#And he's as deep in DATV as he is in DAI and Trespasser; we just encounter him as a person who knows NOTHING about him.

[lillotte17]

I am apparently back on my Art History Bullshit in re: DATV, because we're walking around Arlathan and we found a pair of the golden Fen'Harel's Mourning statues and Rook and Co. make a quip about how Solas must be responsible for them being there which is just...

1) He would not do that. Paint himself in various stages of grief and/or as a way of expressing/preserving events as he experienced them? Yes. Sure. Insist that people erect golden statues of him everywhere? No. Absolutely not. He was trying to get people to NOT label him as a god.

2) Arlathan continued to exist after the creation of the Veil!! It caused massive devastation and it weakened the elves as a whole, but even so, the empire did not collapse in on itself overnight. That means that the people who lived through the end of the reign of the Evanuris, and knew first hand what both they and Solas had done (or at least as much as they could glean through propaganda) either chose to leave the statues of Fen'Harel standing after he raised the Veil OR they ADDED the statues after the Veil?

Both options seem strange. It's possible that even after the destruction wrought by the Veil, enough of the elves were grateful to be free from the Evanuris that they elevated Solas to godhood and complete veneration. At least for a while. And then when Tevinter invaded and elvhen culture was scattered and destroyed, they became bitter towards him again and blamed him for their losses. It feels like a stretch though. Those statues are EVERYWHERE.

Elgar'nan is also petty af. He burned the memories of certain feelings from the minds of every living being. He erased the name of 'The Healer' from every record and mural in the Empire. (which I low-key suspect was Solas, but who knows). There is no way he would allow Fen'Harel statues -GOLDEN Fen'Harel statues!!- to practically line the streets of Arlathan. Why would he want to see the Guy His Wife Still Thinks About on every street corner??

It's in DAI, too. He's got statues in the Dirthamen Temple. He's got ENORMOUS ones in the Exalted Plains. He's paired frequently with not only Mythal, but with Ghilan'nain's halla/hart, and Andruil's owl. There are probably more wolf statues than any other symbols to an elvhen god, with the possible exception of Mythal.

By contrast, Elgar'nan...doesn't really have a symbol that we see anywhere repeatedly? Which is so strange. If he's the "real" head of the pantheon, and he was the most powerful of all the Evanuris...where is he? If he needs the love and adoration of everyone in his empire, why isn't his face plastered all over everything?

It just...doesn't make a lot of sense. I get there being a million Fen'Harel statues in Mythal's temple. And even in the Deep Roads during Trespasser because like...who cares that's just an old mine built from a defeated enemy. But like...1/3 of the statues in Arlathan are Fen'Harel?? What??

[heliomanteia]

Maybe it's just my perception of romance (which, safe to say, is not the cishet allo idea of romance at all) but I think there's more to Solas than just being an archetype in a romance storyline. There's so much to solavellan and the concept of the ship is beautiful but damn like every good thing it falls apart in the hands of some fans who, paradoxically, just don't seem to like Solas all that much. Like, as a standalone character.

[lizzybeeee]

Calling it now:

If there's ever any future installments of Dragon Age there will be no mention of the differentiation between the Dalish or City Elves.

Like in DATV they will simply all be 'elves' and the vallaslin will be reduced to 'cool looking tattoo's that some veil jumpers have' - no mention of the elven pantheon either, because why bother! They're all dead now!

They're all dead and responsible for every lore plot point in Thedas, and there's nothing of mystery or substance left in the world now.

No mention of the culture in the alienage, of the vhenadahl tree, of the horrific racism and systematic abuse the elves have been through...now its just elves. With the way the Veil Jumpers have been set up, and the fact that the elven gods were the enemy in DATV, I find it extremely unlikely that the Dalish will even exist as a group either. Why would they? Their Gods returned and blighted the world - not that the fact is even truly discussed in the game. Elves are just elves, and the notable elves are Veil Jumpers.

Maybe you'll walk in a city, pick up a codex, and get a copy and pasted explanation of history from a DAO codex - a reminder of what we used to have and what BioWare absolutely demolished in their attempt to build a new IP on the bones of Dragon Age. The absolute whiplash in writing, story, and character between DAI and DATV is staggering. How on earth could the studio that made such a gorgeous, rich world of lore surrounding the elves in one game end up utterly bastardizing and reducing it to nothing?

How can you look at a place like the Temple of Mythal and go from those gorgeous golden murals and emerald tiled roofs that reached to the heavens to a place like the Lighthouse? From the Emerald Graves to the ruins of Arlathan - devoid of halls that reach to the heavens and golden murals replaced with stained glass? The entirety of the Trespasser DLC had more character and reverence for what the elven empire once was, and DATV feels as though it's approaching it with the perspective of 'generic elven bullshit with triangles everywhere'. All that unique architecture has been obliterated by adding in World of Warcraft focus crystals and automatons.

How can you go from the atmospheric/environmental storytelling of the Lost Temple of Dirthamen to Solas just blurting everything out? No weight, no double truths or hidden meanings - just blurting it out, getting it said and done with no gravitas? That was Solas' entire thing! People have made threads literally dissecting what Solas says and does not say - now he spits lore out as though it were common, everyday knowledge.

How can anyone justify the sudden emergence of magical automatons everywhere in old elven ruins? As if Dragon Age didn't have a host of enemies/creatures available to use in their stead - or the ability to create something unique to the forest of Arlathan. What happened to the spirit guardians? What happened to the lingering echoes of the elves slaughtered by humans in wars ages past like in DAO? Magic was their very existence - spells taking years or centuries to cast, weaving in and about each other - and you're telling me the ancient elves spent their time creating magical transformers?! It feels/looks so utterly seperate from everything we know of the elves from Dragon Age.

Or look at the Crossroads - listen to how Morrigan speaks of it - the reverence for the past, the misty atmosphere, and the heaviness of this pocket of the world that carries the fading memories of a world and people that no longer exists...now it's reduced to a hub world! People are just popping in and out of it at will!

In Trespasser, the few eluvians that we were available to travel to led to the most lonely, desolate spots of Thedas, which ensured their survival over the past millennia. The mirror in the Deep Roads, the mirror in the ancient stronghold in Ferelden...now they're everywhere!The 'few surviving' eluvians are in every major settlement of Thedas and all are in operating order! More than that, everyone who sees an eluvian knows what it is - this ancient marvel of a world long gone has lost all worth and is reduced to a 'world building' justification for fast travel.

Poor Merrill, slaving for a near decade to try and restore a small sliver of her history, only to have all gravitas and wonder of her discovery utterly made void. All that accomplishment wasted, especially when Bellara can wave her magic omni-tool and fix an eluvian in a matter of hours.

If you took every specific Dragon Age terminology out of the Veilguard and replaced it with generic fantasy bullshit you would never be able to tell the difference. The world of DATV is so divorced from its predecessors its astounding.

[extravagantliar]

Let me preface this - each frame of reference inside Jewish thought will be practised differently; this is why it is practised. we are all still learning, and no Rav or Rebbe can tell me different.

Another preface is that the common denominator varric and I share in practice is that it comes out of the chabad/ashki style of thought, which I attribute to orzammar. Remember, Judaism is not limited to a people. Rather, it reflects in the culture it is in and brings its core tenants and culture with it. this is somewhat a take as-you need it faith, but also, it isn't. It is a question and a thing you must grapple with, and it is a closed practice depending on your strain (aka pat jews or mixed faith marriage not messys! ). We don't know what the past holds or what the future is, we must seek each day as a the intended gift it was. So without further ado - Hanukkah in the sphere of fantasy and overall thedas!

Hanukkah comes from a few different places; it's root in Hebrew means education, and it is also an acronym in Hebrew for eight nights of lights. Historically, it is a story about oppression and rising against the Grecian oppressors and being able to write and read the Torah again, as we do - we hold fast and we win, and we tell stories about it. I will be reframing this story away from a land and more towards a people for the aspect of survival, just FYI. After the great veil of oppression being lifted, they found only enough oil for one night - yet the temple burned brightly for all the nights, all eight a testament that faith had seen them through. While there is no second temple, I always stated there was some sort of trial between the surface and those below, and the dwarves would have recorded every trespass in detail.

As we all remember, to orzammarian dwarves, it is a sin to see the sky and to have someone trespass on your land.

I believe the actual thought of what happened is muddled in contextual thought like the Midrash and Talmud. Was it a great thaig that was raided? Was it the cutting off of the dreams? Seeking oil to light the way out of the dark? It would depend on the sect you asked for; two Jews always equal three opinions, and I will not write over someone else seeking to write a Jewish character. But Ilsa passed to her boys a story of a people who fought to keep who they were - rather than fighting for a place or a people, they fought for who they thought they were - and in my pre-datv documents, it was their identity in relation to the titans and how that affected them moving forward. That row house in Kirkwall always had three menorahs, until there were two, until there was one - until it was a lone candle lit in the middle of Lowtown.

There are foods that go with it - fried ones, to symbolise the oil, latke, doughnuts, something deep fried to symbolise that the oil - our lifeblood lives on.

would this likely be lyrium candles in certain sects, likely, maybe those dwarves very deep in the roads and very devout - but the surface dialogue is very clear lyruim makes most of the populace sick.

so what would this mean contextually in a modern thedas or even dragon age space? it is a winter holiday on a minor scale. it is on an academic calendar rather than the ruling calendar and starts on the 25th of Kislev. It is recommended to light as many menorahs as people in the home, or vary the amount of menorahs depending on your sect, always have the candles in a straight line other than one helper candle ( shamash ) above the rest. you can make a Hanukkiah out of anything ( real we once did four small bonfires and a big bonfire as the helper ).

granted, there is some fancy verbiage I should be using, but I like to keep things simple - I am willing to take civil questions!

Varric is not a practitioner until he is much older.

[visceralcoma]

So it wasn't explicitly stated in the games, but when I saw these two codex entries, one in base game DAI, and the other in trespasser, I interpreted what the Evanuris/Ancient Elves did as stealing lyrium = theft of their culture and their land. It is what I assume the writers were conveying with it as one helluva foreshadow that no one but a handful of people clued in on. But because it painted the elves negatively, it was never a popular theory in fandom.

This elven writing found in the Arbor Wilds is so old as to be incomprehensible. There are whispers from the Well of Sorrows. It's impossible to understand the entire text, but certain parts suddenly reveal a shadow of their original meaning. "In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing." For one moment there is a vivid image of two overlapping spheres; unknown flowers bloom inside their centers. Then it fades. (Source) (color emphasis my own)

That blue section is what first clued me in. First this is coming from the Ancient Elvhen perspective. And read very much to me like justification for their impending actions at the time. Trying to tell/convince/propaganda themselves and others that what they are doing is right and just. That in the death of the pillars of the earth, the world would blossom. And already such heavy handed language was a red flag for me, but I had nothing else to go on.

Then we had more information revealed in The Descent where we got context from the pillars of the earth and a dwarven perspective, of the sense of loss of culture and identity.

THEN the icing of the cake of what solidified my interpretation was a codex in Trespasser:

In the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting: "Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!" For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire. The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy. A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic. Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast. A voice whispers: "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all."

(source)(color emphasis my own)

the use of "their demesne" was the big clue for me. The use of the word demesne specifically. They admit the land was theirs (the titans). And by striking the titans down, they stole it and gave it to the "People", aka the Ancient Elves.

unrelated but sorta: I have a knack for sussing out plot twists and story beats in Bioware games. I sussed out Solas as an antagonist before I even reached Skyhold in DAI. Sadly I never documented this sussing out because I was still new to dragon age and DAI was my first dragon age. I didn't want to say anything without going back and playing DAO or DA2 in case I was horribly wrong and he was like a cameo character or something. My instincts about him ended up being right anyway. For DATV if you ask my discord peeps because we were simul-playing on stream. I was less than ten hours in and I was sniffling/on the verge of tears going "Guys, I think Varric is dead." despite very much not wanting him to be, so when the reveal happened for everyone else, they were like "How did you know?!" and I had to point out all the hints.

Just read the phrase “the evanuris found lyrium” and I’m like. “Like they discovered it?!” Are you kidding me? No the elves *stole* the lyrium from the Dwarves. Removed a part of their culture and killed a major figure/part of their whole life.

Saying the evanuris “found lyrium” is like saying how Americans “found (insert item)” when we really know it’s a thinly veiled cover up of colonization.