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the-conversation-pod · 9 months ago

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Dispatch! (The Ossan's Love Episode)

And we're back!

NiNi and Ben bring our friend @twig-tea to the show to talk about the entire Ossan's Love series. We'll talk about the way this franchise evolves over time, the difficulties of comedy, what it means to love older queer men, and how this show tackles the complexities of family and masculinity.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction and Some Context 00:06:25 - Ossan’s Love History and Summary 00:13:42 - The Characters 00:28:23 - Love or Dead and In The Sky 00:39:00 - Ossan’s Love Returns 00:45:33 - Final Thoughts and Ratings

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Introduction and Some Context

Ben

And we're back!

This week, we are covering all of Ossan's Love, from 2016 through 2024. We have brought on a special guest for this special episode as we're going to talk about the longest-running BL project. We have brought on our friend @twig-tea.

Twig

Hello.

NiNi

Hi, Twig. Welcome to the show.

Twig

Thank you so much for having me.

NiNi

New friend of the pod. Super excited to have you here. Twig is what we delightfully referred to as a ‘fandom old.’ I'm very excited to be having this conversation with two fandom olds in here, Twig and Ben, because, dear listeners, I have not had the time to watch Ossan's Love, so this is gonna be interesting. Ben and Twig are gonna school me.

Twig

We'll do our best.

Ben

This is going to be an interesting episode because we're going to be talking about a project that was somewhat overlooked by fandom, myself included, until the last couple of months. And I'm a little bit salty about it, and so I wanted to bring on somebody who has watched all of this in real time, and I thought that their perspective would be helpful.

Twig, you are new to our listeners. Why don't you tell them a little bit about yourself in fandom and your history with queer cinema and BL?

Twig

I actually started on the GL side, which is a little bit different than I think a lot of folks in the BL fandom. I started with getting into Sailor Moon and got involved with a group of women who started Yuricon. The first Yuricon was held in Newark, NJ, in 2003 and I was the secretary.

From there, there just wasn't enough GL content, and so I got into BL, too. I was really into Japanese manga, was part of a few scanlation groups, got oversaturated, stepped away, came back in 2016 to be shocked at the fact that a whole lot of the stuff that I used to watch was now made into live action.

The YouTube algorithm in late 2016—early 2017—fed me Lovesick and I sort of went, “Hello. What's this?” Then watched Make it Right and was hooked on Thai BL. Tried to backfill as much as I could, so I watched Gray Rainbow, and Diary of Tootsies, and all this stuff that nobody talks about, really, anymore.

One of the things about fandom at that time was that the way you found stuff was digging and a prayer, and random people making random lists, and it was very hard to tell how good those lists were. And so I managed that by watching everything and making my own opinions. And that is why I watched Ossan’s Love when it aired, or as soon as I could get my hands on it.

NiNi

So we're talking like real, real old school. We're talking about “Oh God, maybe some fansubber might help us out here.”

Twig

Fuckin’, like, Internet relay chat.

NiNi

IRC was my job back in the day.

Twig

Yes!

NiNi

I was talking about other things—not BL, but I was there.

Ben

Twig has sketchy as shit DVDs that were handed to her by a fan that have not great rip but really solid subs.

Twig

Bought in a mall parking lot with Mandarin subtitles that we used to watch with my friends who spoke Mandarin so they could translate for us in real time. It was hard. We used to walk uphill both ways back in the day.

Ben

A lot of folks who have been in this for a long time—we joked that we watched everything because we had to. You have done a better job of keeping track of what you've watched.

Twig

I wish I'd done better. I only really started tracking things in 2020. I did try to backfill the years before that, but I only really captured all of the major series. There was so many shorts, and things like that, I just couldn't do. But my spreadsheet has about 600 things on it, 606 as of today.

Ben

Incredible.

NiNi

I have been watching media overall—like seriously watching media—for…30 years…and I have not watched 606 of anything.

Ben

Nah, I believe her. It adds up. I engage with close to 100 BLs every year for the last 2-3 years.

NiNi

Clearly I'm not in these streets with y'all.

[Twig laughs]

Ben

I'm so glad Twig has showed up because it has given me permission to not watch so much.

NiNi

I bow down to you guys, because there was a point in time where, trying to keep up with week-to-week, I was watching something like eight shows at a time and I literally felt like my head was on fire. So, I don't know how you guys do it.

Ben

Practice. [laughs]

NiNi

We talked about this on the show, how last year I watched 50 things, maybe, for the whole year, and I felt like I was losing my mind. I usually watch like 15.

Ben

50 is good. Like, that's a really healthy number.

Twig

That is. That's pretty solid.

NiNi

As in five-zero?

Ben

Yeah, no, that's great!

NiNi

A year?!

Ben

Yeah! And we made a whole fucking show out of it! It’s good!

NiNi

Deep breaths. Okay, let's continue. Let's go on. [laughs]

00:06:25 - Ossan’s Love History and Summary

NiNi

Let's get into Ossan's Love. Ben, do the honors, tell us what is Ossan's Love about?

Ben

Actually, I want to do this one a little bit differently.

NiNi, you have not engaged with Ossan's Love. The most you have is the fandom vibe on it from the periphery. What is your impression of Ossan's Love prior to all of us posting a lot about the new show?

NiNi

When you say periphery, I think you're being incredibly generous. There was one where they’re flight attendants maybe, or something to do with an airline. I am aware of that. And then there was something with a boss. There was a thing about a shower. There's some dirty jokes that go over my head because they're referential to this show. But in terms of my awareness of Ossan’s Love, it's honestly not much.

Did I get any of those things correct by the way?

Twig

You totally did.

Ben

You did. I almost shouted “Dispatch” when you mentioned the airport. [Twig and Ben laugh]

All right. So, I will give what I knew of Ossan's Love prior to earnestly engaging with it: Ossan's Love is a workplace-set drama in which a guy who works in an office is being pursued by a colleague of the same age as him and his boss—who is like 20-plus-odd years older than him. At the time when I didn't watch it, the fandom vibe on it was that it was fairly offensive, particularly around the old guy character. And, when it was hard to find this show, I was like, “Whatever, I'm not going to work that hard for a show that people seem really put off by.” I have had to make sure that I check if I am riding an old fandom opinion from prior to 2019 when it comes to older work, because those opinions are usually not informed by the lens that I use. And so I decided to engage with Ossan's Love properly.

Before we start describing what the show is specifically, Twig, what do you remember about your experience watching the show in real time and the popular opinions about it?

Twig

So, the first thing is real time had really different meanings back then because we didn't have international distribution. It was sort of when things were fan subbed and when you could find them and knew they existed. So, I actually didn't get to watch the short until years after the original. So my first outing with Ossan’s Love was season one.

At the time, it felt like if you liked it, you should be quiet about it, because the opinion was so negative that you would be shouted down if you said anything positive about it. So I just sort of stayed in my corner of enjoyment and tried not to think too hard about it.

Ben

That is unfortunately how I remember it being. It was not popular to say positive things about Ossan’s Love at the time. Even the fans of Ossan's Love seemed super ambivalent about the second season, which was an alternative universe.

Twig

Yeah. When Season 2 aired it was an even wider swing. The people who really loved Season 1 seemed to hate Season 2. I actually like Season 2 better than Season 1, so I was even more like, [laughs] “Okay, I guess I don't know what I'm talking about, guys, so I'm just gonna stay over here and let you all have your opinions over there.”

Ben

So our quick timeline: we have Ossan’s Love the TV special in 2016. We have Ossan’s Love the TV show airing during spring of 2018. They released the movie Ossan’s Love: Love or Dead —that went into theaters on August 23rd of 2019—and then a few months later, in November, they released Ossan’s Love: In The Sky. It's my understanding that Ossan’s Love Returns was originally supposed to air in, like, 2020-2021. They've returned to that project this year in 2024.

NiNi

I know they're going to be doing a Thai version of this coming up and they also have the Hong Kong version?

Twig

That's right. Yep. There was a Hong Kong version in I think 2021 or 2022.

NiNi

I love when they take a property and they remake it across cultures over and over again. I'm always intrigued to see how they turn out.

Ben

Have you watched the Hong Kong version, Twig?

Twig

I peeked at it. It's really true to season one in a lot of ways. I haven't actually watched it all the way through because I was like, “If I want to rewatch season one, I'll just rewatch season one.”

Ben

I feel like I have to watch it at some point.

All right, so let's get into Ossan’s Love properly now: Ossan’s Love is about a 33 year old man named Haruta who is a slob. He is a hot mess of a man. He cannot take care of himself. He lives with his mom, and she does all the housework. She decides to bail on him and go run off with the hot new man she's with. And so he asks his colleague, whose name is Maki, to move in with him to help him out because Maki is very good at house chores.

He learns accidentally that his boss, whose name is Kurasawa Musashi, has had a crush on him for a long time and also simultaneously learns that Maki has been crushing on him for a long time. Hijinks ensue as the two of them begin aggressively pursuing him, and he is not prepared for this sudden surge in gay activities.

Twig

One thing I add to your description, Ben, is it's a comedy.

Ben

So this is where things get a little bit complicated. Comedy is hard to do correctly, because a big part of comedy is playing with people's preconceptions of how an interaction should go. A lot of folks struggle with Japanese comedy because they're just not aware of the expectations for how an interaction should go, and so the humor is not landing on them, and this can happen even in your own culture. Like, if you showed a teenager today Airplane, many of the jokes in that movie would make no sense to them because they're missing some of the cultural context. Some of that exists with peoples engagement with Ossan's Love, I think.

Twig

I think that's right.

00:13:42 - The Characters

Ben

The big part about Ossan's Love that impresses me is how the show gets better each time they come back. There are things that are kind of yikes in the short that are tweaked out in the first show. There are things that they retooled Haruta and Kurosawa over in the airport season. And then, in the most recent season, Ossan's Love Returns, they've shifted where the focus of their storytelling is after everything that's going on. So we are seeing the same characters, but they're dealing with much different dynamics.

So, Ossan's Love Returns was a completely acceptable point for a lot of people to jump on, and I almost just jumped on. But, I like to know how we got here. So I was like, “I must watch all of this first!” [laughs]

NiNi

I was about to say on what point were you ever gonna just jump on without going back into the before times? You, sir, are a historian and a completionist.

Ben

Of course. And so I went back and watched.

Twig, since you didn't have a lot of people to talk about Ossan's Love with at the time, how about you talk about your impressions of Haruta, Maki, and Kurosawa when you first engaged with it?

Twig

The thing that stuck with me is that, even in 2018, it felt a little more queer than a lot of the other stuff I was watching alongside it at the time. Haruta and Maki, and all of the characters, play into that in different ways. Haruta is an extremely frustrating character. I just wanted to reach through the screen and strangle him through most of season one, and I think that's partially intentional.

Haruta is set up as the literal straight man. He's there to be what your average straight guy reaction might be when confronted with gayness, and everyone around him literally slaps him and tells him he's being an idiot. Delightful, but it doesn't make the character himself very likable at first. The fact that he grows on you anyway, even while he's being so frustrating, speaks to the other strengths in his character: his kindness, and the way he values his coworkers. And I think the later seasons did a really good job of picking up the things that made Haruta such a great character, and enforcing that in the character writing itself to make him more likable overall.

I loved Kurosawa from jump. I think he's [laughs] incredible. He lives life on 11, and I think watching an older man step through some of the more standard romance tropes very clumsily but earnestly is incredibly charming.

Maki is the competent character. He's also a self-actualized gay man. He at no point questions his sexuality at all, has no crisis about it. He knows who he is and what he's attracted to. And that was also really refreshing for BL at the time.

NiNi

Describing the kind of character that Kurosawa is made me think of Ben describing characters like Shin from Minato's Laundromat. When you tend to see these younger characters who are full on gung-ho chasing after the ones that they like, people like that. But they don't like the boss because they don't think their character should be doing that.

Twig

When I was first telling Ben about my opinions about the show, I said one of the things I struggle with is whether Kurosawa is telling the joke or is the joke. I think the more I have watched and rewatched, especially in later seasons, they do a really good job of him being a funny character and we're not laughing at him. He's not the butt of the joke, he's just funny. The people who would be turned off by an old guy hitting on a younger guy no matter what were turned off by that character and the ones who were sympathetic to older men also having romance in their lives were turned off by the idea that it was a comedy.

Ben

The comedy in the way Kurosawa pursues Haruta is about the age gap, not the fact that he's an old man. It's that he's at a different stage of his life. He's not fumbling to figure out stuff, he knows what he wants and his time is limited, so he's pursuing it determinately and also because he's older, he's behaving in line with his generation.

Like, if you don't have friends who are more than 10 years older than you, sometimes you're going to get weirded out by their cultural stuff. Like right now, I'm reaching the age gap with some of the kids I tutor, and I had to deal with all the various iterations on rizz and I don’t like it.

[Twig and NiNi laugh]

I had an 8 year old call himself The Rizzler the other day and I almost pushed him down.

Twig

Oh no.

NiNi

Oh my God.

Ben

I understand the concern around Kurosawa. But that is not what I think the show is doing, and even if it accidentally does it, that is not the show’s intent. Haruta is dealing with the sudden shift in his relationships with men who are important to him. Maki was just like his friend and colleague, who he was low-key mooching off of to do housework for him, and he has to deal with the fact that the only reason Maki is willing to put up with him is because Maki likes him. With Kurosawa, a big part of their relationship is the fact that he respects and admires him so much. The relationship between them is very paternal in a lot of ways?

Twig

A mentorship.

Ben

Yeah, he sees Kurosawa as a respected mentor and Kurosawa respects Haruta as well as a valued member of his team. A big part of the show is them sorting out the way that affection complicates some of these relationships, and we as the audience have to struggle with why these men like this man. Haruta is fucking useless in the household. He may be good at his job, but he is horrible at house related stuff. And so the question is why would anyone want him?

And this is not rhetorical for the show. They really want you to grapple with this. The fact that Haruta is kind of repulsive as a romantic interest is something the show wants you to think about. You have to work to understand why so many people are into Haruta, and I think this gets better overtime.

Twig

They do a really good job with all of the women characters in this show, which was super rare for the time and still worth saying. His best friend Chizu also is terrible at housework, but she's a woman, and so she's struggling with the expectation that she get married and she keeps talking about how she needs to find somebody who does for her what Haruta’s men are willing to do for him. I just love putting those two characters side by side. And the silent question that's asked of the audience. That's like, why is this okay for Haruta, but not for Chizu.

Ben

It's not really subtle. As the show goes on, Maki won't really commit to Haruta because Haruta is ostensibly straight. Maki is hesitant about full committing because it's hard to be gay, like you got a lot to face as a gay person and he doesn't know that Haruta is going to stand up to all that. He's kind of a waffly type of dude. He's kind of a people pleaser who won't really stand up to anyone. This is kind of good for him as a salesperson. It's obvious why all their clients like Haruta. But it makes him kind of unreliable as a partner because you're not certain he's going to hold ground with you when the world is telling you that you shouldn't be together.

The first season ends on a really cool note, ‘cause Maki and Haruta break up and Haruta just falls apart. And Kurosawa moves in with him for a while to help take care of him. For Kurosawa, it's a romantic thing, but it very much feels like someone’s parent going to take care of their kid. Haruta recognized where he failed with Maki, and he starts trying to help out with house stuff a little bit. But it's not like he suddenly becomes like a great housekeeper. I really liked that choice, that he starts putting in an effort but he's still horrible at it.

Kurosawa ends up proposing to Haruta. Haruta has a hard time saying no to people, so he accepts. Also, he used a flash mob. It's hard to say no when someone flash mobs you.

NiNi

Pause. Pause for cause.

Twig

Michael Jackson-themed flash mob.

NiNi

Okay, not pausing. Unpausing. Go ahead.

Ben

Kurosawa is always at 11. He is an incredible character and like he and Haruta are going to get married and at the altar, Kurosawa is like. You need to go to him. You don't actually want to be here. And so Haruta runs to Maki and proposes to him at the end of the first season.

And then there's just an incredible supporting cast in the show. I don't think we have time to talk about all of them properly, but. Haruta’s friend Chizu’s older brother Teppei runs a little bar diner that they often hang out at. He's so funny, always giving them weird gross food combinations to try out. They’re’s Maro, who's a member of their team who did not know Haruta’s given name for the years they worked together, there's Maika, who's kind of a nosy busybody at their work. She's a great source of comedy, ends up with Teppei. There's Takegawa, who's the second at their office in the first season, who is revealed to be Maki’s ex later. And he is intense as hell and becomes a complicating factor in the budding relationship between Haruta and Maki because he challenges Haruta. He's like, why is he putting this much effort into you? You suck! I really love the Takegawa character because he is a hot mess.

Twig

He just is so pained at Maki falling for a straight man. Something that is deeply relatable for anybody in queer spaces. [NiNi laughs] Like we have all been that person. Like, what are you doing to yourself?

Ben

I want to nod to Choko real quick. In the first season, Kurosawa has a wife of 30 years. Her name is Choko. Once his feelings for Haruta become known to Haruta, he decides he's going to pursue them and he tells this to his wife and they get divorced. She is understandably upset about this whole situation. But what's so great about it is, the show allows her to have a journey of figuring out what her life is going to be now that this information is out there. Like, she was hurt and upset at first, but then decides to support Kurosawa because this is her partner of 30 years and she understands him, so she ends up eventually supporting what he's trying to do with Haruta. And she ends up developing her own relationship with Maro.

It's really cool in this show where there's this whole complicated thing about whether or not these three gay men are going to sort themselves out into various relationship configurations, they're also doing a pretty steep successful age gap romance between like a 30-something year old man and a woman approaching 60.

Twig

I love Choko's arc so much. It's the one thing that stayed with me the most. She is also allowed to be funny. She's silly and immature in the same ways that the male characters are. She's not perfect either. And I think that is super important that she's a complicated character.

I think it's really important that this show talks about the ways in which homophobia and being in the closet hurts everyone, not just gay people. I think this show does a good job of at least alluding to the fact that the hurt that's caused by people having to live lies makes waves in communities.

NiNi

I like when they put that on older characters, as well. There's so much to unpack when you're talking about a life lived in the closet, emerging from a life lived in the closet later on in life. What you're gonna do with that life and how you're gonna treat it. From what you guys are saying about Kurosawa, it’s like he just decided to take life by the balls once he came out of the closet, and that's always something that I enjoy seeing.

Ben

I guess, well, on some of the negatives. The humor is choppy in the first season. You do have to recalibrate as you're watching. It is very funny, but in ways that are unexpected. You will end up feeling a sense of revulsion in the show, particularly to season one Haruta. When I started going back to it, I had a difficult time with the first episode because I'm asking myself why would anyone want to fuck this man? [NiNi and Twig laugh] That is a real and valid reaction that you have to work with as you're watching the show. And so parts of it are a little bit difficult to watch in that regard.

And Kurosawa is a huge character. You have to take time to get to know him and understand him and understand where his behaviors are coming from. And if you're not willing to do that work, the show is super off putting.

Twig

It is loud. You do have to allow your comedy ear to calibrate to its shouting.

Ben

However, I will say that if you want to see romance in BL about older characters, Ossan’s Love is right there. The entire drama is about 30-somethings and much older dealing with life and love. There is no wistful stuff about “things were easier when we were kids” in this show at all. It is very much grounded in the perspective and dramas that people in their 30s and 40s and 50s are dealing with in life and romance.

Twig

I feel like the one other thing that I always feel the need to call out about the first season is Haruta, because of what his character is struggling with, is physically uncomfortable with displays of affection, and particularly with kissing, in the first season. And that can be off putting too, but he makes it clear verbally that he's not actually against physical affection, he's just familiar with it? It is one of the things that the show does better later on.

00:28:23 - Love or Dead and In The Sky

Ben

Let's talk about the movie! Ossan’s Love: Love or Dead.

Twig

[laughs] Every time I think about that title, it makes me laugh, ‘cause it's just so extra.

NiNi

I'm sorry, Love or Dead?

Ben

Mhmm.

Twig

Oh yeah.

Ben

The premise of this movie is at the end of season one, Haruta got an opportunity to go work in Shanghai for about six months, and the guys are going to be facing a separation for a bit. There's drama when Maki goes to pick up Haruta ‘cause he's found in a compromising position, and a big part of this is Maki still dealing with his anxiety around whether or not Haruta can be a partner to him. Maki gets selected to be part of this high-powered real estate team, and there's a bunch of drama that unfolds involving a partnership with a drug peddling organization and then we end on like an action note where they have to rescue Haruta from a burning building.

Twig

There are explosions.

Ben

Lots of explosions.

NiNi

This sounds… delightful. This sounds like exactly my kind of crack.

Ben

You should watch it sincerely.

Twig

It is delightful.

Ben

If you're not certain about Ossan’s Love, legit, watching Ossan’s Love: Love or Dead is not a terrible place to start. It's a two-hour outing that covers the basic ground of the franchise, has some really strong moments, and is super cracked out.

What's so fun in it is, we talk about the retooling of the characters. In season one, Maki and Kurosawa beef a lot over Haruta and legit get into physical brawls over it. This is a feature of the entire franchise. These men scrap on the regular. There's this great moment when they're trying to rescue Haruta from this building where Kurosawa's role as their mentor comes through and he reads Maki about how he's always holding back in the relationship. That's what I think works for me the most in this franchise, the collective love that everyone has for each other. It's true that Kurosawa is not going to succeed as a romantic rival to Maki in this story, but that doesn't mean that he's not important to everyone and everything going on. And I really, truly love that.

Twig

His mentorship relationship with Maki really starts to flourish in the movie, the moment where Maki’s hanging off of a ledge and Kurosawa is helping him physically back onto the ledge so he doesn’t fall into the flames, but also verbally telling him what he needs to do to save his relationship. This movie is not subtle with its metaphors. But it's such a good moment where we realize that Kurosawa plays that role for Maki, too, of a mentor, and that he's willing to do it for the relationship, even at the same time as being a love rival. And it sets up the new season really well.

Ben

The movie matters to the timeline of the series. The movie is not just some sort of one off moment that occurs. The events of the movie are built into the characters, and it was the beginning of them retooling how these characters function.

NiNi

This sounds like a very experimental type of series, just the way that they do different things each time. While they are refining their central characters and the central storylines, they're also experimenting with style and tone, and a number of other things it feels like?

Twig

I think that's really true. One of the things about the movie that's really fun is it's the first instance of sports in the series. We get Justice playing basketball with Haruta and working his feelings out through basketball.

Ben

JUSTICE!!! [Twig and Ben laugh]

Twig

Love and peace! And that becomes a huge part of the AU and also part of Ossan’s Love Returns that I think really adds to the experience. They try things out and then if it works, they pick it up and add and yes, and it, and then they pull out the things that didn't really work. I find that really interesting to watch happen.

NiNi

The concept of something being iterative like that in real time, it's not for everybody.

Ben

This series went on to do something super experimental where a couple of months after they released a continuation movie promising that these characters would get back together, they released an alternative universe season where only Haruta and Kurosawa were present from the original cast, and now we're at an airport dealing with a completely different set of characters and a slightly different dynamic.

It also gave Twig and I our favorite bit.

Twig

[laughs] Dispatch! 👍

Ben

Dispatch! 👍 Oh my God. It is so funny, every single time.

NiNi

Every time.

Ben

Every episode has at least two dispatch moments. [Twig laughs] It's so fucking funny.

Twig

Sometimes it's to end a conversation. Sometimes it's to greet somebody, sometimes it's to shut down a conversation, distract from someone saying something you don’t want them to say.

Ben

So in this particular season, Kurosawa is still a leader. He is the captain of a flight crew. Haruta is a new flight attendant who is joining this team. In this case, Kurosawa is not Haruta’s long-term mentor who has been harboring a crush on him. He develops his crush in real time. Haruta moves into company housing and there's a slightly older guy there who's got a crush on Haruta, but he won't say anything about it. And then there's the meanest twink who's ever existed in BL.

NiNi

I mean y'all just seem to be giving me multiple reasons to watch this show at this point, so.

Ben

So in the second season, there's far more complicated people in the Haruta stuff. There's Kaname who is the older mechanic who lives in the dorms, and he's got this huge crush on Haruta, but he'll never say anything about it. Naruse is causing fucking problems all the time, because every time he has relationship drama and people show up at their airport to fuck with him about it, he just starts kissing Haruta to make people go away. And then people throw drinks in Haruta’s face over it. Because Tanaka Kei is a master of physical comedy.

Twig

One of the staples of the series is what I call the Haruta reaction supercut, where they just have multiple cuts of Haruta’s face as it morphs into more and more absurd huh, no, whaaa faces. He does bend his body in ways that's like a cartoon falling over, it's pretty incredible.

NiNi

Ben knows that I love physical comedy.

Twig

Yoshida Kotaro has incredible physical comedy, too.

Ben

Like if you ever want to see an old man try and kill an aging twink [Twig laughs], this is the show for you.

I get why people who liked the first show bounced off of this, because the rest of the cast is gone. The supporting cast is a really strong part of the Ossan’s Love experience, but I really like the AU season because I think it allowed them to retool Haruta and Kurosawa. And retool the relationship between them to make it more about their mentorship. They're building that relationship in the AU season ‘cause they don't know each other.

Twig

The thing that I really like about the AU setup is because Haruta is coming into a new environment, we get to see him build his network of people around him over the course of the season. Showing us what's likable about Haruta because he has to charm all these people around him in order to get friends and build a community, is a really important piece of the puzzle that allowed me to get to like that character a lot more, because he was charming me at the same time.

Ben

We get a lot of great moments in the season. Kurosawa has been a pilot for 30 years and he decides to retire and everyone is sad about it. I'm sad about it, Twig is crying about it.

Twig

Mmhm.

Ben

He ends up inviting the three guys who we've mentioned out to hang out in the park with him. He has this sumo tournament with them where he's basically giving them the last bit of advice he's going to give them and it is, one of the most intensely emotional man moments I have had in this genre. I was losing it and I was crying. I was hollering and screaming, messaging Twig like, “Wake up, I need to talk about this right now, I don't care what you're doing. Get up.”

Truly, it is one of the best moments in TV about the relationships between men that I have ever experienced, and it is this hyper ridiculous sumo wrestling moment in a gay romance drama in the AU season that is technically not canon, and it was the moment from the series that lingers with me the most.

Twig

Even in the moment they're looking at each other like, is this happening? How is this happening? This isn't real. Nobody does this. Nobody calls each other to the side of the river with a note [laughs] to hold a wrestling competition in which we talk about our feelings.

Ben

But it works really well. I ended up really loving the way it allowed us to think about these two men and the relationship between them. We get to appreciate how important Kurosawa is to Haruta.

Twig

That sumo wrestling moment allows us to see Kurosawa's relationships with all of his subordinates. The way he's so firm and so gentle with Naruse, with like “soft landing,” meanwhile, throws Haruta out of the ring.

Ben

The way he talks to all of these men as specific to them, like his role as leader is strongest in the AU season. My primary concern for the Thai adaptation is who is playing Kurosawa, because this character is as important as the romantic leads.

Twig

I think it's more important.

Ben

I am with Twig. Who is going to match Yoshida Kotaro in Thailand? I need to know.

Twig

I'm eagerly awaiting that announcement.

NiNi

The answer is going to be Nu Surasak or Kob Songsit.

Ben

I really hope it's good.

00:39:00 - Ossan’s Love Returns

Ben

Ossan's Love Returns reunites the original cast after five years. Maki is returning from an extended stint in Singapore, and now he and Haruta are gonna start their cohabitating married life together. Maki is now part of the super team at headquarters, following up on the movie. Haruta is still on the streets with regular folk, ‘cause that's where he wants to be. Kurosawa has retired, I liked that follow up from the AU season. And now he's working as a housekeeper. Maki is working too much and Haruta is still bad at house, and so they hire a housekeeper, who ends up being Kurosawa [Twig laughs] who cannot hold back his feelings for Haruta and it becomes one of the ongoing dramas of the season.

One of the things I enjoyed in this season is… they explore how to integrate Kurosawa into their lives long term. Haruta is serious about Maki and committed to their romance. Kurosawa is also extremely important to him and he treats him like a father figure. They explicitly have Choko talk to Kurosawa about how a lot of the ways he feels [laugh] about Maki are a lot of the ways a mother-in-law might feel about their daughter-in-law with the way they beef with each other. And when we say they beef with each other, I mean, these two men are legit fighting in their kitchen, like Kurosawa hits Maki in the head repeatedly with a frying pan. Maki legit throws Kurosawa through a door at one point and knocks it off the hinges. These two men, when they scrap with each other, are fighting for real and I love it every time.

NiNi

It's just like you all conspired to come into this recording booth today and just be like, okay, so you say this and I'll say that and between us we're gonna get her to watch this, because she likes this kind of stuff.

Ben

I didn't really have to work that hard. We're just legit talking about what the show was doing. We get a really great season of Maki and Haruta settling into what their life is going to look like. There's some introduced new characters in the season that we all had very complicated feelings about who I think end up fitting fine by the end. Most of the original cast comes back and there's like a really great bit of exploring what all these characters settling into their relationships that they got into in the first season in this one.

So Haruta and Maki are now living together and figuring out what that is going to look like, who are they gonna be as a couple now that they're not doing long distance ‘cause they've basically been long distance between every outing. Which I think was a clever choice because it means that the characters’ relationship dynamic doesn't really move that much between outings.

Choko is now living with Maro and Maro’s mom, and Choko is struggling because she's older than Maro's mom. She can't just treat this woman like her mother-in-law. And Maro doesn't know how to help because he's caught between his wife, who's way older than him, and his mom, who's confused and a little bit uncertain about this whole dynamic.

Twig

I also love that that's not the only thing we see Choko having worked through in the time we've been apart from her. She opened an archery range after her divorce, and sort of reinvented herself with this new life that she's actually thriving in.

Ben

They get new neighbors who are a bunch of weirdos.

Twig

[laughs] They're so weird. They're so weird.

Ben

These two are revealed to be members of, like, a public security division that maybe doesn't actually exist. Izumi ends up becoming obsessed with Haruta because he's a doppelganger for his dead lover who was killed in the line of duty, who is very, very different from Haruta. It was fun to see Tanaka Kei play a very different type of character in those flashbacks. I don't know that it entirely landed for me over the course of the season, but by the finale, which was fantastic, I was okay with them.

Twig

A large part of the way they were written is that they were a mystery for a large part of it, too. It's hard to bond with a character that you know nothing about and is intentionally opaque.

Ben

Chizu is trying to make it as a single mom and this reinforces one of the big themes of the season, that family is all the people who are going to show up for you all the time. She relies on Teppei and Maika to help, and she feels guilty about this and they tell her straight up, like, don't feel guilty. We are a family. You should rely on us.

She had already made Haruta and Maki designated adults who can pick up her kid from the daycare. An important gay right of passage is your friend calling you and telling you I need you to go pick up my kid, and then you show up at said kindergarten to pick up a kid and they look at your ID and they go “oh you're allowed” and the kid runs to you and everybody goes, well, that makes sense. An important gay moment that everyone must experience.

Twig

One of the things that I love about this so much is that it picks up from a throw away line that Chizu says in the movie. She sort of brags that she's going to balance having a kid and her career. One of the things about the series is that it really feels like the people who are writing it love the whole series and are constantly thinking about how to call back in loving ways and how to pick up threads in loving ways. Something that she just sort of confidently stated she was going to do no problem in the movie becomes a whole plot in the following season.

Ben

There's a final arc in the season where Kurosawa has a health scare where we think he's going to die.

Twig

When we were talking about it, Ben, you said that it was an important moment for Maki and Haruta to confront the idea that Kurosawa won't always be around. And I was like, oh, that's why I don't like this part because I don't want to ever think about that. [Twig and Ben laugh]

Ben

The entire finale is this really great examination about the way this whole group of people are a family to each other.

Twig

It's not even just that it's happening, but they're explicit about it. They're having conversations about what is family? What are we to each other? How do we define our relationship? Where do those lines get drawn? And the answer is just sort of, yes.

Ben

There's an explicit line, like, what is Kurosawa to them? And then Maika comes over and hammers it home for the audience and is like, “There's no need to describe it. What matters is you all are going to be part of each other's lives forever.”

00:45:33 - Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

I don't think we talked about it as much. So, the first season is pretty light on kissing and intimacy between the male characters. Ossan's Love Returns is not! There's so much married intimacy between Haruta and Maki.

Twig

The casual intimacy in Ossan's Love Returns is constant, and it just feels very lived in? They're just constantly touching each other and having small kisses and teasing each other.

Ben

We got more of that today in the unexpected special spin-offs we're getting. I was like “ohh, I thought we were done. Oh, it's another cute little 20-minute office episode ending on the two of them making out next to the copier.” Love it.

NiNi

This is called Forbidden Gout Temps Nouveau.

Twig

Mhmm.

NiNi

I have so many questions, but I feel like I should not ask those questions right now.

Ben

My general attitude is you don't need to watch all of Ossan's Love to enjoy parts of Ossan's Love. I think if you are interested in gay domesticity and complex family units, you can just watch Ossan's Love Returns right away.

NiNi

I'm watching it all. Eventually. I don't know when. There's a lot going on in the IRL space right now, but I'm gonna be watching the whole thing.

Twig

I feel like I should say something about the original short. It has a lot of the things that people found the hardest to swallow about season one. A lot of the stuff that they did originally they fixed or did better as they moved through. I would say the short is the thing to skip, of all of it, unless you're really curious about the journey of this franchise.

NiNi

I'm really fascinated by the idea of this as a reserve process of working through and refining the show in kind of a real time. I would like to see the whole thing just for that purpose. I'm a writer, so the way that this feels like multiple drafts, and you getting to actually see the multiple drafts to see why they might have decided to make a particular change in the next draft, or why they would have gone for an overhaul, or what would they have tweaked around the edges. I like the idea of looking at that.

Twig

It is not just the writing that they iterate. We haven't talked a lot about the visual effects that this show uses, but it has its own style. One of my favorites: it uses the bokeh effect, where the lighting in the background is blurred and sometimes takes shapes. It starts from the very beginning. You'll see the lights behind Kurosawa make little hearts while he's confessing to Haruta and Haruta’s has little like stop signs. [Ben laughs] And then they get bigger and bigger with that where Kurosawa’s hearts have little like heartbreak. They have– there’s little, like, zigzags in the hearts behind him when he gets rejected. Sometimes he'll be crying tear lights. That’s just one of the things that they play with in the different versions.

Ben

Naruse having that whole tantrum trying to get someone's attention for help? Then having that super cut of them screaming and then smash cutting to them just sitting at the table. There's like the courtroom audio stinger that dominates the first season that I fucking love [mimics the sound] thing that happens over the course of the whole season. It's so, so dramatic, and I'm like, “Is Judge Mathis gonna walk out? What is happening?”

Twig

Oh, and they do this thing where they hard cut to a visual metaphor like water leaking out of a water bottle or a pot boiling to represent the character’s emotions. There's so many visual moments. It's not just written well and acted well. It's also represented visually really well, and seeing how they experiment with that and how that changes. Like, the weird bobble heads we got in the AU season. I'm still not over those. I'm glad those didn't return.

Ben

It is not a perfect show. This is not a “Everybody was wrong. They should have watched all of this. Grab your pitchfork!” situation. This is not an easy show to love. If you can find your way to loving the show, I think it has been one of the most rewarding watches I've had in the genre since What Did You Eat Yesterday?

Japanese BL is different from Thai BL. More experimental and weirder things are gonna happen over time if the series has a lot of leg in it, and Ossan's Love is one of those that has so much leg in it. Like the second season just ended, and I'd be okay if we don't see them again, but, I really hope we do.

Twig

Me too.

NiNi

All right, so let's get into ratings. I mean, is this the kind of thing that you rate? Instead of rating, let's rank. If you had to rank the different parts of the Ossan's Love franchise, how would you rank them? In terms of, for you, most enjoyable to probably the least enjoyable?

Ben

Well, the least enjoyable is the original special. It's the most rough and the hardest to swallow. I think the best season is the current one?

Twig

Yeah. I mean, for me, it's basically chronological order, I think. I struggle between the film and the AU ‘cause I like them for different reasons, and I struggled with them for different reasons. But I think Naruse tips it over there so that it stays ahead.

Ben

[Ben and Twig laugh] I love that mean twink!

Twig

He's just so great.

Ben

I don't know that I'd want to…rank them that way. I think each outing adds something to it. It's really a question of, do you like seeing people try to get together for the first time, or do you really like seeing people be together? For me, I'm very partial to Ossan's Love Returns because it's about gay life drama, which is what I’ve wanted for a while. And so I'm really fucking enjoying that.

Twig

Yeah, I love it when people have to figure out, “Now that we're in this relationship, how do we make this work?”

Ben

But I also love the AU season. I think the retooling of Haruta and Kurosawa is actually really helpful. I think taking a break from Maki is actually helpful for appreciating Haruta when you come back to them. I think you end up liking Haruta more by the time you get to Ossan's Love Returns and seeing the potential in him. The love people are trying to pour on to him in the current season is more accessible to me as a viewer because I got to spend time with Haruta growing to love him in the AU season.

Twig

I also just have affection for an entire season that seems to have basically been built off of like a throwaway reference to episode one, when Haruta says he's most attracted to stewardesses. And then, and also, like, maybe a pun because Kurosawa’s character is called bucho which means, like, manager essentially through all of the regular Ossan's Love stories. But in the AU he's kucho because he's a captain. And I think that's very funny.

Ben

In terms of my ratings, I'm looking at on MDL, I gave Ossan's Love and Ossan's Love Returns a 9. But I gave the AU season a 9.5. [Ben and Twig laugh] So, there's your answer.

Twig

There you go.

Ben

Twig, what did you rate the second season? I know ratings aren't always your thing, but did you give the second season a rating?

Twig

I didn't. If I was going to give it a rating. Ossan's Love Returns? Yeah, I’d give it a 9.

Ben

It's a 9 for me in that I think if you're into BL, you should watch the show, but I don't know that it is the most accessible show, so I don't want to give it a 10.

Twig

I think the thing about this show, too, is it's about multiple relationships. It's not just about Maki and Haruta, and I wouldn't even say their relationship dominates the story. So, to rank it against other BL as a romance narrative is quite difficult. It's about family and what that means in a queer context. Part of that is romance, but it's not even the biggest part? The family feels is what gets me about this series.

Ben

That's going to do it for Ossan's Love. We have succeeded at our mission. NiNi has agreed to watch the show. Twig and I got to unpack the entirety of this whole franchise. We have the benefit of knowing it gets better over time now, and so I don't begrudge people bouncing when they did in 2018. I think that in 2024, it is beneficial for people who care about the history of the genre to go back and properly engage with Ossan's Love. I genuinely think it is worth reconsidering your initial opinion. They… grow. Their characters are not static. What has occurred is taken seriously and what worked and didn't work is considered as they move forward.

NiNi

That is going to wrap us up on the Ossan's Love episode. Twig, it was so great having you on, and I hope you come back.

Twig

Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun.

NiNi

With that, we out. Say bye to the people, Twig.

Twig

Dispatch!👍

Ben

Dispatch! 👍

NiNi

At some point I'm going to find out what that means, and then I will be unstoppable. Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace.

#ossan's love returns #ossan's love #ben and nini's conversations #podcast #lgbtq #the conversation #on art #thai bl #bl series #japanese bl #spring series #spring 2024

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vasito-de-leche · 7 hours ago

Text

;R1999 MEDICINE POCKET - General Headcanons

Compilation of headcanons and analysis on Medicine Pocket as a character and other related things.

started going thru my askbox, saw there's an insane amount of medpoc prompts, and then realized I haven't thought that deeply about this feral dog so here we are!

I missed doing analysis like this oooo the feeling of neurons making connections as I go thru the character's entire page oooo. since I still don't have them, screenshots and examples will be taken directly from the fandom wikia as usual!

On the subject of intersex identities, Medicine Pocket's mother and their gender identity.

It's worth noting that as of the time writing this (with GL currently in 2.2 and CN having just released 2.5) the game still has only two characters who have been confirmed to live outside of the gender binary, both released during launch; The Fool, who uses male pronouns but states that he has no gender, and Medicine Pocket, who couldn't care less about pronouns and explicitly mentions being intersex in one of their voicelines.

The game is consistent with this, as Medicine Pocket is often referred to with "they/them" pronouns, and occasionally "he/him," such as a daily tidbit from November 18th 2024.

As far as I know, they've yet to refer to Medicine Pocket with female pronouns.

While Medicine Pocket seems to approach the subject of gender identity as an afterthought at best and a nuisance at worst, never stating which labels they identify with, it's important to note that they're still openly queer. Upon a first reading, I didn't think much of them, but now I realize that a big chunk of their character does focus on their queerness in ways that are just as unconventional as they are.

Their 01 Story allows us to learn about Medicine Pocket's background, namely their mother, as it focuses on her for the most part. This is also the second instance of Medicine Pocket's status as an intersex person being brought up.

While I'm not intersex myself, I'm a nonbinary queer person who is fully aware of the many, many convoluted and cruel ways society has enforced in order to "correct" and assimilate us into the norm, such as conversion therapy and intersex surgeries, all done with the pretense of "helping us adapt." Medicine Pocket seems to be an example of this.

One may interpret this as a misguided but well-meaning attempt from a concerned mother, but I interpret it as a heartless moment of dehumanization.

In this Story, there is a very clear parallel being drawn between the dogs at the kennel she owns and her own child, between money as her only source of happiness and the necessity to pay for her child's operation.

Her entire world and business revolves around the kennel, it's stated to be a family business with good reputation, and the dogs are described as a positive thing--"man's best friend," and friends who can keep you company--but her reaction to both is of indifference and, at worst, contempt.

The priority here isn't the thriving family business, nor the dogs she's selling to the University of Utah, nor what will come out of the experiments they will go through; the priority is the money.

And what is this money for? Her own child's operation, with the specific intent of helping them become "an ordinary person." Not for their health, not because they asked for this--because she wants them to be normal, thus highlighting the themes of assimilation within society.

As seen before, Medicine Pocket confirms they lack any reproductive organs. I don't know enough to speculate or research what sort of medical condition they have, but the fact that they say "I just don't have any reproductive organs" could imply they did not receive that operation in the end. After all, becoming "ordinary" would imply living within the binary of female or male genitals exclusively.

With the lack of information about their childhood, I personally like to headcanon that this is when the parallels between Medicine Pocket and dogs continues from their mother's perspective; maybe the cons outdo the pros, maybe the procedure was too expensive, maybe she didn't feel like nurturing this specific puppy anymore, regardless of the reasoning, Medicine Pocket's mother simply chose to give them away to someone else who had a use for them. Exactly like the previous batch of puppies.

As agile as usual, her child got into the white van without looking back. That van had taken away countless almost-weaned puppies from their mothers, and on this day, it was doing the same thing to her.

Another personal headcanon I have following that one is that Medicine Pocket was given away for experimentation purposes given their uniqueness--an intersex arcanist child. It certainly lines up with other darker themes within the game, such as the treatment orphaned arcanist children receive within SPDM, the ableism and bigoted mindsets towards arcanists that parallel real issues in real life, and the appropriation of arcanist culture into human society, etc etc.

Of course, in retrospect, there is also something bittersweet in the way that the only thing Medicine Pocket seems to have inherited from their mother is the aspect of money, as a big part of their character is based around finding ways to receive funding for their experiments. Money is the focus of their Insight voiceline, their First Encounter voiceline also involves finding new investors, and there is a distinct focus on how much Medicine Pocket's actions COST Laplace overall, even in the Main Story. Their Story 02 is literally named "The Wrecker of Laplace" and involves their expenses report. This is a very small detail and connection, but I found it quite interesting!

The last thing I want to bring up for this specific bullet point is how Medicine Pocket grew up to be exactly everything their mother did not care about.

The opposite of an ordinary person; they are considered an unconventional albeit irritating genius within Laplace, as seen in their Storyboard.

They are a noisy dog who went out and pioneered an abundance of inventions and research, such as the development of Picrasma Candy shown above, their study of arcanist bloodlines and an arcanist's arcanum that later helps Enigma during Chapter 7 "Vereinsamt," and more. They are a team leader and a renowned, published biological researcher, as seen in the LSCC trailer and another voiceline of theirs.

It is a testament to Medicine Pocket's determination, stubbornness and self-centered personality, the way they were able to thrive in life and in every aspect that their mother did not care about nor support. And this aspect relates heavily to their Beast Afflatus and animalistic themes!

On the subject of Medicine Pocket's self-experimentation, animals and Laplace

We already discussed the way Medicine Pocket has been compared to the kennel dogs sold for experimentation, but we only explored this from their mother's perspective. On a general level, we can understand that Medicine Pocket's animalistic and dog-like behaviour exists because they were raised alongside these very same dogs, and their affinity for Beagles is a direct reference to the "Beagle Club" radiation experiments--it's a very clear motif within their character, but I would still like to expand on it a little!

First of all, we need to talk about Laplace, its ethics and practices. So bear with me!

Over the course of the recent patches, we have seen certain members of Laplace being shown together for most promotional material; this is later on confirmed within 37's Anecdote as a "friend group" consisting of 37, Mesmer Jr, X, Medicine Pocket and Ezra. For this discussion, we are going to set aside 37, an outsider to Laplace, and Ezra, a human character.

Both X and Medicine Pocket both have animals commonly used for experimentation as their Udimos; X has a Laboratory mouse, and Medicine Pocket has a Beagle puppy. On the other hand, we have Mesmer Jr. whose Udimo is not an animal, but a representation of the Artificial Somnambulism Therapy machine. With this, we can trace a pattern within the arcanists of Laplace, which paints them as not only expendable resources, but as something a little more tragic considering their respective themes--X, who harbors a deep-seated hatred for authorities that abuse their power (as seen in his own Anecdote), Medicine Pocket, who is based on the "Beagle Club" radiation experiments, and Mesmer Jr., who carries internalized bigotry for her own kind and is treated as nothing but an extension of her family's legacy.

While I won't be discussing the broad history of animal rights and ethics in experiments from real life, there are lines to be connected between these specific themes and the dehumanization of these characters--which also extends to the rest of members of Laplace like Lucy and Ulrich, by virtue of being Awakened and not being able to comply within the expected "norm" of humans, nor arcanists (the main theme of "Vereinsamt"). As players, we understand Enigma's reaction to Lucy being demoted, and there is a nuanced conversation to be had about the consequences of Lucy's orders even if they led to a great outcome; it is both tragic and inspiring.

But we must also understand this: Lucy's actions are still objectively within the scope of the Foundation's own history and ethics as I've mentioned them before, she is merely being used as a scapegoat due to the visibility of these casualties, which causes the Foundation to lose face.

And how does this relate exactly to Medicine Pocket?

Because their work ethic of self-experimentation follows this very same pattern. In the trail "Experiment Record" from Chapter 6 "E Lucevan le Stelle" Stage 19, which details the process of making Picrasma Candy safe for consumption, the extra addendums indicate that the one consuming all this candy during the experiments is none other than Medicine Pocket.

Their self-experimentation is only considered an issue and a nuisance because they are loud, reckless and take up space and resources. Because this is a coworker who canonically runs on all fours when excited, bites furniture and chases after frisbees, exactly like a dog.

Out of the three characters discussed before, only two are able to subvert the expectations of their respective Udimos: X and Medicine Pocket. The former by putting on an innocent and obedient act while doing whatever he wants behind the scenes, and the latter by being so shamelessly disobedient and self-serving that it is near impossible to stop them.

After a quick and surface look into why beagles were used for the experiments, some articles mention their docile and compliant nature, the total opposite of Medicine Pocket's personality. The subversion is clear there. Rather than being someone else's guinea pig, Medicine Pocket happily uses their own body as their main playground to test their experiments and research; look at their third item, "Beagle 0-1 Fluid Analysis Apparatus," which quite literally turns their own blood as a weapon, aside from monitoring their vitals. They have voicelines urging Vertin to give them a full dose despite the potential dangers, or noting the effects of another self-inflicted experiment--both their "Sleeves and Hands" and "Clothing and Torso" voicelines respectively.

Rather than assimilating within "proper" lab etiquette and polite society, Medicine Pocket is shamelessly themself above all, doing the things they want to do whenever they want to. There are many ways to read their character; perhaps, because their mother took away their bodily agency, they can now reclaim power over their identity by being as chaotic as a feral puppy or by using their body for self-experimentation. Perhaps they have a special connection with dogs because of the way they were raised and thus actively chose to act like one, since they felt more like family than their own mother, etc etc.

This aspect of reclaiming power over their own body and identity, alongside the way others openly disapprove of them for various different reasons, can be seen within the Beast Afflatus--which focuses on the focus of the individual, one's survival and struggle against traditions or systems that aim to contain them, the power and freedom to choose and carve a way for oneself. It's the struggle of one person against the majority. All of these things can be seen in Medicine Pocket!

Round of extra headcanons I didn't have the energy to fit anywhere else

I like to think Medicine Pocket's hair is white (simply because their eyebrows also seem to be white in art) so the brown parts are dyed specifically to look more like a beagle.

Alongside being intersex and nonbinary, they also couldn't care less about conventional romantic relationships--while uninterested in sexual relationships overall, I can see them having meaningless one-night stands for research specifically. They're shameless and very open about it. The only type of serious commitment I can see them having are QRPs, but their partners get bullied even harder by them so no one is sure if this is a good thing or not.

Medicine Pocket has one voiceline which states that they do even more fucked up experiments in the suitcase; I like to think they're the equivalent of the ThoughtEmporium over on Youtube, doing things like getting rid of their own lactose intolerance, creating meat grapes and such.

They just happen to be allergic to most things that dogs are allergic to. In the same vein, they bark but it sounds nowhere close like a proper dog's bark and everyone thinks its sort of cringe, but saying this out loud within their vicinity will only earn you One Huge Fucking Chomp from them.

Unlike Pavia, who does not quite keep track of the names of the wolfpack, Medicine Pocket can tell apart every single dog they meet, no matter how identical or how long it's been since they last saw them. They have a lot of knowledge on how to care for animals from their childhood, and often bring back all sorts of dogs; from rescues to literally stealing someone else's dog just be cause they thought its owner was being a shithead. It's usually a problem, because they often just sneak them into their office without telling anyone and suddenly it's Barbie's Great Puppy Chase Adventure in Laplace.

I also like to think that the dogs they're not allowed to truly keep are given away to people Medicine Pocket personally checks and makes sure will be a good fit for the dog.

#reverse: 1999 #reverse 1999 #revers 1999 medicine pocket #medicine pocket #i dont remember how i used to format most things in this blog #its been a WHILE #but rambling abt medpoc was very fun!#I HAVENT FORGOTTEN ABOUT JOE DIVORCE PART 2 DONT WORRY

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coolbeesbro · 5 months ago

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I've added new products to the shop! I finished up this design on my Twitch stream last night, and have this available as both paper prints and the very first button/pin available in my shop! This design will be available until 10/01/2024, and all purchases will come with a free diseased heart sticker, and any order over $45 will get a bonus holographic sticker!

#cotl #cult of the lamb #cult of the lamb fanart #narinder #cotl narinder #cult of the lamb narinder #the one who waits #toww #cotl toww #cult of the lamb toww

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ruxxifystars · 5 months ago

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✦ 💫 RUXX'S INTRODUCTION!

🍓 BASIC DNI! <<< ✦

🍰 #01 ✦

heyaa! my name is ruxx and I also go by other names; acruxx, sammy, shii. my pronouns are she/xe with xe pref! I have adhd so please be patient with me! I am leoneed oshi but I'm also vbs fan as well. I like drawing stuff, especially my favorite sillies aka leoneed!! 🫶

you can ask any questions! or even request doodles.? although I rarely accept those.. oh! and my favorites are shiho 🍜 and kohane 🐹! 🥹

🍰 #02 ✦

get to know more about me! my hobbies are drawing, ukulele, animating, and video editing. I'm a filipino 🇵🇭! my birthday is 12/27 / december 27 which is the same with the Kagamines! my sexuality is lesbian and demiaroace.

other interests are SIG universe, DDLC, OMORI, yuri/gl mangas, yttd, +more! would like to add more but this is the information you'll get for now lol..

🍰 #TAGS ✦

#ruxxifyart - my arts

#ruxxifyrequest - requested arts

#ruxxifyask - ask me

#ruxxifyyaps - just me yapping about random stuffs

#pinned 📌

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ghostrecall · 7 months ago

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Kova "Roach" Grimad

A veteran creek crawler, she was a Space Cadet when she lost both her arms and an eye from shrap metal after a laser struck the belt of her GL-21. She continued running missions afterwards, then meeting her spouse after reaching the rank of Death Captian. Kova filled her C-01 forms, enjoyed her materity leave and now returns to active duty. She rarely dives anymore perfering more backline roles, her armor usually reserved for ceremonial and training purposes. She'll get your logistics sorted, but don't call Kova an automaton conspirator for her appearance and especially don't insinuate that she got all her fellow divers killed. You might just find yourself on the receiving end of a mean left hook.

#helldivers 2 #helldivers ii #helldivers fanart #helldivers oc #original character #art #art student #animation #expressions #double take #character art #oc #oc art #oc artwork #rough drawing #rough animation #sketch #digital drawing #digital art

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zahri-melitor · 7 days ago

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Newish Comics (15/01/2025):

Absolute Batman #3: This comic continues to feel like the triumph of aesthetic over storytelling. Sorry, Snyder. Tiny Bruce and Selina are very cute, despite that.

Alfred, stop stalking your daughter who explicitly told you to stay out of her life.

Action Comics #1080: In the Clark story I quite liked the range of heroes that got tapped to help round back up the Phantom Zoners. A lot of heavy hitters. I can also see for Superman fans that Clark and Mon-El are very much having a moment here. Personally, I’m still giggling that Kon hasn’t taken off the Over-Admiral cape yet and is still swanning around in it. (Every other family member other than Clark switched to jackets in the last two years; Kon, the original jacket guy, now has a cape on)

In the Kara story, we are so clearly at the climax, and I am loving the discussion of identities and echoes of each other in this. Particularly that we just got an echo of Kara Zor-L. I really want to see what Tamaki does with that next issue.

Batman and Robin: Year One #3: What is really interesting about this that it’s so early in Alfred, Bruce and Dick’s relationships that all three of them are still messing up and learning the balance for each other. I like that it’s early and rough, and that we’re going to see how they form those strong bonds through this story. And that was particularly evident in this issue, where Alfred is frustrated with both Bruce and Dick but unable to communicate his problems to Dick; Bruce is not yet able to disengage himself from hyperfixation to remember that he has a child to take care of; and Dick’s pushing for boundaries and not finding them, while also not taking enough care in risky situations, and his mess ups are causing harm to Bruce.

Batman/Superman: World’s Finest #34: It was nice to see the version of Babs and Jimmy that Waid consider exist in this timeline. Barbara is so tired, folks.

Catwoman #71: something that fills me with joy is non-American writers getting to write stories for DC that are set outside North America. In this case, Selina is a perfect choice for it because her background specifically involves a lot of time in Europe pulling various cons and uncovering plots. So having a Norwegian writer having Selina running around in Sweden? It’s fun, especially with the cultural touches and jokes that you wouldn’t get from a US based writer doing that.

Challengers of the Unknown #1: I’m trialling this for the Justice League plot. I’ve read a few scattered issues of Challengers stuff before, but never for them yet.

My main thought was that this title was going WAY too hard with the Challengers going ‘oh we’re just mere mortals next these heroes and gods’ as they’re unpowered humans, and that would feel more reasonable if they weren’t working with heroes like… Ted Kord and Michael Holt, both who famously are unpowered heroes. Not to mention the Question, or all the Arrows and Bats running around. I think you’ll fit in okay, folks.

Green Lantern/Green Arrow: World’s Finest Special #1: Hard Travelling Heroes get a WF era book. It does what it says on the tin. Deathstroke for boring reasons attempts to kill Hal, (and incidentally Ollie and Barry), and after Slade fails miserably at that, he walks off the page to go attempt attacking teenagers over in NTT and watch Grant die.

You’re such a loser, Slade.

Dinah gets to appear in this title exactly long enough for Ollie to call her to pull Hal out of danger with a plane and patch him up, despite the fact the boys are on a cross-country roadtrip and have presumably left her behind running Sherwood Florist on her own. Lucky Dinah.

(Yeah this sort of GA/GL stuff is not my favourite era for Dinah sorry)

Jenny Sparks #5: so after having read another of Tom King’s asynchronous plot minis this past week, the big things I noted reading this today was that we finally, as of issue 5, have a handle on what is actually happening in this story.

Look I don’t mind a story told asynchronously (Indeed I think they can be really fun ways to mess with people’s understanding of how things happen and give context), but this one needed more of a hook and more explanation earlier, because reading it monthly has dragged horribly, and while I think it will read better in trade it still feels very very late to finally have a decent grasp or understanding of what the goal of the plot is.

I’m also very very confused as of the final page of this issue, because my understanding from the nonsense going on in terms of the concept of this title, plus how Outsiders 2023 decided to lean really hard into ‘there are lots of Century Babies of various types right now, but we’ve wiped Jenny Quantum from existence’ thing, was that Jenny Quantum at this point only exists in the Wildstorm universe timeline and n52 and got deleted by Rebirth.

The final page of this issue involved Jenny Sparks, in 2016, being in the bedroom of a blonde teenage girl asleep in her bed.

…

I know Jenny Quantum has black hair, not blonde, but given everything I’m not convinced the team on this book is aware that Jenny Quantum has black hair, not blonde. It’s certainly suggestive of this teenager being SOME sort of Century Baby.

The New Gods #1: the art on this title is sumptuous and worth reading for that alone. They went HARD for this launch. And it’s seducing me, because part of why I haven’t read more New Gods is getting past the Kirbyness of all the designs.

It’s a very very Ram V title. He’s clearly having fun, and I suspect is going to recruit some more fans for the cause (godly space opera).

Nightwing #121: Look Watters, you didn’t have to bribe me with Babs-hacks-the-Pentagon, but as a Dixon BOP enjoyer, I am glad to see it being acknowledged that Babs can hack the Pentagon. I’m enjoying how in conversation with the Taylor run this is – I do love when a writer picks up threads from where things were left and puts their own spin on the situation, rather than just hitting a reset button and wandering off in their own direction.

Plastic Man No More! #4: and this continues to be extremely Black Label body horror. Eel blows himself up with a nuclear bomb, Luke doesn’t get blown up by the bomb, and Tim lies to Batman.

Luke O’Brien reminds me a fair bit of Owen Mercer in various ways in this title and uh I’m not sure that’s a great thing? At least his mother is happy.

The Question: All Along the Watchtower #2: I think it’s interesting that DC are running this complicated multi strand plot at the moment in the birth of this new JLA, and it particularly seems to have been a chance to use a diverse range of characters. But there’s some odd outliers, as most of this book are characters able to support a run by themselves (Batwoman, the Blue Beetles, Animal Man, heck even Nightshade) and then there's random appearances like Bulleteer, who I had to look up.

I'm still not sure on the vibe and tone of this book being particularly Reneeish yet, but I'm willing to be convinced, and it's at least trying.

The Warlord #81: this week in Skartaris…Jennifer and Joshua meet each other! Oh boy oh boy we’re back to a main plot here, who knew!

Travis has a dream about the time he fought and killed clone-Joshua, recapping the important elements and complexities of Joshua’s backstory for anyone who hasn’t read all previous 80 comics.

And Jennifer and Joshua team up against some New Atlantis troops trying to kidnap them…after which Jennifer clues into Joshua being mysterious and unusual. She decides to take him along with her on her hunt for Travis.

Siblings United!

#z canon read throughs #newish comics

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scrumptiousstuffs · 3 months ago

Note

do you think we will have some explicits scenes in THK? (just like or better than the ones in OF) saw ppl saying they don’t think we will have much, but im pretty sure will be all about kantbison & fadelstyle sexual tension

It depends on what you mean by explicit anon 🙂

GMMTV as a company has always been more "family-friendly" and essentially cater for the younger audience. I think it was @firstkanaphans who coined the term GMMTV BL/GL series as being the Disney version of gay shows and I'm inclined to agree.

Only Friends as a show was actually a step forward for the company (in terms of NC scenes) and to some extent, it was an experiment to see whether it will be accepted by GMMTV audience, which given the great success must be a relief for the directors (and to GMMTV who took the gamble).

Soon after that, if I'm not mistaken, GreatInn stated they watched OF scenes as inspiration for their NC scenes in Wandee Goodday (which I still think is super funny 😁).

Now, you do not put FirstKhaotung and JoongDunk in a show together and not expect amazing chemistry. So, I have no doubt we will have enough sexual tension to break a mountain (I am also expecting excellent make-out/kissing sessions from both couples, hehe)

Plus, these 4 have banger physique. We know JoongDunk are fit. With the amount of gym sessions that FirstKhaotung have been putting in for the last year and the way their biceps/shoulders are getting broader with each picture....you can be sure Jojo will capitalise on these - we will certainly be having all four boys shirtless at some point and perhaps even the boys just being in their boxers (at the very least, we already know we have Bison in his satin boxers lounging like a princess in bed 😂)

At the bare minimum, I think we will likely be seeing NC scenes similar to the level of OF and Wandee Goodday.

However, if you are expecting explicit scenes akin to KinnPorsche (or 4 minutes) where we see bare bottoms and more, I don't think so.

Having said that, I'm now almost 100% convinced we will be having The Heart Killers airing at iQIYI (otherwise, why do we have all four boys attending the iQIYI Thai 2025 celebration on 01/11/24?)...we might be having the cut/clean version on YT/usual GMM25 channel in Thai and the uncut version in IQIYI (where, who knows 🤷‍♀️? maybe Jojo and the THK team will venture beyond the boys being shirtless)

19/10/2024

#asked and answered #khaotung thanawat #first kanaphan #joong archen #dunk natachai #kantbison #stylefadel #the heart killers #sigh IQIYI....I guess its better than WeTV

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shibuinni3 · 1 year ago

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I became the main role of a gl drama

01/01/24; Capa para futura doação.

Asaya Jurin e Kondou Chisa, Xtraordinary Girls.

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cyberneticloverboy · 11 days ago

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01. WHERE?glrancongic!

[pt: WHERE?glrancongic]

a congic (link) identity related to the song WHERE ARE THEY NOW? by emily jeffri in the context of the hero/gl!ranboo!

no spoons for id, help appreciated but not forced <3 coined by felix!

taglist!!! @radiomogai @idwl @rwuffles @daybreakthing @boingogender

#congic #songgender #musicagender #moqai #moqai coining #mogai #mogai coining #qai #qai coining #xeno #xeno coining #xenogender #xenogender coining #ranboo #generation loss #genloss #WHERE?glrancongic

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ghelgheli · 11 months ago

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Stuff I Read In February 2024

bold indicates favourites

Books

The Mantle of the Prophet, Roy Mottahedeh

Serious Weakness, Porpentine Charity Heartscape

The Traitor Baru Cormorant, Seth Dickinson

Pamphlets, Zines, etc.

Queer Fire: The George Jackson Brigade, Men Against Sexism, and Gay Struggle Against Prison [link]

Reform or Revolution? Rosa Luxemburg

Armed Joy, Alfredo M. Bonanno [link]

Designing Freedom, Stafford Beer [link]

Yuri/GL

Kill Switch, 1172

Immortal Parody, Kim Jong Geon

Her Tale of Shim Chong, Seri & Biwan

There's Weird Voices Coming from the Room Next Door! Suzuki Senpai

An Easy Introduction to Love Triangles (To Pass the Exam!) / Goukaku no Tame no! Yasashii Sankaku Kankei Nyuumon, Canno

Gentle Flutters, One Useless Dogggg

What Does the Fox Say? Gyeomji & Gaji

Our Dreams at Dusk / Shimanami Tasogare, Yuhki Kamatani

There Is No Love Wishing Upon a Star / Kono Koi wo Hoshi ni wa Negawanai, murasakino/Shinoa

Short Fiction

Serious Weakness but with Girls, Porpentine Charity Heartscape [link]

Dirty Wi-Fi, Porpentine Charity Heartscape [link]

Bist-o-chār sā'at dar xāb o bidāri / 24 Restless Hours, Samad Behrangi [link]

Yek hulu o hezār hulu / One Peach and a Thousand Peaches, Samad Behrangi [link]

Palestine

What Does It Mean To Be Palestinian Now? Noura Erakat, Ahmed Moor, Noor Hindi, Mohammed El-Kurd, Laila Al-Arian 01/25/2024 [link]

"If You Say Anything to Anyone, a Zaka Van Will Run You Over", Brad Pearce 10/18/2023 [link]

The Epistemicide of the Palestinians, Abdulla Moaswes 02/02/2024 [link]

Manufacturing Content, Nora Barrows-Friedman & Matt Lieb [link]

Comparison is the Way We Know the World, Masha Gessen 12/19/2023 [link]

The Story Behind the New York Times October 7 Exposé, Jeremy Scahill, Ryan Grim, Daniel Boguslaw 02/28/2024 [link]

Queer &c

Hands off our lives, our stories, and our bodies, AC 06/10/2022 [link]

Trapped in the Wrong Theory: Rethinking Trans Oppression and Resistance, Talia Mae Bettcher [doi]

A Cyborg Manifesto, Donna Haraway

Why Are "Gender Critical" Activists So Fond of Gametes? Julia Serano 02/13/2024 [link]

Pol

Why I Left the PSL… or the DSA or Socialist Alternative or whatever, filler kid 07/20/2021 [link]

Allies Not Accomplices: An Indigenous Perspective & Provocation, 05/02/2014 [link]

Basic Program of the Bureau of Unitary Urbanism, Attila Kotányi & Raoul Vaneigem 1961 [link]

Abolition, Nsámbu Za Suékama 06/06/2020 [link]

The Eye Upon Us Has Turned Upon Them, Nsámbu Za Suékama 07/16/2023 [link]

The Hindu Nationalists Using the Pro-Israel Playbook, Aparna Gopalan 06/28/2023 [link]

Ram Mandir and Hindutva Fascist Myth of Decolonisation, Rida Fathima 02/07/2024 [link]

How the United States Crippled Haiti's Rice Industry, Leslie Mullin [link]

A Talk to Teachers, James Baldwin [link]

Stranger in the Village, James Baldwin [link]

Other

no good alone, Rayne Fisher-Quann 04/03/2021 [link]

Everyone's A Critic, Richard Joseph 01/13/2022 [link]

Neoplatonic kingship in the Islamic world: Akbar’s millennial history, Jos Gommans & Said Reza Huseini [link]

Is `Race Science' Making a Comeback? Angela Saini 07/10/2019 [link]

you’ve been traumatized into hating reading, Ismatu Gwendolyn 02/15/2024 [link]

#reading prog #“solving” the problem of ltr & rtl by using romanizations #looks like it's been a full year i've done this now..

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the-conversation-pod · 6 months ago

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GMMTV Breakfast Club: On 23.5 and Only Boo!

AND WE'RE BACK!

School's in at GMMTV, but we gotta put two series in detention for not fulfilling the assignment. The actors were charming, but the finishes were...rough. Ben, NiNi and Ginny talk 23.5 and Only Boo, the merits of high school stories, and the specific challenges of telling stories about queer high schoolers.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:01:15 - Introduction: Two High School Shows from GMMTV 00:02:18 - 23.5: Early Reactions 00:14:18 - 23.5: Supporting Characters 00:21:27 - 23.5: Frustration with the Writing and Execution 00:33:42 - 23.5: Final Arc and Ratings 00:38:42 - Only Boo! 00:48:06 - Only Boo: Popping the Bubble 00:58:42 - Only Boo: If You're Gonna Do An Idol Story, Commit 01:05:06 - Only Boo: Final Thoughts and Ratings 01:08:45 - Outro: High School Blues

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 Introduction: Two High School Shows from GMMTV

Ben

And we're back. This week we're going to be discussing 23.5 and Only Boo. We brought our friend Ginny along as usual. Say hi, Ginny.

Ginny

Hey folks!

NiNi

We are talking high school from GMMTV. Ben and I, in the VIIB Awards, we discussed that it might feel like GMMTV does high school a lot, but they don't actually. So it was really interesting to see them delve into these high school stories with, let's say, mixed results.

Ben

It's kind of weird that GMMTV went from, like, not really doing high school to having two shows running simultaneously. It's kind of surprising from them, honestly.

NiNi

Lest we forget to point it out, 23.5 is also GMMTV's first GL. I think in terms of that, that they handled it pretty well as a GL.

00:02:18 23.5: Early Reactions

NiNi

Ben, what is 23.5 about?

Ben

23.5 is a high school GL about a young woman named Ongsa who is moving from Phuket to Bangkok. She's a fan of this girl on Instagram and happens to run into her very early in her new time at the school, develops a crush on her, accidentally befriends her through her IG, but gets presumed to be a guy, and then proceeds to high key catfish this girl [laughs] sorting out her feelings about whether or not she, could possibly like her.

She lives with her parents, her older sister, and their cousin who's the same age as her. Her cousin's very much an easy autism read who ends up in her own romance with her big cousin's friend. We end up in this show dealing with Ongsa's complicated feelings of self-worth and how in her tendency to put her own self down, she kind of lets down the people around her. At least I think that's what the show's trying to do.

Ginny, why don't you walk us through how you felt in anticipation of the show after it got announced a very long time ago.

Ginny

So long ago. So Milk and Love, the two lead actresses, were, of course, the side couple in Bad Buddy. So it was no surprise that they were announced as the lead couple of the first GMMTV GL. I was very excited just to see GMMTV finally moving into this space. It's been good to see more studios open to producing GLs and GMMTV being one of the biggest, definitely wanted to see them do it. So, without really caring much about what the story was going to be, I just wanted to see them do a GL and do a decent job. I was not super invested in, oh, is this going to be a plot or a premise that really appeals to me? I was just like, let's have some girls fall in love and make a good story.

It was a longer run up than I think a lot of people wanted. There was a lot of disgruntlement, some conspiracy theory feelings about it that I don't really hold to. I do think they were giving as much to this show as they do to their big flagship BL stories. Was very excited and also nervous tuning into the first episode because this clearly was going to be a weathervane for them to decide how much to invest in the GL side going forward.

NiNi

It was over a year that we've waited and waited and waited for this. They had a really long shoot schedule. They were shooting this thing for an inordinate amount of time, and I think that for me, added to the anticipation. Because it felt like they were taking their time with it, so I was very excited about that. I like Milk, I like Love, I like June, I like View. I was really looking forward to watching all of them really get into this with a director and a team that I had enjoyed. This is from Fon Kanittha, and Fon did 10 Years Ticket, which is one of my favorite things that GMMTV has done.

Ben, what about you? How were you anticipating this? What were you looking forward to about it? What were some of your concerns coming into it?

Ben

I was admittedly really nervous about this show going into it. We had drama in the reactions to this show in just the original casting choices.Fourth and Gemini were originally announced as part of the cast for this, and then, looks like GMMTV shuffled some stuff because they wanted to prioritize the boys' availability for a different project because My School President was received apparently really well, at least enough for GMMTV to make some different decisions.

But there was a lot of drama in the English language reactions about not wanting BL paired boys in this at all. So I was worried from the get go that we were already having fights about the market that they were trying to pull in. And I was really nervous about what GMMTV was gonna do with this. I've bitched on this podcast quite a few times about when I think BL doesn't necessarily care that much about how queer their boys read and sometimes ship is more important than some sort of queer coming of age beat that they really wanna hit. I was really nervous about what that might look like for a GL because we don't have a framework for what that looks like. there's actually not a great deal of lesbian coming of age romance internationally, even, to pull from, and even within Thailand there's only a couple of projects that I can really refer to from like a lesbian film history. And most of those are for college girls. So there were a lot of big question marks for me going into this, so I actually went in with not a whole lot of expectation from this. I'm admittedly not familiar with Fon's work. I did not watch 10 Years Ticket. But I knew that folks like NiNi were really excited and wanted to see what Fon doing a GL would look like.

So, there was a lot of anticipation and hope about what it could be, but I actually went in with very few expectations about what it might look like as a result.

NiNi

So, Ginny, having those expectations and coming into the show, what were your first impressions of 23.5? What are some of the first things that you picked up on and maybe really enjoyed about it?

Ginny

I loved the beginning. There were a couple different ways I was afraid that it might go wrong. One was that it would just feel like a gender flipped BL. Another was that it would be like overly softened and pastel in, especially what is usually labeled sapphic romance these days, frequently things are all very soft and delicate.

NiNi

[laughs] Vaseline all over the lens and, like, nobody's talking too loud, yeah.

Ginny

Yeah, and I like to see women in stories, and especially women falling in love in stories feel as much like real people with all of the edges that real people have as boys get to do. So a thing that just thrilled me from episode 1 was what a mess Ongsa is. Ongsa played by Milk, incredible performance. Whatever criticisms, and we have many of the show, I think we can all agree that Milk was wonderful in this role and really did a phenomenal job of playing this tense and awkward and intensely self-conscious teenage lesbian that I saw so many people I know in. The way that she falls on the floor after having a phone message with her crush that's a little bit awkward but also positive and the way she would just flail around. The way it felt like she didn't quite know what to do with her body, like she's still growing and gangly and awkward, was just so beautifully done and I really enjoyed it. And it really did feel distinctly like girls as opposed to just, we're gonna do a BL but with wigs on.

I can't even put a finger on it, but there were so many little details that I was like, yes, this feels like young girls falling in love. The way that you feel about a pretty girl in school that you can barely even stand to talk to, and you feel like this giant gangly monster and she's this otherworldly gorgeous creature. So many of those nuances, especially in the earlier episodes, were just beautifully done and I loved them so much.

NiNi

I feel like one of the things that helped contribute to that feel was the wardrobe. From the time I saw all the ways they were dressed, I was just like, this is what tropical girls in high school dressed like. There's a lot of t-shirts and shorts.

Ginny

Yes!

NiNi

It's not fancy, it's not done up. You're at home and you're chilling and you're wearing a t -shirt and some running shorts and maybe you've got socks on because your feet are cold for some reason. It made me think of growing up back in Trinidad because this is how it is. It felt really real. It felt like, okay, they understand girls.

Ginny

Yes. There's one scene where they're running around the school at night for reasons—they shouldn't be there—but they're all in their little t-shirts. And it's like this slumber party feeling of excitement. And you're close to this person that you have a crush on. And somehow the wardrobe just made it all feel so much more like, yes, I've been there. I know what that feels like.

NiNi

Ben, what about you? What are some of the things that you enjoyed when you started watching the show?

Ben

I was relieved that Ongsa already seemed to know that she liked girls. And so we get to enjoy Milk playing this human disaster of a lesbian in the early episodes. I often feel like there's a tension with some of the actors about their image. And some of them seem to struggle with having to be cringy or kind of gross. And Milk is not one of them. It's why I think a lot of her characters have such a believable quality to them. The way they move, they feel like they're present in the space. They don't feel necessarily like they're aware of the camera. They're just so focused on what they're trying to feel in the moment.

I rarely have trouble accessing Milk's characters across the various performances we've been lucky enough to have from her. And I really liked her in the early stages. I liked how she played the absolute mess that was her character. The way she was struggling with same-sex attraction and the idea that reciprocity was not something that was accessible to her. That's a very common queer feeling that I think was captured really well. So I really understood Ongsa's early hesitancy when it came to clearing things up with Sun. And I thought that was really well done.

NiNi

I feel like I always end up with the 'I as well!' But I too am here to praise Milk. I have enjoyed Milk as an actor. She hasn't had a lot to do yet, but with this role, I feel like she nailed it on from minute one, the very first frame that she's in, I a hundred percent believe her. I believe everything about her character. I believe the feelings that her character has. I believe that she believes that she is this awkward loser who's never gonna have friends or anybody. And I also believe when she stops believing that.

There's some quality to Milk and her acting—maybe it's the ability to go for the cringy without being too worried about how she looks—she nailed on that character. A hundred percent believable from beginning to end, even through some of the wobbles that we're gonna talk about later on in terms of the story. There was never a point in time where I did not believe Milk as Ongsa and that this is how Ongsa would react to these things happening in her life.

00:14:18 23.5: Supporting Characters

NiNi

Let's talk a little bit about some of the other characters. We've got Milk playing Ongsa, and then we've got Love playing Sun. I struggled a little bit with Sun? I think that it was good casting to have Love play Sun, because this idea of this girl who is so sweet and cute and gorgeous, this girl that Ongsa would absolutely fall in love with, I totally bought that from Love. But I feel like the story didn't expect much more of her? I truly enjoyed Love's performance when she was given stuff to do.

Ginny

Yeah, I agree. There were moments later in the series where we got to see her dig in and give us something more than this very sweet, kind, and pretty love interest character. I was like, “See, she can do it. Why didn't you give her more to do earlier?” It's hard to talk about her performance because they didn't give her very much to do and the writing was pretty shaky on her character, I think.

View—playing Aylin the cousin—I've always been a huge fan of View's acting. She's never not nailed a role as far as I've seen and she was also a delight in this.

Ciize, I thought was great. Also sadly underused, but where she was, she really shone. Even though she's smaller than everybody else, she is the alpha. She's the class president and the older sister. Very tired and keeping everybody in shape. Enjoyed her role a lot.

I don't have a lot to say about June.

Ben

Oop! [all laugh]

Ginny

Sorry, June!

Ben

What do you have to say about June? Well, she was there. [laughs] Damn.

NiNi

I find June as an actor quite accessible a lot of the time, but in this I wasn't sure what she was supposed to be? I feel like her characterization wasn't clear and because of that I didn't know where to land on her performance. I feel like I enjoyed it, but then also it felt, not wobbly exactly, but more confused.

Ginny

I think there was a similar issue as with Love's character, Sun, where they were both there to be the love interest for the awkward, weird character, and they weren't given anything else to do except to be sweet and accepting towards the awkward, weird character. That's a shame. I haven't seen June in anything else, so that's why I don't have anything to say about her.

Ben

Oh, did you not watch Dangerous Romance?

Ginny

I did not.

NiNi

Stop it right now.

Ben

Did you know?

NiNi

Stop it right [laughs] that a windmill—

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Ginny

Somehow, I do know that. [laughs]

NiNi

That's never gonna get old.

Ben

I will always make time for windmill jokes on this podcast.

[NiNi and Ginny laugh]

NiNi

June was also in 10 Years Ticket. View and June were together in 10 Years Ticket and that's why I think they were also cast for this, because their characters in 10 Years Ticket were shipped together and I completely understand why. Even though they were not an actual couple in 10 Years Ticket, the energy was there. So I understand how they ended up paired together. So it was very strange that they went from a really solid, I thought, pairing in 10 Years Ticket to something here that felt so, to me in the end, wobbly.

Ginny

Well, the problem is it was one-sided. Aylin was a great character and Luna, June's character, was just kind of there and they had a weird moment late in the series that kinda soured me on their whole story. But earlier they were very fun and good together. It was just that Luna was kind of just a pleasing backdrop to Aylin's whole situation.

Ben

I don't think the casting team knows why most of the cast is even in this show. ‘Cause you have a lot of really talented people who are doing the best with the direction that they're being given on the day that they were filming. But just like every one of these episodes, as we'll get into, felt like it was internally fine, but not part of what came before or after it in a really consistent or coherent way, I think Love and June suffer the most for that.

I think Love's actually really funny and really talented, but I don't think she knew what she was supposed to be doing for most of the show. She felt like she was lost in a lot of her scenes, it just does not feel very grounded. I don't think Love understood Sun, and I don't know that that's necessarily her fault either.

I think June is fine in terms of her ability to work with View but it was kind of a weird set of performances to watch.

Let me talk bout the rest of these fucking side characters. This show had t4t teacher yuri.

NiNi

The show had teachers in the school. Two of those teachers are being played by Golf and Godji. And these two teachers are supposed to be having a little side romance. I love a teacher side romance in a school show. However. Dot dot dot.

Ben

It's really frustrating because there was a real opportunity for these two women to sort of model what these younger characters could have. There's the whole hapless quality that Golf's character BamBam has that is probably meant to mirror what Ongsa has kinda going on. But I don't really know that they ever figured out something useful to do with them. It just feels like another beat happening. It doesn't feel like it's in sync with any sort of storytelling that's going on here.

Ginny

It felt to me like it was just there to be there. There's t4t, yuri, or transbians as my friend likes to say—

Ben

TRANSBIANS!

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

I love that! Transbians! That is awesome.

Ginny

[laughs] It felt like they're saying, “Oh, there's transbians, and that's enough. We don't have to actually make them have, like, a coherent story or more than a few cute moments here and there. I remember distinctly the episode where I realized what was supposed to be happening is this modeling thing. And it was in episode, like, 10 or something. It was so far into the series. But it just didn't come through early enough to have any kind of an impact.

I do like that they gave us those two teachers. I'm glad I would like us to get more transbians. [laughs] But I wish they'd done a better job.

00:21:27 23.5: Frustration with the Writing and Execution

NiNi

I feel like we're dancing around a little bit like where we think that some of the criticisms of the story are coming from, so let's dive into that. I feel like the beginning of the story, that first arc of Ongsa basically catfishing Sun, I felt like that arc was really strong. Like, I understood what was happening there. And then it gets squishy in the middle once it's obvious to Sun that Ongsa is this person that she's been talking to the whole time that she thought was a guy.

I feel like once that happens, the show starts getting interested in other things that had nothing to do with what had gone before. It wasn't following on from that first arc. And then somehow at the end they kinda try to dovetail back to that first arc in certain ways while also doing a third arc that doesn't really work?

It feels disjointed and disconnected. It feels like in each episode they knew what they wanted to accomplish, but the episodes themselves don't link together into a coherent story.

Ginny

For me, it felt like right up through the reveal that Ongsa was Earth, it felt coherent and I was with it, and at that point, I was feeling like this is a really solid show. And then it felt like they did about four or five episodes that, each one of them belonged to a different story. Each episode was a coherent story in itself, but did not feel very connected to what came before or what came afterward or much of the established characterization. And then at the end they did kind of tie some of the emotional impact of that big deception and reveal in, and Love got to actually do some good acting as Sun talked to Ongsa about her frustrations about how Ongsa kept holding back in this relationship. Which was great, but I was already so spun around like, what ride am I on anymore, because of the four or five filler feeling episodes, that it just really marred the impact.

Ben

I agree with you there, especially when it comes to Love getting to act later on. I find myself very frustrated with this show's unwillingness to let Sun be mad for more than half an episode. I need, like, a really good boil for a character. I need somebody to be irritated as fuck. I really like when somebody's just fucking pissed about some shit that somebody did. A lot of these shows, I have found from GMMTV, really struggle with that. They're constantly worried about selling ship. So they don't want the characters to be upset with each other for very long.

But it means that Sun doesn't really feel very human for me. She has such a super delayed reaction to Ongsa's big lie that I was just not exactly feeling her shift. I was just kinda like, okay, I guess. We shoulda done this a couple of weeks ago, but whatever, at least we're sorta getting it now.

I don't, also, understand—why is everyone here? What is the point of AJ's character, Ton? Why is Euro in this if he's not gonna score with one of the twins? Why is Ford here? What was the point of this little gay boy subplot that they put in this? I don't know what they were going for here.

NiNi

Going back to the Sun thing, I think that the idea they were trying to get across was that Sun was burying a lot of things that then came out in this well of frustration. Part of her character is to be this nice, sweet girl. And nice, sweet girls, they let things go. I feel like that's what they wanted to do with her character, but I don't feel like they wrote her character in that way. The character doesn't feel like a character who is burying things. The character feels like a character who has let things go.

And then with all the other stuff that was happening, because there was so much coming at us. There was this whole idea of Alpha being the big sister and the pressures that that put on her. There was this idea of the teachers feeling pressured to do the best that they could by these students. There was whatever was going on with AJ's character. I have no idea what that was about. And that little runner with AJ's character and Earn's character, Charoen and Ton, I still have no idea what any of that was about.

Ginny

No idea.

Ben

I don't like it! That's for damn sure.

[Ginny laughs]

NiNi

Did not like it. No clue what it was about. AJ, you need to call your agent because they're not doing well by you this year.

There's just all this churn happening in the middle of the story that has nothing to do with what happened before, nothing to do with what's happening after, all is coming out of the blue. But in another show would have really worked, like the Alpha stuff, the big sister stressed out stuff.

There is a way in which that could have worked, but they didn't really put any emphasis on that sisterly relationship between Ongsa, Aylin, and Alpha and how that might have been altered by the fact that Ongsa and Alpha have been living apart because Ongsa has been living in Phuket with their dad and Alpha has been living in Bangkok with their mom and now the family's back together. What does that look like, now having to take care of your little sister again when you had gotten unaccustomed to doing that? The whole fact that Alyn is their cousin who's living with them. Why is she living with them? What does this mean? How is she integrating into the family? None of that stuff is really touched on. It's a little bit touched on, but not really. It feels like they wanted to tackle Alpha as a character and all these stresses that she feels, but they're not actually showing us the stresses. So it feels like it comes out of nowhere.

And then everything that happens with Euro's character and Ford's character—just excise that from the show. Why is it even there? Why are they there? Why did they get out of bed and come to set? Somebody explain that to me.

Ben

Every single week I was like, “Here's how Euro can still win.”

[Ben and Ginny laugh]

Ginny

To be clear, because this confused me for a while, for Ben, Euro winning is not Euro getting a love interest. Euro winning is Euro being with AJ, specifically.

Ben

He just needs to kiss one of the twins and I'll be satisfied.

NiNi

We are big Euro lovers on this podcast. We think he's a great actor who has been overlooked and underutilized and we want to see him win in every way possible. Every way, including getting to kiss whoever he wants—boys, girls, whatever. Let him have it.

Ben

It always feels like it comes back to ship when it comes to GMMTV. If we wanted to do an Alpha focus episode, we need to open with her as the viewpoint character and narrator for an episode, and focus on Alpha and how she's seeing all of this going on with everything else she's juggling. Alpha is struggling with not being able to understand how to help her sister or her cousin when she can see they're both having big trouble, even as she's trying to make sure they get fed, go to school on time. And she's also trying to get ready for college and she's just freaking the fuck out, like this has the potential to be really good. But it just ends up not feeling that way.

It doesn't feel like they weren't planning this show it just feels maybe over planned? I'm not really certain. It's a weird experience watching the show and trying to talk about it. You feel like you're being tickled at the back of your head the whole time, trying to follow what the fuck is going on and where this shit is building to.

Ginny

It feels like they had a really powerful brainstorming phase and then did not carry on to the pruning and organizing. They were like, yeah, and Ciize’s character is gonna have this stress arc, and the teachers are gonna have a romance, and Euro’s gonna have a romance, and AJ is gonna be there.

NiNi

I'm just so mad at you saying AJ's gonna be there. Like, there’s nothing else going on with AJ. He’s just gonna be present.

Ginny

You cannot deny that he was there. He was in this show.

NiNi

He was very there. He was present.

Ben

It very much feels like there were some really powerful single statements they put on the board. Somebody wrote, like, “Big boys need love, too.” And everybody was like, “Hell yeah!” And then they didn't know what to do with it. [Ben laughs]

Ginny

Right, exactly! It's frustrating!

Ben

That is the adjective for this show. Frustrating.

NiNi

I feel like this show had some really clear-eyed ideas at the start, though, and that's the thing that really stresses me out about it. At the start, I feel like they're connecting Mawin's feelings of not feeling good enough and isolation to Ongsa's feelings of not feeling good enough. I feel like that was where they wanted to go with it, but in the end they don't actually go anywhere with it. And I feel like they thought that they were making that parallel all the way to the end with that one and I just didn't see it. There's just so much that the show feels like it really thought it was nailing, like all the Aylin stuff.

I really enjoyed that idea of Aylin feeling alienated from everybody and not because necessarily of any lack of love or anything from them, just feeling like she doesn't understand them and she needs them to work to be more understood by her rather than her necessarily having to do certain kinds of work to be more understood by them. That give and take. I feel like the show had that idea in the beginning, but then by the end, Luna is pushing Alyin to be more social. And I'm like, but I thought that we understood at the beginning when you were on the rooftop telling her you're not a human, you're a moon, that you understood what needed to happen here. But now you're pushing her to be more social? Like, why? It didn't feel like it connected.

Ginny

That frustrated me a lot about them because I was really loving what they were doing with Aylin and that kind of acceptance between her and Luna. There's a way to do a, “Now let me help you do some of the social things that you felt unable to do. Let me work with you.” But they simply did not frame it so that it felt like something Aylin wanted. So it comes off just feeling like Luna says, “Well, now we're a couple, so I'm gonna make you be normal.” That's what that sequence felt like to me and that's the thing that soured me on their story. I really hated that.

Ben

I think my favorite Aylin moment was her taking her own advice and then sending the little letter to Luna.

NiNi

I liked any moment where it felt like Aylin had a revelation by watching somebody else or the way that other people were interacting doing something, whether or not she agreed with it, and then internalizing that and deciding how she would tackle something like that and then doing it. I like to watch that thought process work with Aylin. But I think at some point, Aylin went from somebody that the narrative was trying to understand to somebody that the narrative was trying to change. And I did not like that.

I love View, I think View is a phenomenal actress. Towards the end of the story, to me, it felt a little bit like she had checked out from the character.

00:33:42 23.5: Final Arc and Ratings

Ben

I think that's the show. There were a lot of ideas that we were like, hey, this is a good idea. Ope, and it's gone.

NiNi

We didn't even talk about the final arc with Sun going abroad. The final arc of this show did not connect to anything else, and it tried to tell me things about Sun as a character that had not been laid out in any way before. I feel like they tried to give Love something to do, but they also didn't really trust her with it. And I don't know why, because Love is a good actress. The bits that we see from her where they actually give her something to do in the show, she really nails it on. So why don't they trust her?

The show just. it's kind of messy, that's not to say that I did not enjoy a great deal of it. The first major arc, maybe up to episode six or seven I feel like that is pretty solid.

Ben

An evergreen comment about Thai BL.

[Ben and Ginny laugh]

NiNi

Not just Thai BL lately, boo boo. It feels like all of it. We've had some of these problems in Japan lately, too. And I think we've been talking about Korea in this way, as well. Instead of just writing the story from beginning to end, I feel like these writers are getting very excited and trying to do a lot and trying to be like, “Ooh, what can we do that's new and interesting?” How about you just write the story from beginning to the end? That would be fantastic. Thailand is, yes, guilty, but it's been a consistent critique that we've been having across shows, across countries this year.

All of that said, let's rate this. Ginny, let's start with you. What did you rate 23.5?

Ginny

I gave it a 7.5. There were some things that I really did like a lot, so I didn't wanna take it too low, but it just really failed to cohere into a good overall show.

NiNi

Ben?

Ben

Before I give my rating. Normally when I'm giving you all ratings it's on the scale of, is this worth your time to watch? I will say politically, you should stream 23.5. It is very important that the juice makers know that we want GL. You don't have to watch it. You should stream it. This is not the show that I wanted, but we do need to support this one.

That being said, I gave the show a 6.5. I don't think this show is genuinely worth putting a shit ton of engagement into. This is not an experience I will be returning to. I don't think the show was very good. The positive things we felt on the front end about how well Milk captured young queer disaster, these are the good things to take with you. But please, please do better.

NiNi

I slot in right between the two of you. I gave the show a 7. I do think the front end of this was really good. I liked all of the performances, even the ones that I felt that weren't entirely up there, that was more a function of the writing not being there to support what the actor or actress could do. I enjoyed Milk as Ongsa so much, all the way from beginning to end. All that together for me adds up to a 7. It's good enough, but I have some serious reservations about some of the writing.

So, I think that makes me as the person in the middle the actual score for 23.5. So it gets a 7 from The Conversation by the law of averages. It is worth your time from the standpoint of being the first GMMTV GL. It's worth your time from the standpoint of just watching Milk kill this character. Just be aware that the writing falls apart right after the midpoint.

Ben

It may be GMMTV's first GL, but let's be clear, it's not GMMTV's first lesbians.

GMMTV has had lesbians since they started fucking around with gay people. There were lesbians in SOTUS. There were lesbians in Friendzone and Friendzone: Dangerous Area.

NiNi

There were lesbians in Dangerous Romance, technically.

Ben

Wait, what? Were there?

NiNI

We just talked about this!

Ben

Oh man, I blocked that out. [Ginny laughs] I forgot about the teacher plot! Because I was distracted about the knowledge that a windmill—

[all laugh]

NiNi

And, moving on.

00:38:42 Only Boo

NiNi

Alright, let's move on to the next show that we're gonna talk about, which is Only Boo.

Ben, what is Only Boo about?

Ben

How a gay boy inside of the bubble must remain trapped there, else he'd be forced to face the realities of the cruel homophobic world we live in.

Only Boo is a high school BL from GMMTV about a plucky kid whose mom is a member of the entertainment industry, who has huge aspirations of becoming an idol. He wants to become an idol so bad that he's bailing on classes and exams so he can go to auditions and his mom has had enough of that little kid's shit. So she sends his ass to the countryside to the school she went to so he can get his shit together and graduate from high school. Once he gets there, the very first thing this boy does is spend 500 goddamn dollars on a bike and has no fucking money and gets a—

[Ginny laughs]

NiNi

I just knew that you were going up—that you were gonna go there in the very beginning. [all laugh] It is actually an important plot point, people, but it is still ridiculous.

Ben

He has no money and basically gets adopted by the son of the restaurant near his hotel, who also serves food at their school. He's having a little bit of difficulty adjusting but ends up being very fond of the son of the restaurant owner and eventually befriends two other boys who also want to become idols. He is an incredibly fun character to watch, his name is Moo. He's clearly never once thought that people might not like him for being queer and is just so unabashedly joyous about what he loves in his life. He spends the bulk of the first two thirds of the show pursuing Kang, the boy who is helping him, before transitioning to Bangkok to become an idol.

Complications ensue! Book is there.

[all laugh]

NiNi

All right, Ben let me come to you first with this one. What were some of your initial thoughts coming into this show?

Ben

I gotta be honest, I had, like, my similar reaction to My School President on the front end. [laughs] I was like, I don't know who these boys are and I don't care. No new friends. [Ginny and NiNi laugh] It took me a while to warm up to Keen and Sea and that's not their fault. I'm just older and struggle with new actors.

But I actually ended up really liking Moo a lot really early. It was interesting watching, like, a modern queer kid. Modern queer youth is really fascinating to me. I've talked about this before, like nobody teaches queer people their history. They have to go find other queer people who teach them their history. And so you end up with this thing a lot where a lot of the baby gays, they know fucking nothing. And Moo is a good example of that in a lot of ways. And it feels like his family has sheltered him because they probably clocked who he was really early and they don't want to talk about that sort of stuff with him. So he feels no shame about being queer. He feels no, like, maybe I should dial it back because people don't like or understand that shit. He's like, nah, I like that boy. And I know he liked me, too!

I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed the performances with the sides ‘cause they got—what's his name—they paired him with Aun.

NiNi

Ashi?

Ben

Yeah. He's pretty solid. I actually like him. And I really thought he did a good job with gay yearning in the early parts of this show. I had a good time. I really also like the teachers in this. I was a teacher for about four years. And I thought that the way they presented the educators in the show was really well done. They were not cool at all, but they were really committed to their jobs. And they treated these kids with stern respect. They weren't like up these kids' asses all the time about unnecessary shit. But Moo was a half step away from being a delinquent for most of the show. And they were very big on applying foot to ass for that boy to make sure he got his shit together.

I really enjoyed a lot of the early parts of the show. I thought the baseline cast chemistry across the board was really solid. I thought the actors worked really well together in almost every scene—whether I thought those scenes were the right call from a writing standpoint is another thing, but everybody seemed to understand why they were there

NiNi

Ginny, how about you?

Ginny

I don't like fluff in general, I won't seek it out. So I went into this one like, well, we'll see how I feel. Because it was clearly a very cute, fluffy kind of premise and cutesy high energy vibe. And I ended up so charmed by especially Keen's performance as Moo, but really both of them together, Sea and Keen, worked really well together and were written really nicely.

We noted that it's the same writing team as Cooking Crush had. It did feel similar to Cooking Crush that we've started getting a little bit more sincerity and kindness from characters in how they have their kind of awkward first encounters and back and forth where they're trying to figure out, “Do I like you, do you like me, how do we navigate that?” There was so much sweetness and honesty in how they each approached each other and, like, genuine decency that I found really refreshing. So I was so charmed by this show, beyond my expectations, and really very into it for two thirds of its run.

NiNi

I love Moo so much as a character. I was not planning on watching this show. As with a lot of the shows that I've ended up watching lately, I have had to eat my words. I started watching it sort of on a whim. I didn't have anything else to do, and by the end of the first episode I was entirely charmed by Moo.

He's just so alive as a character. Keen plays him really, really well. That sense of, not Devil May Care exactly, but boundless optimism. There is no indication anywhere in his affect that he has ever heard the word no despite the fact that he hears it all the time. [laughs] And I find that truly delightful. I find characters who are able to get a no, keep it moving and be like, “I am going to turn this no into a yes, but you don't know that yet.” I like that kind of energy and optimism, particularly in a character who is so young, because that's the kind of character who should have that energy and optimism. The kind of character who hasn't had their heart broken before.

I enjoyed Moo and Kang and how the attraction, the interest was instantaneous and mutual. Because one of the things that I was scared of going into this show was that it would be all about Moo being pushy and harassing Kang, but it was clear from the very beginning that whatever was going on here was entirely a hundred percent mutual and they were both very into what was happening.

I enjoyed Aun and Ashi as Payos and Potae despite me having major reservations about their storyline, but we'll get into that. I enjoyed the first, two thirds of this show immensely. Everything that happened with the high school story. And when I say enjoyed, not just from a standpoint of delight, but enjoyed from the standpoint of this writing makes sense. And these characters make sense and everything that is happening here makes sense. And then, it stopped making sense but before we get there…

Is there a before we get there? What else are we talking about before we get to the turn?

Ginny

We've given Milk a lot of love and I do want to give her a bit more because she was also in this as a side character playing a completely different person from Ongsa, and also was just so fun to watch in every scene. Give Milk more work. I wanna see her in everything.

Ben

I will give Milk a compliment as a backhand to the other people. [Ginny laughs] I understand why Milk was here. Why was everyone else?

NiNi (50:46)

Oh my god. [laughs] I also liked Milk as Neth. I enjoyed her characterization. I liked the kind of friend that Neth was to Kang. I enjoyed everything about her right up until a weird thing that happened in the last episode. I think she was delightful.

Ben

I'll say this about the Neth character. Neth is always timed well for whenever Kang's caution makes him back off of Moo, and she's very good about making him confront his own feelings so that he can take a step forward. She's used extremely well for that so that the development of the boys’ romance never feels stilted

00:48:06 Only Boo: Popping the Bubble

NiNi

I guess now it's time to flip the script. Ginny, what did you not like here? How did the trajectory of the show go for you?

Ginny

So around episode 9, we switch from high school to where Moo is starting to get to live his idol dreams. And Kang has overcome some of his own stuckness that he was in before Moo showed up to go to art school in Bangkok. Very exciting.

Then… they made so many choices around the idol storyline. You know that there's gonna be an issue of him being an idol and dating. That's gotta be part of it with a show like this and with the story set up like this. And I was excited to see that. And every choice they made made me less and less excited. I was feeling real shaky by the end of episode 10. Episode 11, I thought was abysmal, I hated everything they did. And episode 12 was like, now I understand what you were trying to do, but you did it so badly. The final arc simply collapsed on itself.

NiNi

Some of the seeds of the final arc were sown early on, particularly the Shone character. That character from the very beginning just did not sit right, but the final arc actively offended me. The whole idol arc for me, it was not the wave. They should not have done it. And the reason that they should not have done it is that they weren't intending to do anything meaningful with it.

There are so many ways that you can do an idol story. It's not even that there had to be any one way that the story went. Idols and relationships, there are so many ways to do that story. The way that they chose was quite possibly the most offensive to me, first of all because it didn't make any sense, and then secondly in the end because it didn't matter and it didn't have anything to say about the idol system at all.

It happened. Moo was sad for a year. And then he got back together with Kang and he went and he said, “I don't wanna sign this stupid no dating anybody contract anymore.” And they just went, “Okay.” What was the point of the last four episodes if it was gonna be this easy? One thing I don't like is you spend a lot of narrative and thematic time on something that in the end is solved easily.

Ben, I know you've been holding back.

Ben

This show is the end of my ability to tolerate bubble shows from GMMTV. I have an appreciation for the bubble, because I grew up in queer cinema. A lot of queer creators are dealing with a lot of grief and a lot of pain, and this comes through in a lot of the art. And so, this fictional space where homophobia is not an issue and boys can just moon after each other and everyone giggles and tee-hees until they get together can be a nice emotional break from that reality. But the problem I'm having with the GMMTV shows at this point is they are not just staying in the bubble. They keep alluding to the real world where homophobia is a real problem and then intentionally not dealing with that.

This thing they did in the show where Moo doesn't even know, like, the word gay exists or whatever, but Kang feels like he's had to deal with some internalized homophobia. But no he hasn't, his mom's totally cool. But then why is he like this? There was this interesting bit with Kang when they moved to Bangkok, where they're gonna be sharing an apartment together and Moo wanted to be intimate with him, and you could feel like Kang wanted to be intimate with him too, but was shy or nervous about it and didn't want to proceed with it. When you've been in the closet for a long time, actually doing something with someone is awkward and kind of nerve wracking, particularly when they're so confident the way Moo is. And I don't feel like we ever really got any resolution on that. And it feels like the show was only having him be shy because they wanted to time certain things out.

That's one of the many gay frustrations I have with this show, where there's this interesting thing that feels very gay that the show then does absolutely nothing with, or tells us we were wrong about. Like, I sensed early on that some of Kang's reticence about being queer may have come from his mom. Apparently I misread that, whatever. It also bugs me that they won't tell Moo, like, you can't be an out idol, bro. But then fangirls are shipping Louis's character, Jang, with Pyos later on. Like, you can't have shipping culture and then not address where queer people slot into that.

The very worst gay offense that this show created was having Moo bond with Payos, particularly over clocking Payos's crush on Potae, and then later on, for whatever reason, Moo decides to make Potae his confidant when he has to go into the closet, and not Payos. I don't understand how Payos, being the first other queer he bonded with that he wasn't trying to fuck, is not the person that he trusts with something important. And this was particularly hurtful for me, because Moo lets Payos think that he's gotten over Kang and has broken up with him after this huge “I'm gonna be with this man” arc. Like how lonely must have Payos felt at that moment? He was already struggling with his feelings that he might never get to be with Potae and then Moo, the strongest gay he knows, is like, I guess I gotta get over Kang, ‘cause you know, we gotta make that paper, bro. It is what it is.

I'm just so disappointed in that. And then there's the whole shit with Shone. Why make your cousin's boyfriend break up with him and then hit on your cousin's boyfriend that you made break up with him that you know he still loves? I was so disgusted with those last two things that it has forever soured the show for me.

NiNi

The Shone stuff for me was particularly heinous. I am an elder sibling and I'm also a big cousin. To betray that big cousin trust, I couldn't fathom doing that to any of my little cousins.

I felt like Shone had no rights at that point. It's one thing when he initially develops this crush on Kang. He didn't know. Fine. Once you know, how do you do that? To me that breaks all the codes, you just don't do that, that's not a thing that you do. It's wicked, it's cruel, it's mean, absolutely unacceptable. And that was where the show really truly offended me.

The Potae and Payos stuff, Payos somehow going from being Moo's confidant to being on the outside while Potae gets to be on the inside, that didn't sit right with me, but the Shone stuff was really just egregious. I could not stomach it.

Ben

And they made Moo apologize to him. I will never forgive them for that. I will never forgive them for making Moo apologize.

Ginny

What the fuck was that with Shone? They had this moment earlier where I thought, okay, this is how we're resolving this. We're leading up to a big issue, but then we're gonna have them settle it by being kind and decent to each other and this cousin loyalty thing. Well, it's a little weird that you felt the need to do that at all, but okay, I like where we landed on this. And then they just have him so fully backstab.

Purely from a narrative construction perspective, what we said we all love about Moo is he's so confident and so sure that, kind of, the world can't touch him. He's gonna get what he wants, and he makes it work and he makes it charming. He's very lovable in this kind of bullheaded determination mixed with sunny optimism. There were ways to then have him have a rude awakening that would have made sense in the story. Instead, what they did was they have, like, three people talk to Kang behind his back, and guilt trip the kid into breaking up with his boyfriend, And then do the no contact one year time skip, because God forbid we ever do anything different.

If you want to give me an idol story and talk to me about the problems of idols dating, what if you have them actually deal with any of those challenges? I would not have minded if the story was leading to the company saying, “You know what, this is a bad outdated rule for XYZ reasons. We've seen this”. I wouldn't have even minded if it took them a year to get there. That's fine. But the way they did it was just much too easy, no conflict. Moo was just like, “I'm gonna talk to them.” And then he talked to them and it turned out they were already going to do the right thing. And I'm like, why? Make it interesting. Give me a story about that. Don't just do weird convoluted chasing and pining and this cousin backstabbing situation for an episode and a half. It didn't work on any level.

00:58:42 Only Boo: If You're Gonna Do An Idol Story, Commit

Ben

This is the umpteenth GMMTV show where the poor kid has to upend their whole life for the benefit of the rich kid. And I'm over it. Kang must suffer so that Moo can succeed at being an idol. This is a very weird, specific thematic beat that this company's shows always go to. And I really, truly do not like it.

NiNi

That was part of the issue, but the thing that really stuck out for me is that this is GMMTV that did this show. GMMTV is an idol house. That's what they are. Let's just be real. They create idols, they teach them to act and sing and dance and they put them out there in concerts and they sell fan meetings and they sell merch. They are an idol house. And what this show feels like, is that they did not want to catch any blowback from being an idol house. They were in a unique position as an idol house to have something, anything to say about this system. Whether they were trying to defend the system, whether they wanted to upend the system, whether they wanted to make a statement of any kind about the system that they participate in.

And they did none of those things. They gave some wishy-washy idea of, yes, we know that this is maybe probably bad, but we don't do this. It feels so disingenuous. It feels like they are trying to be like, oh, don't look over here. I'm not saying that they needed to take a moralistic position on this. I'm just saying that they needed to take a position, period. They could have taken a cynical position on this. They could have been like, this is where the money is. They could have taken an apologetic position on this, they could have taken so many different directions on a story like this depending on what it is that they wanted to say. And I might have been pissed with some of those directions but I, in the end would have been like, okay that's their position.

Ginny

I will give, like, half a thimble full of credit for the end line being, “Oh yeah, this idols can't date rule is bullshit and we should get rid of it.” I was gonna feel even madder if it ended with Moo ending his contract because you can't be an idol and be in love and the story being fine with that.

At least they gave a momentary lip service to the, yeah, we don't do that. The other half of my half a thimble full of credit is that we have seen one of their BL actors go very public with a girlfriend and it seems like he was supported by the company in that. So, okay, presumably a little bit of their money is where the tiniest whisper of their mouth is, I guess. But yes, they should have said something. They're in the position to really tell a story about this. They should have said something. If they're gonna do this. they should have done it.

Ben

Bestie, I respect your ability to give them half of a thimble of credit, I will be giving them nothing because they made the show. They put this in front of us. They're the ones who spent the whole fuckin’ show making us question whether or not Moo as he is could be an idol. I'm not giving them credit.

NiNi

I feel like I slot in somewhere in the middle. More maybe towards the side of being pissed and it really comes down to the whole Payos story. After the one year time skip he's being shipped with Jang. At the end of the story there's a Potae/Payos ship that they're talking about. And at no point is there any indication that Moo is suffering because this is not quote unquote allowed but somehow whatever is going on with the Payos stuff, we're gonna lean into that. For me, if you make a statement on that, then yes, I give you the credit, but you just put it there and you don't say anything about it.

Television as a medium exists at the nexus of art and commerce. Television doesn't exist without commerce. It's not like film, where people do it for the love. Television doesn't get put out if there's no money in it. Let's just be real about what TV is. The fact that this show is so mealy-mouthed about saying that, about accepting that that is where it sits. I just don't like it. The art commerce thing for me, I sit with it, I'm usually fine. I can usually look at a show and be like, okay, I can see where they did this for the love and where they did this for the money.

It's why I don't have a whole bunch of trouble with the branded pairing thing. My trouble with the branded pairing thing is always when it doesn't align with what the show is trying to do. But the whole act of casting branded pairs in things, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And I prefer to look at the branded pair thing, as, okay, well, in which way did this pair work for this set of rules and in which way did it not? As opposed to being pissed at the branded pair thing, because that's just, the price of the ride.

But this one, it just bugged me, man. I felt like if you're gonna be so self-referential about the industry that you are in, that you have to make some kind of statement on it [laughs] one way or another. This show just didn't, and I didn't like that.

01:05:06 Only Boo: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

As I said in the Japan episode, telling stories about queer experiences in a respectful way is non-negotiable for me in a genre profiting off of people's titillation about seeing boys kiss each other. I don't think that's an unreasonable position to hold. So, as much as I love Moo as a character, and as much as I liked all of the bits we got to talk about early on in this show, this show fails as a queer narrative in a way that is unsettling, often annoying, and in some ways kinda harmful. And I can't pretend like that's okay.

NiNi

Let's rate. Ginny, what are we rating Only Boo?

Ginny

Oh, I think I'm coming in a lot higher than you two, probably. I did really like the first two thirds and I think I was not as offended by the end. So I gave it a 7.

NiNi

Ben, how about you?

Ben

One of the downsides of me having basically a bad time with global BL since Cooking Crush and Cherry Magic Thailand ended, is I'm now starting to weight endings higher. This is not fun. It is making the ability to watch these shows week to week with other people unfun. The shows start fun and we're like, hell yeah, this is a fun show. And then by around episode eight or nine, we're in various stages of grief [NiNi laughs] and they don't finish strong. We don't get to feel triumphant at the end. We don't get to lift that fish out of the stream and be like, we got dinner tonight, boys! And I'm over pretending that the idea of the show is better than the reality of the show.

As a result, Only Boo gets a 5.

NiNi

I am, I think once again, splitting the difference. Because I did have a good time for the first eight episodes of this show. I was offended by the last two. A bad ending can ruin a show for me. It does not always, but it can ruin a show for me.

But throughout the entire show from end to end, I have to say, that throughline of Moo and Kang and their relationship. I just believed them so much. Even when the show is crashing down around them, they are somehow holding together that love story, and making me believe in it.

I want to give it a 6 but I think I'm going to end up at a 6.5 just for that. Moo and Kang and the Moo and Kang love story and Sea and Keen as Moo and Kang are so good.

So what does that leave us? 5, 6.5, 7, what does that one go to? Like a 6.25. I don't know. What is maths?

Ginny

We can call it a 6.

NiNi

I'm a whole engineer and I can't do maths.

Ben

We can call it a 6. I'm calling producer privilege. This show pissed me off for gay reasons and I'm not gonna pretend that the romance makes up for pissing me off for gay reasons.

NiNi

Okay, it's a 6 from The Conversation.

01:08:45 Outro: High School Blues

NiNi

I wanna talk a little bit about these two shows just from the sense of both of them as high school shows, but also in the sense of them being shows that started out well and did pretty well through maybe half to two thirds of their run and then faltered at the end. When it comes to high school shows, as we have indicated before, we don't actually get as many of them as we think from Thailand.

Ginny

For me, the high school of it all is not the core of either show's problem. That's sort of incidental to just not having a clear understanding of the story it was telling. Did some very charming work with some very charming actors and scenes, but simply got lost at some point along the way.

NiNi

My overall thinking about these two shows and where they landed for me is I don't know what Thailand wanted to say about high school in these shows or if they wanted to say anything about high school or if high school is just an incidental setting for these shows. What do they want to say about people on the cusp of growing up? What is it they want to say about the high school experience? I feel like that's not something that either of these shows was particularly interested in. Maybe to some extent more 23.5 was interested in it than Only Boo.

Ginny

23.5 was a high school show and I think one of the big ideas that they wrote on the board was some stuff about high school social dynamics that they occasionally highlighted and then completely forgot about for episodes at a time.

Ben

The big problem both of these shows have is they don't understand that the crux of a high school show is about growing up, and about how you can't go backwards anymore. The kids have to recognize that properly for the first time. I think both shows are trying to get there, but I think in almost every case, they get lost in the shipping of it all and not in the story that they need to tell.

Almost all of these characters have broken arcs about growing up. Their energy is not focused on the proper culmination of the individual character arcs. They're focused exclusively on the romance arcs, and they believe that the resolution of these romance arcs is a good substitute for the resolution of their individual arcs. And it really frustrates me watching both of these shows not really landing on a good place about what it means to grow up. Which is for me, what is at the core of high school stories. Let's go back to The Breakfast Club and start over.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

Not The Breakfast Club!

Ben

I do not feel positively about either of these shows and I'm not righteous about it. I am disappointed and really frustrated. This is not a great place to be with the genre.

I don't know what's going on, everybody. I think we all need to take a good six month sabbatical. Let's have a beach episode as a whole genre, go plant some trees [NiNi laughs] and go to the beach and hang out for a bit and then come back and work on some stuff. We all need a break. It feels like people are stretched really thin. I don't know what's going on, but this is feeling like a global issue at this point. The initial ideas are good, but the execution is not. And then it ends on a flat note or an unsatisfying note.

I am a critic. Talking about stuff with people is more than half of the fun. Watching the show alone by myself is not the bulk of my enjoyment with a piece of media. My real fun with a piece of media is when I finish something and I'm gonna go annoy the nearest person to me. It's like, “Hey, it's time for you to watch something.” [NiNi laughs] That's what's fun for me.

These shows are not giving me that outlet. I don't get to share that with people who aren't BL fanatics like us. Sharing art with people is how I connect to people. And I can't share most of our shows [laughs] with normies because they're like, “This is bad. Why did you show this to me?”

NiNi

See, that's the difference between you and me. I gave up on the normies a long time ago.

Ben

I really want the people who watch Young Royals and Heartstopper to connect with BL. So when they finish those shows, be like, what else is there? I'm like, we got the list, girl. It's right here! But like, that list is not growing this year! We need fresh content for the list!

NiNi

I mean, there is quite a backlog, so I feel like, if they need to take a break, I will understand.

Ben

They should take a break. It is summer. Everybody go to a beach. Get some sun.Go have an encounter with a hot stranger. Get your mind right, and then come back.

We gotta take a break ‘cause this is not working. I haven't been this grumpy since 2018.

NiNi

You are grumpy right now, bestie.

Ben

It's not good! We can split hairs and talk about what these shows did good or bad, but in the end, are we saying people should go out and watch these shows earnestly? No. Okay.

NiNi

We gotta wrap this up. So, that is going to do it for us on the GMMTV School Days episode. We out. Say bye to the people, Ginny.

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

#podcast #lgbtq #23.5 degrees #23.5 the series #only boo!#only boo the series #only boo #thai bl #thai gl #bl series #gl series #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #on art #summer series #summer 2024 #Spotify

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