#- when they already have a disorder that makes them think they're inherently evil. isn't the best course of action''

[daz4i]

man it's so depressing reading abt your own disorder and seeing stuff like "some doctors prefer not to diagnose or help people with this disorder due to patients' tendency to lie or manipulate others" do you not hear how fucked up you sound bestie. idk how to explain to you that you are not the victim or vulnerable party in this situation. and the fact the main rebuttal to this is often "that's not true about *all* patients!" or "they're not doing it on purpose!" instead of "hey 1 that's a very fucked up assumption that's barely based on anything 2 you are refusing help to people who are suffering because of said fucked up assumption. you are not even looking at them like people". like maybe the reason ppl with this disorder feel the need to lie is we don't feel safe telling the truth abt our situation bc we're scared doctors will kick us out or refuse treatment bc we're so "difficult" 🤨

[jewishvitya]

I was having a conversation about "narcissistic abuse" with a person with NPD. We were talking about the need to call out toxic behaviors that might come with unmanaged NPD, and how it's nothing like what we see now online. We talked about how people like them, who want to treat others well and manage their disorder, deserve to have resources that help them have healthy relationships. And they thanked me for not immediately assuming the worst of them. Which. Just shows you how they're used to being treated.

They got suicide baiting from random strangers just for the fact that they have NPD.

I've seen people getting told "this is doing nothing but making me feel awful about myself" and responding with "you should feel awful about yourself, you're a narcissist!"

It's dangerous to equate abuse with narcissism. It's dangerous to see people with NPD as deserving of harm. Most people with NPD will already be victims of abuse - that's how the disorder is usually developed. If you buy into the idea that they're abusive by nature, you're harming survivors.

There's no harmless way to dehumanize an entire group of people. Especially not over a trait they can't help.

Victims and survivors of abuse should get to talk about their experiences. This doesn't require diagnosing anyone and it doesn't require using a term that's associated with a disorder that's already seen as an inherent evil. There's no kind of abuse that's inherent or exclusive to a specific disorder. I hear the term "coercive control" which sounds really good for the kind of emotional and psychological abuse that gets discussed in those conversations, without adding ableist stigma.

If your opposition to ableism doesn't include people with the most stigmatized disorders, how deeply are you truly thinking about things.

The harm caused to people with NPD through stigma is enough for this to matter. But in addition to that, it's harmful to other people too.

First of all, because you buy into having a group of people who become acceptable targets over a condition they can't help.

Second, because you teach yourself to armchair diagnose people. Which means that you get to put whoever you want into the "acceptable target" group.

When you have a group of people that you think don't deserve to be treated as people, it's easier to persuade you to put unrelated people in that category. Think of the way accusations of "child predator!" are wielded against queer people too. This is not an uncommon tactic.

And it's already a thing here. Sam Vaknin was the one who coined the term narcissistic abuse. That's a man with no credentials to talk about mental health or about abuse. He's a hateful bigoted person. The things that he considers narcissistic include homosexuality, transgender identities, and women who sleep with multiple men instead of settling down with one.

If you buy into the idea that having NPD essentially means being abusive, and then all these things are all narcissistic things. At that point we have a line drawn between queerness and abuse, using the line that was drawn between NPD and abuse.

And another point, about the harassment people with NPD get, is - we shouldn't be punishing people. Just, in general. Punishment isn't justice and it isn't accountability. Withstanding whatever harm people see fit to inflict on you because they were convinced to hate you, rightfully or not, isn't justice or accountability. Even if you convinced yourself that the harm isn't real because… it happens in the virtual space? And that makes it fake somehow?

Think of the way people online talk about narcissists. Think of how easily they armchair diagnose NPD, calling any abuser a narc, and sometimes from one sided stories. And the way people hurry to cyberbully and dogpile.

Abusers will often paint their victims as the abusive ones as a way to escape being known as abusive. And if you take the job of punishing people that you decided deserve it, you will at some point become a tool of an abuser trying to further harm their victim.

Even if you see evidence, it's easy to fake and manufacture. And it'll only become easier with voice and video AI tools. And even if it's all true, punishing people does nothing good.

Convincing you that a group of people is inherently dangerous is a way to make you willing to harm them, or stand by as harm is being done to them. People with NPD don't deserve that.

Stop looking for people that it's acceptable to harass and punish and ostracize. Most of us are susceptible to mob mentality, and having acceptable targets makes you dangerous.