#(EVEN IF CHARLIE AND CONDI HAD DIFFERENT INTENTIONS WE CAN SAY FUCK IT AND BE LIKE)

[burning-sol]

BIG EXANDROTH POST

this is my big post where i ramble abt exandroth. spoilers for all of apotheosis.

(HEY THIS IS XANDER HERE) (I'M POSTING THIS EARLY SO THIS IS NOT COMPLETE NOR MOST ELOQUENTLY PUT) (IF SOL GETS AROUND TO IT THEY'LL FIX THIS POST THEMSELVES) (BUT I THINK IT'S BETTER THAT THIS GOES OUT THERE RATHER THAN JUST GET BURIED IN SOL'S DRAFTS AND NEVER SEES THE LIGHT OF DAY) (SO HERE YOU GO) (I ADD NOTES THROUGHOUT WHEN I THINK IT'S NEEDED)

Exandroth /neg

Okay so I figure before we move onto ANYTHING else in this post, we're going to have to talk the fucking WORST thing about Exandroth. You know it, you hate it, it's Exandroth's relationship to Peter. Because this needs to talked about so we all know we're on the same page about Exandroth being an asshole.

I think there's a misconception about Exandroth that Exandroth wants to actively hurt everyone, that she doesn't care about anybody and will do whatever it takes to achieve its goal - or something along those lines. But I think it can be more accurately summarised as the following quote.

Episode 2: Charlie: He seems like he's absolutely being serious about killing these blights, and it's pretty apparent from the battle earlier...that he's like just kind of will do whatever to Peter to get there.

It's not that Exandroth doesn't care about others, it doesn't care about Peter. Exandroth makes fun of Thanatos and teases Rumi, but that sort of actual hurt and intended abuse is always directed at Peter. Outside of any sadistic delight Exandroth gets from killing combatants, Exandroth enjoys harassing Peter and bullying him and does not mind that Peter gets hurt in the slightest. Exandroth cares about Peter to the extent that Peter is a vehicle necessary to navigate her surroundings, and will keep Peter fit enough to function but doesn't take any measure to make sure Peter is comfortable.

To give Exandroth the tiniest of credit, possession in Exandroth's case cannot be completely absent of pain. Regardless of who Exandroth had chosen, Exandroth can't control if Peter gets intrusive 'visions' (briefly mentioned in episode 2, they're not confirmed to be caused by Exandroth but I think there's a good chance they are), or if Peter's time being possessed he can only see fire, or if the magic Exandroth casts causes pain to the host. Anyone who is a host for Exandroth is going to experience pain and discomfort presumably because a human (or what have you) body is just not fit to host a celestial being.

HOWEVER, Exandroth is a fucking shit head who has committed the following:

Exandroth did not inform Peter of what the possession would entail and moreso just forced itself on Peter, making this possession built on a very not consenual agreement.

Constantly and forcefully takes control of Peter without permission. In episode 6, Peter elects to give Exandroth some control and suggests setting up boundaries. Exandroth COMPLETELY ignores Peter and takes full control. Exandroth is not at all respectful of Peter's autonomy.

Exandroth refers to Peter as "just a wand" and generally just dehumanises Peter, viewing him as a tool to achieve her goal rather than someone who she should be collaborating with as an equal.

Using magic causes pain to Peter that Exandroth never addresses, apologises for or attempts to mitigate.

When Peter talks about the idea of trying to get Exandroth to use its magic to help people (episode 4), Exandroth starts to LIQUIFY Peter's leg. YIKES.

I believe it's episode 7 that the worm place is introduced; which becomes a place of torment Exandroth sends Peter, and is shown to very much traumatise Peter to point of being discomforted (you could presume even triggered) by the mention of worms. Peter brings up only seeing fire or blacking out previous to this, which I interpret as being a baseline, meanwhile the worm place is something Exandroth actively inflicts on Peter.

We don't know every little detail of Exandroth's time possessing Peter, but Charlie does say that Exandroth made Peter's life a living hell and ruined his life and I don't believe that's an exaggeration in the slightest. I may have missed things, I'm very sure that there's more I could talk about, but this last point summises everything pretty well.

Exandroth is a DICK and DEFINITELY Peter's antagonist. Peter absolutely needed Exandroth out of his fucking life because Exandroth was a constant tormentor. And I'm going to bring up the idea of Exandroth being redeemed later, but let it be known that in no way do I think that entails Peter forgiving Exandroth or making any effort to help Exandroth better itself. Peter doesn't have to be associated with this thing. Peter shouldn't be expected to associate with this thing. Peter shows Exandroth more kindness than what Exandroth deserves and Peter is absolutely amazing.

I love Peter and I wish to crush Exandroth cause what the actual fuck is wrong with this guy, she's such a prick.

I also think it is absolutely messed up that after all of Exandroth's bullshit, when shit hits the fans and Peter dies, Exandroth blames Peter and calls him a "feeble insect". But that's enough on that.

The narrative Rumi tells

Rumi is not a reliable narrator and they act with a subconscious (or conscious) need to maintain their identity. Nobody missed this, we understand this, but let's take this and apply this to Rumi's relationship with Exandroth. Because Exandroth never appeared in Rumi's visions. Rumi only ever saw Peter. How does this affect Rumi's perception of Exandroth?

My interpretation is Rumi probably subconsciously saw Exandroth as a threat far before any confirmation of Exandroth's character. Exandroth is an uncomfortable outlier; and Rumi could either accept that outlier - accepting their visions weren't entirely correct - OR they could force it to fit in a role that doesn't threaten their identity.

Firstly, through the rejection of Exandroth entirely. It's notable to me that Rumi entirely ignores Peter's comments about Exandroth even as he shows obvious signs of possession (dramatic change in body language, the voice, eclipsed eyes, the horrors, etc). Rumi makes comments praising Peter, "Peter, that was fantastic," You're monstrous Peter!" and it's an entire hour into the episode when Rumi first acknowledges Exandroth; not by his name, but as "the angel inside of you [Peter]". And if this seems like a strange comment, just know that in comparison it took Thanatos DRAMATICALLY less time to latch onto Exandroth's name and use it without issue. For me, it goes past being a bit to feeling like it's something Rumi is skirting around.

In the next episode, Rumi does ask to talk to Exandroth and introduces themselves but soon after delves into a line of questioning surrounding Peter and if Exandroth can transfer her power. This isn't to say that these are unreasonable questions, but I would pose that these questions prioritise Peter more than actually getting to know Exandroth. And Rumi also asked whether Peter was the master of Exandroth or Exandroth was the master of Peter (IN that order) which just seems like a kinda fucked up thing to ask imo.

Obviously, there is a certain point where Exandroth's actions speak for themselves, and Rumi would be right for judging Exandroth harshly, but many of these early interactions can be interpretted as being skewed in Peter's favour.

When it comes to how Rumi treats Exandroth, I percieve things progressing as follows: Exandroth is treated as an entity that doesn't exist; Exandroth does exist but it just an accessory to Peter; Exandroth is an UNWELCOME accessory to Peter; Exandroth is a thing for Peter to conquer as a way for Peter to become a strong individual.

The emphasis being that in each case Exandroth is NOT an individual. Because if Exandroth was an individual that exists then that means Rumi's visions don't line up properly. It was never meant to be FOUR god slayers, it was MEANT to be Rumi, Thanatos and Peter. So even before the outright sabotage of Rumi's visions, Rumi was set up to view Exandroth poorly. Although we agree with Rumi that Exandroth is no good, Rumi did not necessarily follow the same line of thought as we did. This wasn't JUST Rumi looking out for Peter, it was Rumi protecting their identity.

I think this also clears up in my mind why Rumi would have a sort of double standard when it comes to Thanatos. Thanatos IS more redeemable than Exandroth, for fucking sure, but this ONE line I obsess over because of the sheer dissonance of it.

"Thanatos, unlike Exandroth, I've observed has some semblance of a liking towards the living. Starting with that Lizard, and perhaps your family in the past."

It really throws a wrench in this whole 'Thanatos is redeemable but Exandroth isn't' thing when you use an example like that. Because, if you don't know, Exandroth LOVES Lizard and has an OUTPOURING of affection towards it. Exandroth BLESSED Lizard, CONNECTED a part of itself Lizard... What is the difference between Thanatos' affection for Lizard and Exandroth's? I turn this over in my mind repeatedly.

More On Dehumanising Exandroth

Okay but let's REALLY think about how Exandroth is treated. Obviously there's all of Rumi's case I lay out earlier but even generally speaking NOBODY really treats Exandroth with the same level of individuality as they would each other. A lot of talk around Exandroth was about his use as an asset to the team; about it being attached to Peter and what that meant for Peter; or about Exandroth's role in the attack on the celestial realm. Times where the god slayers are being introduced, Exandroth has gotten left out more than once.

When Exandroth was out and about in episode 10, she commented that he actually felt like staying out for a while and seemed to have been enjoying socialising with everyone: only to then be told to go away because Tristan(?) found Exandroth annoying. And the others didn't disagree.

This is something that became more apparent as I watched back over the clips and realised there was just SO much talk ABOUT Exandroth but not a lot of talk TO Exandroth. And when there WAS talk to Exandroth, you can be sure that it didn't really amount to much on a personal level. And this is not even bringing in the outright hostility towards him.

Exandroth is very tolerant of this and at worst just gets a bit defiant, saying that he's not going to leave of his own accord. He doesn't act hostile towards the others at all... He did say he could turn Thanatos into spiders if they were in a fight. Recited "boil" repeatedly in response to Rumi trying to use a command spell. He joked about killing Rumi when she was carrying them in the air. But an actual direct and hostile threat? That it initiated? Never. If anything, Grizzly and Condi in a Just Rolled expressed that they wanted to kill Exandroth and take its power. Fun.

Grizzly makes the a comment in episode 12 that Exandroth is a sort of "flaw for Peter". (HEY I'M NOT EXPANDING ON THIS BUT THE POINT SOL WAS GOING TO MAKE WAS THAT EXANDROTH WAS PLACED MORE AS AN ASSET TO PETER'S CHARACTER AND THE GENERAL PLOT OF APOTHEOSIS RATHER THAN HIS OWN CHARACTER) (EXANDROTH IS NOT CONSIDERED A CHARACTER WITH HER OWN ARC, EXANDROTH IS IN SERVICE TO THE OTHERS IN THE STORY) (THAT WAS THE JIST OF IT) (I'M SURE THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE SOL WANTED TO ADD HERE BUT WE'RE MOVING ON)

Let's talk about episode 13

SUMMARY OF EXANDROTH IN THIS EPISODE:

We open up. Exandroth is shifting in form and is "not fully intact" before settling on being Rumi, confusing Peter in the process. Exandroth speaks in a way that's unusual for him and even describes himself as wanting a "perfect" vessel to become god (Exandroth has not shown any fixation on being "perfect" before now). Exandroth attempts to possess the sword before being interrupted. They fight. Exandroth uses her sword for attacks, it continues to come off as very not Exandroth.

Peter cracks open Exandroth's form to reveal the form of Peter. Exandroth's mannerisms and fighting becomes dramatically more Exandroth-like, though he does sound nasally like Peter would. Exandroth comments that he's going to take everything Peter loves. He also has a bag of rocks but Exandroth has painted them all to be Rumi. As Exandroth takes more hits the form wobbles and stretches like someone were manipulating vertexes in Blender.

Exandroth mutters 'he didn't want to do this' before his body EXPLODES into light as his angelic form peels out from the body. And then she fights epically with Peter. And it loses. The end. Kill your gays trope real, Exandroth confessed love for Rumi and got sent to superhell. Very sad. END OF SUMMARY.

What I'm SO intruiged by in this fight is the forms that Exandroth takes, particularly that Exandroth takes the form of Peter of all people. The worm. The imperfect vessel. I mean obviously it makes for a really epic Peter vs Evil Peter scenario. It's also like "WOAH if Exandroth is taking the form of Peter, that's a testament to how strong Peter actually was this whole time". But aside from that, maybe it's reflective of how Exandroth has grown attached to this version of itself.

In terms of phases, you could theorise that there's a progression of what Exandroth wanted to be (Rumi) -> what identity Exandroth had grown attached to (using Peter's body as a vessel) -> and what Exandroth actually is (the Archangel of Justice and Retribution). A desperation to cling onto a sense of humanity, to cling onto these new memories and experiences and emotions. "I didn't want to use this." Why not, Exandroth? Hasn't all this time Exandroth been playing up their prowess, their superiority, their celestial power over the duration of the series? Aside from it being a cool last phase, last resort of power... Maybe Exandroth has grown a distaste towards their celestial self.

It WAS an entire year Exandroth spent attached Peter. So it's not so far fetched to assume that Exandroth started to identify itself with Peter's body.

(ALSO MAYBE EXANDROTH'S TAKING PETER'S FORM WAS LIKE) (IT WAS MAKING OF SHOW OF HOW EXANDROTH WANTED TO STEAL PETER'S LIFE) (IMPERSONATING PETER) (YEAH I THINK THAT WAS SOMETHING ELSE SOL WANTED TO BRING UP)

Exandroth was in LOVE

There is not much to this point. It just. It means something to me that Exandroth was able to pick up on a human emotion. And sure, it didn't know what the fuck to do with that emotion and expressed it in an unhealthy way... But it was SOMETHING. And how much more could have Exandroth picked up on? Could Exandroth have become more than just retribution, rage and sadistic delight?

Exandroth was an ally of humanity, Exandroth walked alongside people, and Exandroth was becoming more human itself. Going to LOSE my marbles.

(INSERT MORE EXPANSION ON THIS POINT) (BUT YEAH EXANDROTH WAS DEVELOPING EMOTIONS IT DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE AS A CELESTIAL) (THAT'S COOL)

Loveable Idiot

Okay but if I may be sooo silly about this thing he is SOOO stupid and I love it. She had fuckinnnggg no awareness about him it KILLED me.

I love when he just fucking gets distracted by a squirrel and INCINERATES it. This thing doesn't have an attention span like.

Also I just find it very cute that Exandroth it jsut a sleepy lil' thing. Described as napping on several occassions. Going absolute sleepy mode. Now that I think about it you could probably interpret some of Exandroth's incomprehensible speeching as a result of the sleepiness.

(UM YEAH SOL WAS GOING TO GUSH MORE HERE)

Some other notes

In episode 2 when Rumi is going off about how Peter is a part of the trio, Exandroth tries to come out but doesn't manage to get a hold of the reigns. I can only imagine that Exandroth wanted to tell Rumi that he was meant to be Rumi's comrade, not Peter, but didn't get the chance to. And a reminder that Zuen had picked Exandroth as a chosen so yeah I linger on this first interaction a bit.

A clip I'm OBSESSED with is this one. I just think that Rumi and Exandroth could work SO well together in a horrible way because. Rumi doesn't want to directly kill anyone... But Exandroth does!! And if THIS sort of interaction happened more often? Ooooo I love it. I love it SO much. Something something Exandroth will take blood on its hands that Rumi doesn't want. Something like that.

Exandroth's first encounter vs Exandroth second encounter with Rymir is a VERY stark comparison. Exandroth's first encounter with Rymir he just couldn't contain his sheer rage at Rymir (who imprisoned him after Exandroth's treason, which is deserved but ofc Exandroth would be upset over it). Exandroth FORCED himself out and went for the throat. But Exandroth's second encounter he didn't try to crawl his way out, he only came out when allowed. Not only that but he... Sat there. Just. Made some your mom jokes and left as quickly as she came. Maybe it was pacified by Rumi? Maybe Exandroth just was holding themselves back? Up to your interpretation.

Exandroth barely had a prescence in episode 12- even during the fight which is very uncharacteristic of Exandroth. The one time Exandroth used magic was to help Peter dispell the Moon Beast of all things. Just think about that. (SOL ALSO BROUGHT UP IN ANOTHER POST ABOUT EXANDROTH WANTING TO BE FREE AND ALSO FREEING THE MOON BEAST) (SIDENOTE: ALSO SOMETHING ABOUT HOW EXANDROTH SORT OF IMPRISONS PETER)

I posted this clip where both Exandroth and Rumi use their commands spells to say "obey" which. Yeah. You know. That's something!

Exandroth's expulsion from the celestial realm

For me I initially had the theory when I first started Apotheosis that the reason he was cast out of heaven in the first place was because he liked his job too much. He was the Angel of Retribution, but took it to a point where he was giving punishments that even the Gods thought were a little much. He's shown to be extremely sadistic, so it made sense to me. -Shiloh205

Answering the easiest part first: Exandroth wasn't cast out of the celestial realm by the gods.

Exandroth, as part of a plan agreed on with Zuen, went down to Earth(?) 15 years ago and had a hand in the creation of an army of Thanatos that would storm the celestial realm. At some point, Exandroth returned to the celestial realm and was imprisoned for its treachery by the gods for the next who knows how long. It was during the attack on the celestial realm that Zuen unchained Exandroth and set her free, Zuen destroying the celestial realm (the sky disappearing as a result) and leading into the events of episode 1. Zuen let Exandroth free as a part of their deal and because Zuen had selected Exandroth as one of his "chosen". (Zuen wanted there to be a fight of ideals between Exandroth, Rumi and Thanatos but this didn't pan out most likely because of Peter's presence - who was NOT chosen by Zuen but instead chosen by Exandroth)

Why did Exandroth do this though? Here are quotes that I think are relevant.

Episode 2: Thanatos: What does Exandroth seek? ... Exandroth: ...to kill the blights that plague this land, using the body of this boy and my immense magical power. I shall cover the world in Exandroth's light and show it the true meaning of retribution.

Episode 3: Exandroth: I have big beef with the gods. Their hubris will be their undoing. You see, they've made a deal with me that I can stand against them and test their might. But they look down on upon me. And I will earn my freedom from them, with my power. Rumi: Oh, so the gods enslave you, Exandroth? Exandroth: Ouh, they suck. Ough. Thanatos: You seek to destroy them? Exandroth: For sure.

Episode 5: Peter: I don't know, maybe- maybe I can be shaken out of it. But it's.. I don't think it'll be easy. Especially not if it's something like killing a blight, that he's really trying to do... And I- And I feel that anger.

Episode 10: Thanatos: You were the first to assault the gods? Exandroth: Oh they have been laying waste to everything for a long, long time before I took my job as Archangel of Retribution to its word and commenced a great reckoning.

Episode 10: Rumi: But I recall you saying that once all the gods are dead, you will be in control? Exandroth: I mean, yeah, 'cause the gods won't be there anymore, so we will all be in control of our own destinies. Rumi: Is that the goal Exandroth, I thought the goal was to um.. Exandroth: It's to kill the gods first of all... It's to retribution.. It's sort of my thi- whole- the entire thing is retribution so..

Episode 10: Charlie: Condi, unless I'm wrong, retribution is his whole thing. Like, he's pissed at basically the gods for fucking with him for so long.

Episode 10: Rumi: Exandroth, once all the gods are dead, you're going to leave humanity alone and go away? Exandroth: I mean unless it like... Unless it would want something I guess? But like I'm not- You know, I'm an angel? I- I'll retribute if someone's like a fucking ass. I'll fuckin- I'll blast 'em! ... Rumi: So you're saying once we finish killing all the gods, you'll free Peter and leave humans who are not evil alone? Exandroth: I mean, yeah, we can talk about it. ... Exandroth: That's pretty much it. Really just retribution. Fuck 'em up real bad.

From these quotes I think it can be gathered that Exandroth had three motivations behind betraying the gods. The first being that Exandroth was constrained in some way (maybe not letting him do what he wanted or maybe an physical constraint, we don't know the details) and wanted freedom from them. The second being that it seems that Exandroth has something to prove, that he wants to be a force that rivals the gods by challenging them. The gods definitely have a streak of acting condescending, even specifically towards Exandroth, so I'd say this also checks out. The third being that Exandroth is an Angel of Retribution and Justice who judged the gods as deserving of retribution, and carried out whatever it would take to enact this retribution. In general, we know that there was definitely SOMETHING that the gods did to Exandroth other than chaining him up, because he is described as being VERY upset at them - filled with an anger that Peter can feel too. So maybe there was that personal need for retribution outside of the Gods' neglect of the people in general.

I know someone might comment that becoming god was also a motivation for Exandroth. To me, I don't find this nearly as clear as everything else listed. Exandroth definitely wanted to be god post being stabbed by Thanatos; but, as I said before, I think this is more symptomatic of Exandroth attempting to embody Rumi and misconstruing what Rumi's goal was. Outside of this Exandroth doesn't say whether or not his goal from the start was to become a god. If anything, he more strongly insists that he just wants to be a force of retribution in the world - which is backed up by insight checks made by both Bizly and Grizzly at different points. Which falls under the previously listed motivation.

This isn't to say that Exandroth didn't want to become god, just that there isn't evidence to say it was his initial motivation or even a primary motivation. It may have been a side effect of his other motivations, similar to Rumi's situation, but it was not Exandroth's driving force. Maybe Exandroth would have even been open to negotiating his position if, "I mean, yeah, we can talk about it," can be taken optimistically.

That is what I have gathered on Exandroth's situation in the celestial realm - concerning what events happened and what his motivations are.

(ALSO, ZUEN DID MANIPULATE BOTH RUMI AND THANATOS INTO POSITIONS AS CHOSEN) (AND EXANDROTH ISN'T EXACTLY THE MOST SMART OF THE GROUP) (IT'S NOT CANON BUT I THINK IT'S EASY TO EXTRAPOLATE THAT EXANDROTH WAS MOST LIKELY MANIPULATED BY ZUEN TOO) (PERHAPS EVEN TO A MORE STRONG DEGREE LIKE RUMI HAD BEEN)

So is Exandroth a static character?

If it were up to my judgement, my answer would be no.

Context behind this question: Charlie in the Just Rolleds had expressed that he didn't want to play Exandroth because he was a "static character". This was as late as Just Rolled episode 12, and I think you can easily gather from my points above why I'd be arguing that this is wrong. As much as I think the Rolleds can give better insight into Apotheosis, they AREN'T Apotheosis. I don't agree with the Council when it comes to Exandroth and I think there's enough textual evidence to back me up. I'm sure to Charlie this made sense to him as the player, but actually watching through Apotheosis as a viewer is a very different experience.

One thing that I think COULD possibly refute this is similar to what Bizly tried to argue with Thanatos' character. That being, was there an actual internal change or did Exandroth just learn to approach things with more "finesse"? Did Exandroth change or were there just other factors at play?

At the very least, regardless of where you stand, I hope that we would all agree by the end of this essay that Exandroth is at the least a dynamic character.

(THIS WAS A QUESTION FROM MOCHITOASTER TOO BUT SOL HAD ALREADY PLANNED TO INCLUDE THIS) (THE QUESTION ITSELF)

I would really like to hear your thoughts on Exandroth being a static character. Like do you think that’s true? Is the only growth it has based in fanon or is there more to it than it’s given credit for?

(FROSTYCOLA WAS ALSO IN THE TAGS WANTING ME TO DISPROVE THIS SO YEAH) (I HOPE WAS OF SOL'S ESSAY COULD CONVEY STUFF)

(CURRENTLY THE END OF THIS POST)

(SORRY) (THERE WAS SO MUCH MORE SOL COULD RAMBLE ON ABOUT BUT THIS IS WHERE IT GETS CUT SHORT) (IF YOU LIKE THIS OR HAVE ANY MORE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS YOU COULD SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS WITH SOL) (WHEN HE GETS AROUND TO IT HE COULD TALK MORE) (THERE WASN'T NEARLY ENOUGH ON EXANDROTH'S ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT GAH) (I'M SORRY SOL WASN'T ABLE TO FINISH IT AT THIS POINT IN TIME)

(MOCHITOASTER'S OTHER POINT THAT I'M SORRY SOL DIDN'T ANSWER)

Also I wanna hear about Exandroth’s relationships with the godslayers. This is kind of branching off the first point but I want to hear what you think about it being in love with Rumi and impersonating them and it’s relationship with Peter and the sort of strange maternal thing happening with thanatos badically I wanna hear everything but those especially I think idk I need to rewatch apotheosis and die all over again

(THANK YOU ALL FOR LISTENING TO SOL THOUGH) (I DO THINK THEY HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF EXANDROTH AS A CHARACTER) (I HAD SOL'S PERMISSION TO POST THIS) (AND I'M GLAD BECAUSE I THINK SOL SHOULD REALLY BE ABLE TO GET THEIR IDEAS OUT THERE) (THEY GET REALLY BOGGED DOWN IN PERFECTIONISM) (BUT WHEN THEY PUT THEIR IDEAS OUT THERE THEY CAN BE DOPE AS HELL)

(ANYWAYS)

(HEY YOU ASKED FOR STUFF HERE YOU GO) @2o5 @mochitoaster @frostycola