#2012 humor didn't really agree with me

[sugarpasteltmnt]

When I was reading your fic, when the guys were checking the cams, I kept thinking that void would disappear and then they would see themselves run in and then check the cams where void would be right behind them watching it with them 😭😭

It never happened though.. IT WAS AMAZING STILL THOUGHHHHHHHH

hehehehe that WOULD have been hilarious hijinks for sure 🤣🤣🤣 but don't u worry. there are other silly moments planned lol

[salemoleander]

I think what you osserved about Cleo and Lizzie is a result of many factors.

Gender is of course one and a major one at that but it cannot be the only one as both Pearl and Gem have much more fandom characterization. Pearls characterisation especially can be attribuited almost entirely to Double Life.

There is also the factor there are a lot less females then males in the mcyt scene and that has always been a problem. But this means that there will always be way more discussion over man because there are so much more.

We should also consider that Lizzie did have a lot of characterisation back in the Empires s1 days that has been swept under the rug as she became inactive for long periods of time, she had a characterisation but this characterisation didn't even apply to the life series because she was never in it like the others, she missed 3rd life, Double life and Limited life which definitely didn't do her any favours. Mumbos characterization on the other hand still existed because he was much more active and when he was in hiatus his fellow Hermits kept reminding us about him... But Lizzie kinda dips for a while and then comes back and is never really mentioned.

Cleo always had the problem of being simplified as either chaotic arsonist, doting mother figure or talented artigian with dark humor... It's been since the 2020 that I have seen people discussing about her characterisation being basically cut down to one of these 3 personality instead of actually giving her actual personality. This was because newbies at characterization back in season 6 usually put either her or Stress as the nurturing mom friend in fanfiction who then other newbies took as inspiration and it kinda stuck around in a loop.

In a way one would need to analyze this problem at the olden days of minecraft content but then we would be here for days.

Putting most of my response under a cut because it got LONG.

To start, I will point out that "this is the result of many factors" and "in a way you'd need to analyze the origins of this, but we don't have time for that" are extremely common & toothless reasons to derail talking about misogyny (or any other -ism).

I do not think you are intentionally replicating that, but anytime an immediate response is "well it's not really ____-ism, and it's so complicated we could never hope to unpack it," that maybe isn't a useful addition to the discussion.

"[Gender] cannot be the only [factor] as both Pearl and Gem have much more fandom characterization"

I agree that gender is not the only factor, but I think going "well SOME women aren't as affected by misogyny so clearly it can't just be misogyny" is inaccurate. Also, if you look at Pearl and Gem's characterization - Gem is pigeonholed to a very particular type of cutesy fighting-princess role, akin to many YA protagonists of late.

Pearl does have more complex characterization from specifically Double Life, but the majority of analysis & attention only started going to Pearl after she won. As DL was airing, much more attention was paid to Desert Duo Redux and Team Rancher and Impdubs etc. I also think the fandom has taken to holding up Pearl as a token and going 'but look, we can write women! Look how many emotions she has. She's sad and likes murder and dogs."

There is also the factor there are a lot less females then males in the mcyt scene and that has always been a problem. But this means that there will always be way more discussion over man because there are so much more.

I agree, it has been a problem forever (I've been watching MCYT since 2012. I watched Cleo & then False join HC. Believe Me, I Know.) But you'll notice my critique wasn't [All Life Series Dudes] are talked about more than [The Much Smaller Number of Life Series Women]. My critique in my post was 'if Lizzie's death happened to a man I would see more posts about that other hypothetical person" - comparing 1 person to 1 person.

We should also consider that Lizzie did have a lot of characterisation back in the Empires s1 days that has been swept under the rug as she became inactive for long periods of time, she had a characterisation but this characterisation didn't even apply to the life series because she was never in it like the others, she missed 3rd life, Double life and Limited life which definitely didn't do her any favours. Mumbos characterization on the other hand still existed because he was much more active and when he was in hiatus his fellow Hermits kept reminding us about him… But Lizzie kinda dips for a while and then comes back and is never really mentioned.

So this paragraph is definitely where you lost me. Your point seems to be 'Lizzie had characterization in S1 of Empires, and we're forced to borrow it because she's so inactive since then, there's nothing to pull from'. Allow me to share a screenshot of her series playlists here.

Let's leave aside the question of why people would pull from Empires S1 characterization when Last Life happened in the middle of it, and would evidently be a more logical place to pull from for Life Series characterization.

She had a whole Afterlife series, and she wasn't inactive after that! She had only 6 fewer episodes in S2 of Empires than in S1. It is patently ridiculous to claim that Lizzie is just so inactive and absent her Empires S1 characterization is necessary to fall back on, when Mumbo has better characterization despite vanishing for an entire calendar year to go biking. That is sexism.

Cleo always had the problem of being simplified as either chaotic arsonist, doting mother figure or talented artigian with dark humor… It's been since the 2020 that I have seen people discussing about her characterisation being basically cut down to one of these 3 personality instead of actually giving her actual personality. This was because newbies at characterization back in season 6 usually put either her or Stress as the nurturing mom friend in fanfiction who then other newbies took as inspiration and it kinda stuck around in a loop.

I'm glad you agree it's a problem! I can definitely see how that problem originated, but I've seen new fandom members for the Life Series - who don't watch HC or read HC fic- duplicate the same problems. I think at some point it's less a fandom-specific issue than a replication of the social division of women into Virgin, Whore, Bitch, or Mother categories, with no ability to imagine women complexly outside of those boxes or continuums.

This fandom seems to think moving the women in and out of the 'Bitch' box is the same as complex characterization*, and we've all just kind of gone 'okay' because the other option is nothing about any women at all. But we can and must do better, because I have to believe we're capable of writing and paying fandom attention to women as people.

*This is where DL Pearl generally falls to me, and why I am dubious of claims that she's well characterized. I think much of the fandom equates cruelty or sadness with good writing/interesting characters. But she's still fundamentally defined by the questions "How nice or mean are you? Are you in a relationship or alone?"

[cking398]

Appendix 3. THE REVELATIONS OF THE PYRAMIDS producer and my link to the Christ Angles of GOD

In the mid 2010s after discovering the Christ Angle and my link to it I contacted over 100 journalists and other people I thought would be interested in this finding. The West has turned its back on God, Atheism is the God people have accepted, I guess. But as Richard Dawkins would have you believe, atheists are all rational human beings, and in that case I would respond, then why would they mind discussing the Christ Angle and the implications behind it. Their creed, I believe, is science/rationality, so they should be capable of looking at information with a critical eye and tell me I am wrong. The unwillingness to even consider or write about this extraordinary coincidence/occurrence confirms to me the importance and the real power it holds over not only me, but you too.

The only man who was kind enough to answer my question was Mr. Pouillard (He calls himself Pooyard in the credits of the film, but the man behind the production company that made the film is Mr Pouillard. Poo yard, they have a weird sense of humor these French, I think you will agree) producer of the most famous documentaries on the Pyramids “The Revelations of the Pyramids” with over 12 million views on youtube, I asked him a very specific question. Knowing that his knowledge of the Pyramids probably far exceeded my own, I was curious to know why he had not included a few minutes in his video for a discussion of the Christ Angle, which he would have had to have known about: This is a copy of our discussion: FR (see ENG below) Me

I really liked your movie "The Revelations of the Pyramids".

Well done ... I watched it in 2012 really opened my eyes to a lot of things.

I was wondering why you didn't include information about the christ / god angle in the movie. See the link below.

I look forward to hearing from you.

cordially

Chris

Christopher Holmes King (29-11-73 Neuilly)

Mr Pouillard replied:

B WEAVERS OF THE OLD WORLD (his production company)

Because I think there is a mistake about what christ is

What if it was a vibrational state?

Any level of consciousness or energy you prefer? Isn't it said that Christ is in each of us?

According to this same way of looking at things, which is not a truth but a proposition, then the antichrist would be too

So basically, he made no illusions that the Christ Angle was there but again he fails to address the question. Why did he not put it in the documentary? And he then goes on about how Christ and the Antichrist are inside all of us. How does that answer whether or not the Christ Angle is significant? It's just cryptic nonsense.

[officialinuyasha]

- OUR PLACE -

- THE ONLY ONES IN IT -

[Quote directly from the series]

I connected with the series on an above and beyond level. I feel as though many others have also. We can all agree that the struggles and discrimination in the series shows the toxicity within some people. Being trans myself I could see this the same way as being half demon. Throughout our race, gender or sexual identity. We all had to go through the struggles of being an outcast. Build our strength and not care what other people thought

Amongst our travels we've came across the few that became incredibly in-tune with their spirit just as we have. Transforming ourselves into who we really are. I want to name off a couple of people who I've felt very close with even without ever knowing them. Like a family. These people are amazing. The bravery and tragedies that come from becoming ourselves. Big goals to overcome. Language and names are UNIVERSAL. Appreciate and respect everyone's cultures in a positive light. If you don't then go your own way! Remember the clothes that we wear are COSTUMES. We are all BORN naked.

I am Inu-Yasha. Yes legally. Online known as TheHanyouInuYasha and OfficialInuYasha. "The Real Life Inu-Yasha." Through Inu-Yasha I was in-tune as myself. It is my identity. The struggles of being an outcast and not caring what others thought as we grew. To fight and overcome. I've strived to connect to many fans and create a safe environment for us all. TO MAKE A PLACE FOR OURSELVES.

DENNIS AVNER - STALKING CAT - "CATMAN" REST IN PEACE 2012

Dennis Avner the CATMAN. Transformed himself into what he always had longed to be in his life to truly express himself. Remember bullying is NOT a joke. You can seriously fuel someone's attempts into suicide through their depression. Please respect what makes them happy the same way that what makes YOU happy. DENNIS AVNER -- He only wanted to be accepted with his nature of the Tiger. Many thought well of his greatness. But the ones that didn't threatened his life and tore his sanity. It breaks me to know he killed himself.

ERIK SPRAGUE - THE LIZARD MAN

Amazing performer and became addicted to the idea of becoming a lizard! He has inspired much strength into others into body art and expressing themselves the way Dennis did. Very happy to know the two did get to meet one another. I hope one day to meet Erik myself to sit down and have a talk about his transformation.

EVA MEDUSA - THE DRAGON LADY

Transwoman Eva Medusa had a big childhood event with rattlesnakes. Felt like family to them and ever since was drawn into becoming more scale and less human. Very happy her brother completely supports her transition as woman and Dragon Lady. She feels at home in her new scales as it's meant to be.

JULIAN JAYE - THE REAL LIFE TRUNKS FROM DRAGON BALL Z

Long time DBZ Fan Julian Jaye BECAME a real life anime character. He has always felt in tune with Trunks. Doing the impossible and always making it possible as a true super Saiyan. We are one in the same!

ROBERT FRANZESE - REAL LIFE PETER GRIFFIN

Through comedy and skit. Robert throws on the glasses and Family Guy humor. Many people told him he looked like Peter Griffin which turned things into the better for Robert. Struggling with his own self confidence about his body. He continues to be Peter past his hard life outside the character. He's working hard not only on his performance but for his own health, and to make other people smile and laugh!

... AND MANY MORE ...

How has the InuYasha series helped you in your life?

[kiefbowl]

eh fine I'll talk about it.

Suvudu was a website/blog from Random House that generate additional content for "genre fans" - fantasy, sci-fi, comic books...etc.

In 2010 Suvudu did a humorous "cage match" series pitting characters against each other in a who-would-win fight, with users voting. They also explicitly asked writers of these character to write in with their thoughts, to generate more content for this (and, as far as I'm aware, this is for an adult audience). Here is Suvudu's "match" against Jaime Lannister and Hermione Granger, in which Suvudu jokes about their stats (not GRRM), predicts Hermione would win (with users agreeing), and then also GRRM's response (which was requested to add more fun and content), which is obviously going to be evocative of ASOIAF's violence and politicking, etc. You can click the "click here" to read it in full. He also wrote like 3 or 4 other Jaime Lannister match up responses including Jaime Lannister vs. Cthulu.

Additionally, GRRM doesn't really have beef with JK Rowling, sorry to tell you. In 2001 (literally 9 years earlier than the cage match), Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire won a Hugo award, the same year that ASOIAF: Storm of Swords was also up for the same award. The Hugo is considered a very prestigious award among fantasy/sci-fi writers, but JK Rowling didn't even show up to receive it. The rumor mill is she a) never really cared about it and b) is a bit prickly about HP being considered "fantasy" (which is an L for her tbh let's be real). It was also rumored that GRRM was, like, slightly annoyed she didn't even show up.

The "Eat your heart out, Rowling" comment is from a "published" letter written for the approval of a fansite from 2005. Here you go. It's just goofy fan service shit lol. If you were alive in this era, you'll remember the fan-hosted fan sites were everywhere and creators gave their fans a bone every once in awhile by writing a letter, or showing up for a Q&A etc. The internet was far more home-spun than you can imagine if you first got on the internet even 10 years ago. 2005 by the way is the year Half-Blood Prince and A Feast for Crows was published. So, we're talking about the height of Harry Potter mania, as in "eat your heart out" comment is probably more alluding to the zeitgeist than the Hugo (but clearly alluding to both). I'm sure 20-something fan bros thought it was a mad dunk for their spit and duct-tape website but GRRM probably didn't think much of it. Or maybe he's a little salty in 2005, but he certainly wasn't raving about it.

Otherwise, here's the only other thing he has said about JK Rowling:

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire brushed away the Hugo Award in which your Storm of Swords was also a nominee. What do you thing about J.K. Rowling and her saga? "I wish I have beaten her, what can I say! I would have liked to win that award and I don't think Rowling cares much about it. And she didn't send anyone to accept the award, which is certainly annoying. But she has done a great stuff for fantasy and many of my readers are people who started with Harry Potter; they've grown up and she got them to reading, she got them to fantasy. J.K. Rowling has grown up an entirely generation of children into the field and for that I applaud her."

That was in 2012, you can read that interview here. For context, HBO's Game of Thrones premiered Spring of 2011, so he is suddenly a house-hold name. He was not really before then, not to the extent he is now.

Now, am I writing this all up to go ham for GRRM? Nah. I think generally speaking, facts are just important. I mean, full disclosure, and I've never been secretive about this, I'm a big fan of ASOIAF. Of course, if you say you're a fan of something, people think you're an obsessive weirdo who can't hear a critical thought about anything you love; not me, though. I love telling you what's shitty about ASOIAF. I love being critical. And I hate HBO's Game of Thrones, that shit sucked!!!

But I'm also writing this because we are currently in a moment of time where people are being straight up liars about JKR, calling her a nazi, misconstruing the most innocuous shit she's ever said to basically, long game, deplatform feminism as a whole. And they are sloppy, stupid, juvenile, and bizarre about it, but more annoying it's working. They're going to take what ever "evidence" they can find to "prove" that actually, retroactively, everyone and all their favs and all the smart people were always right about Harry Potter all along and cool people always rabidly hated Harry Potter and JK Rowling to prove a bigger point that is just hilariously, demonstrably false about her and her books. And some of you, who have clearly read nothing GRRM ever wrote (fair) and also hate HBO's shows (also fair)...just believe it with no sources or fact checking?

tl:dr GRRM does not have a decades long hatred of JKR and HP, and the people who want you to believe he does have obvious ulterior motives that includes not giving a shit about being accurate or factual.

girl you're gonna call us gullible but not even tell us what we're wrong about?

vague blogging sustains me :)

[ms-demeanor]

This is a fair criticism and I was misremembering the comic as ending with like a face pinch 'well you should have thought of that before being so adorable' rather than 'well you should have thought of that before being so hot' - a different kind of objectification. Thank you for clarifying. And I agree, whether or not Moen considers herself trans is immaterial to the impact of the comic.

But I want to point something out:

Long paragraph aside, I think it sucks to write in a character complaining about being objectified and then respond to that character with "I wouldn't objectify you if you weren't so hot". Like, we understand that this is a shitty thing to say? And it doesn't stop being shitty just because the target is a trans man? Please?

It is a shitty thing to say, and it is the exact same joke as the end of the lesbian comic: Erika is lusting after someone who is not receptive to her attention and who thinks she's gross for stating things this way.

Honestly I think that a lot of criticism of her early stuff is overlooking that the joke is often "Erika is gross and unpleasant" and sometimes the joke is "Erika is incredibly vulgar," which I think is largely a symptom of when these comics were made - the pre-2010 internet was rife with gross-out humor and jokes about pushing boundaries to make people uncomfortable. It was the era of goatse and 'tits or gtfo.'

"Erika is kind of shitty" was the punchline in a lot of these comics.

I don't think that she was writing herself to seem like a reasonable person with a reasonable argument of "it's okay for me to objectify you because you're super hot," or "catcalling is okay when it's a queer person doing the catcalling," I think she was writing herself as an obnoxious, inconsiderate horndog, just like she wrote herself as the inconsiderate roommate who shit on the floor and didn't want to clean it up.

I do think that this comic is transphobic and I do understand why it would be upsetting to trans men (and so does Erika - she's had an apology included with the comic since 2012). I think that Erika has shown examples of transphobic thinking in the past but I also think she's updated her thinking and has worked hard at improving her understanding of transness and trans issues, which is why it's a little frustrating for a 14-year-old comic with a 11-year-old apology on it to be brought up as an example of why she is transphobic and shouldn't be read *now.*

(I am aware that that is not what you are doing, you are clarifying the content of the comic because I mischaracterized it in my initial post and you are explaining and why people feel conflicted about it)

One of the issues with the use of DAR as examples of Moen being problematic is that DAR is not OJST. Oh Joy Sex Toy is an advice comic that is very literal and gives specific information about toys/kinks/norms to people. OJST is an informative comic, meant to be taken as fact, and it is mostly what people know Erika for. DAR is a diary comic that is mostly about farts. If this comic or the ogling lesbians comic had been part of OJST rather than DAR, I think I'd be much more concerned that those were literal representations of her opinions rather than her playing (sometimes clumsily and in a way that people found upsetting) with thoughts that she had kicking around in her head. These comics often get framed as literal the way the tips for safe anal comic is supposed to be literal and I just really don't think that's how they were intended to be read or how they come across in the context of DAR.

And I'll say again: if you're bothered by this you absolutely don't have to read Moen's work or interact with it, but I don't think it's good evidence of Moen being transphobic and it is definitely bad evidence that people who interact with her content are supporting transphobia. Even granting that this comic is more objectifying than I remembered I still think that using three comics (two of which have attached apologies) out of thousands of pages to dismiss Moen's output as transphobic and lesbophobic and a reason that LGBTQ+ supporters should stop supporting her (there's an old Affinity Mag writeup that compares Moen to Catherine McKinnon and Arielle Scarella) is just a really disingenuous and uncharitable look at her work.

God. I'm not directing this at you, this is not a criticism of you, your response is correct and fair and considerate. The whole thing just makes me a little crazy because Moen is kinda cringey and has a long enough internet history that she's made some visible fuckups and she's getting put on a level with an anti-sex work crusader and a woman who thinks transness is a disorder and trans people are groomers. The idea that some people think Moen's work is on par with McKinnon's anti-porn work or is as transphobic as Arielle Scarella's channel is exhausting.

i really liked OJST in the mid-2010s but i didn’t stop reading cause of the cuck comic - wasn’t there also a comic erika moen wrote about (functionally) harassing lesbians with her now-husband?

In the mid 2010s closet-keys criticized one of Erika Moen's early diary comics and described Erika Moen as "Reassuring a cishet partner that it’s totally okay to use hate speech towards wlw at Pride" and condoning the harassment and fetishization of lesbians because of a 2007 comic that she had made as part of a webcomic she had written about gender and her interactions with her queerness.

The hate speech in question is the partner asking "are you sure you want to hold my hand with all these dykes around?" while they are pretty clearly at a Dyke Day event during pride, and the reassurance that 'it's totally okay to use hate speech toward wlw' is Erika responding "sweetie, I'm proud to be with you."

The comic is still up with a disclaimer that it was written at a different time, and I know that's probably not going to fly with a lot of people but if you were a bi woman in the early to mid 2000s it was pretty common to use statements like "lol yeah i'm into women my boyfriend is fine with it as long as I take pictures" to diffuse the biphobia from straight people AND to say shit like "I'm not a party bi, I actually love pussy, thanks" to diffuse the biphobia from queer people. (if you were a bi guy in the early to mid 2000s i'm sorry and I'm sorry now because we got LUG but that mostly went away and you *still* have to deal with the "gay in waiting" bullshit).

That comic ends with Erika and her partner looking at a woman and saying "I'd totally do her" while the woman thinks "pigs" and if you think that means that they literally sat on the street and vocally commented about lesbians passing by them or that they condone harassing lesbians (in, I cannot stress this enough, a diary comic written by someone in their early twenties who is realizing they are occasionally interested in some men some of the time after identifying as a lesbian their whole life), then I'm gonna go ahead and recommend signing up for some variety or other of literary analysis class. Do we think that Erika is seriously implying that she is going to make her boyfriend gay if she fucks him in this comic from a year later?

If this comic bothers you and you see it as a straight-passing couple giving the go-ahead to harass lesbians, you do you, I'm not saying you have to read the comic or enjoy Erika Moen.

I am saying it's a bit of a stretch, though, and certainly the least charitable explanation possible, and that we should probably give people some space to say awkward things about their sexuality and to make missteps when discussing it in their early twenties and not call them lesbophobic fifteen years after the fact for a college comic.

Moen also gets called transphobic because she has described trans men as adorable/cute in a way that could be read as patronizing in one comic and because she made a comic about wearing a packer for fun and for sexual gratification with her cis male partner as a cis woman.

Appropriately, all of these things feel very "late twenty teens tumblr callout post."

If it bugs you, you don't have to read the comics but I've talked about Moen before and I've gotten the anons in my inbox calling me lesbophobic for recommending her comic when in 2007 she made a comic about catcalling lesbians and condoning street harassment.

Which is frustrating because Erika Moen writes a comic about sex toys that has incredible body and gender diversity and is interested in making sure that people of all sexualities are having safe, enjoyable sex and talking openly about it. This is Rebecca Sugar condones war crimes level discourse over a creator who makes a genuinely good comic and gets dismissed as cringe by people who hate open discussions of sex and gets dismissed as a bigot (in ways that I think are incredibly unfair given the vast majority of her work) among people who *claim* to love open discussions of sex but who *actually* love witch hunts.