#(he's only drinking b/c nobody tried to lead him there lol)

[micrathene-w]

Some time later, Brenna wakes to the sounds of splashing and nickering. She thinks a few choice thoughts about whoever designed this cabin and put the horse's watering trough right outside the bedroom window, but Smoke hasn't done this to them before.

His decision to drink - noisily - at this time of night might indicate another problem.

With a sigh, she gets out of bed and pulls on her coat against the night-time chill outdoors.

[unproduciblesmackdown]

Fun fact: I googled Winston’s famous “you’re on a revenge jag” quote including the part about digging two graves (neither of which needed to be his). Apparently that was a reference to a Chinese proverb (often attributed to Confucius but not really) that states “Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves,” meaning that seeking revenge will probably lead to destroying yourself as well as whoever you’re trying to destroy. In this case, Taylor was screwing over all of Mase (1/2)

(2/2) Cap in their quest to get back at Axe and Winston was understandably pissed at how they were paying for something they didn’t ask to be caught up in. When he said “neither [grave] needs to be mine” he meant that he didn’t have to stay and end up in a grave, which of course led to Mafee attacking him for being “disloyal” for not wanting to be in the crossfire of a revenge plot that he never asked to be a part of. But yeah, make of that what you will. Just something interesting I found.

oh yeah after reading this i also tried to look up if we know the source of the Dig Two Graves saying and apparently we really do not (i.e. yeah frequently attributed to confucius but there’s no actual record of that, been attributed to Ancient Greece or smthing just as baselessly, there’s apparently an idea it could be a rough translation of a japanese aphorism but it’s just an idea)

really winston is laying out his whole Argument v well and i suppose that’s why taylor had No immediate response for him, b/c surely if he Was just gonna complain abt it like “this sucks >:/” and leave it at that, they’d be prepared to maybe handle that level of disgruntlement and have some methods in mind to shut it down, but winston is just Right and is being thorough about why he’s right and like. i don’t think they Can really argue with it, much less were prepared to do so in that moment, and sure seems like they did ultimately agree with him / listen to him seeing as they turn around (in 4x12, not 4x11, rip) to say they Had gotten off-course and weren’t interested in taking the revenge jag route, actually

like, he’s walking through why the Revenge Jag is the only reason they’re not getting bonuses, vs mafee just ascribing it to a general strategy to Save Resources in year 1 of the fund.......pointing out that if taylor Wanted to pay *anyone* full bonuses, they Could prioritize their top employees which does included winston even though he gets no backup on that outside of 3x11 and certainly not now when he’s Cringe N Fail cuz he said Moi while insisting on his value (and when the general audience of the show seems to have decided he’s out-of-line Egotistical for taking pride in his ability and never downplaying it / the value of it) as well as the fact that this isn’t about “oh i Would pay you if i Could” b/c he knows they’re not just waiting for some influx of funds, they’re Only holding back on paying people because they’re Anticipating the [dig two graves] situation, i.e. it’s Because they’re now planning to reorient their strategy around Actively Battling Axe Cap (in that they’re now intending to go on the offensive rather than just reacting defensively to axe’s attacks) that they foresee a need to Conserve Resources b/c they know this course of action could be “damaging” to mase cap by costing them money. and that taylor is putting that Anticipated Burden of an unnecessary plan that they personally chose......like, taylor’s employees don’t really get a say in this shift where the overall direction of the fund is now: Revenge Jag, but they’re pretty literally paying for it, aka having that [dig two graves] Cost put on them, aka neither grave has to be winston’s......

plus winston has Especial reason to be upset with this shift towards revenge jag, b/c he’s the quantitative guy, and this isn’t a Quantitatively Driven approach, as evident by him in 4x08 talking abt how the numbers don’t back up this particular strategy and in 4x12 when taylor’s talking about returning to their mathematical model and then winston says Q is for Quantitative Babey which isn’t just a total nonsequitur......Revenge Jag Tmc would be less focused on the quant-driven approach and thus winston’s work would be less relevant and he wouldn’t be able to just do his best shit for them if it kept being the case like “yeah we’re pursuing this strategy b/c first and foremost it’d suck for axe” so he’d have reason to feel like not only is he being Devalued right now in not being worth like, basically investing in as a Resource (like, speaking of conserving them, Not driving off your head quant would = conserving a resource) but in the future his contributions and ideas might continue to be pushed aside b/c like, again with the Dig Two Graves, the revenge jag probably isn’t gonna be quantitatively-friendly and he’d have to keep writing off his own potential input / have his own strategies be valued less b/c they’re deprioritized in favor of “what might be damaging for axe cap”

and then from a more Meta perspective, there’s the fact that mase cap only has four named non-taylor people, and mafee’s feeling Especially obligated to provide taylor with immediate and unconditional support thanks to his whole “oops i spilled some intel” thing, and sara really wouldn’t criticize this move even if she didn’t 100% individually love it either, b/c it Would conserve resources for tmc and she’s more about telling taylor what they need to do from the “you gotta do this thing you might not personally wanna do to make / avoid losing money” and this is like, the opposite of that, and sara would also probably save such input for a one-on-one meeting lol, and lauren’s not gonna say anything, so really only winston is Available to speak up lol

and that transitions right into how winston’s also immediately proven correct in criticizing the whole structure of this “choice” they’re getting, in that they’re all pressured to take the [defer bonus for a year] route and this is happening not through Direct pressure from taylor, but the expectation that the Social Dynamics among coworkers will push everyone to defer. like, clearly the thing is that everyone’s going to be worried that if anyone’s deferring, that’ll make those employees Look Good b/c they’re proving their Loyalty and “taking one for the team,” and a reasonable worry that those employees will thus be Preferred going forward. and in this moment that winston’s bringing it up, he’s also, you know, arguing with his boss and gets no support / backup on it not only b/c none of the other people present wanna actually make these Complaints themselves / back them up even if, like mafee, they’re evidently not personally thrilled about it, but also b/c winston really doesn’t seem to have much support in s4 beyond taylor’s indirect and implicit validation, which he of course isn’t gonna get here, and if people were willing to ignore / dismiss winston’s input and/or dunk on him about it over basically Nothing before, here’s a chance to choose between “hmm Winston Vs Taylor” like. nobody’s gonna side with winston, maybe not even if he Was popular and beloved, but he’s apparently the guy nobody has much respect / appreciation for and broadly dislikes, so it’s just like. he has Points, and mafee doesn’t even argue against those, just argues against winston daring to bring them up at all, because a) mafee is looking to continue Proving his support of taylor anyways and here’s an obvious avenue to do so by just shoving winston into a locker b/c you easily Can and b) he’s attacking winston not for being Wrong but for being Disloyal for not just Supporting taylor here and being whiny rather than taking one for the team and whatever nonsense about “if you don’t like it, become ceo of your own fund” like, the lesson here is to unionize......but really winston is just proven Right by mafee, a coworker, immediately making this an issue of Loyalty and by winston only caving not b/c he accepts that he’s Wrong on any of his points but b/c he’s being Social Pressured here in the form of “being yelled at / insulted and when he’s yelled at / insulted winston seems to just want it to Be Over, reasonably,” and taylor doesn’t Have to pressure him themself if their employees will pressure each other For them

god i’m still mad about 4x11 lmfao. bitter 5ever like how can you not be. he was Right but it didn’t matter b/c nobody was gonna stick up for him in the face of a) backign Taylor instead or b) in the face of anything, tbh. that shit didn’t kick in until s5, finally, and still only Partially.....peak standing up for winston in the form of rian in 5x05 going “yeah i’ll casually argue for why you shouldn’t fire him" and “oh you’re saying winston should have a drink? i’m saying he should do whatever he wants b/c what are you, shit at math?” thank you rian. probably totally unnecessary and that’s what winston deserves for once, like, go Beyond “someone intervening only if the most belligerent and bullying axe capper comes storming over to yell at winston, but if bill uses his inside voice it’s okay to just monitor the situation even if it involves threats and getting all up in winston’s space like a creep” i don’t think rian would be a silent observer to that

tl;dr Yeah Agree lmao sorry it took me ages to answer this....i was like “oh god i gotta be semi-Coherent for this one and say smthing beyond ‘yeah agree’” and i procrastinated that for this whole time b/c it’s intimidating to think of trying to accomplish that. thank u for the ask lol

[antthonystark]

Alec is my favorite character but I do think he is being worse to jace than jace ever was to him, if it's true that he's going to neglect his friendship with him for Magnus. Jace ignored Alec for Clary, but Alec was not in the aftermath of being tortured and jailed or homeless at the time. Also, Alec did make legitimately terrible decisions in the first season, such as going along with the Clave while Jace rebelled against it. But hopefully that scene is misleading and Alec is more sensitive.

note to anon: this is incredibly long. don’t feel like you have to read it all lol. atsome point it just devolves into me venting. but I appreciate the opportunityto do so, so thanks for the question and opportunity to entertain differentviewpoints!

also quick disclaimer: i really love jace wayland/herondale/lightwood/whatever. this answer might make it seem like i don’t but i really do.  

“if it’s true that he’s going to neglect his friendship with[jace] for magnus” seven episodes beforetheir first date. Immediately after that, Jace goes with Valentine to saveeverybody’s asses, and then we move into Season 2. If Alec is as horrible asyou describe, Alec would be like “lol ok boy bye” and go start having drinkswith Magnus b/c Jace is finally out of his hair. Instead, what actuallyhappened is over the course of three (3) episodes (half the season thus far), Alec is destroying himself andpotentially his relationships witheverybody else (including Magnus) in order to get Jace back, because “he’s outthere and he’s in trouble” (Alec 2x01) and “he needs me” (Alec 2x02). Nobodywas as acutely aware of how much Jace had been suffering more than Alec was.And, for the love of God, Alec was inches away from killing himself in order to save Jace from Valentine. Like, did youjust…pave over that part? Alec willingly participated in a procedure that heknows most people don’t survive if it meant helping Jace – in fact, if youcount 2x01, he did it twice. For allthat you say Alec is your favourite character, and I don’t doubt he is, but hisliteral life doesn’t seem to havemuch currency with you.

As for what happened after 2x03 and up until now and future episodes,I mean, Alec is human. If Jace isallowed to treat Alec quite poorly over a girl he met a few days ago (we’ll getinto this in just a moment), then if Alec wants to focus (not even exclusively, butat least a little bit) on a relationship that he has clearly been interested inever since 1x04 (over a whole season ago) – and moreover, if he wants to focuson trying to cultivate a kind of happiness he has never allowed himself to have in his entire life, why does thatmake him automatically awful? He has not once yet neglected Jace – please see anice breakdown of that concept here – even in 2x07, it’s not like he’s ignoring Jace, he’s trying to help solvehis issues.

Like, if you look at the ways in which Alec and Jace havehistorically interacted, Alec and Jace are generally not “sensitive” with oneanother, so to expect Alec to be out of character towards Jace so you canapprove of his actions is a bit strange in my opinion. The last time Jace wasmessed up was when he first discovered Valentine was his father, and he almostkilled Hodge in 1x13. Alec spoke to Jace in a very similar way – not sensitive or gentle, almost goading him outof his own bad decisions (much in the way that a parent or big brother or momfriend™ would do), because that’s how his relationship with Jace is and hasalways been. Rough but ultimately understanding. The only lapse in this was in1x12, when they reconciled over a whole season of fighting, so it’sunderstandable to have them be a bit noticeably kind towards each other. (I spokeabout this in more detail here).

So as for the first part, I don’t see how Alec is ignoring Jace.In 2x05, certainly, he brushed Jace off – but he did just go through somethingthat would be extremely traumatic for anybody (an external entity taking overhis body and brain and his free will in order to punch his friend’s mom throughthe heart with his own bare hands while he’s helpless to stop it). I know thatJace has had much more than his fair share of trauma throughout the first fiveepisodes, and if I had to pick someone to comfort, it would be Jace over Alec.But unfortunately, people don’t work like that. Alec just went throughsomething awful, and that he’s not able to step back and go “hey, but you’vebeen through worse shit, how are you doing?” doesn’t make him a horribleperson. Even so, you can see that what’s eating at Alec is not, “I just wentthrough something terrible,” but rather, “I couldn’t save you from any of theshit that you went through, and now I’ve killed yours and Clary’s mom, too, whydo you want anything to do with me?” So it’s far from self-centred and it’sentirely understandable that he doesn’t want to face Jace about any of it atthat moment. I guess you could call it Alec being self-centred if you’rethinking that Alec is only cognizant of his own issues and not everything thatJace has been through (being all “woe is me” instead of caring about Jace), butlike?? he’s a human person who is struggling a lot right now, and the reasonhe’s struggling is because he feels like he has let everybody down and failedat both his job and the people he loves. he’s not perfect. The full burden ofJace’s emotional well-being does not rest on his shoulders and that you’retrying to make him responsible for it isn’t sitting quite well with me.

OKAY. So. Onto the next part.

Listen, I love Jace, so I don’t want to start listing off theways in which he behaved awfully towards Alec in season 1, because I’m okaywith letting bygones be bygones and letting characters develop away from themistakes of their pasts. But, what the hell, let’s get into it – it’s not byany means a simple case of Jace just “ignoring” Alec because he likes a girl(that’s to be expected and Alec is a big boy who can handle that kind oftreatment). But Jace really does mistreat Alec in a myriad of different ways.

Let’s start with 1x03, and bear in mind that Alec is the head ofthe institute – he’s not just the oldest child, but he is superior to everyoneelse and is responsible for everyoneelse in the Clave’s chain of command. When Alec says that they’re not allowed toembark on an unsanctioned mission, Jace and Clary literally dismiss himentirely. Throughout the episode, Jace doesn’t listen to Alec for even asecond, even if what Alec’s saying isn’t unreasonable. At the end of it, Alecis saying “just listen to me for one second – ” and Jace yells at him to “stop.�� That’s just the sort of dismissivebehaviour Jace has towards Alec throughout the majority of the first part ofSeason 1.

Don’t even get me started on 1x05, where Jace – who knows what Alec’s insecurities arebetter than anyone – spits in his face that “your mother was right and yourbest just isn’t good enough” and basically calls Alec trash to his face becauseClary snuck out of the institute. Andeven then, Alec barely fights him on it, because his self-worth is in tatters(or it is now, if it wasn’t already).

But what’s worse aboutthis and behaviour like this is that it shows a disregard of what Alec has togo through that is far more callousthan any Alec may or may not have shown towards Jace in Season 2. Like I said,Alec is in charge of our little squad in terms of the chain of command –meaning that any and all consequences of their insubordination fall squarely onAlec’s shoulders, while the rest of them are able to go pretty much scot-free(other than Isabelle, who tries to placate the Lightwood parents to get theheat off of Alec). In 1x05, Alec gets chewed out by Maryse for approving themissions he was strongarmed into participating in by Jace/Clary; in 1x06, Robertvery clearly states that he blames Alec for the heat that the Lightwoods arefeeling towards the Clave, stating that (which then leads to Alec blaming himself enough to almost marry someonehe could never love):

Robert:But… after all the unsanctioned missions that your brotherauthorized while we were away…

Isabelle:Alec was protecting Clary. We all were. That’s what the Clavewanted.

Robert:You went rogue. And now the Clave thinks our family honor isbeyond repair. (Which then leads to the Lightwoods trying to arrange a marriagebetween Alec and somebody else for their own political gain, irrespective ofthe fact that Alec is gay.)

By episode 6, even Simon – who barely knows either of them –realizes that Jace “treat[s] [Alec] like a lapdog.” And it’s true – Alec gotfully chewed out by Robert for Jace and Clary being missing in 1x06, and whenhe tries to get Jace back as per orders, Jace doesn’t listen to a word he saysand instead immediately goes, no, I need you here instead. Of course, it’s animportant thing – Luke’s life hangs in the balance – but it does show acomplete disregard for Alec’s situation. This idea continues into 1x07, whereAlec fully says that his dad would disown him if he doesn’t get Jace back. I completely get that Jace is just doing what he thinks is right, and I fully appreciatethat -  but if we’re talking about who doesn’t care about whom, then he doesn’t seem to give one shit about what effect that’s having onAlec. And once again, all the consequences of Jace’s behaviour are fallingsquarely on Alec’s shoulders.

(I’m certain that had Alec gone with instead of against Jace in1x09, the consequences – in the form of Isabelle’s trial – would again havefallen on him instead of Isabelle, since he’s the head in the chain ofcommand.)

The most insidious thing here of course is that, because nobodylistened to Alec, and he had to take pretty much all of the heat for theirinsubordination – this led very, very, very directly into Alec’s arrangedmarriage with Lydia, a woman, which further and more violently repressed Alec’salready violently-repressed self. Now, an almost-marriage isn’t nearly asshitty as being tortured or homeless, but it’s not like Jace was “just ignoring”Alec – Jace’s behaviour and disregard towards Alec led to Alec finding himself ina significantly terrible situation. It also leads to the Lightwoods losing theInstitute, and Alec therefore losing the chance to ever head the Institute,which is something he seems pretty broken up about – saying, rightly, that “I’vedone everything for my parents, the Clave – I’ve done everything that they’veasked”, and he still ends up with nothing (1x08). And, of course, Not all of that or even most of that is Jace’sfault, obviously (and some of it is Clary’s), but it plays into it in a waythat I think is not insignificant.

And this isn’t even factoring in how Jace lied to, stole from,and betrayed Alec in the whole 1x09-1x11 plot, because I can respect that Jacedid that for a greater good. And thisisn’t factoring in how Alec has feelings for Jace (feelings that he never actedon or blamed Jace for, feelings that he is completely anguished about, whichJace then throws into Alec’s face in1x09 and gets a pretty well-deserved punch for that).

Now, moving on.

Finally, the one singular instance in which Alec goesagainst Jace and with the Clave is in 1x09. I’m not going to condone Alec condoningthe state-sanctioned torture of another person (Meliorn), but in full defenseof Alec (as usual), let’s break it down.

What Clary and Jace did – stealing the Mortal Cup, most notably,to keep it from the Clave – had fucking disastrousconsequences. Had it not been for Clary’s quick thinking in the nick oftime (credit where it’s due, that was fucking awesome), they would haveliterally delivered the Mortal Cup straight into the hands of “Michael Wayland”aka Valentine.

So, honestly, other than the whole torture thing which I’m noteven going to try and defend, I can’t blame Alec for wanting to side with theClave when it comes to the Mortal Cup and Valentine. Being cognizant of therecent history of the Shadow World, the last time a group of young vigilantesstarted going rogue, it led to disastrous consequences – and that wasn’t a long time ago in the ShadowWorld. That was, what, twenty or thirty years ago? It’s very, very recenthistory. And Alec is very aware of this – so his desire to follow the Clavedoesn’t come from the fact that he necessarily thinks that what the Clave isdoing is right, but rather that he’s aware that breaking down the authoritiesin the Shadow World can lead to chaos - and it’s very fresh in his mind because of the recent revelation about his parents.

Alec’s most significant line in 1x09, Ithink, is this one, after Jace implores him to join him: “If we do that… we’ll be considered traitors like Mom and Dad.”

So you can see that Alec is extremelymessed up about his parents being in the Circle, but understands how defyingthe authority of the Clave in this case can easily be equitable to theactivities of Valentine and the Circle – so this isn’t about Alec ideologicallyaligning himself with the more questionable elements of the Clave’s methods andrhetoric, but rather Alec understanding that if they go against the Clave, it’sgoing to cause more harm than good for them personally and overall. (And Alecis ultimately proven right as Isabelle is so very nearly convicted of treasonand sentenced to exile as a scapegoat for Clary and Jace).

And for all that people were okay with defending Raj andAldertree for “just following orders”, that excuse seems to hold no water whenit comes to Alec. I don’t personally think it’s a very good excuse for anybody,because people have choices about how to act, but just pointing that out.

In the end, was it a good decision? Not really, no. Were thealternatives much better? Not really, no. And it’s a lot more complex than “Alecfollows rules because he’s a rule-follower”, which I think is usually whatpeople make it out to be.

If you’ve actually made it this far……….I mean, kudos. Thanks for reading.