#102 edith grove

[omg-hellgirl]

The three* versions of why Mick Jagger slept with Pat Andrews, the mother of one of Brian Jones' children

*UPDATED: 04/03/2024.

In Mick: The Wild Life and Mad Genius of Jagger by Christopher P. Andersen, this occasion is nothing more than a frankly unimaginative but evil plan by Mick to "break" the connection between Keith and Brian that arose when they started living together.

The entire narrative is built based on a timeline in which the three already live together in 102 Edith Grove. Describing that, while Mick was studying and had classes all day, Keith and Brian were alone in the apartment, rehearsing. And when it got cold, Keith and Brian would lie down together to stay warm.

In short, the book says that Brian and Keith were very close, and Mick wanted to break them up (it is also said that Mick realized that Brian was determined to replace him with the singer P. P. Pond). Mick’s attitudes were: He seduced Pat Andrews, the mother of Brian’s son Julian, and Brian himself.

In Keith Richards' biography, Life, there is a short excerpt about the incident that completely changes the narrative of Christopher P. Andersen's book because it differs in essentials: They didn't live in 102 Edith Grove yet. According to Keith:

Mick had come back drunk one night to visit Brian, found he wasn’t there and screwed his old lady. This caused a seismic tremble, upset Brian very badly and resulted in Pat leaving him. Brian also got thrown out of his flat. Mick felt a little responsible, so he found a flat in a dismal bungalow in Beckenham, in a suburban street, and we all went to live there. It was there I went in 1962 when I left home.

In Keith's version of the incident, the three did not live together yet, and Brian was only kicked from the place he lived with Pat after she slept with Mick. Therefore, this invalidates Andersen's entire story about this.

I'm not sure how Keith knew Mick was drunk, did Mick tell him that? Questionable, to say the least.

As far as I've read, over the two beds that were at 102 Edith Grove, Keith said:

There was no fixed rotation between the two beds and a couple of mattresses. And it didn’t really matter much; usually all three of us would wake up on that floor, where we had the enormous radiogram that Brian had brought with him, a great ’50s warm-up number.

So far, there are no explicit descriptions of sharing the bed to keep warm. Although he admits that "To go through that winter of ’62 was rough. It was a cold winter."

Whether this is something he deliberately left out or if this was also an incorrect story, we can only speculate.

The third version of the story, from A. E. Hotchner's 1990 book, Blown Away: The Rolling Stones and the Death of the Sixties, collaborates with something of Christopher P. Andersen's version.

Hotchner interviewed many people, including Ian Stewart, who was part of the band's original lineup in the 60s and continued working with the Stones until his death. The following excerpt is Ian Stewart's version.

Even though he had moved to Edith Grove, Brian continued to see her and sometimes spent the night with her. Well, one afternoon Jagger came to the flat looking for Brian who wasn’t there. So Mick hung around, eventually got Pat to get into bed with him and knocked her off. Brian found out about it, of course, and from then on it was a thorn in his relationship with Mick — which, I guess, is what Mick intended. There were plenty of ready and willing girls Mick knew from the Ealing Club and the Marquee, so I figure the only reason he balled Pat, who was certainly not very attractive, was to get at Brian.

According to Ian Stewart, Mick, Brian, and Keith already lived together in Edith Grove, and Brian occasionally visited Pat, who lived alone with their son, Julian. This differs from Keith's report that they moved together after the incident between Mick and Pat. There is also no mention of Mick being drunk.

Obviously, the interview was done before Ian Stewart's death in 1985.

"The last time I saw lan Stewart, a few weeks before he died, I asked him [...]"

I'll update this post if I come across other versions.

In the end, everyone chooses what to believe, but as I am bringing excerpts from both books, I feel a bit of responsibility for pointing out the differences between them and letting everyone draw their own conclusions. That doesn't mean I'll make a post for every difference between the books, tho.

[vintage-every-day]

The Rollig Stones outside 102 Edith Grove, Chelsea in 1963. (Jones, Jagger and Richards shared a flat there).

[sbrown82]

Is there any info on Mick, Keith, and Brian living together? I wonder what was it like.

Yes, 102 Edith Grove was the one-bedroom flat in Chelsea where Mick, Keith, and Brian all lived together beginning in 1962. At that time, Mick was a student at the London School of Economics, Keith just got out of art college and was looking for work, and Brian was playing blues around London trying to start a band, so they all stayed at Mick’s tiny, dilapidated off-campus living space. They were really poor at the time and often picked up bottles for extra money to eat and pay the rent there. The guys also often slept fully dressed because there was never heat. It was pretty much a sh*thole, but it was a roof over their heads:

Mick Jagger’s former girlfriend, Cleo Sylvestre, also said he always tried to get her to sleep over, but she’d be like, “nah!” 🤣 The place was just NASTY!:

[waugh-bao]

@charlesandkeef Andrew also put this little gem in his own book like 10 years before:

“That day I bid farewell to that revolting, fried-up, lino pisshole, 102 Edith Grove. On my few "rise and shine" missions to the lair I don't recall Brian Jones ever being at home. I later found out he was busy procreating in the suburbs. But I do remember Charlie Watts and Shirley Ann Shepherd-soon-to-be-Watts sharing each other in a single bed; thankfully some things remain the same. Charlie and Shirley Watts still share the same bed. One of life's achievements.”

A. Dude, what?!

B. Is this the origin of Shirley’s ‘being a couple in love makes you sexy to everybody’ theory?

“I was standing next to Charlie and his kit [the first time we met]. I had no idea what to talk about, so I offered to help him schlep his kit. He smiled and declined my offer; he already knew better and that my skills lay elsewhere. He had mesmerised me at the Station Hotel…

Our last sessions together were 'We Love You' and ‘Dandelion'. As happened on many a Stones tune going in, there was no pre-arranged ending - better to see if the meat and potatoes were in place before applying the veg. The ending was a mélange of Nicky Hopkins and Brian Jones on keyboards and woodwind, Keith and Mick on hallowed vocals and Charlie leading the fray with improvised fills. At the time I thought the fills were just for me.”-Andrew Loog Oldham, 2022

[rollingstonesdata]

TODAY IN ROLLING STONES’ HISTORY: August 1

TODAY IN ROLLING STONES’ HISTORY: August 1

Early August, 1959: Brian arrives in London and then he starts performing in local jazz bands. August 1962: Mick and Brian move into an apartment on 102 Edith Grove in the Chelsea area, London. Keith joins them shortly afterwards. August 1, 1964: Pier Ballroom, Hastings, England August 1, 1965: Palladium, London, England (2 shows) August 1, 1974: Release of HERBIE MANN’s LP ‘Reggae’, with…

[bdscuatui]

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Seaman, 120.000 đô la. • 338 Washington Ave., Christian Ferullo Chandap Chand; Rama Chand, $ 117.500. • 206 Wood 4.0.3 Drive, Margaret A. Glor; Timothy R. Vinh dự cho Duke Capital Holdings LLC, 100.000 đô la. • 210 Homewood Ave., Jeffrey E. Williams đến Cynthia A. Noelk; Heather A. Noelk, 90.000 đô la. • 750 Đại lộ Parker, Michael J. Notz; Susan M. Notz cho James K. Roberts, 40.000 đô la. WALES • 6680 Đường Maple Hill, Cecilia A. Pilc; James J. Pilc đến Brandon Daly; Jamie D. Daly, $ 298,969. TÂY SENECA • 47 Jaycee Lane, Marrano / marc Equity Corporation đến Elizabeth A. Kobialka; Przemyslaw S. Kobialka, $ 376,633. • Đất trống Bắc Mỹ Drive, Liên doanh West Seneca đến Kamax LLC, $ 304.000. • 81 Circle End Drive, Gary W. Kluck; David W. Neilson đến Sean P. Nowadly; Jenny K. Pfeiffer-Nowadly, $ 265.000. • 330 Forest Drive, Michelle A. Arteaga; Patricia A. Arteaga; Robert Arteaga; Lisa C. Wojciechowski đến Gary W. Kluck; David W. Neilson, $ 245.000. • 43 Leaside Drive, Judith Flak Mahoney; Đánh dấu E. Mahoney; Mahoney Family Trust 121218 Tr gửi đến Kristin Betti; Timothy Betti, 230.000 đô la. • 14 Marilyn Drive, Michael R. Koeppel đến Lawrence Sall; Marie Sall, $ 182.500. • 27 Race St., Roger L. Chudzik đến Kimberly A. Kuhn, $ 166.100. • 190 Brookside Drive, Dennis R. Heidt; Jan J. Heidt đến Katie J. Mccourt, 165.000 đô la. • 92 Cambridge Ave., David P. Lipchot; Steven M. Lipinc Hot; Leaann Wilczak tới Edward J. Majchrowicz, 150.000 đô la. • 197 Barnsdale Ave., Marilyn E. Mccormick đến Juliana M. Armstrong, 139.000 đô la. • 4411 Clinton St., John H. Hackney; John Henry Hackney cho Steven E. Gummo, 25.000 đô la. [ad_2] Nguồn

[omg-hellgirl]

Another version about Dick Hattrell, the man who, according to Keith Richards, "Brian almost killed."

Previously, I made a post about Dick Hattrell based on what Keith wrote in his autobiography.

Reading Philip Norman's book, Mick Jagger, I came across an incredibly different version.

Keith's autobiography is from 2010, and Philip's book is from 2012. There are excerpts from Keith's biography in Philip's book, so he definitely read and used them as a source in other passages. Still, he told a different story about that occasion. 

In Philip Norman's book, Dick is called Richard, but he doesn't clarify if Dick is just a nickname. Keith knew the guy as Dick.

Dick, or Richard, is still Brian's doormat who "did everything Brian told him and believed everything he said."

The story diverges when, instead of being kicked out of 102 Edith Grove for charging the money he spent on them, Dick crawls into Brian's bed during the London cold.

Hattrell crept into Brian’s bed to snatch a little warmth and rest. Brian awoke him, brandishing two amplifer leads and threatening to electrocute him. The credulous Hattrell fled into the snow wearing only underpants. Not until he started to turn blue from exposure would the others let him back inside.

In this version, Brian threatened to electrocute Richard (Dick) Hattrell. Also, according to this, he was eventually allowed to return.

Although Keith says in his book that he doesn't know what happened to Hattrell after he was thrown out of the apartment naked, Philip Norman claims that Richard was even considered to replace Dick Taylor when he left the band after winning a place at the Royal College of Art.

There was some idea that Richard Hattrell might take over on bass guitar, but a course of lessons with their Ealing Club colleague Jack Bruce showed Hattrell to be totally unmusical. He returned to Tewkesbury and, worn down by his life with the Stones (a syndrome to be oft-repeated in the future) suffered a burst appendix and almost died.

It is not clear whether the intention to have Hattrell in the band occurred before or after Brian threatened to electrocute him. It's vaguely implied by the timeline that this happened after, but I have no idea.

[omg-hellgirl]

Dick Hattrell, the man who, according to Keith Richards, "Brian almost killed."

All information is taken from Keith Richards' autobiography. These are his words, but it is up to the reader to decide whether to believe them or not. As he himself said, "This is my life. Believe it or not, I haven't forgotten any of it."

While living at 102 Edith Grove, Mick, Keith, and Brian were experiencing financial difficulties and were unable to even pay for heating.

It was 1962, and Keith makes it clear that "to go through that winter of ’62 was rough. It was a cold winter."

Keith says that during that winter, Brian had the idea of bringing up Dick Hattrell, Brian’s old school friend from Tewkesbury who had his Territorial Army bonus.

He says that "Brian was merciless towards Dick," but that he and Mick were broke, and they couldn't complain. 

Brian was merciless towards Dick. We didn’t mind because we were getting the fallout. This is when nobody’s got two pennies to rub to-fucking-gether.

Keith then narrated — in his own words— Brian's cruelties to the man.

And Brian almost killed the man. He would force him to walk behind him and pay for everything. Cruel, cruel, cruel. He would make him stand outside while we ate and he paid. Even Mick and I were shocked, and we were pretty cold-blooded. Sometimes he’d let him in for dessert. There was a streak of real cruelty in Brian.

When Dick tried to charge Brian for the money he had spent on the three of them, Brian, laughing, locked him out of their apartment, practically naked in the British winter. In a snowstorm.

Keith boldly admits that he himself laughed too and that he didn't understand how Dick let himself be put in that position.

Once Brian left the poor sod outside with no clothes on, and it’s snowing and he’s begging and Brian’s laughing, and I’m not going to go to the window, I’m laughing too much. How could a guy let himself get into that position? Brian stole all his clothes and then sent him outside in his underpants. In a snowstorm.

Keith highlights several times how cold-blooded and cruel Brian was and that what happened with Dick was horrible. He doesn't mention Mick's reactions to the scene, but his own, laughing and just watching.

“What do you mean I owe you twenty-three pounds? Fuck off.” He’s just paid for us all evening; we’ve been feasting like kings. Terrible really, terrible. I said, “Brian, that’s just cold-blooded, man.” Brian, a cold-blooded, vicious motherfucker. Only short and blond with it. I wonder what happened to Hattrell.

It is unknown whether Dick Hattrell survived.

"If he survived that, he could survive anything."

— Keith Richards, Life.

[omg-hellgirl]

can you talk more about the power struggle between Mick and Brian? Especially when that dynamic shifted? And what do you think Keith's role in this was (do you agree with Marianne abt whoever allied with Keith had the power in the band?)

*UPDATE 03/16/2024: Read until the end for updates on my reading.*

Well, it's important to highlight that as some like to point out, it may all be just "gossip", so you choose what to believe. I'm merely reposting what I DID read. I'm not taking the book I use as a reference as a bible and I'm not saying that EVERYTHING happened exactly that way, so if anyone has a complaint, it's NOT my fault (I didn't write the damn book) and I don't care.

I plan to buy Keith Richards' autobiography to read and then consolidate some of my opinions and discover things that differ from stories told out there. Until then, most of what I know and think comes from others.

According to Christopher P Andersen's book, Mick: The Wild Life and Mad Genius of Jagger, Mick and Brian (who at the time was known as Elmo Lewis) met at a Jazz club in Ealing. He and Keith were impressed by Brian's ability to play guitar and went to talk to him as soon as the show ended.

According to the book, within weeks what would come to be known as The Rolling Stones was formed and that the choice of the name was a deliberate choice by Brian and that initially the other members of the band didn't like the name.

By then, this is set in early 1962 and in addition to Brian, Mick and Keith, two musicians called Dick Taylor and Ian Stewart were also in the band. Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts would come later, respectively.

Despite gathering a respectable amount of audience, Mick was not committed to the band and was still studying at the London School of Economics. He moved into a two-bedroom apartment at 102 Edith Grove with Keith and Brian (the stories about that apartment, honestly, I was shocked).

It is said that they did not have money to run the electric heater and that all three of them slept together in a double bed to keep warm. For certain types of behavior (not necessarily at bedtime), Mick was called King's road queen by Keith and Brian.

Somehow the narrative begins to explain how Mick began to feel jealous of Brian for stealing Keith from him. While Mick was studying and had classes all day, Keith and Brian were alone in the apartment, rehearsing. When it got cold, Keith and Brian would lie down together to stay warm.

Mick also received an allowance from his parents and had money to eat at restaurants, which he did alone, while Brian and Keith had to "crash neighborhood parties in search of food or break into neighbors’ apartments so they could rifle through dresser drawers looking for‘spare change."

Basically, Brian and Keith were very close and Mick supposedly wanted to break them up (it is also said that Mick realized that Brian was determined to replace him with the singer P. P. Pond). Mick’s attitudes were: Seduced Pat Andrews, the mother of Brian’s son Julian, and Brian himself.

Now, here it gets confusing because it is said that instead of messing with Brian emotionally, it was Mick who was messed with. Although it is not detailed how. It was Anita Pallenberg who spoke about this. She is mentioned as "it was from Brian that Pallenberg learned the details of his relationship with Mick."

“Brian did break up a lot of things by actually going to bed with Mick,” Pallenberg said. “And I think Mick always resented him for having fallen for it. In later years, there have always been rumors about Mick being gay, but then it was as if Brian violated Mick’s privacy by revealing his weak side.”

There is nothing more said about this. It is also said that "While Mick commanded the spotlight, Brian worked tirelessly behind the scenes to land the Stones a record deal. He enlisted the help of his friend Glyn Johns, a recording engineer at IBC Studio, in cutting a five-song demo. When seven record companies rejected it outright, no one was more devastated than the mercurial Mr. Jones."

ALSO

"While Peter Jones listened politely, each repeatedly interrupted the other, making it painfully evident that Mick and Brian were locked in a fierce battle for the title of team leader."

This Peter Jones was a journalist linked to a record company, and that was the impression he had of them. The 1964 interview I captioned shows Brian interrupting Mick as he speaks, it's interesting. They definitely competed.

According to the book, Brian tried to get rid of Mick again when he formed (on behalf of the group, which showed that Brian was at the forefront of things as a leader) a partnership with Andrew Oldham.

Brian Jones handled negotiations for the Stones, and Brian’s first suggestion was that Mick, his archrival in the group, be booted out. Oldham’s business partner, Eric Easton, agreed. “This Jagger fellow,” Easton said, “just can’t sing.” Oldham’s response was swift and unequivocal. “You are both,” he told Brian and Easton, “completely insane.”

The beginning of the end between Keith and Brian and the beginning of the power shift that would be followed by Brian's heavy drug use and lack of commitment to rehearsals and shows was when Brian moved out of the apartment he shared with Keith and Mick to live with his girlfriend Linda Lawrence.

Oldham, acknowledged by Keith to be both “a fantastic hustler” and “an incredible bullshitter,” rushed in to fill the power vacuum created by Brian’s abrupt exit.

Explaining it in detail would make it even longer but basically Brian started using a lot of drugs and missing rehearsals and even concert dates; It got to the point where it was a miracle that he showed up and they no longer counted on Brian's presence at rehearsals.

Not to mention that some shows were sold as “Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones". The one who the fans thought was the leader must have had a direct impact on the dynamics within the group.

Say what you want about Marianne but I think she has a place to speak. I believe she meant that Keith, as the third founder (Bill and Charlie came later and probably didn't have as much say in the decisions at the beginning), the third wheel, had decisive power. If Mick and Brian were at odds, whoever Keith supported had the advantage. So yes, I see logic in the reasoning.

Also, Brian and Keith's relationship naturally began to deteriorate along with Brian and Anita's relationship and Keith's infatuation with the woman. At one point, it also brought him closer to Mick.

I hope this has clarified something for you, XOXO

*If there is something different in Life, Keith's autobiography, which I haven't read yet, I am inclined to believe his direct words more.

UPDATE 03/16/2024: I started reading Keith's autobiography, and there are some disagreements with the information in Christopher P. Andersen's book. I advise, after reading this, to read this.