#‘the games actually textually say this?’ YEAH??? ITS IN STRIVE EVEN??????

[tillman]

Trying to talk to anyone about zato one is just this image playing on repeat in my head

[oldearthaccretionist]

So... because @duck-duck-newton asked me to put my tags from my reblog in the actual text of the reply because they were too long to screenshot... have my slightly expanded from tags thoughts below:

Yeah! Exactly all of that! And also all that GRRM’s comments about Tolkien tells me that IF he read Tolkien's books he certainly missed a lot and he absolutely didn't glance at the appendices or any of the other books, which is absolutely fair if you’re not interested, but basically it's a pretty glaring misreading of Tolkien's characters and worldbuilding and I feel like if you are going to comment on an author’s thesis or a theme of their work especially if setting yourself and your work up in opposition to it you should probably engage with the work you’re mentioning enough to know if it actually says what you are about to say it does.

Because I feel like, if anything, Tolkien's thesis about good rulers is absolutely NOT a generic good person = good leader but that:

That the most powerful person is often NOT the best choice for a leader/ruler and that often having great amounts of personal power often leads people to greedily seek more with no regard to the cost to those around them, even if they start from an initially well-meaning place (See: Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, and unsubtle repeated themes of power being destructively addictive... like seriously the number of times the “Originally most powerful of [entity group]” turns to evil and destruction in order to increase personal power and influence or cling to power during the history of Arda makes this recurring motif impossible to ignore if you’re paying attention)

That the best ruler knows and cares about and understands the people they lead and is willing to sacrifice to protect them. Is not one who seeks glory or war but one who is willing to stand up and fight for peace who holds to their word and defends/help their people and allies. Additionally as a corollary to the above doesn’t rely on personal power to do this but achieves most of what they do by creating fellowship and organizing and inspiring and assisting the people they lead and their allies to help achieve this goal.

The best and most reliable of leaders will strive to build a better world even in the face of overwhelming adversity and will continue to build and inspire and cleave to hope over falling to despair or compromising with evil (See: Saruman and Denethor giving in to Sauron’s psychological games with the palantirs and losing hope that Sauron could possibly be defeated, vs. the Fellowship’s entire deal/ Aragorn’s use of the palantir, and who ended up being correct in the end)

A leader who allows themselves to wallow too long in personal bitterness or tragedy and turn that bitterness outwards or retreats into isolation, rather than reaching for (and providing in return) the fellowship and help and advice of those that surround them will not be able to see the larger picture or effectively organise their people in times of adversity. This will lead to poor and short-sighted decision making that cripples both their effectiveness as a leader and the ability of those around them to effectively work (See: Denethor and his descent into bitterness after his wife’s death, turned outwards towards even his own son, and how despite Faramir’s other textually perfect leadership qualities is still hampered by trying to follow his father’s poor bitter leadership decisions, to the point of getting many killed including almost himself).

I feel like nothing better summarizes Tolkien’s central thesis about what makes a good leader than the iconic line from the Two Towers:

“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend”

In Tolkien’s work it is all about fellowship and love and coming together and protecting one another and striving for peace and a better world for everyone. It is not about a leader who stands on their own because they are good, but a leader who is effective because they STAND WITH OTHERS and THEY STRIVE FOR A BETTER WORLD EVEN IF IT IS HARD.  Tolkien, is by no means perfect but that is one of the messages of his works that really, really resonated for me.

In contrast, I feel from the few books of GRRM’s I managed to make it through before I decided they were not for me, that GRRM definitely loves the sword and arrow and often forgets that they can defend more than the self and a handful of people (like he seems to really like it when characters get stabbed... whereas Tolkien tended not to linger on the violence aspect).  Like maybe the later books got better for all this (?) but like as far as i could tell trying to protect your people and striving to create a better world for everyone around you rather than focusing on your own concerns/worrying about building your political and personal power, mostly got you and those you care about murdered. While those most willing to compromise and scheme and narrow their focus kept winning and surviving... like maybe that changes as things arc but *shrugs* my second hand information about the show definitely doesn’t inspire hope that it does. Like from the first few books (which admittedly I’m remembering from years ago) he seemed to me to be a little obsessed with the idea that no one at heart is actually a good person and everyone will cleave to self-interest and that if you don’t focus on your own self-interest enough it just makes you easier to eliminate?

Basically Tolkien sets up a thesis about what we should strive for, what will result in the best overall outcome for everyone, while GRRM kinda I think tries to comment on what is ... maybe?... while abandoning any attempt at building what could/should be.

i.e. Basically GRRM’s work and comments thoroughly reject one of Pratchett’s theses that what one of the greatest things offered by stories/fiction is the ability to envision and therefore strive for a better tomorrow... as delivered with no subtlety whatsoever by Death talking to his granddaughter:

“Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—” YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

“So we can believe the big ones?”

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

“They’re not the same at all!”

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

“Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what’s the point—”

MY POINT EXACTLY.

[...]

“...YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN’T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?”  

okay guys who wants me to drag George R.R. Martin