#❛ — dynamic / lydia & charles.

[girlbeyondthegrave]

I Watched Beetlejuice Beetlejuice a Third Time: More Things I Noticed

Here’s my previous list for those that haven’t read it. Enjoy!

A lot of people on this post I made thought that the dog in the MacArthur Park sequence was Taco from the Ghosthouse segment where Beetlejuice appears in the audience. I am sad to report this is not the case. Taco is a chihuahua, and the dog that appears is more of a terrier. However, some people on Reddit wonder if the dog is the one that ran out in front of the Maitlands’ car and killed them. I haven’t rewatched the first movie yet to check.

When Beetlejuice stitches Lydia’s mouth shut, she’s more exasperated than afraid. She literally tries to yell, “COME ON!”

Beetlejuice looks so offended on Lydia’s behalf when Rory calls her codependent. Like, “Is he serious right now? Get him, babe!”

Beetlejuice appearing before Delia can finish summoning him furthers the eavesdropping theory I made in my earlier post, and if we go off that theory, we can explain by Beetlejuice wasn’t that bothered by being summoned away at the wedding. He’s overheard Lydia’s desire to take her relationships slow and her reluctance to marriage. (Which is most definitely because of him and the fact that the last living person she loved tragically died—even if their relationship was over before that point.)

In the film, Beetlejuice is the ONLY person that agrees to help Delia find Charles, which we see her do at the end of the movie. This means that Beetlejuice kept his word and helped Delia, and he didn’t keep her away from Charles after the wedding fell through.

“MacArthur Park” plays when the studio intros roll, during the wedding sequence, and the end credits—three times when we have three different iterations of Beetlejuice and Lydia’s dynamic, fun fact. This is meant to be their song, and although the song is about a doomed relationship, this part sticks out to me: “After all the loves of my life / You’ll still be the one.” It doesn’t matter if Beetlejuice gets the timing right. It doesn’t matter if Lydia marries him. He considers her “the one.” He’s always going to wait for her, as conveyed by “Right Here Waiting.”

Astrid opens pages about violation 699 and summoning sandworms via trapdoors. I understand that was meant to “foreshadow” later events and explain why she knew how to do those things, but the terms for 699 are barely on-screen, so it’s hard to catch the part where it lays out how bringing Lydia illegally into the afterlife makes her contract null and void.

When Delores appears at the church, there’s a huge gust of wind, and the Handbook moves, but NOTHING ELSE MOVES with that precision until Delores moves Lydia away from the altar. This is kind of a stretch, but I personally think it’s possible that Beetlejuice saw Delores, and he purposefully sent the book in Astrid’s direction. If we go off my eavesdropping theory, he clearly knows Astrid is a smart girl. Plus, he stopped her from getting to the book earlier, so he knows it’s a threat.

When Beetlejuice has a dramatic entrance or exit, it’s very intentional. He does a whole dramatic couple’s therapy bit for Lydia and Rory. He does the earthquake through the model with a slow rise from the smoke. But we’ve also seen him appear in straightforward ways, too, like how he appears randomly to spook Delia. Beetlejuice controls his entrances and exits, and so his dramatic exit at the end is intentional. He allows Lydia to send him away. He makes a big show of it. Lydia has been manipulated by Rory for years. He’s tried to control her and stifle her. When Beetlejuice lets Lydia send him away and makes a big show of it, he’s demonstrating the amount of control he’s giving to Lydia. He goes because SHE wants him to, not because he can’t stop her from saying his name.

(Editing to say that this post confirms the dog is Tim’s dog.)

[eyecan02]

What I Feel Should Be Included in BJ3

1.) We need to go back to the original film's roots. The first BJ film was practically a "bottle" film where the film mostly took place inside the Deetz home. I feel the story needs to come full circle by having the story mainly within that house again.

2.) The model town also has to make a return. The last time the model was mentioned, Lydia wanted to chop it up and burn it, but seeing as we never see the board onscreen again, I think it's safe to assume Lydia just simply boarded up the the attic door once more.

3.) The return of Juno or introduce a Juno-like character. I know the original Juno actress passed on, but one option could be to recast and greatly alter the appearance like what they did with Charles but a lot less mangled. Some backstory on her and BJ's dynamic/specifics on his curse could be interesting.

4.) They need to make it harder this time to banish Beetlejuice. They need to even the playing field, and throw in a curve ball for Lydia where she can't just simply say his name 3 times to send him away. Maybe Beetlejuice can somehow find an object that causes confusion/makes you forget like the Rememberball (sp?) from Harry Potter.

5.) I know Keaton was against a lot of BJ screen time, but since this is the final installment, I think if they evenly spread out a couple minutes of him here and there, it won't ruin the "magic". Random example but Chris Hemsworth only had like 30 min of screen time in the first Avengers film, but it definitely feels like he's onscreen more. Not saying there should be an hour worth of Beetlejuice screen time but maybe 30-35 of screen time spread out could work.

6.) If Lydia is going to willingly marry BJ this time then the two of them need to TALK more in part 3. This time around they can talk about how BJ fell for her, what he likes about her, about Lydia's anxieties, her being at a crossroads with her show being over, making Astrid a priority, BJ cheering her up, making her laugh, BJ also sharing personal stuff and scaring off Astrid's bullies.

7.) Exploring BJ and Lydia's psychic connection. This time she can project herself to him if she needs to, and he's able to temporarily share his powers with her. Maybe a scene of Lydia possessing BJ to dance as payback, but it ends up leading to a playful and energetic dance number where they both end up having fun together.

8.) Delores and BJ somehow switch places where she gets his curse where if you say her name 3 times she gets summoned/banished and gets locked up in BJs old grave. Beetlejuice is now the new "soul sucker" who turns to Rory and says, "I'm taking back every last shred of Lydia you took from her." and proceeds to suck out his soul, burp and says he tastes like shit. Beetlejuice raises his hand and pressed it against Lydia's, essentially returning the stolen "energy" her toxic ex bf took from her.

9.) The wedding actually happens this time at the Deetz home because third times the charm, and because BJ losing a third time is boring and predictable. BUT there's a curveball: Beetlejuice can't leave the house until he can find someone to pass his "soul sucking" powers to (since it would be dangerous for a mortal to be walking around freely with that kind of ability).

BJ is irritated by the turn of events, but says he finally got his bride and promises someday he'll take Lydia to Hawaii for their honeymoon but in the mean time they can get plenty of practice for their honeymoon in their home. XD He then gives Astrid some money to "scram" and go to the movies to give them some privacy and to "come back after the cigarettes part". Then proceeds to carry Lydia up the stairs bridal style.

What do you guys think of my ideas? What kind of stuff do you think is essential for a BJ3 film?

[creepers-creatures07]

I’m so nervous to post this

I saw Beetlejuice Beetlejuice yesterday and I really liked it. Some parts I felt like they were too quick or there was more potential to it, but I still thought it was good.

SPOILERS

I did like this movie, I loved that they used practical effects rather than cgi (I especially loved the claymation of Charles’ death) and I loved that Micheal Keaton could still play Beetlejuice (including the rest of the cast that reprised their roles).

I will say this, and I don’t want anyone to attack me, this is my opinion and I’m okay if you don’t agree with me, just like how I don’t agree with your opinion but I’m not attacking you, please respect my opinion… I do not ship Beetlejuice and Lydia (do not attack me or send me death threats. I do not hate this ship, it’s just not my cup of tea but if you like it then I’m not going to judge you, and I expect you to do the same for me, please). But I really did like their dynamic here, I feel like Beetlejuice was less pervy to Lydia and he respected her which I like (seems like he got a bit of character growth) and I had a lot of fun watching them get married (almost) again and Beetlejuice taking control of everyone and making them sing.

I also loved Delores, I love her design and that she was Beetlejuice’s wife. Speaking of them, I also liked how their backstory was told (I also head canon Beetlejuice to be Italian since he literally spoke Italian). The only thing I wish was that Delores got more screen time and more was done to her character because I feel like she got defeated too easily. I really hope she returns for the triquel because you can’t just leave off an interesting character like her and I think she deserves the spotlight!

I liked Astrid too, I know some people don’t like Jenna Ortega but I thought she was okay, but I did think her subplot with Jeremy was kind of whatever (but I did like the plot twist and I wish there was more to his character because he was only around for like 20 minutes and then he was sent to Hell).

There’s not much else to say, this movie wasn’t a masterpiece but I say it was a good enough sequel and I will watch it again, and some parts of the movie felt a little nostalgic like especially the beginning with the credits, I loved that.

I can’t wait to see what the third movie will be like because I have a feeling there will be one.

Also R.I.P Bob, you will be missed.

[wolf-tail]

So I recently read this fic and now I'm hooked on the idea of Lydia deciding that BJ is her big brother. Not only does it create a super cute dynamic between them, it forces the rest of the family to act like that's always been the case.

Charles now has to pretend that yes, that walking corpse from literal hell is definitely his normal alive human son who has definitely been at college this entire time, that's why he's never even been mentioned before.

[the-wager-au]

I absolutely love your AU comic. I came across it somewhat recently and immediately fell in love with it. I know you mentioned recently that it's been a struggle but I really hope to see more from you in the future!

Thank you sm, I'm fighting for my life out here 😭

The struggle is worth it when nice folk like you take the time to tell me what u like about it. The reason I started the comic was cuz I had such a specific Vision™️ of the musical but I couldn't talk in depth about the characters and dynamics cuz nobody had the Context, yknow? I'd be like "omg the mutual destruction of Betelgeuse and Lydia's dynamic, the way he saved her from her dad and she saved him in a way he didnt know he needed to be saved" and ppl would be like "... thats not... quite how i remember it going" lmao

Anyways I hope you're ready for Delia and Lydia having a more fascinating relationship and Otho being around from the get-go as Delia's chaotic, gay ex-husband, and Charles' mental decline being uncomfortably realistic and his relationship with his daughter tragically conflicted and and and-!!!

[bethanydelleman]

This is perhaps a silly question but did couples in Jane Austen's time always refer to each other by Mr./Mrs. Lastname? It's something I noticed with all of them (even Mrs. Elliot who is very liberal in that regard, much to Emma's dismay). And it's not just in company either, Mrs. Bennet does it in front of their daughters and Lady Bertram when she's alone with Sir Thomas. It just seems very cold and distant in modern times.

Yes, it does feel weird to us and yes that appears to be what they do. In addition, many of the children call their parents "sir" and "ma'am". This is a much more formal society. I would feel just as weird calling someone my own age “Miss Lastname”! However, I know a lot of couples who refer to themselves and their spouses as "Mom" and "Dad" instead of their actual names in front of their kids, so it’s not totally divorced from our society now.

Anyway, one of the reasons we don't know a lot of first names of parents is because they only call each other Mr. and Mrs. Lastname. The exceptions are Admiral Croft, who calls his wife Sophy (her name is Sophia) and Mary and Charles Musgrove. John Mullen argued in his book What Matters in Jane Austen that this shows the contempt that M&C have for each other, but they are almost always among family and they are the same generation as Anne, so that might be why they use their first names. Mrs. Croft never calls Admiral Croft his first name back, by the way.

There also may have been a change in manners between the earlier and later novels. We hear women call men “Lastname” in S&S and P&P, but not in the later novels, then only men use that short form. Emma is highly offended that Mrs. Elton would say “Knightley”, though that may have more to do with their recent intimacy than a social rule, and Mrs. Elton does always refer to her husband as “Mr.” even if she shortens his last name into “E.”

What I find very interesting is that if you pay attention to when Mr., Mrs., Miss, and names are used, you can see how one character thinks of another. Fanny Price always thinks of Mr. and Miss Crawford, never Henry and Mary, even when other characters become less formal around them. When Elizabeth talks to Wickham (post-marriage to Lydia), Wickham uses the informal “Darcy” but all Elizabeth’s thoughts use the formal “Mr. Darcy”. Mr. Bingley is just referred to as “Bingley” about 50% of the time, but “Darcy” only about 30%. This probably has to do with the characters disliking him, but also with his station in society. Even the narrator is respectful!

Which is why I actually love the formal names/Christian names dynamic because you can get so much information just by how people refer to each other. Charlotte Lucas, Elizabeth’s friend, calls her “Eliza” and we can understand this as a representation of their intimacy. Yet when Caroline calls Elizabeth, “Miss Eliza”, it is rude, she hasn’t earned the privilege of a nickname. Similarly, Mary Crawford calling Miss Price “Fanny” before she is actually engaged to Henry is too much too soon, especially since Fanny has not extended this right in friendship.

And when Wentworth says, “but if Anne will stay, no one so proper, so capable as Anne.” It’s not just the praise, he says her first name. It is a sign, on second reading, that his feelings for her have returned.

Last note, given how formal Mr. Darcy is and how respectfully Elizabeth refers to him even when they are engaged, they are calling each other Mr. and Mrs. Darcy everywhere except the bedroom! At least that's what I suspect.

[bunnys-beetlejuice-blog]

btw i finally got to see the beetlejuice tour in LA and, a few things: tour barbara is. on a whole other level of cute. i want a boot just so i can watch her and relisten to her line delivery because she was out of this world so dorky mom adorable it really reaffirmed my love for her as a character. she takes her earings off to fight juno, she's constantly gently touching adam and comforting him, her little giggles are precious, she does her own version of the goofy voice that kerry used to do, she's just so... barbara!!!!! isabella fucking killed it as lydia, she was amazing, absolutely no notes. they added a cute little exchange when the maitlands leave the attic with lydia to haunt charles where adam nervously tries to bring the bedsheets with them, and barbara encourages him that they dont need the sheets, and i dunno it was just. gah. love that maitland dynamic. also when barb raises her hand and asks "why are we in the attic" beetlejuice grabbed her wrist and high fived her a bunch of times until she put her hand down and i just thought that was so cute and charming. in my deranged mind im like wow they held hands very beautiful very powerful

[amateurmagic]

Beetlejuice headcanon/mini fic that just popped into my head. I’ve heard some criticism that The Ghost with the Most leaves for the Netherworld at the end of the show, even after he’s made amends with everyone and even when Juno is no longer an issue. Now I love a good found family trope as much as the next person (my AO3 history will agree lol) but what if he went into the Netherworld to find Lydia’s mother?

As a disclaimer, I’ve never seen the Tim Burton film or any of the cartoon or comics, so idk if it’s elaborated somewhere else. But if Juno is gone and therefore the regulations lifted from the entryways, what’s to stop ghosts from leaving the Netherworld?

So some amount of months to years pass and Lydia and the Deetzlands have all adjusted to their strange and unusual family dynamic. Lydia enters the living room, maybe on the way to the kitchen for a homework snack, and stops in her tracks, notebooks and pens clattering to the floor as she registers two familiar figures standing in the middle of the room. BJ launches into some monologue about how arduous it was searching through the vastness of the Netherworld and how many Sandworms he had to fend off in order to bring Emily back to the portal and that Miss Argentina sends her regards, but Lydia can’t bring herself to make a sound, her eyes still stuck on the translucent, but intensely familiar form of her mother. Eventually another grownup (my brain imagines Charles, bc obvi) enters the room to investigate the sound of things being dropped and respond in a similar manner to Lydia, attention captured by the sudden reappearance of Beetlejuice and his new ghostly companion.

Lydia eventually managed to break the silence with a shaky and disbelieving “…Mom?”

Emily smiles in response, her arms opening in an invitation. Her touch is now cool, like mist, and she doesn’t smell the same anymore due to her status of deceased, but Lydia is simply glad that she doesn’t phase through her like she feared she would.

Sometime during his journeys in the Netherworld, Beetlejuice has learned the power and value of silence, settling to lean back against the banister of the stairs with the other assembled adults, content to let this reunion play out without him. Eventually, he finds himself being dragged forward into a hug by a joyfully tearful Lydia, her dark eyeliner now running down her face.

“Welcome home,” are the only words she can say.

A/N: maybe one day I’ll expand on this more and write an actual fic, but, for now, this is the best I’ve got

Also, barring the whole green card thing, Lydia and BJ are strictly friends/chaotic family here

[hey-that-hurt]

The following Beetlejuice contract au musings brought to you by @rocketonin because they made me realize that if I want it to at least be possible for this AU to turn into something big I should probably figure out what the plot’s trajectory is before I write myself into a corner

Anyway. What would happen long term? Though the circumstances are very messy I still want this to fundamentally be a redemption story.

To me, that means that things have to eventually end on an optimistic note for Beetlejuice. I don’t want him to give up and decide that he’d rather isolate himself than deal with the contract, but I also don’t want him to be worn down to a shell of his former self, to suppress his anger and blunt his teeth so the family will never have any reason to get rid of him.

I think I’d like him to fluctuate between these two points, resenting his situation so much that he’s tempted to leave and accepting it to the point he’s no longer the same person. Both ways to escape the pain of his situation.

Honestly, the smartest thing for Beetlejuice to do here would probably be to leave. He’s effectively trapped in an abusive dynamic where he’s almost entirely dependent on his abusers to realize how awful their behavior is and choose to change it. And that’s what I plan to happen, but he doesn’t know that.

But, as is often the case with abusive relationships, he doesn’t feel like he has anywhere else to go, and he thinks that the messed up love he’s currently getting is more than anyone else would give him.

He might be able to eventually make some friends in the netherworld, but currently the impression he’s getting is that pretty much everyone down there hates him. He could go back to wandering the surface, but then he’s back in the same hopeless, horribly lonely position he started in.

And based on Juno saying “you were so desperate for somebody to love you that you act like a damn fool”, we can guess that she’s said some pretty terrible things about his chances of ever being loved.

Basically his situation super super sucks, and leaving would be a good idea, but I’m gonna say that his relationship with everyone is very unfortunately still one of the most positive relationships he’s ever been in. Lydia actually enjoys his company and wants to spend time with him, the Maitlands are fairly nice to him, Delia is weird with him and not unkind, and Charles… well, Charles isn’t as bad as his mother was, so there’s that at least.

It’s the closest he’s ever felt to being loved and as long as that almost-love is there he’s not going to be able to tear himself away from it.

It’s the same reason he signed the contract in the first place. He knew it was a terrible idea, but the fact that they presented it to him at all meant that, in a way, they wanted him.

So that’s what stops him from leaving. But what’s stopping him from giving up the other way around?

I think it would take a long time for the circumstances to genuinely start to alter Beetlejuice’s personality, but there are still a lot of coping mechanisms he could develop. Coping mechanisms that he developed to cope with his abusive mother and severe isolation could also start to rear their head again.

The main way Beetlejuice seems to react to feeling hurt is anger and violence… except when his mom comes into the picture. With her… I wouldn’t say he’s obedient, but it’s like he turns into a whiny child in trouble with their parent. Interestingly, that’s the sort of behavior I would except from a kid that frustrated with their parent’s actions, but not a kid who was afraid— and Beetlejuice radiates fear when Juno shows up. When she starts insulting him, his face turns distraught, he frantically looks around like he’s searching for an escape route or someone to help. And then he pleads with her again. I wonder if the embarrassment was bravado, in a way. It’s a situation that would be horribly embarrassing, but I think he may be playing up that emotion in order to hide his terror.

In Say My Name, we see him rapidly switch from showboating to begging and back again. It seems like the less power he has in a situation, the more he resorts to pleading, bargaining.

I think that as his frustration with situation grows, the more he would start to jump between anger and pleading— and the anger would likely result in retaliation depending on who he takes it out on, so the pleading would start to win out. I think the pleading would vary in intensity too. With Lydia, yes, he begged, but it was different to how he was with Juno. With Lydia, he was pleading for help, but with Juno he pleaded for mercy.

I don’t think he’d start out afraid of anyone, except maybe Lydia a bit. As time goes on though, the urge to be clever, annoying, or otherwise rebellious might have to fight against the knowledge that any member of the household can force him to stop those behaviors. Pain would rarely be guaranteed, but I imagine that there would be something nauseating about having to suppress yourself to such a degree. He’d constantly have to choose between making himself behave acceptably or being forced to under threat of pain.

… oh god, it would be like wearing a bark collar. Even if he can eventually find people to retract unfair orders, for the duration that the order is active he’d still be effectively getting trained to behave in whatever manner the order demanded.

I decided not to have the contact enforced via mind control/compulsion, but I honestly wonder now if the long-term psychological damage of this method would be worse.

Losing control of yourself due to mind control would certainly be traumatic, but I feel like once the magic was gone so would any urges to behave as you had been ordered to.

But Beetlejuice… he has to learn to adjust his behavior himself. He has to learn to comply almost instinctually, because if he forgets and behaves as he always does it’s going to hurt.

And that means the behavior is going to linger.

… I think that early on, Beetlejuice would be angry a lot, but maybe he’d hold himself back. He chose to sign the contract, he knew what he was doing, and he wants to make a good impression so maybe they’ll actually want to keep him around. This might be when he would be willing to actively annoy Charles— apparently not letting him come back without a contract was his idea anyway. Thus, this would also probably be around the time that the closet incident would happen. He’d probably be pretty whiny during this period too, complaining about the rules being annoying and asking for them to be changed. He’d hang out with Lydia as much as possible, and they’d have a pretty good time.

Before long though, Beetlejuice wouldn’t be able to keep a lid on his temper anymore. Towards the end of this period is probably about where his fallout with the Maitlands would happen. I think he’d also have at least one fight with Lydia, maybe multiple, and she’d order him around more in retaliation. He’d start pushing the limits of his rules as much as he could, trying to upset people, see if he can destroy anything in ways that the contract doesn’t count as destructive, maybe even taking advantage of people being nice and revoking rules, which would cause conflict between other household members. This would result in him being given a lot of very restrictive orders. He’d probably consider leaving at this point, but would ultimately decide he can’t bring himself to.

The aftermath of his angry period would be where his actions would start to reflect fear. Maybe at some point someone actually taught him some grounding exercises for his anger, and he starts to use them to calm himself down so he doesn’t try to break any rules and get hurt in the midst of an outburst. He starts pleading again, but it’s more like how he was with Juno. He starts hiding, reducing the amount of time he spends in places where people can easily see and interact with him (and thus order him around). Orders he’s had for a long time that he used to have to concentrate on obeying become natural to him. He still hangs out with Lydia, plays the part of her friend. Does his job. Makes sure he’ll still be wanted. Lydia notices the downturn in his mood and starts trying to be nicer to him.

The Maitlands, seeing what’s happening, finally decide they need to put a stop to this. Tense discussions are had. I don’t think they’d remove the contract fully, but they’d dismiss pretty much every rule.

Things start to improve. People stop intentionally giving Beetlejuice orders, and accidental orders are quickly revoked. Relationships are improving, and anyone who didn’t fully think of Beetlejuice as a person is starting to now. However, the psychological effects the ordeal has had on Beetlejuice are apparent.

I’m not entirely sure how Beetlejuice would react at this turning point. I think that at some point there would be anger, but it would take a while because of how good at suppressing it he’d be at this point. By this point his mindset of ‘they want me here to be useful, not because they care, but that’s good enough’ would be super internalized. Having the rules be taken away might even be anxiety-inducing, because what if he messes up and they don’t want him anymore and he went through all of this for nothing? He’d keep obeying a lot of rules by himself, which Charles and Delia might see as good while the Maitlands and Lydia might be concerned.

Eventually, there would start to be some mutual trust. Beetlejuce would stop expecting to be ordered around every time he does something that bothers someone. Some behaviors from the orders would remain, but he’d gradually learn where the lines were and his reason for keeping those behaviors would gradually transition from fear and habit to genuinely not wanting to upset people. And one day, the contract would be dismissed, or maybe altered such that Beetlejuice wouldn’t have to live in fear of being forced to leave.

[bjfinn]

Character ask game! 5, 11 and 20 for charles deetz:3

Ooh, good choice!

What's the first song that comes to mind when I think about them?

"That's Life" by Frank Sinatra -- the man lost his wife, and then had to leave his high-pressure, high-paying career as a minor real estate mogul because he had a mental breakdown and moves his family to another state to start over. This man personifies this song.

Would I date this character?

Have you seen him??? In a New York minute! (Adam Dannheiser is hot! 🤤)

Which other character is the ideal best friend for this character?

This is a really interesting question! First, there's the power dynamics involved: Lydia is his daughter and a minor, so ultimately he's in charge -- he can refuse to allow her to do something she might feel she should be able to (get a tattoo, for instance). Then there's Delia -- she's his girlfriend (later wife), so theoretically his equal, but she's easily swayed (remember Otho's influence?). And as for the Maitlands? Well, Adam is a really nice guy, but he may be too milquetoast for them to be best friends. And Barbara, being a woman, would probably not qualify in his mind -- Charles strikes me as the kind of man who believes that a man and a woman can't be "just friends" (unless, of course, they're married to other people).

So that leaves Beej.

Strange as it might seem, I think Beej would be the best best friend for Charles -- more than anyone else, he can get Charles to loosen up and stop being such a straight-laced stick in the mud. Even in the musical, when Beej tells Charles "Don't ever change", Charles smiles warmly and says "I already have." As well, in the wedding scene when Juno is dragging Beej back to Hell, Charles reaches for him, trying to save him. So even before Beej returns and kills his mother (saving everyone, I might add!), we see that Charles has developed some feelings for the guy. I think there's a lot of potential there for a real friendship to blossom between them. Now if Beej would just stop trying to get into everybody's

pants ... 😆

Thanks for this!

[princelydisaster]

I have the inexorable urge to rant about a character I’m obsessed with that much of the fandom hates

Anyway fuck it.

I understand that a lot of people dislike Charles Quigley (for good reason) but I keep getting burned by finding fanfics and posts tagged with the character that only feature him to make fun of him or something

Honestly if you are writing a fanfic in the Harlots ‘verse and don’t want to include him, there is no shame in writing him out. (Or any other character for that matter.)

Have a throwaway line where someone says he went to visit a friend for a month or something.

That could also introduce things like more tension because Lydia might be more stressed / worried about having her precious baby mid 30s boy out of the house. Maybe she’s more prone to lashing out. Maybe she’s distracted and her rivals like Margaret get more bold about taking action against her.

It introduces a lot of interesting things that could work for a number of fanfic plots.

…Okay that’s it for people who don’t want to include him in fanfics, I’m gonna discuss things I think could be explored in fanfic below.

Note that because this show has a lot of interconnected characters I also talk a lot about Lydia, Emily, and Nancy for some reason.

TW: discussions of abusive relationships, incest, sex trafficking, kidnapping, murder (stuff that’s in the show)

I’ve seen someone say before that Charles is one of the few straight male characters on the show who’s important because of his part in fleshing out female characters via relationships.

I can see that. I think the nature of the show means that he as a man - a passive one at that - wouldn’t get a lot of screen time.

The point about him being important relationship wise is really interesting. Tbh, the early-mid season 1 interactions between Emily and Lydia remind me of the trope of a dad running to chase away his daughter’s boyfriend with a shotgun.

There’s that gender flipped part where women aren’t usually given as much sexual agency in tv/film etc, but also I like that it’s not played off as a kinda quirky “overprotective” parent thing, but the show recognizes how toxic this dynamic is.

You can argue in the gun toting dad example it’s sometimes bc the daughter is underage, but still, there’s often that undercurrent of a parent being threatened by their child getting a romantic partner and “replacing” them.

This is a big part of the Lydia and Charles relationship imo. I would characterize it as a nuanced depiction of an emotionally abusive relationship with elements of covert / emotional incest.

Emotionally abusive because she tends to manipulate him - isolate him from others, like potential partners.

When she feels he “replaced” her by choosing Emily - she immediately replaces him with Charlotte, a surrogate daughter.

Note: covert incest is not actual, literal incest. I do Not think their relationship has an actual sexual / romantic component to it. (but idk if you think that would be interesting to explore in a fanfic, go right ahead.)

I’m referring to unhealthy parent/child relationships where the child is expected to take on a role similar to the parent’s spouse. Such as where the parent expects the child to comfort them emotionally (even from a young age), or to prioritize their relationship over other forms of relationships, like friendships or dating other people.

I can definitely see that, especially with Lydia’s line to Rasselas in season 2 after he talks about losing his partner to an unknown disease. He says something like “I lost my precious boy”.

And she says, “so did I”.

This is due to Lydia being self centered as fuck, sure, but remember how she reacted to Charles nearly dying of an OD because of Emily? She was nowhere near this mopey about it.

(Ofc she had to make sure he was safe but once he was in stable condition she immediately struck.)

In that case at least she could react with violence and use Emily to boost her own standing.

In the case of Charles moving out to live with her, she’s kinda screwed, her old methods of dealing with a situation by attacking others to her own benefit don’t work.

It’s not really actionable. She can’t just go after Emily at the moment.

Lydia is finally stuck having to deal with the idea that her son - who she’s made part of her identity, especially if it means she can say she’s a Good Mother so she’s winning at Patriarchy - maybe chose someone else over her. Or doesn’t want to be close to her anymore.

—

Okay yeah I have talked about the relationships a lot but I could also talk about Charles himself.

Again, he’s a very passive character in a show about very active - or even aggressive - women.

I think his scenes in the show serve an important role of providing some levity or respite from the more intense drama (ie kidnapping, psychological torment, etc). It kinda breaks things up so you can fully digest how awful the other scenes are.

Not to say that he’s a totally innocent guy.

He’s still a shitty person, very self centered and privileged and willing to take advantage of others for his own desires.

I feel like sometimes I’m tipping the scales in his favor too much, as Charles is a morally grey character who likes to think he’s a good guy, but… it’s much easier for him to continue being awful or allow others to suffer for his benefit.

I think there’s a lot of interesting stuff at play with him, the ways Lydia’s parenting makes him see her as a role model and also a negative role model.

He starts off wanting to follow in her footsteps, to impress her. When Lydia starts intimidating Margaret for Emily coming to her, he backs up Lydia by remarking that Emily’s pretty bangable.

(Which is… kinda a stupid thing to add, but it still has an effect on Margaret, which is what they want.)

But once Charles starts to get into what it really means for Lydia to be a bawd - and him by extension - he doesn’t want to continue in the same way.

It’s not just, maybe he can keep Lydia from lashing out at the girls, or maybe if she does he can help them out by sneaking them food.

Once Emily nearly kills him via OD to escape, he doesn’t feel like going after her. Maybe he has a realization from that near death experience. Maybe he’s just too passive to want revenge. Maybe he knows that if he tried to get revenge Lydia would just take it to an eye for an eye levels of intense.

Maybe you could argue that he’s got some kind of guilt around what he did to Emily.

He seemed to almost have a moment of self awareness when (iirc) he told her he’d want to move out some place without Lydia, where she wouldn’t have to have sex with anyone… except him. Oops.

I think the relationship with Emily - because she’s a lot more pro active than he is, and she’s willing to talk back to him despite the power he has over her - forces him to realize his role in things.

And the development with the whole kidnapping people and giving them over to sadistic cultists to murder thing gets him firmly off Lydia’s side.

(Well, that and the line where iirc Nancy says something like “you can’t be on everyone’s side”.)

I think also there’s a lot that could be said about Nancy’s role in nudging him in the direction of a redemption arc in season. Maybe more like pushing him, idk.

Nancy is one of the only people who’s really patient enough to help Emily, even when she lashes out because she feels vulnerable.

She’s one of the first people who really treats Charles as an adult now that I think of it. Like even when Emily rocks the boat, she still plays into his childish side to keep his favor.

I think it’s largely because he’s the exact kind of guy Nancy is used to seeing - a rich dude who wants a dominant woman to take care of him and guide him - and the added history with his mother helps.

You could also argue that while Lydia fits patriarchal ideas of the ideal mother - being nurturing (unless you piss her off), delicate, feminine, lacking her own romance / sex life in lieu of caring for her child (usually) - Nancy is more like the reverse of all these traits, but she actually cares for and guides the people she takes under her wing.

When Emily lashes out at people she thinks are condescending to her, Lydia just doubles down on punishing her, but Nancy gives her the benefit of the doubt and offers her aid.

Was this post a Trojan horse for Nancy birch?? Maybe??

I think that the contrast is also interesting, with Nancy lacking all the conventionally feminine things that make Lydia appear to be a good person on the surface, but actually nurturing and wanting people to grow and providing good coping mechanisms and a shoulder to cry on. Often at the expense of herself.

(So basically Lydia is cloth mother and Nancy is wire mother? Yeah)

I realize I went way off the mark here but I think there’s a lot of potential in exploring the relationship between Charles and Nancy too.

Like he’s more used to seeing women who try to fit into social roles men place on them (whore, virgin, mother, crone etc archetypes) so seeing a goth butch lesbian who tells him to get his shit together… kinda breaks his brain.

It’s a really interesting dynamic I wish we saw more of.

—

There’s a lot more I could say, and maybe will say at a later date, but I’m getting kinda tired of writing this post. I tried to focus on the stuff that was touched on in canon + my own interpretation of it. Or different ones you could run with.

If you got this far… thank you for reading! I give you a sugar pig (whatever that is) for your efforts

[cynids]

about me!

minor

asian

fav characters:

dick grayson, midnighter, constantine, starfire, donna troy, raven, rose wilson, stephanie brown

dean winchester, jo harvelle

stiles stilinski, lydia martin, isaac lahey, liam dunbar

burial mounds gang

slytherin skittles

mike ross, spencer reid, tony dinozzo, danno williams

what i mainly post about/repost:

dc (mainly dick grayson + wonder twins, teen titans and batfam, with a love for wonder + arrowfams & rouges too)

teen wolf + tvd

winx, barbies, bratz, monster high, ever after hugh

formula 1 (charles leclerc, alex albon and oscar piastri (rip logan ily boo)

nhl & goalie loving hours (canes fan since birth, krakens + avs)

college hockey (umich + cornell)

models (v.s and 90's models)

volleyball, figure skating, ice dancing, ballet, gymnastics

an occasional string of aesthetic (or depressing) posts whenever im feeling fancy

media i'm currently obsessing over:

911 + lone star

white collar

moon night

voltron

praying to GOD they dont fuck this new dynamic duo movie u

asks always open!

[starrypawz]

So Beetlejuice Beetlejuice thoughts

Spoilers ahead

Broadly, I really liked it. I think it was great it felt very much like the spirit of the original was carried on through just with a little bit of updating for modern audiences, I'd say it's a film with heart like this film leant into the camp and the cheese and it worked so well and there was basically no 'lol this is cringe right' type stuff going on

Like is this film a little cliche, yes but also cliche can be good sometimes it's Beetlejuice, It's Tim Burton I'm here for the cliche.

Set design and costuming was top notch, also PRACTICAL EFFECTS MY LOVE I think they got the balance right of only using the CGI where they really had to

I really love how one of Lydia's outfits is essentially a homage to the school uniform from the end of the film

I think the film was more... 'gross' than the OG but also I think it's on a level they probably would've done in the OG film if they'd been able to

Also love how they got around Charles Deetz through that claymation sequence and then 'we'll just make his character not have a head for the rest of the film'

Sounds weird but I think I can compare Lydia and Astrid to Gloria and Sasha in Barbie as they had a similar dynamic of the 'quirky' mother and much more straight laced cynical kid but I think Lydia and Astrid managed to pull that off way better and it felt a lot more authentic as a mother daughter relationship.

I also like how they essentially had both Lydia and Astrid going on a similar journey like both dealing with the paranomal pitfalls and the 'whoops turns out some guys are douches' pitfalls

I think the film did a really good job of juggling multiple plot threads and giving them fairly equal footing and breathing room

I think though and this was a criticism I saw elsewhere I think Willem Defoe was great but then it's Willem Defoe is always great but I think I would've been happy if his character wasn't there? Or at least had less screen time

Like I think I don't mind Delores was sort of a enigmatic villain, it did work but honestly i'd maybe have taken a little of Willem's screentime away to give to Delores

(Also I support Women's Wrongs)

But yeah overall great film

[joyfulforjane]

This meme reminded me of the moment in the audiobook, Mrs. Wickham, in which Lydia writes to Jane and Charles Bingley, requesting financial assistance as her abominable husband wastes all of their income on drinking and whoremongering. Written in a style sounding unlike both Jane and Charles, Lydia receives a response from the couple declining her request and squandering the possibility of fulfilling of any of her future pleas, encouraging her to manage her own financial matters through the earnings she shares with Mr. Wickham. This moment leads to Lydia's lowest point in the audiobook, and arguably, her entire life, as she contemplates both the possibility of starving to death (a fate which she attempts to execute, turning up her nose at bread for the entirety of 20 minutes) and the prospect of her miserable life to come.

I found the audiobook in its entirety, but particularly the financially oriented element of its plot, to be quite interesting, especially considering Lydia's spoiled upbringing. Throughout reading Pride and Prejudice, I found myself fascinated with parent-child dynamics in the novel, and the way in which Lydia receiving all of her heart's desires upon her immediate request, facilitated by her mother, shaped her character. When refused monetary aid in this moment, Lydia makes the decision to become entrepreneurial and determined rather than stagnant and useless. I found this to be quite refreshing and uplifting, if not realistic. It makes the compelling argument that perhaps, all that Lydia needed was a bit of deprivation to become a more fully developed individual.

However, branching off of the idea of placing difficulties in Lydia's path to develop and refine her character, I do challenge the idea of killing off Mrs. Bennet as a method for furthering her maturation. Solely facing financial woes, the inevitable consequence of her misinformed marital choice, seems like a much more realistic and less drastic measure. Suddenly eliminating a parent from the equation, however, thus conveniently bringing the Bennet family together and subjecting Lydia to further hardships, seems like too simplistic a solution. In my opinion, it undermines the authenticity of Lydia's struggles, making her appear more pitiable in an artificial way.

[the-witching-ash]

Follow up: any thoughts on platonic Gilmore Girls crossovers that weren't on my list?

Addie Hisenburg

Willow & Lucas, Charles/Blythe/Kaito, Troy & Harry, Lottie

Callum Zang: (Apart of Richie’s Stars Hallow Squad)

Kirsty Gilmore, possibly the Dance Squad Pre-Party Year, Charles, Lucas & Willow & The Squad, Delicate Crew, Ilsa, Lorrie & Jamey, Holland, Tommy

Daisy Gilmore

Kirsty, Charles & Blythe & Kaito, Dani, Ilsa, Lili, Lorrie & Jamey, Jocelyn, Preston, Troy & Harry & Lottie, Vicki* (in Delicate), Eliya, Adalia, Tommy, Lucas & The Squad, Antonette

Evie Charleston

Charles, Kirsty, Dani, Troy, Antonette, Avery,

Eileen Bloom

Willow & Lucas & The Squad, Troy & Harry, Lottie, Levi & Sky Bloom & The Band

Floyd Bach (also is apart of Richie’s Stars Hallow Squad)

Troy & Harry & Lottie, Charles, Ilsa, Willow & Lucas and The Squad, Char, Holland

Grace Kim

Charles, Dani, Ilsa, Lili, Lorrie & Jamey, Preston, Jocelyn, Lucas & Willow & The Squad, Delicate Crew, Holland, Jacqueline, Jane, Pippi, Antonette

Hana Ryu: (also in Richie’s verse)

Adalia, Cecilia, Levi & Sky & The Band, Willow & Lucas & Squad, Delicate Crew

Imogen Fleming

Jacqueline (ngl it’s also giving poly with Jess vibes), Troy & Harry, Nellie, Paige, Willow & Lucas, Dani, Fraya (possibly), Avery, Brady

Liberty Danes

Lexi & Preston, Dani, Lorrie & Jamey, Ilsa, Lottie, Brady, Gabi

Lydia Danes

Lexi & Preston, Dani, Lorrie & Jamey, Ilsa, Lottie, Brady, Grabi

Mercy Medina

Paige, Nellie, Fraya, Emmeline, Annabelle

Regina Gilmore

Charles, Dani, Ilsa, Lili, Lorrie & Jamey, Preston, Jocelyn, Lucas & Willow & The Squad, Delicate Crew, Antonette, Blythe & Kaito

Richie Gilmore

Austin & Brooks, everyone

*Everything Changes verse - Colton & Cece by default

Various other Glee oc Richie dynamics: Jo & Camilo, Sadie, Jeremy & Josh & Amelie & Nell

Rupert & Alice Hawthorn

Lottie

Vance: (Apart of Richie’s Chilton Squad)

Kirsty Gilmore, Antonette, Dani, Brielle & Brooks & Austin & Ashton, Troy & Harry (ngl there’s a chance he’s probably slept with them before but Richie doesn’t know that?)

[1010ninetynine]

7 pages into women by charles bukowski. he's like a fanfiction smut writer but bad at it. self indulgent but no emotional charge to the sex, hell, i don't even know why the woman mc's fucking is so sexy. at least try to make me interested in her BODY (you have failed to make the main character interesting bukowski so it's ok. you can just give up on that.)

Spoilers under cut, if you're going to read it, there's rape fyi.

like lydia's poems are bad. all she is is hot. and you're not even giving me much about how exactly she's hot bukowski. im so?? like what is the point. You're a lonely old man who's not gotten laid? is this some fantasy? what am i reading? why am I reading it? why is this the entire book so far? and then he has the audacity to reference how women think he can't write women...women are right. what the fuck is this book?

ok take a look at this section,

"I got up and mixed her one. Lydia lit a long cigarette and sipped at her drink. "You sure look good in that hat," I said. "That purple feather is something." "It's my father's hat." "Won't he miss it?" "He's dead." I pulled Lydia over to the couch and gave her a long kiss."

(women by charles bukowski)

omg wow her father's dead? swoon? im not even understanding why he wants the sex right then? Is he bored of her life story? im so confused.

the most revealing line i think is this "I masturbated regularly, but the idea of having a relationship with a woman-- even on non-sexual terms--was beyond my imagination."

like...the idea of a relationship with a woman being non-sexual needs CLARIFICATION in his eyes. meanwhile the men and women I know are like "ah yes me and my friends who i think are such interesting people." and there's no guarantee of sexual connotation there. Granted, i'm a lonely little virgin too who used to be unsocial, but I don't think I've ever thought of men in this light? Is it that I'm bisexual? i dunno. it's so strange to me.

also uh i'll leave you with this amazing line (tw:rape):

""I think you deserve some love," she said. "I had a dream about you. I opened your chest like a cabinet, it had doors, and when I opened the doors I saw all kinds of soft things inside you--teddy bears, tiny fuzzy animals, all these soft, cuddly things. Then I had a dream about this other man. He walked up to me and handed me some pieces of paper. He was a writer. I took the pieces of paper and looked at them. And the pieces of paper had cancer. His writing had cancer. I go by my dreams. You deserve some love." We kissed again. "Listen," she said, "after you stick that thing inside me, pull it out just before you come. O.K.?" "I understand." I climbed on top of her. It was good. It was something happening, something real, and with a girl 20 years younger than I was and really, after all, beautiful. I did about 10 strokes--and came inside of her."

i don't like catering to this sort of crowd but if you're not going to read all of that - the woman's like omg baby boy you're so lonely 🥺 you need some love. By the way don't get me pregnant pls - and then he's just like, "oh did you want to not have another kid? Sorry but I feel really good right now so I'm just going to risk getting you another pregnancy because you are just a cum dump to me."

like not to go fanfic author on main but - you know the fanfic version of this? It's some guy who's like...wanting to use some other guy but it's like because he's obsessed with that guy specifically. Like, he wants to fuck him, but it's special cause it's him. It's not like...complete disregard it's like "you're going to look so good like this" not JUST "oh it feels better to come inside." like im so serious - fanfiction has this thing where it's like...patriarchal dynamics during sex but never in a way where the "woman" or should i say "bottom" doesn't enjoy every second. i'm sorry if i've disturbed you. i disturb myself. not all fanfiction. sometimes it's not quite so disturbing as rape. it's just...difficult to find. i don't like masturbating to it for that reason.

i feel so disillusioned. i feel like if this is getting published these are the thoughts of so many men. suddenly the pornification of everything makes sense now. it's always been like this huh.