#Anti Liz Danes

[jessmmariano]

If I think about Jess’s childhood/high school years too much I get sad because no one deserves that. And Gilmore Girls just glosses over it.

I get that’s not the tone of the show, but how on earth did Liz get a redemption plot? Meanwhile, so many fans hate Jess just because he made mistakes at seventeen. His mother was an alcoholic and addict who drank while she was pregnant. Jess worked two jobs while in high school so he could be financially secure. It was heavily implied that Liz was constantly dating/marrying men who mistreated her and Jess. Yet so many fans continue to hate Jess.

[bisexualpunk]

the first scene that lays the groundwork of jess’s character (luke explaining the situation to lorelai in his apartment) is actually so interesting and telling in regards to liz’s character, especially considering the direction they decide to go when they introduce/develop her.

luke puts the blame for jess getting into trouble and acting out and liz sending him to stars hollow solely on liz’s shoulders. he says she probably only gave it five minutes of thought. he says she gave up on jess and he doesn’t sound the least bit surprised. he says it’s obvious liz is the problem and that jess needs to get away from her because she’s a “nutjob” and a “selfish basket case.”

luke knows who his sister is. he knows the kind of damage that can be inflicted on a kid being raised by her. and this does paint a really dark picture for jess’s home life and upbringing and it’s sad that he wasn’t viewed through the lens of being a very damaged kid by the characters or even by some of the audience after we get that kind of a rundown.

but then we meet liz. and we see her interact with jess. and we see how she affects him. and like. i just don’t understand how the narrative shifts so suddenly to paint liz as this free spirit that’s earned her son’s love and forgiveness and jess as a kid who is holding a grudge against her and being petty when he should be sucking it up and accommodating her.

and i really don’t understand the leniency given to liz because she’s “changed and bettered herself” but not to jess for overcoming the incredibly awful hand he was dealt

[frazzledsoul]

A non exhaustive list of terrible things Liz Danes did/said after she showed up:

- Makes a beeline straight for the pot the minute she shows up

- Hasn't called to check on Jess once in the nine (!) months he's been gone from Stars Hollow

- It's established that she generally has a terrible track record with men/employment/stable housing

- It's also established she is easily able to manipulate Luke into doing her bidding and in pretending that every new terrible idea is no big deal

- Makes a show of introducing Jess to TJ and acting like she's the best mom ever despite his obvious discomfort

-Makes several statements to Lorelai to the effect that Luke has been cleaning up after her for her entire life and finding her jobs, apartments, helping her out financially, getting rid of dangerous men

- To quote Jess verbatim: "I don't like this guy. I don't like any of the guys. She doesn't give a crap what I think. I've got nineteen years of proof to back me up". She always chose her men over him, no matter how terrible they were.

- Luke is involved in sussing out Jess's whereabouts and living situation, giving him a place to sleep (thanks to Lorelai), offering him money to fix his car. Liz is not involved in any of that and doesn't offer. She signed off on being the parent a long time ago.

- Liz shows back up for the wedding and immediately manipulates Luke into helping arrange the wedding, selling jewelry in the diner, inviting strippers to the diner...when she's around, he ends up doing her bidding almost automatically. Zero boundaries.

- There's more references to her sketchy self-employment and the many times Luke watched it fall apart.

- Luke's the one who goes to New York, finds Jess, has him go back to Stars Hollow as a favor to him. No comment from Liz on his lifestyle or offering him a place to stay. Luke is the only one who fights with him about it. Luke's also the one to give him romantic advice as Liz is not involved in that at all.

- Liz reveals her romantic history right before the wedding. Second husband was okay, third husband was not and died mysteriously, boyfriend after third husband was also okay. This is also the only wedding she's not been drunk at.

- Liz assumes Jess broke Rory's heart even though she has no idea who that is. Lorelai steps in and defends Jess, saying it just didn't work out.

- Luke is roped into taking care of Liz and TJ for several weeks after they are in a car accident and following them around on the Ren Faire circuit. I only mention this because he is, as always, forever her caretaker.

- Liz and TJ get into a screaming fight early in S5 and ruin Luke and Lorelai 's date.

- Sometime in S5 or S6 Liz mentions that she's never made dinner, not once. Jess is around 20 years old at this time period. How did he eat?

-Liz manipulates Luke into letting TJ work at the construction at Lorelai's house. She cries and throws a tantrum until he gives in. TJ somehow knocks a big hole in the upstairs of Lorelai's house.

-Liz does not show up to Jess's open house, nor does she ever mention it (or him at all) afterwards. Luke shows up to support him and tells him he's proud of him. Mom can't be bothered.

-When Liz finds out she's pregnant with Doula, she casually mentions to Luke (in public!) that she binge drank while she was pregnant with Jess. Luke isn't shocked by this.

-Liz claims to Luke that TJ abandoned her after she told him she was pregnant. Luke goes to TJ and TJ reveals that Liz got violent and threw half the household objects at his head and kicked him out when he was excited about it. Luke goes to Liz afterwards and she rants that if she stays with TJ her kid's going to end up ruined and she'll have to send it away. Luke is the one who reminds her that Jess turned out OK and that he's actually doing great (not that Liz has any knowledge of this at all or should receive any credit for it). Liz and TJ reconcile.

- Liz and TJ invite Luke over for dinner in early S7. Their stove is broken. He has to make dinner himself (because of course he does). Despite formerly being supportive, they tell him Lorelai was bad for him and Liz says some mumbo jumbo about how they were never meant to be together. Luke runs into Lorelai at the grocery store and says the whole thing was a bad idea and he'll be civil to her, but he's not interested in a personal relationship again. Lorelai basically doesn't go anywhere in town she could run into him for the next six months (okay, the romantic advice isn't terrible per se but Liz is seriously inconsistent on this issue).

- Luke attends Doula's birth. Liz is excited about April being a free babysitter.

- Liz dumps Doula on Luke at work a few weeks after she is born because she "needs a break" and disappears for hours.

-Liz and TJ invite themselves to stay at Luke's apartment some weeks later, shortly after Lorelai and Christopher have broken up. Now Liz is all excited about Lorelai and Luke getting back together (pick a lane, woman).

-In the series finale, Liz tries to dump Doula on Luke at work AGAIN (how often does she do this?) Luke stops her before she can leave, and makes her take the baby with her.

-Liz and TJ are mercifully offscreen for AYITL. Jess fulfills the role of being Luke's sounding board and attempting to comfort him when he has problems with Lorelai and there are already enough quirky townies, so she isn't needed. TJ and Liz are involved in a mysterious vegetable cult that they eventually get kicked out of, which provides a reason for Jess to come into town every so often. He's now the support to his family that Luke used to be on his own. It's implied that this is not the first time TJ and Liz have gotten involved in a cult over the past few years

My point to all of this is that Liz is not stable, she's not a decent person, she has not "redeemed" herself, she may be clean and sober but she's still horribly selfish, unreliable, and a pain in Luke's ass. There's a bunch of stuff that is implied in Jess's behavior that indicates she was a horrible mom, but we don't get the full picture until she shows up. The full picture is...a lot worse.

[queenunderthatmountain]

do you ever just think about how it might have been if Jess had moved in with Luke just a few years earlier

[jojoblessed365]

Okay, this is just a theory and because I'm ferociously bored, so here goes:

I just finished watching Wednesday and while watching episode 5, I couldn't help but draw parallels between Gomez-Morticia-Wednesday and TJ-Liz-Doula respectively.

Both sets of parents are full-on sexually romantic with no boundaries whatsoever, and their children can't help but blanche at that. I personally feel that Liz and TJ are egotistic and tend to get wrapped up in their own problems and Doula is sadly caught in the middle.

Also, it would be a good conflict- that no matter how much Liz has changed and handling parenting in two completely different ways (being a single mom with Jess and then co-parenting with TJ their kid Doula), Doula ironically becomes a version of teen Jess.

And then I watched episode 7 and loved the relationship between Uncle Fester and Wednesday. And I immediately thought of the possible rapport between Jess and Doula- coming in whenever she needs a shakeup in her life or going through an existential crisis.

Anyway, I believe that if the Palladinos ever want to go back to Stars Hollow and the Gilmore universe, it would be so fun to see a different perspective and they should take Doula's POV, given that we haven't seen her and she is a "blank slate"; also I'm so bummed we never got to see the Jess spinoff and I think they could recycle the material and use Doula as the lead where she searched for a family member and attempts to find herself. And then Jess periodically comes to check on her, much like how Lenny Bruce would pop in at odd times in The Marvelous Mrs Maisel.

Anyway, I'm fully out of steam!!! Drop your thoughts in the comments or reblog!!!

Mic drop!!!

[frazzledsoul]

Not to be a passive-aggressive bitch about it or anything but...

Liz Danes's extreme patterns of neglect, abandonment, and likely enabling abuse were NOT the result of her male relatives not coddling her enough. She binge drank during her pregnancy with Jess, raised her son in an environment full of chaos and violence, had a hard time holding down an apartment or a job, was constantly bringing unstable if not abusive men to their home, and forced him into a pattern where he was expected to leave the premises when she brought a date home. Liz has also copped to never fixing him dinner as a child, so he likely didn't have reliable shelter or clothing at any given time as well as food. She sends him away when he's too much trouble, won't let him come home for Christmas, doesn't call to check in on him when he leaves the actual stable home he's been living in for two years, and then expects him to be grateful for her company and walk her down the aisle at her wedding.

She doesn't give him money to get back to New York (Luke does), she doesn't bother to show up at his work events (Luke does), she's not shown to have any appreciation or pride in his accomplishments afterwards (again, Luke). She starts off her second pregnancy with violently attacking her husband, throwing him out of the house, and then claiming to Luke that he abandoned her. She claims she has the raise the baby alone because otherwise he'll turn out to be a disaster and Luke has to remind her that Jess is an actual success story (no thanks to her, BTW). He reconciles Liz and TJ and it appears that Liz remembers to feed her daughter once she's born, but she's still constantly dropping her off with Luke at work and ten years later is getting involved in cults.

None of this is a result solely of William and Luke not being sufficiently emotional. She is a grown woman who treated her child like a houseplant and put him last in her affections, badly neglecting and emotionally scarring him. There's no proof she physically abused him or let her partners do it, but based on her other behavior it wouldn't be a surprise. Her sins are quite legendary and cannot be solely blamed on her male family members. She also feels no guilt or shame for any of them and while she stopped abusing drugs and alcohol is for the most part as selfish and manipulative as ever.

Far from being coddled, what she really needed was to be forced to take responsibility for her own life and if that isn't going to happen, to remove anyone vulnerable from her care for their own good. She's pretty much a monster even if a lot of her antics are played off for laughs.

So no. Luke and William are not responsible for her behavior and far from being denied "love", it seems that she got plenty of affection and attention from them (especially Luke) given the extent to which they enabled her behavior. That behavior is her own fault and her own responsibility.

[jessmmariano]

Btw it’s unfair to compare a teenage Jess to an adult Logan

[theonethatwatchesalotofshows]

I have noticed a weird double standard in the Gilmore Girls fandom where when someone questions Lorelai and defends Emily everyone jumps down their throat like: "nooo, Emily was abusive, she wanted Lorelai to get married at 16, she was controlling etc, Lorelai was right to cut her off because she was toxic for her" yet people question why Lane didn't want to move in with Mrs Kim and raise her children there?? After Mrs Kim was 100x more strict and controlling than Emily?? And they say that Lane was apparently ungrateful for everything her mom has sacrificed for her because her mother is an immigrant that moved to America just to give Lane a better future and raised her according to her own values, which is apparently great and traditional? Do you not see the double standard here?? Did Emily also not raise Lorelai according to her own values? But what, just because she's a WASP that makes her values wrong and only Mrs Kim's Korean values are the right ones? Didn't Emily also want to give her daughter a better future?

Both mothers raised their daughters in the way they *thought* was the best but of course it didn't turn out to actually *be* the best and it did harm to Lorelai and Lane. Both daughters are allowed to draw boundaries with their mothers in adulthood and to not want their mothers involved in raising their children because they know how badly they messed up with raising them. That doesn't make them either "right" or "ungrateful" it is their decision.

[clerati]

Ouch, this is probably a child abuse trait.

I can see Liz telling Jess she loves him and telling him he's "hell on wheels" and won't amount to anything and telling him 'things are going to be different this time' and Jess learning that words mean nothing and to look for SIGNS because that's where you can figure out what people really mean.

"You didn't pack up my stuff yet." -> "Your stuff is all in boxes! It's perfect!"

Jess is always looking for Signs, searching for meaning in the things people won't say.

[feralgodmothers]

Luke’s sister and nephew for the bingo?

For Liz:

And Jess:

[antimatterpod]

On Raffi by Anika Dane is in the current issue of Star Trek Quarterly

The Diversity Paradox: Star Trek, Star Trek fandom, and the limits of fandom as progressivism by Liz Barr is in Speculative Insight

SECOND, it’s time. Anika and Liz are being called away from a fancy 32nd century cocktail party to stand in an empty void and discuss the first two episodes of Star Trek: Discovery‘s fifth and final season…

Compared with the over-the-top emotional drama monarchs of Star Trek: Picard‘s third season, it’s just nice to be with competent professionals who get the job done

Picking up the threads of Star Trek: Picard‘s first season

Captain Picard is still the most important individual who ever existed

This arc so far has the Star Trek V problem: they can’t actually meet God, so the real meaning of life will be the friends we made along the way

Tilly has a rare but valuable anti-ambition arc

Moll and L’ak have wandered in from another series, but we’re not mad about it

It’s nice that Vance has a wife and Tilly has a love interest, but we’re still shipping Vance/Tilly and we’re not sorry

[clerati]

I am so bored of this take, mostly because it's just an exceptionally bad faith reading of canon.

Jess says nothing to imply that he is suggesting Rory drop out of Yale, or that she abandon her family. He actually says, "it's perfect, your stuff is all in boxes". Why is her stuff in boxes? Because it's the start of summer break. What *is* implied by his saying "we'll work, we'll live together, we'll be together"? That he can't afford to keep her. And we know Jess' situation at this time. He can't afford to keep her for the length of summer break or probably even a week if we're being honest. He can't. What is implied by his saying "we belong together, but not here, not Stars Hollow"? That to make their relationship work, they need to find some third place that's their own where they can figure out their relationship on their own terms.

We know from how Jess behaves in previous seasons that he absolutely respects Rory's relationships with her family, with how he tries to get along with Lorelei and Emily (accepting that he'll have to keep working on his relationships with these people despite the fact that they actually work against him and his relationship with Rory herself). We have no reason to believe that's changed, and we should be interpreting the above scene through that lens unless we are given reason to otherwise. I'm not even touching the idea that he's asking her to drop out of Yale, because he is *so consistent* in the show's runtime in supporting her with Harvard/Yale and her future dreams in general that to think that he would ever do anything else is just... beyond ridiculous.

But the most damning thing is in the next episode, when Rory is talking about the incident with Lane. It's implied that she actually considered it. Rory actually considered running away with Jess, but ultimately felt that he was too unreliable to take a risk on. The fact that she *doesn't* make these complaints is damning to the argument that he was suggesting what he's being accused of suggesting by OP and others previously. She's literally ragging on Jess and actually communicating her ill-feelings about her relationship with him. Do we have any reason to believe she would leave out that he's asking her to drop out of Yale and abandon her family? No, we don't. That doesn't make any sense. If Rory had interpreted the conversation that way (and this is a clue from the writers to how *we* should interpret the conversation), she would have mentioned those things. She would have mentioned them above the fact that he's unreliable, because she's literally complaining about why she felt he was wrong to ask her for that (and by extension why getting back together with him at all is a bad idea).

So now that we've deconstructed that this is a bad faith reading of canon. Here's what I think actually happened. Jess reads a self-help book on relationships. It helps him with his relationship with Luke. He feels like he's now got the key to being good at relationships despite having had this book for all of a weekend and having exercised what he's learned from it exactly once. So, he goes over to his ex-girlfriend who he has never stopped loving and *begs* her for another chance, because "[she] can count on [him] now". Why does he think she can count on him now? Well, he has this book that's taught him about relationships... Is this still a stupid, ill-thought out, and just desperate and reckless act (even though he just means for the summer or less)? Absolutely, yes. And it makes sense for him as a character.

Jess is a very troubled kid who has never had stable housing and grew up in a neglectful at best (abusive in any case, but likely worse) family situation with his druggie single mother and her string of bad boyfriends/husbands (getting this info from Luke and Liz). He's a good person, but he literally doesn't know how to "act good", because it's barely ever been modeled for him. Obviously, Luke was a much better guardian than Liz and wasn't abusive, but there's a reason Luke bought that book and he did kick Jess out when he had no where else to go (though I give that Luke probably didn't expect Jess to clear out the next day, but he should have, given that he was shipped to Stars Hollow in the exact same span of time with only what he could carry until his stuff could be sent after him). With this context, it makes sense that Jess would behave in desperate and impulsive ways. We've seen it before, when he left Stars Hollow after the car accident, and when he told Rory he loved her. He's a very troubled kid who is arguably at the lowest part of his arc (life, except the whole, growing up with Liz as a parent part, which is absolutely worse). It all makes perfect sense.

I love Jess. I *love* Jess. We all know that I *love* and *deeply relate* to Jess. Is he flawed? Yes. Are there things he can fairly be criticized for? Yes. Did he ask Rory to drop out of Yale and abandon her family? No, he didn't. He would never do that.

Why would it be that after Luke gives Jess the "You Deserve Love" self help book, and Jess actually reads it and takes it in, AND considering he knows how important Yale and her family are to Rory and how he's let her down in the past, WHY would he go straight to Rory and try and convince her to abandon everything to be with him?? MAKE IT MAKE SENSE

[georgianadarcies]

luke saying that liz was a “nut job” and a “selfish basket case” and that “you could never count on liz for anything” and everything else he says about her… gee I wonder why jess had such a terrible childhood

[scoopsgf]

I still remember when someone was like "not enough people appreciate what Liz has managed to do so here's a shout out to Liz!" re: her sobriety, and I don't mean to dismiss something as crucial as that in general, but in Liz's case, it's not so great when your 'changed' life has you dismiss all the damage you did to get there. Like Jess is NEVER given a moment where he can actually be uncomfortable with his mother and be allowed to do that, it's always either Luke or someone else harping on him about it and it's just awful? The kid was pretty much abandoned by his only parent, why is everyone ignoring this fact. And when fandom is all "well he was a troublemaker!!" it's hysterical because the worst he does in Stars Hollow is steal a gnome and garden tools. I doubt he was running a crack ring in New York despite some Logan fans' conspiracy theories that he was actually selling meth during season 4/5 to young children there.

THIS! there’s a reason most sobriety programs have you attempt to make amends with the people you wronged—because those things need to be acknowledged so your relationships can heal, and that way you have a solid support system. sobriety is no joke, and it’s a huge struggle, but you can’t just disregard the people that you hurt. and liz hurt jess. she drank while pregnant with him and was off the wagon throughout his childhood, and im sure there was a part of him wondering: if she could get sober for her second kid, why not for me? also do logan stans actually think that. like pls tell me that’s a joke and not a legitimate theory??

[sagesfandomspot]

Luke suggesting Liz, of all people, to Lane for pregnancy tips genuinely made me anxious. Like, I would’ve trusted Lane more with Taylor Doose idc but not Liz 😭

Nooo kidding like Liz is the LAST person I would send Lane to. Like Luke says "she's a veteran" like sure she's been pregnant a couple times, but did she handle each of those pregnancies well at all?? Binge drinking and kicking her husband out and seemingly not telling her first kid about her second kid all points to no. Lane could easily go to Lorelai for advice, and sure, Luke and Lorelai were on the outs at this point, but there's gotta be someone besides Liz for Luke to point Lane to.

[sarabethsilver]

Exactly this. If Liz weren't a parent? Most of this stuff wouldn't matter. If she wanted to smoke a joint every morning, drink a six-pack every night, and get remarried every year? Have at it. But if you think about those things in the context of her being a parent? And not just to independent 17yo Jess... but to a baby, a toddler, a school-age kid? The implications are really scary.

The BEST case scenario is that they were financially insecure, moved constantly, had a new guy in the house every few months, and had all their things stolen multiple times. She's baseline totally unpredictable, which for a small kid is completely terrifying. And when Jess became resentful, Liz blamed him, shipped him off, and never spoke to him again.

And the real scenario is probably worse than that. Liz, while SOBER, blows up at TJ, throws things at his head, and kicks him out. TJ's few interactions with Jess consist of him saying he wouldn't kick Jess out of bed, mocking him for reading, and smacking him around. And that's the "best guy" she's ever dated. It's not hard to imagine Liz's temper, paired with substance abuse, after you add in a guy who is worse than TJ? Along with Jess at younger ages?

Liz was never retconned. Abusive parents can look really cheerful and funny if you don't have to depend on them to survive.

people are always saying that liz wasn’t as bad as they thought when she came on the show and that jess’ past is just assumptions. i don’t think this is true. liz seems all nice and delightfully cooky as a person, a bit unstable but harmless. this would be true and she would be within her right to be that way IF she wasn’t actually being responsible for another person’s life and well being. it doesn’t matter that she’s nice if she failed at that.

it’s directly stated that she drank while pregnant, has trouble having fun without alcohol, has been drunk at all of her many weddings, that one of her husbands died, that plenty of them robbed her, that she loses appartments, can’t hold down a job etc. the show made a point to show she’s done drugs in the past. and all of these things is being played off like well, she’s just luke’s flighty sister, haha, he has to bail her out, what are you gonna do? but the thing is, even if jess’ role in all these situations is never mentioned we know that he was around during all of it. i don’t think it’s so crazy to assume that it, well, affected him.