#‘that’s not even an accurate label!’

[hotcupoteckla]

VaLid tags

“here’s what we know about the uhc shooter”

WRONG! He is a suspect and we should treat him as such. He should be treated as innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent. He’s a person of interest not the killer. I don’t care what the media or authorities are saying, he’s a human being who deserves a fair trial and deserves to be treated as innocent until proven otherwise.

[marshmellin]

Regarding the Eldar and Sexy Sex | Analysis of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar within Tolkein's Lore

A.K.A Let the elves be horny. Textually, there is no reason they can't if we're creative.

The concept I am analyzing: An unfinished essay describes the Elven view of marriage vows which cannot be broken. In sum: Some have interpreted this text as saying that Elves can not/will not have sexual activity (“bodily union”) outside marriage.

The concept I have landed on: “Bodily union,” as described in this unpublished text can be interpreted as an intentional act that elven couples choose to perform. The term is not a catch-all for any or all types of sexual contact. In sum: I interpret that Elves can and could engage in a variety of sexual activities without creating marriage vows if they wished.

Below, I have shared how I came to this concept.

Mainly because I like to be canon compliant while letting elves get down.

Welcome to my TedTalk:

First, the facts:

“Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" (LaCE) is an unfinished, unpublished essay written by J.R.R. Tolkien. The notes and draft were published in Morgoth's Ring (Book 10), part of The History of Middle-earth compiled by Christopher Tolkien after his father's death.

LaCE is framed as an account written by Ælfwine, an Anglo-Saxon man. The text provides Ælfwine’s recounted views on various aspects of Elven life — and the BIG drama it creates in The Fandom™ is because of the traditions he recounts regarding marriage and childbirth, particularly. As mentioned above, the document declares that Elves who choose to marry do so once, and that due to their nature they do not commit adultery or even desire "bodily union" outside their marriage vows. Additionally, death itself does not override their vows. Partners will reunite in Valinor after leaving the Halls of Mandos.

AND SO: we must ask ourselves some questions about this Elf Sex document.

View the elf sex document here (it is in opposite of salacious. You may feel less turned on for 2-3 business days after reading it, idk.) Starts on page 289. Another section in the same PDF is the story of Finwë legal-argument-ing his way into bagging yet another unsuspecting baddie.

Let us assume the document is a relatively accurate depiction of Elven customs:

Portions from the text:

“It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete…but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made.” (emphasis mine)

Marsh’s Translation: 1) Witnesses are not needed, only the vows or bodily union. 2) This marriage-on-the-go situation was necessary even though the elves, as a group, agree not to marry in times of strife.….. as a race of beings, they do in fact get down bad enough to fuck and marry on the run while continents sink. Passion is there, ok.

“And the union of bodies in marriage is unique, and no other union resembles it.” (emphasis mine).

Marsh’s translation: Since bodily union in the context of marriage is specifically called out as both unique and highlighted as different from other unions, this suggests or, at the least leaves room for the interpretation, that there are other forms of touch and union that do not fall under this unique label of bodily union or consummation of marriage.

This leads us to the next logical question: what types of touch, connection and sensations (union) can occur between two Eldar that do not rise to the level of consummating marriage/a unique bodily union? Kissing? I can think of several ways to live a life worthy of an Explicit rating on AO3 and still avoid "bodily union" as Tolkien intends. And the Eldar have had a lot longer to think about it than I have.

“Nonetheless among the Eldar, even in Aman, the desire for marriage was not always fulfilled. Love was not always returned; and more than one might desire one other for spouse.” (emphasis mine)

Marsh’s Translation: ^^ romantic tension, baybeeee. Elf romantic triangles and quadrilaterals confirmed! But more seriously, I have several questions: firstly, Finwë how dare you.

Second point related to the above: since elves often do not err in choosing spouses, but two elves can love the same person, this suggests love and marriage =/=. We knew this already, but given the astounding number of random-ass elves who fall in love by sight in glades or meadows, I felt the need to be clear.

Third question re: elven love triangles. It the third unrequited person who isn’t loved in return just like….done with romance? RIP, buddy, your shot at intimacy was brief and sad. OR can they desire another again?

“…the Eldar would beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could.” (emphasis mine)

Marsh’s Translation: ^^ They try not to marry or have kids during times of strife, cool we get that. But this is an interesting thing to highlight in the 8ish pages of “this is Elves and how they sex” that Ælfwine has room for. The note that they try not to have kids (tenuously) suggests couples may be able to control when they have children. I’m not sure if the elven pull out method is particularly proven (think not. looking at you Fëanor, get OFF her).

Additionally, I would not be surprised if, due to the amount of life force necessary to bring forth an elven child (again, Fëanor, damn, dude) the parents can choose to or choose not to conceive during bodily union within the confines of marriage. However, I want to note this one is a quite the reach on my part. Slogan suggestion: who needs the pill when you have the strength of will?

“They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast. Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things. The union of love is indeed to them great delight and joy, and the ‘days of the children’, as they call them, remain in their memory as the most merry in life; but they have many other powers of body and of mind which their nature urges them to fulfil." (emphasis mine)

Marsh’s Translation: ^^ they’re horny until they have kids and raise them and all. And then, because there truly are only so many positions and kinks to try over thousands of years, they start to pick up a new hobby and are generally less horny.

But does this does equate to, “and then, when the kids leave for Elf State College, all sexual energy dies and couples live in separate rooms until the breaking of the world because one parter has taken up elven embroidery and the other now practices music and they’re simply too busy learning French Knots and the French Horn to fuck? They're sexually repressed because of the embroidery and instruments, you see.”

I say nay. Less horny =/= never horny. Focus on other desires =/= abandonment of all previous desires. Saying elves get it on more during their sometimes 100+ years-long honeymoon period is like….yes. And sometimes, if you squint, you’ll notice that the sky is, in fact, blue. (An aside to this section: The elves who saved Ælfwine’s human butt on the shores of Tol Eressëa and filled him in on how Elves work did mention Finwë in their account, but our Anglodude decided to give us a separate account of that, using this to focus instead on "Noldor Wedding Customs." So apparently avert your gaze from the published account of how Finwë, first High King of the Noldor, married twice while in Valinor, despite one wife’s spirit still residing in the Halls and their marriage still being valid, just because he reeeeaaaaaalllllly desired another wife and to have more kids. Really. Really. Desired. It. So he lit'rally lawyered up in front of Manwë and co. to ask suuuuuuuuper nicely if he could marry this second woman he knows that isn’t his wife. He makes a few relatively odd arguments, and now his ass has two wives via special Valar Approved Adultery. This doesn’t, doesn’t count as something Noldor do -- nah, they don't desire more than one person, it's just that one dude….) Sure, Jan.

Let us consider couplings between the Eldar and other Children of Illúvatar or Ainur NOT discussed in the text:

We know those couplings are rare, but they do exist and lead to children (Hi, Elrond! Hi, Eldarion!). Do parings between Elves and Men/Maiar require vows for marriage, or, like between two Eldar, can “bodily union” alone marry them?

If “bodily union” alone binds the Eldar and the Edain, do the Edain know this/is this information regarding bodily union = vows readily available to all Children of Illúvatar? It would seem odd to not specifically mention that as an outcome to Men -- and yet, we have no other true textual support that the bodily union between Elves results in marriage. Like, if we take this at face value, do drunk one-night stands between a mortal and elf turn into “whoops, all marriage!” 😬

If “bodily union” between the Eldar and Edain does not marry these couples, are there Edain/mortal brothels for elves who are stressed tf out but do not seek marriage or "bodily union." For example, I dunno, maybe someone who happens to be a High King named Gil-galad? Or, perhaps, even, an Ereinion? (Yes. For full information, see my published works).

What about bodily union with an Ainur/Maia and an Elf? Did Thingol and Melian need to take vows? Or was Forest Eye Sex™ enough for them to be wed when they finally hauled their asses out of the enchanted woods and still failed to apologize to Círdan for literally causing him to be abandoned? 👀 Questions continue to abound.

Let us ask if the document is reliable in-universe:

The document is written in-universe by an Anglo-Saxon Man who was not related or married to a member of the Eldar, writing in 800something AD after managing to make his way to Aman. He heard this second-hand from other Elves. His b-day is not even close to the Year of the Trees. As readers, we should consider whether his narration is reliable or not for this reason alone. (“What’s your source? Trust me, bro?”)

Which brings me to my next point:

Unless we see other elven-generated sources or statements supporting his view, his research is unsupported — Oh but wait!! He HAS a source. A group of elves who saved him from a ship wreck shared some facts and he wrote them down after he got back so….about as good as being there, tbh. 😑 There's no way in hell an Elf would lie to a Man or play a joke on the weird dude asking invasive questions about your sacred marriage customs, right?

Let us question the document as it exists in our world:

It was published in “Morgoth’s Ring” (book 10) as part of The History of Middle Earth, Christopher Tolkein notes inaccuracies: “my impression is that my father had not fully planned its structure when he began”. Christopher also notes that it clear the document was written from the perspective of a Man and not a member of the Eldar.

Tolkien was wingin' it and he winged too close to the sun, so to speak.

Tolkien wrote this, but also noted questions in his own margins and some of his own logic is in conflict with other published works of his (Finwë, as always, is the exception of all exceptions along with Fëanor -- menaces, both). While many of the stories that Tolkien tells throughout LOTR about elves involve monogamy, we are not shown the other aspects of elven sexualities or lifecycles in those texts as in this unfinished LaCE text. This work remained unpublished during Tolkien’s time, in part, it would seem from Christopher Tolkien’s view, because the views in this in-universe texts did not fit smoothly into the world and relationships Tolkien had already built. (He didn't have it planned). This document did not come before, Tolkien was backing into it and he still was dissatisfied with it.

Finally, let us be frfr:

We all know Tolkien did not intend for the elves to have smutty, explicit times outside marriage. He likely didn’t plan for any of his characters to experience that within his world outside of a vow.

AO3 did not exist in his time. He didn’t know, folks. He didn’t know what we’d do and what we would write. (Side q: when was the word smut invented?)

^^^ To put a finer point on this that is less of a joke: Tolkien quite likely did not expect derivative works to be created from his universe. From an authorial point of view, he was less likely to view his work as what his narrative choices could or could not allow others to do with their own stories in his world. He rightly focused on whether his ongoing writing choices impacted the validity of his past stories.

If Tolkien chose to change something in his world, he had the final word on it (even if he was wrong with Gil-galad's parentage and I stand on that and so does Christopher amen). He was known for writing and rewriting maps, elven ages tables, parentages, etc to fit his vision as needed and as his fictional universe grew. The LaCE document is a draft and he did not finish it because he did not need the customs finalized for his other works to, well, work — he already wrote most of his elven characters as following this pattern of relationships, even if he did not have a document to define it.

Tolkien was an upper-middle-class Catholic Englishman writing from a personal lens; while his body of work is not a Catholic work, we can not fully ignore the author’s religion when analyzing a story that includes clear in-universe religious systems devised by a devoutly Catholic man. And, to be equally plain, is quite gah-damn clear what a man born in 1892 with JRR’s background, religion and education means to communicate to his audience when he says “bodily union”.….

But language changes. Context changes. Use changes. Meaning changes. AO3 has been invented.

Let. The. Eldar. Be. Horny.

Last Thots:

Many a writer out there *waves arms broadly* working with elves in Tolkien’s universe may feel the need to write them as a pretty straight-laced race of beings: no open lust, no sex outside marriage, unbreakable oaths. These are aspects aligned with the way Tolkien portrays elves, and so many fics featuring some of our faves will pair elves with others who are their betrothed or intended or spouse – a relationship that fits within the shown framework of elven sexuality. Sometimes writers will make some complex (and cool!) rationales to allow characters to move around the “rules”.

Love these fics. LOVE THEM. Give me all the betrothal and intended and sneakylink hijinks you can.

….but don’t keep these lovely people sexually repressed unless you want to. For fun 😉

[plugboy11]

while cap tends to banter with his villains and monologue about how he’ll defeat them with his “Wedgie Power!” kipper rarely talks during battle, if at all. if he does it’s usually incredibly stern and to the point, he has very little patience for most of the antagonists’ bullshit half the time and just wants to get it over with as soon as possible so he can go home and put some clothes on

[startixx]

i needed practice drawling wings lol

BIBLICALLY ACCURATE P03!?.!

also one of my characters at the top i recycled to be a inscription oc i guessHELEP

[schneiderenjoyer]

The reason the whole age discourse is confusing is that bluepoch keeps pulling shit like THIS.

[stacksattack]

just got a very unsavory follower so obligatory post about this

[fuckdamn]

everytime i’m faced with wild overt misogyny that’s just platformed like it’s nothing i remind myself that people don’t actually have to feel this way about women. men are fully capable of treating women like human beings and viewing them as such. “but socialization but male fantasies but patriatchy speaks through us even when we don’t recognize it” sure but actually regardless there exist men who are fundamentally not raging misogynists and they generally seem happier and better adjusted. misogyny to me isn’t disappointing because “oh i can’t believe Men, as an essentialized category of person, are like this” it’s disappointing because people make the choice to be like this. “it’s my biological imperative as a man to dominate you” okay well it’s my biological imperative as a freaky bitch to dominate you so what now. what biological imperative is making you comment “onlyfans detected opinion rejected” on every picture of any attractive woman. i think i will always be understood by most people as a woman and i’m learning to accept that and trying to like it but misogyny makes me feel very trapped of course. but misogyny is a choice. which means some people make the choice to be misogynistic which is profoundly frustrating. but many other people choose not to be actively misogynistic and i believe anyone could choose not to be actively misogynistic if they wanted. so it’s a whole thing

[gendiebrainrotreceipts]

In conclusion transphobia is 1. Facts 2. Having boundaries 3. Asking questions 4. Something no one says

And what is a girl exactly?

Ah yes our ‘made up definition’ rooted in material reality, science and acknowledged by the vast majority of society, and the ‘many definitions’ that only you and your friends recognise

Weren’t you just saying men and women were social not biological terms?

Apparently terfs can occasionally be confused with 10 year old children with a Harry Potter obsession

Yes because no one is trying to transition ‘cis’ kids.

…So do you like the word cis or not?

If girls can have male bodies, what is a girl to begin with?

No they’re a biological reality…kinda like being male or female..

So women yeah…

[flowers-inverted]

Just randomly remembered that time in high school I told a girl I was asexual and her response was "but have you tried it?"

Bruh it doesn't matter. Asexual means lack of sexual attraction. Ace people can participate in such activities and enjoy them. Its whether or not you expirence a certain type of attraction not if you enjoy an activity.

Shoulda told her that 🙂‍↕️

[guiltyidealist]

I cannot STAND the shipcourse label terms.

Rant.

"Anti-ship". "Pro-ship".

They're such fucking misnomers for what they're actually referring to that it's not even CLEAR what they're actually referring to.

I struggle to even apply any of this shit to myself. Labels serve as a concise way to communicate something. A label has failed to function as a concise descriptor when it does not describe what you want it to.

Put the shipcourse connotations to these words aside for a second. Just take them for their literal, face-value translation.

I'm not """anti-ship""". I'm not fucking against shipping. Nor am I """pro-ship""" per se?? I'm shipping-positive and shipping-favorable -- like sex-positive and sex-favorable, I'm good with other people doing it and I like doing it -- but not indiscriminately???

There are ships I dislike and there's nothing about it related to ethics. "Anti-ship" and "pro-ship" are such absolutist fucking terms, black-and-white and binary and un-nuanced, "this or that".

But here's the thing: these words don't just mean "how you feel about shipping". Shipping is hardly the tip of the fucking iceberg. A small, singular, surface-level facet to a deep and complex issue related to art, reality, human relationships, and responsibility.

(And that's problem #2 with the labels: encompassing a fraction's fraction's fraction of what this is really about and making it sound like petty fandom bullshit instead.)

What it's really about is portrayal of sensitive and fucked up matters in fiction, and of how to engage with it. It's about what's healthy and what's not. It's about what's ethical and what's not.

It's about boundaries; the line between fiction and reality, the line between artists and their works, the line between creator and audience.

It's about the nature of art, the nature of the relationship between an artist and their artwork, the nature of the relationship between artwork and those who view it. It's about art as a medium through which interaction occurs simply by one person creating it and another perceiving it.

It's about responsibility and accountability. It's about the placement of responsibility and accountability in the artist-viewer relationship. Who is accountable for what. Where does the artist's due diligence end, and where do the viewer's discretion and critical thinking begin. Who takes credit or blame for what.

It's about consequences and who receives them. It's about how art reflects upon the artist, and how it doesn't. It's about what it means to create, to bring something forth to the world and to put it out there to be perceived and judged and acted upon.

I ran out of spoons but. TLDR: shipcourse labels suck so much -- dysfunctional and counterproductive, misleading, wildly failing to capture stances in the real issue at hand -- and we should stop using them actually

[tuesday-is-a-good-day]

FWIW: If you're uncomfortable with someone who is just "ship and let ship, regardless of what ships I personally like" (proship), that's not a good thing. Proship is a response to the word antiship, which means "against shipping whatever people want." Anti=against. Pro=in favor of. It's basic english.

If you think it means "problematic", please block whoever told you that because it's not true. Just go into any space for fandom olds or AO3 and ask them.

FWIW, i really don’t care what you — a stranger — has to say about my boundaries. I know what proship means, I know what antiship means, and I do not care.

My stances on fiction are not dictated by reductive and distorting labels. I recognise that there is an area for moral exploration in fiction, I know that fiction and reality are seperate places which interact in a number of ways, and i know that liking something in fiction doesn’t mean that you support it in reality.

There’s a more complicated discussion to all of this, about where the line between fiction and reality lies and just how clear it is, but at the end of the day the way I interact with fandom and what I am comfortable with is up to me to decide and enforce, thanks lol.

[averinthine]

been thinking that maybe i was right the first time when i identified as asexual back in the day

[dykesbat]

i think gender/sexuality labels are beautiful and they’ve brought me a lot of peace and happiness but i also feel like ppl put wayyyy too much importance on labels w/o like properly discussing how they’re not like a clinical diagnosis we will or won’t fit in yk.

[nepsah]

yeah ok fuck it im gonna upload this bad boyyyyy anyway

its still a WIP but it gets the point across for my brain while i'm tryna make sure people are going in directions and traveling distances that actually make sense lmao

(made with wonderdraft, with mostly vanilla assets but the fields are from readyartz on cartographyassets)

[charlieswebb]

my gender?

- autistic woman

- gay girl

[analyticalangelsheart]

oh the urge to just identify as ace-spec because the flag is so much prettier