#<- imo i like the idea of him being friends with nicky first then falling in love but that's just my two cents lol

[amphibifish]

drew an interaction rod and nicky supposedly had from this video !!!!!

[i-did]

Do you know when the racism and ableism accusations against Nora started? Because back when I was active in 2016/2017 and don't think they were a thing, or were very low-key. Was it something she said or are people just basing it off the things she wrote in the books?

From what I remember, the first time I heard the blanket statement of “Nora is racist/fetishizes gay men” blanket statement was early fall 2019 (which is so ironic for the fandom to say on so many levels lmao). There wasn’t a catalyst or anything, just she went offline 2016 and no new content was coming out and the aftg fandom is such an echo chamber that… an accidental smear campaign happened.

 Before then, I would see occasional “Nora used ableist slur” which… is funny (not that ableism isn’t serious) to me people care more about that than Seth saying the f-slur. IMO this is because with Seth, it clearly shows the character thinking it and not the author who is writing about what will be an end game mlm relationship. 

But anyways! Long story short, it's the fact that she’s an ace/aro woman who wrote a mlm book, and based off of the events in canon. There is no “Nora called me/someone else a slur” it’s “Nora wrote a book where slur(s) are used” and “the Moriyama’s are Japanese.”

Below I put my own opinion on these claims and go into more detail:

CW for discussions of: racism, ableism, mlm fetishization

Fetishization: (and mentions of sexism at the end)

To one question in the EC about her inspo for aftg she jokingly responded how she wanted to write about gay athletes. On other parts of your blog you could see she was a hockey fan and an overall sports fan (anime or otherwise) but I've seen this statement taken out of context and framed as “she's one of those BOYXBOY” shippers. Considering how… well-developed both Andrew and Neil’s relationship is, and it takes them until like the 3rd book and there is a whole complex ass plot going on around, you can see how that's just. Not really true. And considering the fandom is like… 85% women (queer women but still women) and I've gotten into a discussion with someone who is a woman and called Nora a fetishizer and was ignoring my opinions as a mlm, and I really just wanted to say “well what does that make you?” it's a very ironic high horse. She didn’t write 3 all 3 books to put Neil in lingerie pwp or crop-top fem-fatal fashion show, fandom did. 

Also, I talked to an ace/aro friend about this, and she talked to me about how AFTG spoke to her very much so as an ace/aro story. Neil is demisexual, Nora didn’t know of the word at the time of reading it, but she did get an anon asking if Neil was demi after, and she said “had to look it up, and yep, but he doesn't really think about it” (paraphrased). Obviously it would have been cool if andreil were canonly written as wlw by Nora instead, (which would have increased the amount of wlw rep and demi rep) but tbh I don’t think tumblr would have cared about it nearly as much and everyone would just call Neil a cold bitch–like people do with Nora’s other published book with a main character who's a woman. Plus they're her OC’s, not mine. 

The fact is that 50% of all LGBT+ rep in literature is mlm, mostly white mlm, and not written by mlm. I’m not going to hold her to a higher standard than everyone else, she already broke a shit ton of barriers in topics she discusses that otherwise get ignored. I’m grateful to these books for existing even if it's a mlm story written by a woman. I still will prioritize reading mlm written by mlm–and vice versa with wlw– in the way I prioritize reading stories about POC written by POC. But credit where credit is due, this is a very good story, and a very good demi story. 

Ableism:

To me, AFTG is a story about ableism and how we perceive some trauma survivors more worthy than others. Neil and the foxes using ableist language shows how people actually talk. Neil thinks shitty things about Andrew, like the others do too, and thinks he's “psycho”. The story ultimately deconstructs this idea and these perceptions of people. Wymack, someone who says the r-slur (which is still not known by the general population as a slur even in 2021 much less the early 2000s when the book was beginning to be written and what the timeline is based off of) is a character who understands Andrew better than most of the others do, and gives him the most sympathy and understanding despite using words like the m-slur and r-slur. Using these words isn't good, but it is how people talk, and this character talks. Wymack is a playful “name caller” especially when he’s mad, the foxes think Andrew is “crazy” and incapable of humanity and love because of it. They call his meds “antipsychotics” as an assumption and insult in a derogatory way, when really antipsychotics are a very helpful drug for some people who need them. Even Neil thinks these things about Andrew until he learns to care about him. All the foxes are hypocritical to am extent, as people in real life tend to be. Nora herself doesn’t use these or tweet them or something, her characters do to show aspects of their personality and opinions and how they change over time.

Racism:

As for the racism, I've seen people talk about how racial minorities being antagonists is inherently bad, which I think lacks nuance but overall isn't a harmful statement or belief. However, Nora herself said she wrote in the yakuza instead of another gang or mob because she was inspired for AFTG by sports anime, (which often queer-bait for a variety of reasons). I haven’t seen a textual analysis acknowledging the racist undertones surrounding the Moriyama’s as the few characters of color who are also major antagonists, but instead just “Nora is racist”. Wymack having shitty flame tribal tattoo’s is just… a huge 90’s thing and a part of his character design. Her having a character with bad taste in tattoo trends doesn’t mean she's racist. There is the whole how Nicky is handled thing, but that's a whole thing on it’s own. The fandom… really will write Nicky being all “ai ai muy spicy, jaja imma hit on my white–not annoying like me–boyfriend in Spanish. With my booty hole out and open for him ofc.” and as a Mexican mlm I’m like … damn alright. 

I think there is merit to the fact that she writes white as the default* and unless otherwise stated a POC a character was written with the intent to be white is another valid criticism, as well as the fact that the cast is largely white, but everything Nora is accused of I've seen the fandom do worse. That goes to the debate of, is actively writing stereotypes for POC more harmful than no representation at all? And personally I prefer the lack of established race line that lets me ignore Nora’s canon intent of characters to be white and come up with my own HC’s over the fandoms depictions of “zen monk Renee with dark past” “black best friend Matt who got over drugs but is a puppy dog” “ex stripper black Dan who dates Matt” vague tokenism. I HC many of the upperclassmen as POC and do my best to actively give thought behind it and have their own arcs that also avoids the fandom colorism spectrum of “darkest characters we HC go to the back and fandom favorites are in the front and are the lightest.” 

*I however won't criticize her harsher or more than… everyone else who still largely does this in fanfiction regarding AFTG as well as literature in general. This isn't a Nora thing, it's a societal thing, and considering the books came out in like 2014 I'm not gonna hold her to a higher standard than the rest of the world. She's just someone who wrote her personal OC’s and self-published expecting no following. I don’t know her race and I’m not gonna hold her to a higher standard than everyone else just because. 

The criticisms I've seen have always been… ironic IMO, and clearly I have a lot of thoughts on it. I think most people say those things about Nora because they heard them, and it's the woke thing to say and do and don’t critically analyze their actions or anything, but just accept them. 

[wickedpact]

How long do you think did it take for Yusuf and Nicolo to get together? Also how long till they stopped fighting/ killing each other? I don't really want an answer in canon (I think) but I'm curious about your opinion. I love the idea of them taking a long time to first become friends and only then starting to get together. I usually don't vibe with the idea of them stopping killing each other and falling straight in love. But yeah what do you think?

there is (sort of) a canon answer already, funnily enough (under cut for longe post)

according to this video joe and nicky Fell In Love before andy and quynh found them, and andy mentions in the comics being in involved in the baussenque wars in the 1150s to nile in passing. assuming that andy wouldnt be going ham in random wars if there were two new immortals floating about, it can be assumed andy and quynh found joenicky prior to 1150, thus they were lovers by 1150

re: killing, we see in the comics that joe and nicky killed each other in the siege of jersusalem, died, stayed dead until the battle was over and it was night, and then killed each other several more times in the dark. it is sunrise when they stop. that could theoretically happen over several nights, but according to gina they killed each other about 3-4 times, so it can be assumed they were only really killing each other for < 12 hours. (lmao @ nicky's 'many times' line. FOUR TIMES NICKY?? THATS NOT 'MANY')

both luca and gina, when talking about the enemies to lovers run, have both said something to the effect of 'joe and nicky stopped killing each other and immediately fell in love on the spot' (like you, i think thats a little dramatic, lol) but greg notably said once while talking about said enemies to lovers run that

I just really did like this idea of these two guys. I mean, imagine the fifth time you hit the guy in the head with a rock and spilled his brains — and he’s stuck you with a dagger in your carotid artery. And you both wake up and are still there. At a certain point, it’s just like, fuck it. This is clearly not working, so we’d better find another way to relate.

which really doesnt imply they fell in love from the get-go, or that they even necessarily liked each other from that point on, just that they wanted to 'relate'. which i do like.

regarding MY opinion on the subject................. i mean, i think it really could vary wildly depending on what story you want to write. i think a lot of 'how long they hated each other' or 'how long theyd be killing each other' comes down to stuff like... how traumatized were they by jerusalem? how good is their communication? how forgiving are they? how open minded are they?

and other situational stuff too. i mean, we know joe canonly isnt from jerusalem, so it would be a wildly different thing if he showed up two days before the siege and didn't know anyone who died in the battle vs. he'd lived there for years and watched nicky's comrades cut down his dear friends. also nicky's mental state, was he 24/7 brimming with religious hostility/superiority or was he already skeptical of the beliefs he was raised with & willing to change? depending on factors like that the story can be wildly different

ANOTHER thing that greg mentioned that can be (sort of) abt the subject is him indirectly touching on joe + forgiveness

Joe and Booker are shouting at each other at the lab... but Joe is the last person looking back when they leave Booker (...) and there's a nod between them. They have achieved something. In accepting this punishment, they can be friends again.

which to me, honestly, says joe can be quick to anger but also quick to forgiveness as well, which imo facilitates a story when they went from enemies to friends pretty quickly once joe realized a.) nicky is acting on beliefs he was raised with and b.) is willing to unlearn said beliefs

i, personally, am not a fan of the stories where the enemies -> friends -> lovers is a drawn out, angsty process bc honestly......... if i wanted to read a story abt Some White Guy with questionable at best politics guiltily angsting about hurting someone he loved (while aforementioned hurt loved one dotted away his tears) i could go.... anywhere, lmao. i dont find that aspect of nicky interesting and my soul withers for poor joe at the idea of him Having To Put Up With This Guy. so i like the idea of the enemies to friends bit passing by quickly, lmao. but of course that period doesnt have to be like that! and even if it is, it's still an interesting and valid period to explore. plus, ill admit the enemies -> friends development™ is usually very tasty

i Do however, have a lot of interest for the period of their lives where like.. there isnt any real hostility left between them, and theyre.. sort of friends! they would call each other friends! but they dont quite know each other very well despite being pretty devoted to one another, and theyre still figuring out how to effectively communicate. i like that period of ~exploration~ esp since they both probably wouldnt know much abt each other's cultures, and them just kind of figuring out what their relationship is (and where its going).