, which is true. she literally calls him pathetic right before that. why should he be comforting her?

[pechuyu]

You're 100% wrong about Ursa.

Ursa never thought Azula was a monster, and she never treated her that way. That's why Azula's hallucination of her- coming from her OWN subconscious- is telling her that Ursa loved her. The conversation literally goes: "You think I'm a monster" "No, Azula. I love you." Part of the reason Azula has this breakdown is that she's realizing that Ozai didn't value her and that Ursa- the one she spent years resenting- did.

Ursa never even treated Azula like a monster. From what we saw, she cared enough to try to correct Azula's behavior. So your assessment that she didn't do anything was wrong. Nor did she favor Zuko because she had no issues scolding Zuko when he threw bread at the turtle duck (she also doesn't harp on the fact that he got that behavior from Azula). She also made Zuko play with Azula when she asked. Why would she do that if she thought Azula was a monster?

Ursa never treated her that way. Even in the comic panel you brought up, she asks "When did I lose her?" Implying that when Azula was a kid she didn't realize anything was so severe that Azula couldn't be helped

I didn’t mean to imply that Ursa actually thought she was a monster, it’s more so the way Ursa acted made Azula feel like she did(even if she didn’t intend to). I think she saw Azula going down a dark path and being turned into a weapon but had no idea how to help her.

Also not trying to make Ursa out to be a horrible person. I think her having these flaws makes her a more interesting character. Like you can love your kid and still let them down, especially in her situation where her options were limited.

I do think the show gives us a lot of evidence for her bonding easier with Zuko while struggling to connect with Azula. So while it is mostly due to circumstances out of her control she still owes it to her kids to make them feel loved and should acknowledge the ways she may have let Azula down growing up. She even mentions this in The Search when she apologizes for not loving her enough.

(Plus there is the scene of her laughing at Iroh’s letter about seiging Ba Sing Se, which suggests she also held nationalistic views of some kind. The same ones that made Azula who she is. Which adds an interesting angle to her character.

Overall, my biggest gripe was more so trying to imagine how Azula would react to that conversation and how it would confirm all her biggest insecurities and how she keeps talking about losing her but she’s still alive and out there needing help. Again we see with Iroh, who stayed by Zuko’s side and would defend him even when he was a villain, talking about how he is good at heart(even when zuko wasn’t around). Azula doesn’t have someone like that.

[azulas-daddy-kink]

fandumb: "OMG what do have against people who think Azula's a lesbian?!"

me: *gestures broadly*

[iukasylvie]

"Anthy's Just a Middle Schooler" Is Not the Gotcha People Think It Is

I got a message saying Anthy Himemiya from the anime Revolutionary Girl Utena and the Sohma head maid from the manga Fruits Basket "aren't even similar situations lol" because "Anthy is a middleschooler."

Cool, so is Azula from the animated series Avatar: The Last Airbender. You know, that character who was:

A literal child soldier

Weaponized by her nation

Groomed by her abusive father to be emotionally invulnerable

Never shown real love or support from anyone except her mother who suddenly disappeared

And still? She doesn't get treated like a blameless, helpless victim.

She's a tragic figure, absolutely. She's sympathetic. But her cruelty isn't swept under the rug. Avatar shows how her refusal to accept help and her obsession with control lead directly to her breakdown and downfall. The story acknowledges that her actions have consequences. Even if we mourn her, we still recognize the harm she caused.

Meanwhile, Anthy Himemiya in Revolutionary Girl Utena?

Also young (but clearly capable of choice)

Surrounded by people actively trying to help her (Utena Tenjou!!!)

Betrays Utena's love and trust at the most crucial moment

Enables Akio Ohtori's abuse and cruelty while knowingly playing along

And fandom's response is... "Well, she's just a kid" and "it's internalized misogyny" and "she didn't have a choice"?

Sorry, but you can be a victim and an enabler. That's not mutually exclusive.

We're allowed to have compassion for Anthy without rewriting the narrative to excuse all her actions. Especially when other characters in other stories—like Azula, or even Akito Sohma—get dragged for doing similar or even lesser things at the same age.

Stop using "she's just a child" as a shield when you never apply that same energy elsewhere.

[emma-o-yt]

Chatting about Azula redemption

Inspired by yesterday, I wanna talk about Azula redemption discourse again. Writing off people who think Azula is "too bad" or "underserving" of redemption as media illiterate or missing the point is a tad...quite...very rude.

As for what Bryke thinks:

Yay! So the creators do think Azula can be healed. I wanna discuss why people are hesitant to a Azula redemption.

Don't know who said it but there is a quote that goes like this: "give the fans what they want instead of what they think they want". Fanatics are fickle, for example: Cursed Princess Club. Prince Blaine was never even a bad guy, he just lashed out for a little bit towards the end (it's complicated).

I referred to it as the lashing out of a wounded animal. I was rooting for him however, the webtoon comments were brutal, with some even calling for him to die. I predicted that once he righted himself, the fans would pretend they never said all that icky stuff and he would become beloved. I was right.

Azula has shown that she suffered from internal pain and in The Beach, we see her feel remorse for laughing after Zuko insulted Ty Lee.

However, I think the show is also to blame. "Everyone has the capability of change" is not a notion the show subscribes to, you can see it in the interview above. Can you blame people for having a negative view when the most beloved character says this?

There's also the matter of Azula as a child being cast in as bad of a light as possible, with little to show for how Ursa hurt her. We only get told that Ursa hurt Azula but it doesn't feel true for many because we don't see it on screen.

The Search and comics are in general horribly written and make a mess of Azula's character, ableism aside.

She looks like a lunatic! Look at those bloody red lips! Is she the Joker! THIS is what Azula should look like:

She is a child.

Given that her breakdown comes so late and we get so little of her sympathetic aspects, her initial characterisation is the more familiar one. Contrast that to Vegeta:

Initially introduced as a villain with much worse crimes than Azula, after one arc he transfers over to the good guys. Not because he changes, but because of necessity. He doesn't become good until the final arc of DBZ but he was the token evil teammate longer than he was a villain and has been reformed for 30 irl years.

I find it funny that The Last Agni Kai was meant to be a tragedy that siblings are fighting but people tend to put more blame on Azula rather than her circumstances. Abusive parents tend to pit their kids against each other, making them ignore the real enemy. We shouldn't subscribe to that thinking.

I think season 3 of the cartoon was a fine way to leave her character but having her arc continued, I don't see any other way to go other than redemption or walking the earth. I can't see the satisfaction in that but who knows. If Azula's redemption arc was done well, people will accept it in open arms. Even those vehemently opposed to it.

So yeah.

[aro-aceattorney]

my hot take is that the defining characteristic of a character being a “Vriska” is that there HAS to be so much internet discourse about them.

A vriska has to be many of the things people associate with her: a female character who is mean with dubious justification, but if people aren’t getting genuinely mad in TikTok comments defending/decrying her then she is Not A Vriska.

Vriska, to me, is discourse personified. She was explicitly created to be a character people would get so fucking mad about, and she does that perfectly!!

For example: Franziska von Karma is often described as a Vriska. she’s mean, she’s bitchy, she has a vaguely tragic backstory - but she is Not the subject of widespread discourse. In my mind, that makes her Not Vriska.

But consider Azula from ATLA- she’s bitchy, she’s mean, and people To This Day are still fighting about whether or not she‘a redeemable. Now THAT is a Vriska!!!