#ANYWAY flowey isn't just a sad kid

[the-great-papyru]

i feel like undertale would go a lot differently if flowey remembered to sleep. like you think "how could flowey possibly confuse chara with frisk" but obviously you have never been on 0 hours of sleep for several years. i'd assume normal processing goes out the window in that scenario.

[justali-anne]

Thought Week: Flowey

Flowey is apparently the most popular character right now! And while that is really intriguing, I'm not surprised! He's one of the most complex and most tragic characters in the entire game. So, here are my thoughts about him.

(BTW, if you want to share your thoughts on Flowey, please reblog and share them! I love it when people come together to talk about a certain character, it brings a sense of community and I REALLY want to be a part of that. So please, reblog!)

(Also, the subheadings are gonna be colour-coded based on the character. I love colour-coded characters with a passion.)

First Impressions

I first encountered Flowey during my MLP phase when I was 11. I was watching a Fluttershy Plays Undertale Let's Play, and to be honest, I didn't think much of Flowey at first. To me, he was just the meanie that tricked Fluttershy into running into his friendliness pellets. I was more focused on Fluttershy, to be honest.

However, that is my earliest memory of Undertale. My first exposure to Undertale, funnily, wasn't Sans. It was Flowey. Well, Fluttershy, but Flowey was the first Undertale character I ever saw. Toriel was the second.

And I only just saw Flowey as a cheeky flower with a thirst for blood. I didn't look into him as anything more than that. Not until I got into Undertale as a 16 year old, anyway.

When I actually did get into the Undertale fandom and learned about his backstory, I thought, "Oh. That's a cool character. A sad one, but cool nonetheless." He was interesting, but not my favourite. I liked his sassiness and his tragic side and his creativity, but other than that, there just wasn't a lot I could say about him.

My Thoughts Now

Frick, I love this guy! Not as much as the Skelebros, but he's by far one of the most interesting characters in the whole game! While there wasn't a lot I could say about him in the past, there's definitely a lot I can say about him now!

By the way, I'm going to talk about Asriel here too, since I consider them to be the same person. Well... They are, but I think people tend to forget that.

One of my favourite things about Flowey (and Asriel) is that he's actually a genuinely creative person! He's creative in such a childlike manner, and I find that so very charming. Some of his incredible creations include things like...

Photoshop Flowey!

And the God of Hyperdeath!

Just look at this kid go!!!!! He is clearly a creative genius!!!!

No, but seriously, he gives heavy edgy 12-year-old vibes, and that just works so well, Toby Fox is so good at writing complex characters, it's just... AJEJHFHSJSJG. ...!?:.

It really hammers home that Flowey is a CHILD. He is a child who never got to grow up, who went through something insanely traumatic, who misses his best friend, whose loneliness has driven him to commit terrible acts just to FEEL SOMETHING. I used to see Flowey as a sadistic villain! But now it's just... sad. Sad and nuanced.

Even Flowey isn't all evil. Heck, I have a hard time even seeing him as evil anymore. He's definitely a bad guy, but he's just so... tragic.

Honestly, I think people often forget about Flowey's ability to be GOOD despite his lack of compassion. He is capable of making good choices! Mostly during the True Mercy ending, but even without a SOUL, Flowey is still capable of being nice. And that is another thing I like about him, and something I feel like should be discussed more often.

This is only one example.

Flowey and Asriel

There's a lot more I can say about him, but these are the first things that pop into mind when I think of him. He's such a sad character, it's not even funny. Personally, when I write him, I like to write him as very nuanced. His psychology is what I'm most interested in. The same can be said for a lot of characters, though.

To me, Flowey and Asriel are two sides of the same coin. Simultaneously, I see them as the same person. They represent periods in his life. Asriel for the simpler, happier times, before everything went to shit (excuse my language), and Flowey as the traumatised result of that shit.

And no matter what he does...

He can never get those simpler times back. And that's why Asriel can't stay...

People always talk about Asriel as this sweet-hearted, innocent crybaby, but I think that Flowey gives hints as to what he was really like in life. He was someone who would do anything to make his best friend happy, who liked to engage in mischief, who was a sore loser. And yes, I still think he was a kind-hearted soul... When he had a soul. I still think Flowey has some shades of kindness in there. Some emotions too.

Flowey ISN'T emotionless. I think we know that already, though. Throughout the game, Flowey displayed emotions like frustration, fear, excitement, sadness and grief. He GRIEVED for the loss of his compassion. For the loss of his best friend. But eventually, he just became numb to it, especially after he got the RESET ability.

Oh...

The Narrative

Flowey is up there as one of the most important characters in the entirety of Undertale. That is just a fact.

Story-wise, his death, as well as Chara's, set in motion the series of events that led to what the Underground is like by the time Frisk falls down. It created a whole domino effect! If it weren't for Asriel's death, Asgore would have never made that policy, Toriel would have never retreated to the Ruins, Alphys wouldn't have done those experiments, Sans wouldn't have found an anomaly in the timeline, and so on.

In a meta sense, Flowey is also the most important character, especially when it comes to resets and time loops. Imagine having the power to do whatever you want and take away the consequences. It sounds exciting, but eventually, you just grow numb to it all. Perhaps you'd want to try something different. Something more... extreme. He reflects the player in such a terrifying way, although I can argue that he had more freedom than Frisk because Frisk is literally being controlled by us, and in terms of exploration, we don't really stray off the path that much. But Flowey could go anywhere, do anything, and that's what makes him more scary.

Also, I've just had a thought. In typical RPG games, you come across enemies and bosses that you have to defeat (usually by killing or dismantling), and if you fail to do that, you die. "Kill or be killed".

And that's why Flowey's so important. If it weren't for Flowey, we wouldn't have Undertale the way it is. He's more than just the main villain, he's a representation of a player who's been playing the same game for far, far too long.

Conclusion

I like Flowey! He's not my favourite, but I can see why he would be to a lot of people. His tragedy, his creativity, and his role in the narrative are the three things that stick out to me about him the most.

But most of all... I love that he's essentially a bratty, traumatised kid.

I haven't covered every single aspect about Flowey, but this is just thoughts about him, this isn't an analysis or anything.

If you want to add your thoughts about Flowey, please please please please PLEASE add them in the notes! I wanna see people come together to talk about a character, it would be so cool!

See you tomorrow with Papyrus!

[derangedanomaly]

Here we go again lol

(Couldn't find the link sryy)

21. "Mh, I don't rly like my hands I think?"

22. "Probably like- stamina and intelligence?"

23. "Well.. I do it myself? I think I would understand, but it depends on the lie honestly"

24. "I like the cold^^"

25. "... I don't like saying it honestly, but I like hearing it, and not saying it back is sooo rudeeee"

26. "... I hate doing it"

27. Just laughing

28. "... Yeah.. "

29. "Pretty high"

30. "Many things! I don't think I should name them tho, idk who's listening after all"

31. "Who the hell needs food anyways" <- isn't a messy eater tho

32. "Mh...I can tell you which one made me feel the most loved? ^^"

33. "Ohhh:D called it, every moment with Ace tbh lol"

34. "Touch. Because I like hugs, and when killing I like to feel the blood and organs"

35. "Mh, depends"

36. "Mh, if I won't get killed, I'd ask Nm abt passive,it's rly interesting to me, and I like Nm! ^^ and I like passive, well- the one I know abt at least"

37. ".... I would say the past, but I would change so much and wouldn't meet Ace.. So the future! ^^"

38. "..my parents, toriel and asgore? Prob also Chara and asri-.. Flowey."

39. ".. I'm used to being alone.. So alone I'd say"

40. "I'm afraid of many things honestly, like monsters, I also hate it when ppl are taller then me cuz it makes me feel vulnerable.. But rly fear?.. Uhm.. I always start panicking when chaos gets mad or sad in anyway... hes.. pretty unreadable in those moments.."

21. "I'm not very fond of my face...it brings back bad memories......"

22. "Probably strength and intelligence. I mean- I have a fucking PHD."

23. "..... Next question."

24. "I like the cold weather, for... obvious reasons.."

25. "Telling someone you adore that you love them is not hard.. I like saying it only to Kris. Everyone else can honestly just fuck off-"

26. "I do not try and search for help. It's too late for me to be honest. What else is there for someone that lost it all?"

"HEY! THAT'S MY FUCKING LINE-"

"SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU ZEST FEST-"

Seems like we have a small disturbance! Apologies.

27. "....... You're kidding. Right?" Of course he did lol.

28. "..I don't know. No one ever tried tickling me before. I mean... When you're in Nightmares realm, not many people go up to you and tickle you. Actually- let me rephrase that! No one ever comes up to me and tries to tickle me."

29. "I killed hundred upon hundred monsters, and humans. You really think that my pain tolerance would be low? Tch. Of course it's HIGH."

30. "Oh... I'd tell you.. but do you really think I would trust you enough to tell you?"

31. "The only messy eaters are Ted and Blade, not me."

32. "...." He's dead quiet...

33. ".....////" He's refusing to answer and avoids eye contact...

34. "Probably vision or hearing... I tend to rely on those senses the most.. heh.. why? Well wouldn't you like to know..."

35. "I don't try and make small talk. Why talk at all if you have nothing intelligent to say?"

36. "The only only that would be brutally honest is probably Nightmare... I mean- don't get me wrong! Chaos and Ted are honestly pretty blunt too. But they both sugar coat it... Uh... I don't know what I'd ask him though... Probably why he's so cruel. But he'd most likely avoid to answer this question."

37. "Realistically? The past.... Honestly? Future, so I could be finally dead-"

38. "Oh...well.... Probably the twins- I mean... Nightmare and Chaos.. but both had different effects. I like Chaos more.. I- have to admit that I'm a bit of a fan of his- Don't Tell him that though."

39. "I'd rather be alone... But I'm tied for life to the king.. Nightmare. So... I don't really have a choice. Do I?"

40. ".... Nightmare... But- I honestly fear Chaos more than Nightmare- for some unknown reason... Like- yeah, Chaos isn't the one pulling the strings! But I feel as though Chaos has a... Problem with his emotions at times..? May be because he's a clone, and doesn't really know about emotions.. I spend a week trying to decipher what exactly is going on with him, but I just- can't figure it out.."

[askfallenroyalty]

"After a few months of post-pacifist, Chara feels they "have to true reset" after something bad happens to Flowey"

Ruh-roh; if it's not too spoilery, what happens to Flowey that causes Chara to feel the need to True Reset?

//probably won't be explored for AGES. cause the kids have so much on their plate they're not going to reminisce on why they got on this quest to SAVE Asriel.

And because the True Reset wasn't a year (cause really, that was too extreme in my writing) Frisk isn't like, THAT upset over losing that timeframe. I mean, don't get me wrong, it still sucks, but they were struggling with life post pacifist which is something I regret not committing to. (Frisk implies this way back in Chapter 1)

Frisk likes the adventure underground because its predictable. It's easier than the scary unknown, and Frisk missed their ghost buddy. (another change where because it was so long, Frisk forgot Chara which. I feel is a bit too mean/sad as a story beat. the two saved monsters together. they literally shared a SOUL! of course Frisk cares about Chara and wouldn't forget them!)

anyway i'm going to spoil this plot point. ignore this if you just want to read it in comic.

like in Chapter 4, 5 monsters go missing. (Sans and Papyrus aren't included so it's 5) Frisk is staying with Toriel and is ambassador. There's a lot of tension from that responsibility where they feel torn to just be Toriel's child and being responsible for the peace. Tensions become high but Asgore brushes it off, more humans start to visit monsterkind's home base area. Monsters start exploring the world, more and more monsters go missing and more conflicts build up. Frisk is Scared. The underground is predictable and safe once you know what happens. This is scary, and Frisk has to deal with humanity up front.

Meanwhile, Flowey is the caretaker of the Ruins, mainly gardening and overseeing Chara's grave. When humans start to see Mt.Ebott as a tourist spot, Flowey's home is invaded and defiled. This gets bad enough that a bunch of humans picnic at Chara's grave and get upset when Flowey tells them to scram.

This leads to the humans stomping on the grave (not that anyone knows that it's a grave, but I think on some level Flowey sees it as it. Canon Flowey only pieces that together in NM). Flowey freaks out, gets hit when trying to stop them. Chara's life force is within the flowers + their worry over Flowey causes a True Reset.

This time, while Frisk is upset at being ripped from their life, they understand Chara's dilemma more. Their worries as ambassador and their wish to escape makes this a bit of a relief. (in my thought process that this hard period would of been passed and Frisk would of been happy, but they didn't get the chance to cause of the True Reset)

Also, I want to show Chara and Frisk's bond is greater and more mutual in this version, so Frisk also missed their ghost pal. Cause Chara went through all of that with them. They understand Frisk more than anyone else. They literally shared a SOUL together. Of course Frisk wants their friend back, and right now they're upset. Of course Frisk would see their job as peace keeper and savior incomplete.

in the first writing of AFR I never explained why Chara wanted to True Reset. I was saving to reveal Flowey and Chara had a fight, or that Flowey was growing more depressed and it'd be foreshadowing for Asriel's present day depression but I already felt bad over how the backstory was handled and didn't wanna add more onto it.

Now, when Asriel is king Frisk can reflect on what the original timeline was like, and how stressful it was and Chara can be like "yeah and humans coming in only caused problems for us too. we couldn't protect ourselves." which shows the stakes of what could happen if Asriel doesn't handle things "correctly" this time. Which obvs builds up to the border closing, which while, yeeeessss monsters were unsafe and public understanding of them was limited and humans can suck, is STILL VERY BAD.

hoping this all works better to show character motivations and makes things feel more organic and less angsty x-x like the whole point was they were trying to help Flowey, the focus should be on the kindness of that. And yes, its important to respect Frisk's life too, but I feel it can be in character if pushed in this scenario to want to use the SAVE power alongside Chara. Which is why they can remember true resets, cause they're still a team

[chompsloudly]

So some character placements for my au plus explainations.I accidentally went on a rant at one point

Error-muffet

Ink-flowey

fresh-burger pants

Dream-asriel

Nightmare-chara

Horrortale sans-cannibal/butcher grillby

Dust sans-dustbelief papyrus

Geno-either muffet or undyne

King multiverse-asgore?

Blue-underscramble mettaton

Killer sans-killer sans

Sci sans- alphys

core frisk-core frisk

lust-idk

fell-idk. Possibly fell mk? Mad mew mew

epic- maybe undyne

Cross-I have no idea

Time kid- monster kid

Error explanation

Strings, threatening, muffets already kinda out of it if you read her genocide dialogue. Add an eternity in a white void and you get destroyer muffet

Ink explaination

It makes since for flowey to be ink since they both have no soul. I would've made asgore the protector but he doesn't do much protecting. Plus flowey seems to be capable of some range of emotion, which is better than nothing

Fresh explaination

Fresh is canonically a parasite and I randomly thought it would be funny to have him possess burger pants and it stuck

Dream explaination

Asriel is perfectly suited for the role. Just look at the fluffy boi. Kind, sweet, sunshine, helpful. I honestly don't know why there isn't any dream-asriel, well, anything.

Nightmare explaination

Chara is asriels sibling, and they're the more malevolent of the two. Also it only makes sense.

Horror explaination

Made a new au for this grillby since I couldn't think of a good one for the in-code cannibal role. Grillby was the best fit since he already owns a bar.

Dust explaination

I was lazy

Genocide

I'm not sure whether to use muffet again or undyne. It would make sense to use muffet due to errors backstory, but undyne literally dies due to being too determined, which makes her the better candidate. But then that might result in an error undyne, so I'm not sure which one to do

King multiverse explaination

I didn't know where to put king asgore so I made him king multiverse. Admittedly I don't know anything about king multiverse at all, so I'm not completely sure

Swap explaination

Underscramble mettaton is my favorite when it comes to the 'excitable human catcher' role. It was the only character I considered and I can't think of any better anyways

Killer explaination

Unfortunately I can't leave sans out comepletely so I let my favorite of the sans au's stay. He's got a good reason to be a sans that isn't just sans reskin

Sci explaination

I'm going to be very honest when I say that I hate the fact that sci's a sans and not an alphys. Y'know, the literal royal scientist. So I decided to fix that by doing what should have been done in the first place. On a less rant-ish note, I'm kinda tempted to make her a fell alphys

Core explaination

The goal is to reduce the amount of sans aus, so changing core would be pointless. Plus core's a good character

Lust explaination

I have no idea who to use for this role.

Fell explaination

I originally didn't know who to use, but then I remembered mad mew mew existed. I actually want to use a mad mew mew fell instead of a sad mew mew fell though. Anywho I gave mad mew the fell role since she's knows for being angry in the first place.

Epic explanation

Im not completely sure, but undyne seems like a good fit. From what I've seen of epic while he seems laid back he is also a protector. Naturally undyne seems like the best fit. But now the geno problem shows itself again.

cross explaination

I have absolutely no idea who to use

Time kid explaination

A last minute thought, I only gave them this position due to time kid being a kid. Like king multiverse, I don't know anything about timekid. This position is most likely temporary at best

I still don't know where to put all of the characters on this list as I'm not completely sure of the sanses they'll be replacing. Or I can't decide between two characters. Still don't know where to put napstablook. Or gaster. And I want to give toriel a better role cause nim dies immediately.

overall I need help and any criticism is appriciated. Let me know any characters I forgot or would be better suited for another role.

[ask-the-underhope-crew]

Underhope Chapter 3

Story written by:Ask-The-Underhope-Crew

Last time:

Frisk walked up to the dummy, entering a fight. The world once again went black and white, her red soul glowing bright as ever. Frisk saw 4 buttons, outlined in orange appear infront of them. [*FIGHT.] [*ACT.] [*ITEM.] [*MERCY.] Frisk chose Mercy instead of Act. The Dummy was spared, Frisk won. "O-Oh okay. Good job my child." Toriel said.

Frisk smiled proudly. She moved over to follow Toriel out of the room. She already loved the Underground..well..aside from the Flowey thing.

----------------------------------------------

This time:

Frisk followed Toriel into the next room. Frisk had taken notice to how almost all the walls were purple. Entering the next room, Toriel stops a few feet away from the door. "There is another puzzle in this room, ¿I wonder if you can solve it?".

Toriel began to walk down the pathway. Frisk glanced at the vines going down the walls before following. While walking Frisk noticed a some-what more narrow hallway ahead.

Walking into the hall; Toriel stopped by a puzzle. Frisk had not noticed since a Froggit lept fourth. The walls and floor went black while four buttons appeared infront of Frisk. The enemys name was shown.

"Froggit, huh?" Frisk mumbled to herself. Her hand touched Act. She gave the Froggit a compliment. [*Froggit didn't understand what you said but was flattered anyway.] 'Aww.' All of a sudden, Toriel came over.

She glared at the Froggit, intimidating it. The poor Froggit began to slowly move away, looking down slightly. Frisk felt bad. She brushed it off and watched Toriel stop at the puzzle again. She went to catch up, but not before reading the sign on the wall.

"The western room is the eastern room's blueprint." It read. Frisk sighed. What kind of puzzel is it- what the hell?! Frisk stared at the spiked path ahead. She shook slightly. Mom isn't gonna put her through this, is she? Frisk looked up at Toriel.

"This is the puzzle, but..." Toriel began. 'But..?' Frisk thought. "Here, take my hand for a moment." Toriel finished. Frisk took her hand and let her lead her through the dangerous puzzle.

"Puzzles seem a little too dangerous for now." Toriel said with a small nervous smile. Toriel began to walk into the next room, Frisk following. This time it was a long corridor like hallway. Nothing but vines on the walls and a pillar at the end of it.

"You have done excellently thus far, my child. However... I have a difficult request to ask of you." Frisk began to sweat nervously. "W-What could the be?" Frisk stuttered slightly. "I would like you to walk to the end of the room by yourself." 'You call that difficult? Difficult would be spending a day with Flowey!!

"Forgive me for this." Toriel said, running off before Frisk could respond. Frisk sighed, she began to walk down the hallway. Now she can think about everything she has done wrong. Hah, just kidding. She needs to figure out what she did wrong to make Flowey want to kill her.

She was still slightly sad and annoyed that Flowey, the first monster she met, had tried to kill her after tricking her. Little did she know, he was watching. She shook her head, realizing she almost made it to the end. She put on a smile and walked a bit faster.

Toriel walked out from behind the pillar once Frisk reached the end. "Greetings, my child. Do not worry, I did not leave you. I was simply behind this pillar the whole time!" Toriel smiled. Frisk sighed in relief. It's true she realised that but she couldn't help but feel like she was being watched.

"Thank you for trusting me. However, there was an important reason for this exercise...to test your independence." Toriel continued. "I must attend to some business, and you must stay alone for a while." Frisk froze for a moment. What if some other monster shows up and kills her?! Her mind flooded with thoughts.

"Please remain here. It's dangerous to explore by yourself. I have an idea! I will give you a CELL PHONE. If you have a need for anything, just call. Be good, alright?" Toriel finished. Frisk was about to respond but Toriel already left. Frisk sighed and sat down. What will she do while Toriel is gone?

Frisk had an idea. She got up and left the room. Simple. She wont wait. Frisk entered the next room and noticed a Froggit. She was about to walk over when Toriel called. "Hello? This is Toriel. You have not left the room, have you?" Shoot, how'd she know?! "There are a few puzzles ahead that I have yet to explain."

"Nnope, still in the room!" She lied but Toriel didn't hear her. "It would be dangerous to try and solve them yourself. Be good, alright?" Toriel hung up. Frisk walked over to the Froggit and smiled. "Ribbit, ribbit. (Excuse me human, I have some advice for you about battling monsters."

Frisk turned their head slightly. "Hm?" She would accept advice. "If you ACT a certain way or FIGHT until you almost defeat them...They might not want to battle you anymore. If a monster does not want you fight you, please...Use some MERCY, human.) Ribbit, Ribbit." The Froggit finished. Frisk only smiled and nodded. "Of course!"

Frisk looked over and noticed a golden shining star. She went towards it, she reconized it. It was a save point. She rested her hand on it, letting the warm sensation run through her body. She smiled. "Saved."

------

It's been proved that Flowey does follow the player. If you go back after dialog and such you will see him go into the ground. One of the most noticeable places are by the bridge while meeting Papyrus. After the whole thing happens when you go back a bit you will see Flowey for a split second.

[askfallenroyalty]

I just read the surprise/early update and the sound I made followed by "Torielllll....! :(" after I finished... the anguish I felt is indescribable. This poor, poor woman, if only she knew why this feeling of not knowing what is "real" was because of the resets... You captured the feelings of terror, discombobulation, and bewilderment perfectly. A perfect punch in the gut!

oof yeah i feel in hindsight Toriel learning about the timelines was under-explored. ALSO SORRY IM RAMBLY TONIGHT LOL i just feel like talkin at lenght so apologies for all the long posts past midnight aslfkjasdlf. also THANK YOU for all ur kind asks i don't always answer cause when i get nice asks i like looking at them often but that means i don't respond ;o;

Her reaction is to care about how Asriel must of felt using the power (and granted, in the tumblr version she doesn't know/understand the fact that Asriel was Flowey for a long time before being revived as Asriel. Though in the redraw she's going to learn earlier.) anyway she's like, oh, that must been tough on Asriel ): how lonely

but like??? now i realize she'd have permanent deja vu from all the reloads that weren't erased with a true reset. (which, in AFR universe, isn't even a guarantee) she's suffered from this ability, more so than anyone else as she's the only one to truly know all the kids who've come through the Ruins. (Asgore is also the only other guaranteed one, but uh, we already know his... baggage... with the reloads...)

anyway when she finds out, she's going to go "ok? insane but you have scientific evidence let me adjust to this wild new information" to "wait wait were those unstable years when the kids fell REAL? my kids actually DID kill me? HELLO?" and that's going to be. interesting to explore!

i feel like it could even be an EARLY reveal! I feel like Hol specifically is going to want to apologize for what they did. And now that I have opportunity to explore how Asriel is going to explain the age-up is more than just "oh yeah i was a flower for a while" cause. Toriel KNOWS the amalgamate experiments are (vaguely) recent. She fired Dr.Alphys over it. She knows the details now. So Asriel's explanation of being a flower for years in secret makes no damn sense if they've grown to 16 years old when they died at 12.

So yeah, that's going to be something that'll be pushed to a boiling point in the next chapter(s). HOW exactly is she going to handle all this??? like obviously, she's not going to treat this the same if this were adults committing these horrible acts. they're children. Toriel will continue to love them and forgive them because it truly is not the same situation as it would be with, say, Asgore making the calcuatled decision to murder innocent people. like Hol thinking they're some adventurer badass and killing a monster is very much different from that. (and yeah Asgore is more complicated as it relates to war and the barrier and all that bla bla)

Anyway rambling aside i really really look forward to exploring this. cause like, frankly, toriel canonically has all that angsty bs that people put on sans (when he doesn't even remember reloads or gets killed except last minute in no mercy runs 🙄) like toriel had 6 human kids who canonically reloaded around her. give me THAT angst and exploration of that's consequences. I like getting the chance to explore more of Toriel's psychology, baggage and her journey to moving past that. i'm really sad we don't get to see how toriel improved as a mother and person in AFR but rather just that she did. now we get to!!! fuck yeah!

but yeah god what a horrifying, truly awful thing to experience. like on one hand, she must be relieved "oh so there's nothing actually wrong with my reality i don't have a life altering memory related mental illness (yet)" but also "oh so that was all real and i can never truly look at these kids without knowing they've done something truly, truly unforgivable to me. (but i will forgive them)"

AND NOW i'm thinking that toriel had to been told by flowey at some point what they've done to her too. in one of those reloads, flowey likely confessed to get a reaction from her. after the shock of it, she'd pretend it didn't bother her to forgive them. and that'd build up resentment because Flowey doesn't want to be forgiven, they want punishment and consequences and for it to have mattered.

just. AUGH. so many thoughts on this its killing me inside