#And the second second main target audience are fujoshis

[kyouka-supremacy]

Found slightly better quality versions

Oh...

[darklightsworld]

Hello, I remember you saying some time ago you didn't like how female characters are portrayed in (current) anime because of how annoying and, maybe, misogynistic their archetypes are. Could you maybe elaborate on this point? I feel similar but can't articulate well and always end up feeling like I'm the one being misogynistic whenever this type of subject comes up in conversation x.x Sorry if this comes up as too personal.

Sorry about the late reply, I have been busy with a conference. Also sorry, because my answer is a bit long and all over the place ^^;

This is a difficult question, especially because nowadays people like to think in black and white, and everything is so extreme, like if they don’t like something, then it must be wrong and eliminated, not to mention the policing of every content based to this – which kills diversity and dismisses personal (and gendered) preferences. What I think is really a personal preference and not exactly a general critique of female characters in anime, especially because there are many factors to consider (genre, age and gender or the target audience, cultural background, etc.), and there’s also the audience with its multiple readings.

Personally I dislike most female character types manga and anime has to give, because I’m not really a person for overly feminine and girly things. The Japanese ideal is very cutesy and it’s the standard in both media for men, women and also real life. Not just looks, there is also the behavior side of things, the cutesy, childish, girly ideal, the passivity, helplessness, pretending to be stupid, etc, and I outright hate it when female characters are treated as stupid, clumsy messes. The question is, though, is this ideal really conservative and an embodiment of the toxic patriarchal system? Actually not necessarily. They definitely originate from the oppressive system, but over the decades girls made these ideals their own, and turned them into a weapon to get what they want. Even in real life, fashion is very feminine for me, always with frills, ribbons, flitters, tons of dresses and skirts, and it’s difficult to find plain clothes without any decoration, not to mention all the cuteness in goods and stuff, but as for the behavior of girls and women, the cutesy ideal seems more like a role to be played at a certain age or for certain purposes, like getting things they want and eventually the man. A woman, who didn’t like this ideal herself defined it as “they had to play the wounded deer”. Actually women, who use this role too much and even among women, are usually hated – this is the infamous burikko.

But no matter how they were in their younger years, married women don’t use this role anymore, and they seamlessly slip into a different identity, one that rules the family and the finances with iron fist (I’m stereotyping) – nothing cutesy, helpless or stupid about that. The Japanese themselves are aware of this cutesy role, both men and women, it’s their version of cunning flirtatiousness, it’s just a very different type of flirtatiousness than in the West. For example, there is currently even a tv show enacting certain situations where this cutesy behavior is used to get the man, and the hosts rate how effective the cutesy behavior was. But while I understand intellectually that these are not necessarily misogynistic stereotypes, I have some kind of a visceral hatred for them. The above tv show makes me outright nauseous. It’s a personal preference, and I don’t think I have to like these character types. But I also don’t think they should be erased from Japanese media, and it would be a mistake trying to push my very independent Western values onto such a different culture, so I rather avoid these characters – which is not easy.

So, what does this mean for anime and manga? Both are largely determined by genres (manga more than anime), genres work with clean-cut character types, tropes, traditions and reader expectation, so there is a reason why female (and male) characters are the way they are in different genres. Male-oriented works will obviously have female characters that appeal to men even if the work doesn’t have in your face fanservice shots (though let’s face it, if it’s anime, most of them do). I don’t like these female character types, I don’t think I have to like them, they are clearly not geared toward me, but I also don’t think they shouldn’t be there in a clearly male-oriented media. Sure, there can be discussions about removing overly exploitive situations, harassment and rape or things like that, but I’m not really against letting men have their fun – because I expect to have that same freedom in media geared toward women. There are occasionally unisex anime, but usually they still serve one or the other demographic in a way, and I don’t think it’s possible to create truly unisex anime that everybody will be satisfied with – fanservice for women will always bother men, and fanservice for men will always bother women.

Shōjo manga is a more difficult question, because somewhere in the 70s romance started to focus on imperfect heroines who still got the best guy, because he loved them regardless of their imperfections (“I love you the way you are”), and since then the genre is full of the stupid, clumsy, indecisive, housewife material archetype without any dreams beyond getting the boy (or very old-school women job dreams), which does not appeal to me either, so I usually avoid most romance shōjo manga, especially the high school variant, and even most josei manga, because I don’t care for the adult version of the same with marriage as the end goal *shrug* Actually it’s not even about these things only, like, I disliked Arte too (though not shōjo manga), despite it trying (and failing) to pose as a feminist social commentary, just because the mc way annoying. Fortunately there are a lot of other types of shōjo manga as well, even with more appealing female characters or the best, without female characters (plus the whole BL scene), so it’s not all that bad, at least in manga, not so much in anime. Interestingly, I’m much more compatible with shōjo manga by fujoshi artists. If I like a shōjo manga, usually the artist ends up coming out as a fujoshi after a while by posting BL fanart on her twitter or drawing outright BL manga – it’s been a pattern XD

Anime is more difficult, but I also admit, that my tastes might be extreme. In Japan there are many female fans who love the cute female characters of male-oriented media. Many women like Love Live, for example, because the girls are, I quote, “so cuuuuuute” – while I am fighting nausea… Yeah, Japan is imbued with cute. It’s especially difficult, because I’m usually not willing to watch a series even if there are such female characters in supporting roles or as a second protagonist with male characters I would love to see (Cop Craft was a recent-ish example). And while I avoid female only casts on principle, sometimes there are surprises. For example, the Yashahime anime has terrible writing, but I don’t hate the three main female characters (even if occasionally the anime has some iffy things to say about femininity).

I also mentioned multiple readings. It is important to note that the audience does not necessarily interpret everything the same, especially if there are cultural differences. One of the most famous examples for this is Sailor Moon, which was the incarnation of girl power and emancipation in the West in the 90s, but it has the same “dumb heroine gets the dream guy” trope, and the same conservative message of getting married and giving birth to children as any average shōjo manga, and the same “so cuuuuute” packaging. It really depends on the audience what they get away with.

All in all there are preferences, genre conventions, cultural differences, so the whole thing is quite difficult. But I don’t think you need to be worried about not liking or being uncomfortable with certain character types. And it would be a stretch to consider tastes like mine, for example, misogynistic. Sure, even in real life I make a wide berth around overly girly or feminine women (among others), but it can’t be helped, you can’t like and be friends with everyone, and I guess they wouldn’t like me or wanting to be my friend either. And that’s fine, and I don’t think it’s misogynistic for me to reject certain types of femininity for myself and to interact with, as long as I don’t want to erase or invalidate them, or deem them as inferior – and I don't. Of course, this is the attitude I expect towards myself as well. Live and let live 🖖

[darlingfettucini]

So I just finished Carole & Tuesday

And I have a lot of mixed feelings.

Here is a nonsensical rant

And also, is this the first season of many or the only season?

On the one hand, we have multiple characters who are poc and are represented respectfully. One of the main characters is a black woman, with complex feelings and depth and all that good stuff. That by itself is a huge step for anime, and it's one of the things that drew me in.

However, there were some side characters who were poc that, frankly, were a little disturbing? There was a character in the prelim auditions who was dancing and singing obnoxiously who just kind of seemed like a black lady caricature to me. I liked the Mermaid sisters at first, I thought that they were fun drag queens until they were weirdly aggressive. I was excited for nonbinary drag queen representation that seemed pretty positive and comedic (that song is 👌) , but then that aggression happened at the end and... Seems like that angry-black-lady stereotype. I just want to forget those five seconds happened.

Carole and Tuesday are such natural feeling characters, so cutely animated, that they almost felt out of place in their own anime filled with explosive caricature personalities. I think that that's intentional commentary on the world of showbiz. It was natural talent and uncommercialized music vs AI-designed, fabricated, showy music, except I'm not sure who the winner was.

The main female characters, including Angela, the antagonist, are also great. They're unique and they don't go over the top in their own syereotypes--Angela being a bratty idol, Carole a tough kid who knows the street, Tuesday a naive rich girl. They're complex, they don't always act how you expect. They aren't typical anime girls, and it's refreshing. My feminist sides were quite tickled.

Unfortunately, I did feel like the anime didn't focus on the two main girls enough? I feel like I didn't get to know them enough. I wish I could have felt their struggle. Neither of them had happy lives, but I came out feeling worse for Angela than for them, despite Angela having a lot of her success spoonfed to her. Maybe I'm just really used to anime with saturated angst and flashbacks and high stakes, but I think this one could have leaned into it more. The only flashback of Carole we get is when she's in school, getting bullied, and she fights back. I loved that, and I think a bit more would have been great. This anime is supposed to be sweet and feel-good, but sometimes feel-good means you get a taste of feel-bad for a little antithesis.

The plus size representation. I wasn't expecting anything. I certainly appreciated that the 17 year olds looked like 17 year olds and there weren't minors with weirdly huge busts running around. The character designs seemed pretty varied and fun, and there were a few fat men that existed and didn't follow the usual stupid/constantly eating shtick that every cartoon ever likes.

Also, are we really supposed to believe that these two girls from different backgrounds just get along perfectly right from the start? Best friends forever? We do get some conflict between them towards the end, and there are moments where they both fail (Tuesday is a bad homemaker and can't clean, Carole can't keep a job) but it feels a little too perfect between them. I don't mind that they magically sing well together--I'm into that--but I wanted them to have to work together on their songs and struggle to become closer and united.

OKAY NOW LET'S TALK LGBT.

I'm really not happy about this, overall.

I heard that this anime had a lot of representation, and I was excited about that! But theeeennn. Yeah. No.

Once again, some people are troubled by the mermaid sisters. I liked them until they got aggressive. It would have suited the situation more if they had huffed at the rude judge lady and stomped off the stage, but the aggressiveness was not a good time.

Cybelle definitely has this predatory lesbian stereotype going on, doing all us girls-who-like-girls dirty. I thought it was cool that Tuesday had to face crazy fan pressure and high expectations--it's definitely something someone with her personality would struggle with. Frankly, I think a crazy stalker fan as a plot struggle is exciting, but... I don't think this was handled well. I liked Cybelles character design and her song, though--if only she wasn't out here biting people.

However, there was a healthy lesbian relationship going on somewhere in the world when that happened. One of the side characters talked casually about how she's going to marry a woman. That was great! Characters casually being LGBT without it being a main plot point is SO important!

And now. Some transphobia. Angela's mom is a somewhat disturbing mtf caricature. She's got crazy makeup that doesn't look great, shes got a deep voice, mousey hair. Have ya'll seen mtf folks? They don't look like that!

She apparently was on some kind of medicine that made her aggressive and abuse Angela years before. She seems to have changed since then, but uh, Idk why we out here forgiving people who hit kids. Angela seems to resent her for the abuse (valid), and perhaps for transitioning (yikes), there's a scene that seems to link the two somehow, but we don't know exactly why.

What is with this link between aggression and non-cis, non-straight characters? It's so odd. Is it intentionally homophobic and transphobic? I think it's trying to not be? I think it's the thought that counts and a sign that anime is almost out of the twentieth century.

I liked that there were these characters with different sexualities, but there weren't any scenes that were fan-servicey. It wasn't trying to target a specific fujoshi audience with them, it just had them to have them. It was intentionally diverse. There weren't unnecessary romantic subplots that didn't fit the show's tone. It really felt like it was about music, and I liked so many of the songs. I've been replaying dancing laundry and dance tonight constantly.

Okay, those are my random thoughts. What do you guys think? Anything to add?