#-as far as non-xtian beliefs go

[satanfemme]

is it bad if i like angels just bc i think theyre interesting and i like learning about them. i cant really tell if im part of the problem ur ranting about or not 'v';

oh no ur probably fine, dw. I love angelology too, and there's nothing (inherently) wrong with that. the problem I'm complaining about boils down to this:

1. xtian/culturally-xtian people who appropriate from other belief systems, and claim this appropriation is somehow truthful to xtianity (/their culture) when it simply isn't. such as the people who misrepresent what ophanim are (a primarily jewish belief if I understand correctly, and definitely not widely worshiped by xtians. the xtian version is the "thrones" if ur wondering - which are often not even portrayed as wheels), and who claim this misrepresentation is, instead, "biblically accurate" (read: accurate to xtianity) somehow. this point is a genuinely serious problem obviously, as it's people appropriating and misunderstand a culture that isn't theirs. though, this is just a quick summary of the issue and there are many jewish people online who have spoken at greater length about this better than I could (as I'm culturally-xtian too). I would rather you seek out those discussions if you'd like to learn more of this side of it.

and 2. my more petty & personal complaint: people who very clearly don't actually know what the fuck they're talking about are claiming to be an expert on xtian mythos and go so far as to correct "misinformation" when.... that "misinfo" is actually the truth of the matter? "did you know angels don't really look like humans in xtian scripture" is literally an incorrect statement. fully. like I get that a lot of culturally-xtian people have not been to church in a very long time but I promise you actual xtians do, in fact, worship winged humans as their angels, and EVERY rank on the xtian angel hierarchy is generally depicted as humanoid. even the "weird" ones that are "technically" something else, like the cherubim, are depicted as humanoid by western xtianity. seriously, when is the last time u saw a cherub in xtian art look like anything other than a winged baby. so it's annoying to me when know-it-alls online act like they've uncovered some Deep Truth about xtianity when they're actually just wrong. besides, even if xtian scripture said otherwise, you could not discount actually practiced xtian beliefs because of some fun fact you learned off social media. that's not how religion works. and tbh it's strange to me that so many ex-xtians think that lying about this kind of stuff is in any way going to "reclaim" xtianity for them, whatever that means.

closing thoughts: my gen recommendation, personally, is that if you (general "you") are really desperate for "weird" or "reclaimative" shit wrt xtian theology, get into xtian-based demonology or read fucking paradise lost or something instead. even tho the xtian angels are more-or-less restricted to humanoid forms (sorry to disappoint!), fallen angels aren't, and do actually tend to look surreal, like those angels you're attempting to depict with ur "biblically accurate" shit. just look at marchosias for example (<- a personal fav). he is literally a DOG who has wings and breathes fire??? u are not going to get something that exciting from a church. also, as an added bonus, maybe if more people actually read paradise lost, less of you would be calling it a "fanfiction" to win yourself internet points, just a thought <3 end of rant.

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

Religious people always target children and people who are dealing with a bad situation or a traumatic experience. Impressionable beings that are easy to shape the way you want it and people who are desperate for anything that makes them feel better about their situation. gee, ain't that convenient.

Yes, it’s indoctrination and it’s predatory. It’s manipulation and betrayal of the trust impressionable children place in the grown ups they depend upon, and vulnerable people place in others when asking for help. It’s an admission that they couldn’t teach or present this nonsense to someone who is mature, clear-minded and reasonable, and only someone impressionable, vulnerable or in distress could be convinced of it.

Imagine trying to convince a 13 year old who has never heard of Santa that Santa Claus is real.

It’s instilled in children with fear, both in the god-creature and in the idea of questioning what they have been told. Simply having doubts puts them at risk with their god.

“I read the section about the historicity of Jesus, and I noticed half the stuff he used didn’t add up to affirmations of Christ’s existence. But I didn’t research anything more because I’m scared. Scared out of my mind that there’s a possibility that I’m wrong, and I feel like a heretic just thinking about it.” - Matt Dillahunty reading a letter from a 15 year old having doubts about their beliefs.

in almost every story I’ve ever heard of someone who genuinely, truly believed - as opposed to someone like me who was never convinced - a true believer, a true Xtian, a true Muslim or whatever, their de-conversion included a period of desperately trying to find a reason, any reason, to believe, out of fear their instincts, their reasoning, their logic could be wrong and they’d be putting themselves in peril. These are people who no longer think their god is real, but have had it so ingrained into them that they’re still terrified of this monstrous god-creature and the hell it rules over.

There’s a name for this: Religious Trauma Syndrome. And it’s exactly because this indoctrination, this false idea of the way the world works, this self-hate, this blind obedience to un-earned authority is so pervasive and complete.

https://religion-is-a-mental-illness.tumblr.com/tagged/Religious-Trauma-Syndrome

They’re taught to blindly obey and to not think for themselves.

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

While “Islam” literally means submission, subservience. In both case, this teaches believers that they’re worthless, that they’re broken and need a god to make them whole and tell them what to do - of course, only through that god’s self-appointed prophets.

Their own scripture teaches them that non-believers are to be killed...

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Quran 4.89

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Psalm 2:8-9

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Quran 9:5

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

... or shunned...

2 John 9-10

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Quran 4:144

O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?

2 Timothy 2:16

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Quran 3:28

Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

... because they’re evil.

Hebrews 3:12

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Quran 9:123

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

Imagine growing up surrounded by this shit, knowing that if you use your own mind and don’t follow blindly, the religious dogma around you instructs others to kill or shun you, and that you’re evil - literally the “enemy” - for not believing in superstition and literal magic.

And as you mentioned, the predatory nature of religion doesn’t end with childhood indoctrination. It’s about finding vulnerable, desperate people and recruiting them. Like timeshare salespeople who are never not selling.

A friend of mine I hadn’t seen in a while was always free-spirited, rambunctious and irreverent. A lot of people thought she was a “bit much” but that was part of her charm. Things changed. She had two kids, both on the autism spectrum, and an ex who we now recognize is also on it but refuses to get tested. In search of free/cheap childcare, she turned to the local church. Next thing, she’s been sucked into it with their meetings and gatherings and such. Talking about god and Jesus and the bible all the time, to the point where her friends had to implement a rule where religion is never talked about by anyone, just to preserve the friendship. There really is no true altruism in religion, only an agenda, an angle to exploit. She recently left it though. The church said some stuff about how the family deserved it and that god made it happen to bring them closer to him. Clearly this was an attempt to foster further dependence upon the cult, but instead it brought her to her senses, she said WTF and told them to fuck off.

There really is nothing off limits to them, no depths that they won’t go to in order to recruit. Absolutely shameless. Don’t forget - these are the people who demonized gay people, that the evil, nasty gays want to groom your kids and “convert” them, because they’re sick and predatory. There’s a saying: accuse the other side of that which you are guilty. Nobody is born religious. It’s the religious who want to get you.

(Sorry, this question has been in my Inbox for quite a while.)

[bubbelpop2]

Did some research on Lilith!

 Now, if you’re Jewish, or especially a jewitch, you’re immediately cringing. That’s okay, you can keep scrolling, you likely already know these things.

Okay witchy bitches listen up! 

There are a lot of different Lilliths. The one your worshiping is most likely judaic in origin, and although you may respect and love her as a symbol of feminism very much, she’s not Wiccan in origin. Please read this whole post. I’m not attacking you, I just want you to know these things, it’s very important to Lilith that you do.

In some Jewish folklore, Lilith appears as Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same clay as Adam Lilith then left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden, and picked up a new man (angel) : samael. (in christian culture, not sure about jewish culture, samael is the name god originally gave to lucifer to represent his love for him, before he rebelled)

Interpretations of Lilith found in later Jewish materials are plentiful, but little information has survived relating to the Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian and Babylonian view of this class of demons. Meaning: the exact origins and first written appearances of Lilith are not very bounteous, and their exact place where they came from is generally in the area where Judaism thrived, but that’s all most people know.

Now that you know that she’s a figure that is no doubt jewish in origin: what is she, exactly? Well, now that i’ve got your curiosity peaked, check out this website that contains a lot of accurate information on judaism. This link specifically says what the actual story of Lilith is. 

But, if you don’t want to read it (,and you really should read it, me summarizing it leaves out probably a lot of important citations and details) , this is how I understood the article: Lilith wanted to break up with Adam, The Big G didn’t want her to and sent three angels to take her back to Adam, and they three threatened her like “If you don’t come back, 100 of your children will die each day.” and she was like “You know what? Okay, not just 100 babies, I’ll kill babies myself if it makes you leave me alone. AND fuck their dads. I’m not going back to Adam and you can’t make me.” and never came back. Which many scholars believe to be a myth made to explain the mass amounts of miscarriages back in the day. 

What she is: a jewish demon. she’s not a goddess. Judaism is a closed religion, and by worshiping her as a goddess (which she is not) you’re bastardizing and tainting the image of a demon in judaism. That being said, since it’s a closed religion, whether or not a jewish person can worship her as a demon, and not a goddess, is up to them. And you, especially if you’re not Jewish, cannot participate, even if you’re worshipping her as a demon and not a goddess. You can, however, like and respect the fact that she’s an image of not suppressing your femininity for anybody, and that you’re beautiful for yourself, not men. You can like that message, and you can also support jewitches who do worship her, but you cannot participate, it’s against the jewish religion for non-jewish people to participate.

My opinion on witches worshiping Lilith? Don’t. She wasn’t your story, and you can’t steal a figure from judaism and deny she was from it in the first place. Yes, you can respect her as a figure of women not bowing to anybody and not owing their bodies to people, but, no, most of the things you’ve heard about her from other witches are likely not true. Get your info from jewish sources before you claim she’s not jewish. There’s a far better explanation by someone who’s actually jewish right here. It states:

Lilith is a Jewish demon, or sheyd, that comes from Midrash. Midrash is biblical exegesis created by Jewish people. Jewish texts like this aren’t scriptures that Jews and other religions share, so when Christians decided in their demonology to include Lilith, it was totally removed from context and a bastardization - because we don’t have a Lucifer who’s a devil ruling hell, type thing. 

So when I see people say “I worship the goddess Lilith, first wife of Adam”. What that tells me is 1) you do not understand in that mythological context of Midrash, she’s not a goddess - at all. So you didn’t care to understand her background. 2) You didn’t realize Judaism is a closed practice and culture, and 3) You don’t care about Jews because you see all monotheists as “some sort of xtian” which is so far from the truth. Jews are not Christians, we do not have that same baggage, and Judaism has been called a “heathen religion” just as much as pagans have.

"So what do I do instead?” 

Excellent question! A lot of witches worship a lot of different gods from different religions. Try greek gods, roman gods, nordic gods, and (respectfully, please do not honor them incorrectly,) hindu gods. The nature of most witches, is to believe in most, if not all deities, and invite them over a form of spiritual tea party, almost. Offering the proper gods their proper sacrifices (mead and bread for nordic gods, wine for roman/greek, ect) and doing proper research into how these gods work and how they want to be interacted with. Witches that do this often call themselves wiccan, or neopagan, or heretics. 

But there are also a variety of athiest witches as well! Just because you’re a witch does NOT mean you’re wiccan, or that every witch has one single set of beliefs.

 Me? I’m a moon witch! I believe that the moon is a spiritual entity capable of intelligent and loving communication with human kind. Not just the hunk of rock.

“I.. didn’t know that I could hurt people like that. How do I make it better now? I may as well continue, I’m already guilty!” 

Hey guys? It’s okay. Apologize to Lilith, she’ll forgive you. She understands that people make mistakes. Respect her and her origins by apologizing to her personally, understanding that she’s not a goddess, and ask her for forgiveness. She understands, it’s okay.

[jeanjauthor]

Lilith saintcrow's book The Devil's right hand page 243, the author goes on it first about how Jewish kabbalists taught certain types of witches certain Traditions which okay I get, but then she goes on to say how after some Jews who supported a messianic xtian fanatic were killed and the David line was proven to be extinct (I have no idea how this could be done, and even if if was proven we would adapt) all the Jews lost their faith and most of their culture. 1/x

Ah, okay. (I thought it was one of my books, and I was confused.)  So...what would I do when an author tosses in a line like that?  Something that is just so mangled, it breaks my willing suspension of disbelief and catapults me out of the story?

Well...if I loved the rest of the story, but didn’t like that one part?  I’d rewrite it in fanfiction.  In fact, I did rewrite the parts of stories I did not like, fixing them in fanfiction.  That’s literally why I started writing in the first place. I didn’t like the ending of a story I’d read. I thought I could write something better, so I tried...and it was crap, and I knew it was crap...but I had fun doing it. 

So I kept doing it, and kept doing it, and eventually developed my own stories and my own ideas.  (Half because I realized nobody was writing some of the stories I really wanted to read, but half just out of the joy & creativity of it.)

On the other hand, if I didn’t like that story?  Probably never reread it again, and move on...and maybe include something in one of my other stories that “fixed” the giant gaping plot-hole said singular thing created, by ensuring it got fixed in whatever vaguely similar moment in a story I was writing.  But again, my solution is to write things out.

If you’re not a writer...you can still rewrite it in your head, in your imagination.  And then move on.  If that doesn’t help, then at least try to remember this:  Writers are not gods.  We are not infallible.  We make mistakes.  We write dumb-ass things in the midst of fantastic things.  Breathe deep, let it go, move along.

For the record...I agree with you.  No group is ever going to be monolithic.  Not without an overwhelming, individuality-suppressing hive-mind like the Borg from Star Trek...and even then, some could still retain touches of individuality (the Borg Queen, 7 of 9 and that trio she tampered with, etc, etc, etc).

Despite having over 90% of their bloodlines and their cultural heritages wiped out by diseases, superior weaponry wielded by their opponents, and deliberate “re-education” efforts by stealing away children and raising them white...the indigenous peoples of North America (First Nations Peoples of Canada, Native Americans of the U.S., Indigenous Tribes of Mexico) still retain some of their multiple heritages.  They retain some of their cultural uniqueness, their viewpoints.

Another excellent example are the Amish.  Not all Amish communities are the same; their ordnung (rules & regs) vary from community to community.  Some think that they should obey traffic laws with their buggies, including using reflectors and Warning: Slow Vehicle triangles; others forbid even that.  Some allow women to wear modest calico patterns, others refuse to have anything but solid colors.  Some think it’s acceptable to ride around in cars. Others refuse flat-out. 

Some think it’s acceptable to create items that can be sold to the non-Amish, specifically touristy things, because it ensures they can afford to pay for accidents and emergencies and farm equipment and so forth...while others think that doing so is wrong, a point of pride that should be avoided in a culture that values humility.  Yet they are all Amish.  (Amish and Mennonites are not the same thing, however; it’s like confusing Jews with Messianic Jews; they may seem the same to ignorant outsiders, but really are not.)

Beliefs will persist...and beliefs will vary.  You kinda have to wipe out a race or a group or a nation to the last few people standing, deny them the chance to teach and raise children, and only then would a culture completely die.  But even in the most totalitarian regime, so long as they have kids or adopt kids, and have a few moments of privacy in which to tell the next generation about the past?  Most will continue to teach and to preach, because it’s where they come from.

(The flip side of this, alas, is where inherited racism & bigotry come from, too. Taught from parents to children, grandparents to children, down through the ages.  It may go “underground” but it’ll continue to flourish like black mold behind the baseboards. *headdesk, sigh*)

Sure, there will be some who are so traumatized by the brainwashing and punishments of “residential schooling” (see the shame-filled actions of the Canadian govt. against indigenous peoples for far too many decades) that they will never even try to learn about their culture or their language from those who still remember it...but once you get past a certain base population size (and the will of the individuals involved to survive such oppression and destruction)...they will teach their ways to any of the next generation who may care to learn.

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

(as a response to the last thing I said) listen, you’re intelligent and that’s pretty obvious. I’d like to know more about you. I used to not believe in God either and I thought that everyone that did was ignorant and just downright stupid. I respect what you believe, because it definitely makes sense and I used to believe the same thing. I’m not going to go off and list the reasons I believe what I do because you would just find a way to bash them. I think you’re very interesting nonetheless

And yet you said you were laughing your ass off, cracking up. That’s a really weird way to show this “respect what you believe” thing. Particularly as a purported former atheist who supposedly should understand an atheist perspective. Quite frankly, I don’t really believe you.

And let me be clear here: I don’t respect what you believe, as best as I so far understand it from your comments and blog. It’s superstitious, ridiculous, unsupported and harmful. I respect that you hold it and are entitled to hold it. But I only respect ideas in as much as they accurately model the world around us, have good supporting evidence and justification. Otherwise you’re obliged to “respect” all sorts of horrible ideas by virtue of someone dearly holding them.

You want to know more about me, but you don’t want to explain yourself. That sounds like a really one-sided conversation, one which doesn’t really benefit me in any way. That’s fine if you don’t want to explain, and your prerogative… but that prerogative stops when you open your mouth about holding those beliefs. The thing is that’s the only bit I actually care about - what are your reasons and evidence, and are they valid and justified, or fallacious and unreasonable? If that’s off the table, then we really have nothing to talk about.

1 Peter 3:15-16

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Of course I would analyse and evaluate them (”bash”, to someone unwilling to adjust their beliefs to reflect the supportability and reasonableness of those beliefs). They’re claims. If you’re going to present them, I’m going to evaluate them. That is what we do with claims, regardless of whether they’re supernatural superstitions or an accusation of infidelity or a claim of superior car performance. We evaluate claims as a matter of course, throughout every day. Being religious claims doesn’t change that in any way. They hold as much immunity from analysis as “Big Mac is better than Whopper,” “this change would make our customers happier” or “unicorns exist.” If that troubles you, then you can simply keep your beliefs to yourself and the problem goes away.

I have never ever encountered someone who genuinely had a disbelief in god claims, a lack of belief in any god’s existence, who subsequently became a Xtian (or anything else). Upon unpacking it, it’s always been someone who grew up in that religion, may have been or became uninvolved (latent/lapsed/disillusioned religious, where “don’t believe in” is equivalent to “no longer trust”), then either of two things happened.

they had some kind of “experience” they couldn’t explain… which they then claim is itself an explanation or proof. e.g. almost drowning and seeing Jesus. Who, of course, is the whitest, most English-speaking Jesus of their childhood.

they went through some bad times and religion swept in and recruited them while they were vulnerable. e.g. AA or free childcare services, or reassurance through flowery stories (or outright deceit): “The Secrets of the Christian Right’s Recruiting Tactics“

Am I close?

To which I would wonder how you ruled out all the non-supernatural explanations for your experience, including those you were not familiar with, and how you determined which “god” was the “true” one, amidst the utter coincidence that it turns out, I’m willing to bet, to be the same version of the same god you were raised with. Out of the thousands. And if you were an “atheist” who had actively concluded that these god-claims were unsupportable - as opposed to a lapsed Xtian who had become disillusioned with your god - how you were able to resolve all those logical and evidential problems that brought you to that conclusion in the first place.

I’m not saying such a person couldn’t exist, but if they did, we might finally have discovered that unicorn.

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

Do you believe that people with high iq can still be religious? (Albeit loosely?) I gotta admit though, there are a lot of loopholes sometimes in religion. :/// Not all the Bible is good y'all and anyone who actually believes that needs to look at it from a modern perspective

Firstly, we have to acknowledge that a high IQ doesn’t actually make you intelligent on a practical level. As any random episode of The Big Bang Theory will demonstrate.

To me, it seems obvious that our comprehensive knowledge of speciation cuts the knees out from the Garden story and therefore Original Sin, the Fall, the Flood and ultimately the entire purpose of the Jesus marionette/blood sacrifice that begat the Xtian religion in the first place. What underpins “Jesus” is a number of specific claims that necessarily cannot be metaphorical, without making Jesus or what he supposedly died for also metaphorical. Claims that have no supporting evidence, and indeed for which there is evidence to the contrary. But that’s me.

I have read how Francis Collins says he resolves the problems in his mythology with his apparently quite comprehensive understanding of the natural world around him, and specifically genetics.

If God is real, and I believe he is, then he is outside of nature. He is, therefore, not limited by the laws of nature in the way that we are.

The quote above is unfalsifiable (i.e. non-scientific and cannot even be evaluated), and offers no explanation of how he came to the conclusion such an undetectable entity exists or why it’s reasonable to think so. To be honest, I have difficulty understanding why someone would be so rational, skeptical and evidence-driven about one part of their life, and so credulous, presuppositional and, yes, irrational, about another. It probably comes back to exactly what his religious beliefs are, the origin of his religiosity, how embedded it is, and what it means to him.

Which is to say, it seems pretty clear they exist. I can’t tell you why, and I don’t think I’m the person to provide those answers.

As far as the bible, the problems with it are very well documented. The deaths, destruction, vengeance, atrocities, capriciousness, contradictions, bizarre fables, injustice, slavery, scientific inaccuracies and all the other… stuff… is clearly outlined in its own pages.

However, the bible itself is really quite irrelevant. It’s sort of like standing at an empty patch of land and arguing about what the instruction PDF for an IKEA shelving system means. You haven’t established that a building is actually going there, what it consists of or what is contains, let alone whether IKEA is the best answer that fits. Quoting the instruction sheet you downloaded from the IKEA site for how you know the shelf exists is jumping way ahead.

How do you know a god creature can exist - especially the undetectable, “mysterious” ones? How did you determine that a god creature does exist? How were you able to identify the nature and attributes of that god creature? What process did you use to establish that the god creature is the one depicted in your specific version of your particular storybook? What was your method for concluding that the storybook is an accurate representation of its opinions? Why should I even care what it thinks? Why should I care what’s in the bible, when you haven’t established why this storybook even matters, any more than the Iliad or Codex Regius matter?

The bible as it is written stands in direct opposition to modern perspectives and morality. They’re practically night and day. But where I think the modern perspective is best used is not in arguing the individual dot points in the book that they will read the way they want to – although that can be fun. It’s in our understanding that the “how” and “why” are more important questions to answer than the “what,” which is nothing but a claim; one of thousands, and without a “how” or “why,” more than likely just an lazy guess. And applying that modern perspective to rationally and critically rewinding back the original assumptions and faulty thought processes that got us to the bible - and Quran, and others - in the first place.