#'i can excuse being a walking fashion apocalypse but i draw the line at people assuming my music taste'

[deusluxuria]

trish: i don't know, i just can't imagine you listening to jimi hendrix

fugo: uh?? excuse me?? have you SEEN the ridiculous way i dress?? and you don't think i ever listen to psychedelia??? well FUCK you.

bruno: breathe, fugo.

[sleepymarmot]

I think Martin’s stance in the argument in MAG 194 was consistent with the opinions he’d voiced before. 

Long post with a lot of quotes under the cut.

Martin’s Mindset

1) Killing avatars is good even if they seem nice (the line Martin draws is at killing a child):

172: [Jon: I don’t think he’s evil.] Oh, yeah, sure; he’s probably a really kind, benevolent ruler of a hellish fear prison.

173: Wh, What about the Avatar? I know you said it didn’t change anything, th-the domain would still exist, but at this point I don’t care, alright? Anyone who’s chosen to spend their apocalypse tormenting children – God, you need to end them. Now.

174: Why not [kill Simon]? Because he was nice to you? Because he was charming, because he was fun? 

174: You’re removing evil from the world.

2) Making new avatars is not good:

184: [Jordan: What is this?] [Thin-lipped] Yeah, I’m curious about that myself.

184: [Jordan: Why?] Good question. Jon? Care to enlighten us?

184: [Jon: Didn’t want to just watch you suffer.] It’s what you’ve been doing for everyone else. It’s what you’re expecting him to do.

3) Being at peace with one’s existence as an avatar is bad:

185: Would he enjoy it? (...) Leave him.

186: But I can’t keep existing like this at their expense. It’s not… it’s not right. Whatever happens with Elias, W-with the rest of the world… I can’t live on the misery of others.

186: I get it, okay? I can’t decide what happens to them. But… I just might be able to decide what happens to me. And… And if it comes down to it…I’ll get John to destroy me like the others.

4) Being the one to decide who benefits and who suffers is a terrible responsibility:

185: [Jon: I’m sorry I put you in that position.] No, you were right to. That’s… that’s a lot of power to have to deal with. Lot of responsibility.

“And what? Replace them with new avatars from the people who don’t want to?”

Martin was very enthusiastic about killing avatars, yes. But the reverse? Not really. Both times the idea of turning the Watched into Watchers came up, it was Jon’s initiative. 184 is self-evident, but even in 185, where Martin is the one to make the decision, it’s Jon who asks him:

Inspector: You’ve got to help me! Jon: Martin? What do you think? Martin: What? Jon: I decided about Jordan. This place is from your past.

“I saw the kick you got out of making them scream for once”

I think this part of the argument caught many of us off guard. We all remember how much Martin pushed Jon towards killing avatars despite Jon’s discomfort, ethical dubiousness and practical pointlessness of that endeavour. But Martin isn’t simply projecting his own feelings onto Jon -- he did enjoy that too, this did not come out of nowhere this week:

166:

Helen: Oh, hello! In a better mood, are we? Feeling more secure now you’ve learned how to kill? Jon: Something like that.

Martin: I don’t see why you were being so coy about it – Jon: Because I’m ashamed, Martin. Martin: Ashamed?! Jon: Yes! Ashamed of the fact that I just – destroyed the world and have been rewarded for it, the fact that – I can walk safe through all this horror I’ve created like a… fucking tourist, destroying whoever I please. The fact that I… enjoyed it, and… the fact that there are so many others that I want to revenge myself on!

169:

Martin: John, is there another way? Jon: I mean – sort of? Maybe? Martin: That turn. You – You took a hard turn after the roots back there; I knew that was a thing! Why are we here? Jon: It’s just – when you said – Martin: Jon, why have you taken us here? Jon: Jude Perry. This is where Jude Perry rules. Martin: That’s the one who burned your hand, isn’t it? Jon: Yes.

Jon: I want revenge on Jude Perry. I want to… smite her. Make her feel what – What all her victims felt.  

Jon: I’m here for you, Jude. To end you. Jude: (...) You’re bluffing. Jon: You know I’m not. You’re already afraid. Jude: Oh, I see. I get it. You finally get a sniff of power, and the first thing you do is try to settle some old scores. Play the big man; get off on good old-fashioned petty revenge. Jon: I’d have thought that was a mindset you would appreciate. Now, feel it. All the terror and pain you’ve inflicted. Jude: Oh, piss off –  Look, look. Wait. Right? I’m sorry, okay? I shouldn’t have burned your hand. Jon: No. You shouldn’t have.

171:

Martin: Why didn’t we go after the landlord guy? In the tenement. (...) Jon: It didn’t seem worth it. I didn’t – hate him like I hated her. He never hurt me.

174:

Jon: I just – This whole… avenging angel thing, I, I’m not – It doesn’t feel right. Martin: It seemed to feel right when we were avenging all the wrongs done against you. Jon: I know. I, I, I know, alright? But well – That’s kind of the problem; I, I have all this – power, and, and I want to use it to try to help, but I – I don’t know – I mean, I do. I-I’ve done so much damage, and – and anything that might help to balance that is – But killing other Avatars is, is not – I, I don’t think it makes anything better. I think it just makes me worse.

“You weren’t meant to enjoy [Kill Bill] this much!”

Initially, Martin enthusiastically suggested killing avatars because he thought it would improve the world:

166: 

Martin: Th, This isn’t like it was before! We’re not talking about innocent bystanders in cafes here, Jon; these things are – th-they’re just evil, plain and simple, and right now they’re torturing and tormenting everyone! If you want to stop them and have the power to, then – then, then yeah, let’s do it, let’s go full Kill Bill!

169:

Martin: It’s not just your revenge though, is it? Destroying her… it would help all those people in there, wouldn’t it? Jon: Maybe? It’s… Like I said, I can’t see the future. It wouldn’t free them, if that’s what you’re asking. ‘Free’ doesn’t really exist in this place.

Jon: She’s gone. Martin: The fires are still here. Doesn’t look like much has changed. Jon: No. I suppose not. Martin: Let’s just get out of here.

171:

Martin: Why didn’t we go after the landlord guy? In the tenement. Jon: Arthur Nolan? Martin: Yeah. He’s still there, right? Jon: After Jude, th,the fires – I,I didn’t want to put you through anymore. Martin: Don’t do that. Jon: What? Martin: Don’t use me as an excuse. Jon: I-I’m not. I just – It didn’t seem worth it. I didn’t – hate him like I hated her. He never hurt me. Martin: But all the people inside. Jon: Killing Nolan wouldn’t have made it stop. It would just leave it – unsupervised. Martin: John – we are doing good, right? Making things better? Jon: I don’t know if that was ever an option.

173:

Martin: We’ve got to help them. Jon: How? Martin: I – I don’t know! I’m not the one who’s supposed to know everything, alright? There has to be something we can do!

Martin: Wh, What about the Avatar? I know you said it didn’t change anything, th-the domain would still exist, but at this point I don’t care, alright? Anyone who’s chosen to spend their apocalypse tormenting children – God, you need to end them. Now.

Jon: You see? Martin: See what, John; what am I supposed to see? That you don’t want to kill a – thirteen year old kid? Big revelation. Jon: I don’t know what you want me to do. Martin: I want you to use your power. I want you to help them; I want you to make things better! Jon: There is no better anymore. Martin: You keep – saying that, and I hate it! Jon: I keep saying it because it keeps being true; you know that! Martin: What I know, is that leaving children here is – (struggles for words) i-it’s inexcusable; it’s monstrous! Jon: Martin. Tell me what you want me to do, and I will do it!

Martin: Let’s get out of here. Jon: If you’re sure. Martin: The sooner we get back to the Archives, the sooner we can put a stop to this. All of this. They just – They’ll just need to hang on a little longer.

174:

Martin: You’re removing evil from the world. Jon: I, I’m not though, am I? The tenement fire is still burning. The mortal garden is growing wild. The carousel –

Hypocrisy?

As we see in the quotes above, both Jon and Martin were swept up by the feeling of newfound power and the idea of revenge. For Jon, pessimistic about the state of the world and personally hurt by some of the avatars they encountered on the road, it was mostly about personal vengeance. Martin, on the other hand, doesn’t have such a painful history with the avatars whose domains they pass, and the lack of Beholding-sourced knowledge and despair allows him to hold onto a false hope, making this an ideologically driven crusade.

With this in mind, let’s go back to 194:

Martin: I know what it’s like to be powerless. A-And I know you do too. And I also know what it’s like when you get a taste of– wh-when you’re finally able to– 

Jon: What happened to “Kill Bill”? Martin: You weren’t meant to enjoy it this much!

These lines sound a lot like regret. Maybe I’m overestimating Martin’s level of self-awareness here, but it seems he has realized they both got drunk on power, and he pushed Jon in a direction he shouldn’t have. Unfortunately, in the heat of the moment he puts all blame on Jon instead of taking responsibility for his own actions. Let’s hope that he apologizes later!

To be entirely clear, I think that the way Martin consistently treats Jon like a gun instead of a person in this subplot is in itself a problem. When Jon is ashamed of enjoying vengeance too much, Martin doesn’t like it; when he lets himself enjoy it, Martin disapproves too as we now know. Let’s look at three crucial points in the storyline side by side:

166:

Martin: Sure. Okay, that’s – I mean, that’s really not that complicated, John; I don’t see why you were being so coy about it – Jon: Because I’m ashamed, Martin. Martin: Ashamed?! Jon: Yes! Ashamed of the fact that I just – destroyed the world and have been rewarded for it, the fact that – I can walk safe through all this horror I’ve created like a… fucking tourist, destroying whoever I please. The fact that I… enjoyed it, and… the fact that there are so many others that I want to revenge myself on! Martin: …No; No, I actually think you’re good on that front. Jon: What? Martin: Yeah, I, I, I think we should go for it, get our murder on! Jon: Sorry, what? Helen: Yes, Martin! Martin: Th, This isn’t like it was before! We’re not talking about innocent bystanders in cafes here, Jon; these things are – th-they’re just evil, plain and simple, and right now they’re torturing and tormenting everyone! If you want to stop them and have the power to, then – then, then yeah, let’s do it, let’s go full Kill Bill!

174 (I left in some of the unofficial transcript’s stage directions to keep the picture clear):

Martin:That’s enough. John? Jon: Uh… yes? Martin: Do it. Simon: Uhh… Do what? Martin: Kill him. Jon: Uh – Simon: Hang on. Can he do that? Martin: (forceful) He can, and he’s going to! Simon: Oh! Right! Seems a bit rude, to be honest. Jon: Oh, oh… okay, um. Martin: Jon? Jon: J-Just give me a moment! I, uh, I – Simon: I-In fact, yes! You know what? I’ll, I’ll probably just be going, then – I, I – I’d prefer to keep existing, if it’s all the same to you, uhm – Martin: J-Jon! Jon: I – Simon: (fast) Been lovely chatting to you! Good to see you guys. Feel free to pop by again when you’re feeling less, um, murdery. Martin: (yelling) Jon! Simon: Byeee! Martin: You let him go. Jon: (weary) Yeah. Martin: Why? Jon: Because, uh… uh – Martin: (cutting him off) Why did you let him go, John?

194: 

Martin: I know what it’s like to be powerless. A-And I know you do too. And I also know what it’s like when you get a taste of– wh-when you’re finally able to– Jon: That’s not what this is! Martin: I’ve been out there with you. I saw the kick you got out of making them scream for once. Jon: What happened to “Kill Bill”? Martin: You weren’t meant to enjoy it this much!

Looks like Martin assumed Jon’s desire for vengeance to be righteous anger. And didn’t like the realization that Jon’s murderous urges -- or his own, in Oliver and Simon’s cases -- are something darker, more personal and irrational.

Conclusion

When Martin had pressured Jon to act, it was done out of hope and idealism (misguided or not, we’ll see). He didn’t simply want Jon to do something -- he wanted him to make the world better. Call it naive, wilfully blind, unfair to Jon -- I’ve had my own share of frustration with Martin this season -- but he has had a very specific and consistent agenda. Sometimes both Jon and Martin are motivated by a personal grudge -- Jon against Not!Them and Jude and Jared, Martin against Oliver and Simon -- but overall, Martin thinks that this quest removes evil from the world.

What Jon proposes in 194 goes against all of Martin’s beliefs and wishes:

The total amount of evil is not reduced

New avatars are created

Jon appoints himself the one and only ultimate judge

By giving in to the Eye:

Jon lets it have what it had wanted all along, lets it win

Jon abandons morality for power

Jon abandons humanity and Martin for the inhuman evil happiness he can’t help but crave

Accepting this is at least as bad as doing nothing at all -- and perhaps even worse.

So I don’t think Martin’s being particularly irrational during the argument. Some of the things he says may be unfair, harsh, even cruel. You can say it was hypocritical of him to accuse Jon of enjoying the killing spree too much, since he was the one who proposed it and kept pushing Jon towards it with great enthusiasm. His “I forbid it” may be naive and childishly petulant, and this mindset might lead him to making bad choices in the future. But I don’t think he was projecting his own feelings onto Jon, or pulling arguments out of nowhere.