#AND DEIDAMIA TOO she and achilles have a ….. not very good relationship to say the least

[maruyaaya]

OH MY GODDDD IM OBSESSED IM OBSESSED achilles is my fav greek figure ever i love how u drew him sm oh my gosh i love his stupid face sm. i’m so amazed ur art is so gorgeous im dumbfounded im obsessed

some of you may know that i’m about 22k words into an enemies to lovers telemachus/neoptolemus fic rn and for those of you don’t know that, hi, i am in fact writing that.

their dynamic is very special to me (especially the version in my head where they attempt to kill each other on multiple occasions but it only causes them to fall more in love with each other) but genuinely the way i came to the idea of shipping them was literally just bc i was thinking “odysseus and achilles would HATE to be in-laws”

like you cannot tell me that achilles wouldn’t be spinning in his grave at the idea of his son dating the son of odysseus. his ass could NOT handle having to see odysseus at family gatherings. and odysseus would find it all so fucking funny. like on principle he would not approve of his son dating achilles’ son, but he’d also see achilles bursting a blood vessel trying to be diplomatic and he’d decide that it’s all worth it.

and in my head there’s this modern au where like achilles is alive and neo, his estranged son who he doesn’t have a good relationship with, comes to him like “father i want to get your blessing on my relationship” and achilles is thinking “ok let’s not fuck this up this is my chance to rekindle my relationship with my son” but then when neo says “i am gay. i am dating odysseus’ son” achilles has a fucking panic attack and neo assumes it’s bc achilles is homophobic and he’s like “father i cannot change who i am. i am gay” and achilles is frantically like “NO IDC THAT UR GAY BUT CAN YOU PLEASE BE GAY WITH LITERALLY ANYBODY ELSE??????”

it’s romeo and juliet core if you think abt it. the feud is achilles hating odysseus and odysseus thinking it’s the funniest thing ever

ofc i actually do really like neo and telemachus’ potential dynamic and i have a lot a lot of thoughts on it but i just think it’s so funny to look at achilles and odysseus’ perspective on this

[random-krab]

TSOA rant

I think it is time i bring up my change of tags If you don’t know or haven’t noticed I have changed most tags on my Iliad and “TSOA” posts tags to Anti-madeline miller, there are multiple reasons for this for one re-reading Tsoa her blatant fetishism of gay men is clear and she misuses the mythology and each characters original characterization, But i’m getting ahead of myself.  I’m going to start with Patroclus because he is a protagonist in this, which I admit isn’t a bad idea in itself but she changes so much about him that is hard to recognize but let's start with his age, while we don’t know his exact age we do know that he is older than Achilles because he was a squire, role model, and counsel to him, But she changes this which I admit makes sense when trying to appeal to a modern audience but in doing that you strip him of any solo characterization and authority, He goes from an angry boy to a generally calm man who can make good decisions which really makes his choice to go into battle in disguise really impactful. But she changes that and therefore changes his original personality. Speaking of personality she does something bluntly homophobic which is the feminization of Patroclus’s character, Patroclus goes from a very good warrior, strategist and medic to only a medic in her “Retelling” it is very reminiscent of the “Warrior husband and Healer wife” trope as pointed out by @booklover42 on my "Tsoa isn't accurate" Post; fun fact; most death counts either end with Patroclus having a higher or same body count as Achilles and It is never hidden that he is a fighter.

Speaking of Achilles. Achilles is probably the worst in this. A Lot of his personality, relationships, and actions are retconned which is weird for someone like madeline miller who claims to care about the mythology and accuracy of her “retellings” to do. The first thing I really hate is his relationship with Thetis, his mother. Her overall characterization is horrible, in the iliad she is a caring mother who might be slightly overbearing but she isn’t nearly as bad as she is in this. Her interactions with Patroclus automatically turns the reader against her even after finding out she was forced into marriage.

AND SPEAKING OF MARRIAGE. I will say this over and over and over again. Achilles was sexually attracted to women and men (or at least patroclus). You have no idea how angry I get when I see posts talking about how Achilles was gay. Because 2 things 1. No he wasn’t, he was just Greek literally no one would care about him having a male lover (expect maybe Peleus even then it would be more about the heir aspect of yk having a wife) the only point anyone has a thing to say about his relationship with Patroclus in a negative light is in  that one Shakespearean play where they just complain that they are having too much sex and aren’t doing anything. And Actually saying he was gay is weird because they didn’t have a word for it (Well actually that's kind of a lie they had pederasty, eromenos, and Kinaidos but uh) and 2. He had a wife and at least 1 sex slave of which I will get into later. But on to the marriage thing, His marriage to Deidamia wasn’t her sexually assaulting him or really even forced by thetis like it's implied (actually in one account its said that Achilles sexually assaulted her) but like no, in most versions they just started a intimate relationship while he was in disguise and eventually got married and then he left for war. She wasn’t a big character in the Iliad but she was nowhere near as antagonistic and Madeline miller describes her as. Another fun fact actually Neoptolemus was never taken by thetis?, I don’t know where Madeline got that from but it was in none of the sources I read. But Deidamia actually begged and tried to convince Neoptolemus not to go to war just like Thetis did with Achilles. And Actually let me get to the sex slave  Briseis, someone everyone loves in tsoa but her original character is nice, like actually she doesn’t have a lot of screen time but she is a good character, she was someone of decent standing reduced to a sex slave and a prisoner of war and a thing to be passed off and taken away at a king's wish not to mention she was promised that she would be married but achilles died before they had the chance and when his son arrived and wanted her she would rather try to run away and die in the process then be handed off to him. She is an amazing character and she is a good representation of what war looked like for the people taken captive but in tsoa she is made to be a pity character only used to make the main characters look like good men. I have nothing else to say at least right now anyway I may add to this later but yeah

[marsdeathdefiances]

Do you like The song of achilles? Why or why not?

This is a complicated and lengthy answer so stick with me on this one. I have a very love-hate relationship with tsoa for several reasons, like the characterization of various characters or how it seems like x, y, z characters can never do anything wrong and it’s everyone else (that’s at least how I’m interpreting it, granted everyone has different takes and views on things) and all that. Now I might be biased because I did read the Iliad and the Odyssey and was already very thoroughly into Greek mythology before I read tsoa, but still. And also let me preface this by saying this is all just my interpretation of the book, you don’t need to have the same thoughts and feelings and opinions on it that I do. I don’t care. Like we’re not all going to have the same feelings and opinions on it and that’s okay. This isn’t me trying to sway anyone’s opinion on it. If you love it you love it, if you don’t you don’t.

Like I have serious beef with the way Patroclus is written in tsoa. Like in the Iliad he wasn’t the scrawny, flower boy, pacifist equivalent shadow of Achilles that we get in tsoa. Like tsoa does get right that he was a good healer and that a lot of people liked him and all that. But there was a lot more to him. He was very friendly and sociable and well had a life outside of Achilles (granted tsoa is about them, I’ll give it that, but still). Like in the Iliad Patroclus is referred to as ‘equal of Ares’ for a reason! He fought too, he didn’t just stick in his and Achilles’ tent and all that. So yeah, I have beef with that characterization and think we still could’ve gotten the beautiful story of their relationship even with Pat not being watered down to Achilles’ shadow.

I also have some beef with Achilles’ characterization and that’s just…I don’t like how Miller tried to justify (idk if that’s the right word here but I’ll go with that) everything Achilles did. And again this may go back to my bias from having read the Iliad and all that beforehand. Because technically all those characters are supposed to be morally grey. And I think that keeps it more interesting and compelling. So when you run behind a character trying to justify every little thing they do even if it doesn’t need to be or shouldn’t be then it just kinda…makes the character and story less interesting. Like and this is beef I have with all modern retellings of Greek mythology in some capacity because we are looking at these characters through the moral lenses of our time then clocking them into modern boxes based on our definitions of good, bad, neutral, etc. and personally I am a firm believer that the Iliad is an anti war story and all the characters in it kind of portray certain things that come with war. And to me Achilles’ character is the dangers of pride. Like he was mad that Briseis was taken from him so he withdrew from fighting and we all know what follows. So when Miller kinda runs behind him to justify things or unjustly vilify him (however you wanna view it) it kind of takes from that and I think it makes his character and his story much more interesting when you leave that morally grey/let’s not explain the reasoning for his actions kind of stuff. Again, that’s just me and my take on it.

And yes I also understand that tsoa is a YA story and again it’s about him and Patroclus and their relationship and all that but again I think we could’ve left some of that in and it still could’ve been good.

Now this is an opinion of mine that most people usually have beef with me over, and that is I hate the way Thetis, Deidamia, and Briseis are written. Hate it. And yes I’ll grant you Thetis’ characterization in tsoa makes the end (where she finally puts Pat’s name on the tomb) much more emotional and poignant, like I get that 100% but to me it seems like all the women were written to be just…in the way. And that kinda irks me a bit. Like he’s every mother wants best for their son but I fail to see where Thetis would reasonably do all she did like for a mother who was written to always want the best for her son and want him happy she sure did have a lot of unnecessary beef with Pat even when he was a child lmao. And the whole Skyros thing was to protect Achilles from getting pulled into the war but in tsoa it’s kind of also written as trying to get Achilles away from Pat which is weird and rubs me the wrong way. Like the Skyros thing is very interesting and is probably one of my favorite pre-Troy writings. Like I love it. I do. But tsoa also ignores the whole part where canonically (if you want to call it that) in some versions Achilles was ready to just reveal himself for who he was on Skyros. Like he was over it. He’d pretty much accepted what was going to happen and felt the whole thing unnecessary and weird and all that. And I think that could’ve made the story much more interesting.

I also hate the Deidamia situation. For various reasons and if you’re familiar with the original myth you’d know why. And again I recognize tsoa is a YA story and it’s about patchilles but still I have my beef with it. I hate who she’s just seen as annoying and rude and entitled and somebody that’s just in the way of our ‘main boys’. She’s actually quite a complex character herself and even in a few versions of the original myth she disguised herself as a man and follows Achilles to Troy! Or she’s the one who keeps him from revealing himself too soon! Like again we have someone that’s a good strong solid character that’s just…watered down.

And last but most certainly not least there’s Briseis. Another character that’s seen as in the way. Now this is gonna piss a lot of people ofc most likely but technically Briseis and Achilles did love each other. He even goes so far as to consider (if not call her) his wife. And I feel like that chemistry only adds to the whole decision of his to withdraw from the war when Agamemnon takes her. Otherwise in tsoa it doesn’t make much sense. Like in tsoa he had almost nothing to do with her at all. And I know it’s a pride thing but in tsoa he really didn’t care much about her and only did because Pat liked her. And (if I remember correctly it’s been a bit since I’ve read it) he kind of saw her as something of a threat. Something that was getting between him and Pat. So like…why was he mad that she was taken? Let alone mad enough to pull back from the war? It makes no real sense to me.

And I think she does just kinda miss the complexity and multifacetedness of all these characters. Like a lot of them to me seem very one dimensional and that makes for a boring story to me. Like I have never in my life read a flatter Odysseus and that’s saying something because Odysseus is an inherently complex and interesting character. Same with Agamemnon. Same with literally everyone. Like yes Pat is a wonderful healer and we know that from the Iliad but he is just as capable of taking life as he is saving it and he did both.

That’s really all I have for the beef I have with tsoa or at least the issues that I have a huge problem with (problem enough to talk about it) but otherwise I do think it’s a cute story. Y’know it’s an easy read that I can get through in like 2-3 days. I love seeing them growing up in Phthia and on Pelion like I love all the Pelion scenes and seeing their relationship go from one of friendship to a romantic one. Like I love that. I do. But it could definitely use some doctoring up in my opinion. So would I say that I hate it? Not entirely. But like when I recommend it to anyone I recommend they read the Iliad afterwards. So make of that what you will.

And again if you love it and have no issues with it, that’s great. I have no issue with that. Again we all interpret and see things differently and I’m not gonna bash anyone for enjoying it. Cause again it’s a cute story. And it’s tragic and all that. Like it still has that part down but how can you have patchilles without tragedy? Y’know? But I do just hope somewhere down the line comes maybe a better version of something like tsoa. Granted it would probably have to be for but if an older or more mature audience but still. Like I think it can be done and done well.

So, yeah. Sorry for my little tangent but I hope this answered your question and again I did say I have a complicated answer. Also tsoa and Hades are the only ‘modern retellings’ (if we wanna call Hades a modern retelling idk but like y’all know what I mean but as much as I love Hades I do have my beef with it as well but again I’m looking at it from the perspective of a Hellenic polytheist and somebody who has always been very into Greek mythology so I am definitely biased) that I am familiar with like I have read Circe or Percy Jackson or Lore Olympus or anything like that so if you wanna know my feelings on those I wouldn’t be able to give a good answer because I’m not familiar with those.

Thanks for the ask!

[itonje]

i accidentally unfollowed you trying to send this ask... thats the anti anti song of achilles agenda trying to hijack me. anyway i dont know anything about greek stuff and ive never read song of achilles but i love drama, whats wrong with it?

HI also this has happened thrice with my mutuals once with claudio and once with ramon everyone unfollows me whilst trying to send asks anyways uhh i think the song of achilles is a poor iliad adaptation that kind of makes the characters either really milquetoast or really caricaturized beyond belief (the one character i think they did...relatively less awful with briseis just because for ONCE. for ONCE an adaptation didnt make her in love with achilles and actually leaned into her relationship with patroclus more which i really like as in the iliad the one time she speaks its not even about achilles lol. but she still only rlly exists to augment the achilles and patroclus relationship and also she dies in a really awful way which i HATE). like if a character is not made like wildly evil (agamemnon, thetis, neoptolemus and the latter i find funny cause hes just as bad as his dad is in the iliad and iliadic related content) theyre declawed to all HELL

and thetis being evil makes me so mad when she has a good relationship with achilles, maybe one of the most important relationships with achilles in the iliad, his best loved one other than patroclus, and its implied she cares for patroclus as well as shes the one to preserve his body and keep it from rotting but in here shes just. the homophobe mom who only exists to keep achilles and patroclus apart bc she hates patroclus which is SO stupid because it goes against one of her biggest character traits which is ‘she loves achilles so much and would do anything for him’ as well as so many of the women in this story only being a wedge between achilles and patroclus’ relationship (like deidamia) which is so misogynist and pisses me off SO much because theres so much more you could do with that! like i understand making the gods more distant and abstract and cold to humanity but there are canonically cruel ass gods in the iliad and thetis is not one of them!!! 

and going back to my declawed comment objectively the worst characterization here is patroclus. in the iliad patroclus is known to be very friendly and likeable among the greeks, he weeps when he hears of them being beaten by the trojans and one of his epithets is even ‘amicable’, as well as briseis saying he was the sweetest to her when she became a slave (because yes she was a slave she literally was a slave and no one acknowledges that because god forbid achilles and his men could be the the BAD guys here). 

 but hes not just nice lol! hes known to be a fantastic fighter and when he dons the armor of achilles and goes to fight the trojans he has the highest kill count of any iliad character! he tries to mount the walls of troy because he wants to destroy shit so bad he may be nice to the greeks but hes also an incredibly formidable and violent fighter (and he killed a guy at the age of 12 by the way hes just wild i love my crazy boyfriend soooo much) and tsoa just makes him. incompetent lol? so that achilles can like rescue him all the time which is so silly...lean into the warrior boyfriends dynamic you want to have warrior boyfriends who are crazy and kill people in your books SOOO bad 

also the song of achilles doesnt even lean into the kind aspect of him yeah hes nice to briseis and the women but where are his friendships w the greek men lol? what about him and menelaus?? theyre really good friends in the iliad, menelaus getting upset over patroclus’ death is heartbreaking too. 

but patroclus isnt an active character, everything that happens to him is just that-it happens to him. he makes NO active choices at all the only thing he does is ask achilles to let him fight for the greeks. hes just a witness to EVERYTHING he does NOTHING of genuine importance or active choice and i know that it was written like this so it could make achilles seem more important, (as well as leaning into the ‘oh we have no choice when it comes to how the gods play us’ but i would argue in the iliad whilst a theme of us being victims to our grander fate is there, the iliad also says that even though we cant control our ultimate futures we CAN control the choices we have in front of us, achilles giving back hectors body wont bring back pat or make him. not die eventually but he still does, and its still important. maybe the MOST important choice he makes. but thats... another thing lol) it is tsoa after all, but patroclus is also a main fucking character lol? and as important as achilles is to patroclus’ character so is patroclus’ to achilles! 

also even achilles seems like hes strung around first by his mother and then by the war and god it all seems like this is all here to absolve achilles of responsibility, to absolve him of wrong doing when in the iliad achilles does many many many things wrong as well as just being a bit of. an emotional hotcase (lol), and thats what makes him interesting! but no hes just whitewashed so that we dont have to feel bad for liking him and we wont find patroclus morally dubious for just going along with all of achilles’ shit out of love (when patroclus, like i said above, also does bad shit cause thats just how these characters are...most of the greeks do awful wretched shit in the iliad lol and they still are heroes with compelling characters cause like. moral ambiguity baybee) 

anyways this is all to say as an iliad adaptation it sucks. as a gay love story though. its fine lol? again. not my fav dynamic for these two but. this book isnt meant for people who are like hardcore achilles kinnies or whatever the fuck or have been reading and fixating on greek myth since they were baby like me lol. i know there are lgbt kids who read percy jackson or whatever or are vaguely familiar with greek myth who are going to read this book and see themselves in it and be happy and content with the rep and thats wonderful. i recognize this book isnt really supposed to be for readers like me who are hardasses about adaptation and its okay for people to enjoy it as less of a greek myth interpretation and as the romance it actually is. the writing is very beautiful and yes it inspired some (positive) emotions out of me regardless. 

however if youre looking for gay greek myth content that actually has pretty interesting and compelling characters, with various heartbreaking stories and fascinating themes about divinity, fate, humanity, and love well. just read the iliad. 

[itonje]

Hi! I noticed you said you didn't like TSoA, and honestly, I gotta agree. I generally like retellings, but even if you ignore the Iliad, the whole Deidamia thing was still weird and Patroclus really does deserve more justice than just being the "uwu soft boi" for Achilles. I'm personally not a fan of those types of dynamics in general and it would've been much more interesting to see their relationship a little closer to Homer's depiction of it: equals in every way.

And don't even get me started on Circe! I liked it at first, but seeing the Telegony be a part of it really ruined it for me, among other things.

yeah, i've said before that the worst problem with tsoa even if you divorce it from the adaptational issues (which i tend to do in this case because it would piss me off too bad if it didn't) there still is all the misogyny in regards to deidamia and thetis and....urgh.

also yeah i feel like the way patroclus was presented here really did do him a disservice like...i feel his death is more stronger if you don't consider him just a tack on to achilles, because the pain menelaus and the rest of the greeks feel when he dies is just as palpable and miserable as achilles' emotions (i say this being menelaus' no. 3 fan but i digress i digress) and i think if you really wanted to go with the kind hearted gentle patroclus approach which i think itself can be a little out of character if you write it the wrong way i think it would have been a much better idea to actually...write him as being a good friend to the greeks? we got a little bit of that but not as much as i would have liked for someone who's epithet is literally 'amicable' but etc etc. his relationship with briseis in the book was...good i guess iliad adaptation wise i feel that relationship isn't given much attention as it should have i just wish there was more nuance (ie, more NEGATIVE nuance) to their relationship and her relationship to achilles where the book was willing to call out and interact with his unchoice behavior instead of...washing it away

ALSO YEAH I AGREE THAT THE EQUAL DYANAMIC WHERE PATROCLUS IS JUST AS VIOLENT AND MARTIALLY SKILLED AS ACHILLES IS SO SO GOOD I DON'T CARE FOR THE CHANGING OF THAT AT ALL...but maybe i'm just a sucker for the 'warrior boyfriends' trope. is it obvious alkfskljskldjslk

and speaking of circe...oh circe. i have a great affection for it-it's better than tsoa in my opinion like in the structuring of the story and prose but i read it first so i may be biased. i think it was a very strong book until the very last part but oh my god. i feel like the female characters are kind of done dirtier in this one which should be ridiculous since a female character is in the lead position but like...scylla pasiphae perse medea athena oh my god i feel like all of them showed up to either be people for circe to be jealous over or completely awful to her. the only one who wasn't ariadne, was murdered for legitimately no reason?? the version of the myth where artemis kills her is rare, i have no idea why the author went with that (well. it was probably to tie into the theme of humanity and mortality but STILL) i thought at least by the end of the story the nymphs on circe's island would become friendly with her and we'd see a bond or something but no! the only woman who really escapes this is penelope, and their relationship, with penelope becoming fond of her and even picking up witchcraft from her is wonderful, but it sucks that it's the only one we really get to see explored between circe and another woman. speaking of which...

you're so right about the telegony turn being...weird. i think the plot described in the telegony could be..interesting (even though i personally don't take it as happening in the way i think about the trojan war + aftermath in my mind- just let odysessus and penelope be happy wahhh) and in telegonus' youth up until penelope and telemachus staying at circe's place it seemed alright, a bit new but alright until...oh my god what the hell was that romance plot with telemachus and circe...WITH HINTS TO THE ROMANCE EVEN WHEN HER SON WITH TELEMACHUS' FATHER WAS LITERALLY STILL KICKING AROUND???? i KNOW that's what happens in the plot of the telegony but the book didn't make penelope and telegonus get together?? why'd you have to do this??? not to be on my Agenda but i honest to god think that circe had to get together with ANYONE at the end of the book it should have been penelope. i think them going from their intense first meeting to being lovers or whatnot would have been very interesting to see but...i digress. she gets with her stepson. sure

i liked the ending where circe chose to become mortal, and i feel the entire book was leading up to that and the complexity of humanity as opposed to divinity and i like those themes a lot, i liked what it was trying to say and how it said it a lot, i just really was not a fan of the telemachus thing i had to slog through at the end and in general the last third of the book was a bit..strange because i feel like the ‘flow’ of the book slowed to a halt for us to keep up with telegonus' upbringing and athena's threats which itself was a bit. tedious at times. it was a good book, and i'll probably reread it at some point again which i probably won't with the song of achilles, but there were parts that were just not choice to me