#< he was mentioned in bb so i guess its ok to tag this xD

[we-dont-talk-about-potato-nonono]

Nacho !!!

[daesungindistress]

A message I received today (she wanted it published):

“Hi! I was browsing the bigbang tag here when i found your account and I had a pretty interesting evening reading your blog! Imagine my surprise when I found out you were the RcA of carnivores...... i was surprised then not at all because I remember writing you a monstrously long review then you replying me with an even longer reply XD In that spirit, I shall give my 2 cents

i saw your various posts about seungrigate, in particular the hyungline's prophecizing abilities. To preface this, I don't support Seungri and I'm not a OT5 stan but I think these videos, while chilling to watch in the aftermath of seungrigate events, have become overblown in some sort of Bigbang history revisionism

The truth is, if GD really thought Seungri was going to go to jail, or had any side illegal activities, he definitely wouldn't have aired his views in front of cameras, in a DVD recording available to everyone. Similar reasoning to every other incidence of 'prophecizing' the hyungs did. If the hyungs really suspected Seungri's club was out drugging and raping women, the stupidest way to have resolved it would have been to take it to TV. Not to mention how suddenly chilling it is if the hyungs actually did know and were complicit in the crimes, which I feel like a lot of these prophecy video retweeters don't consider.

At best, they thought (and I too thought at that time) that Seungri was maybe making bad money decisions, Lee Sangmin style.

I think its comforting to think the signs were always there, that the hyungs warned him but he didn't listen, that their relationships were fraught because of the whole Seungri never eats with us memes, that he was never a good person and he showed it all along but the fans shoved their head under the sand. But to characterize him as a 2D villain so that we don't have to struggle to reconcile the person we idolized before, and the crimes he's accused of now is only a disservice to us.

Seungri wasn't the only one who skipped out on dinners- TOP had that habit before Seungri, and i think it was even mentioned in Healing Camp (the whole gold medal thing). Seungri did like and love his hyungs unless he was the world's best actor. He talked Jiyong through things in 2009 when Jiyong read the comments asking him to comment suicide and cried on phone. He cried on Jiyong for 20 minutes in 2012 because he was disappointed in a hyung he idolized letting him down with the marijuana scandal. He texted Daesung within one minute on that Japanese show when he said he needed help, and cheered him up when he was dying of nerves before his concert. He saved Todae from getting hit by fireworks in Malaysia by physically hauling them away. When TOP was represented by a tower in variety shows, Seungri blatantly mentioned his name in Radio Star when everyone pretended he didn't exist. The kid we knew existed. It's just that there was another, more insidious side to him too. This is NOT a defence of Seungri, I just think there's been a lot of revisionism going on lately, about his character and his relationship with the band. Seungri is a shitty criminal, but sadly a criminal who did love his hyungs and fans in some way. Not everything that happened in the last 12 years is fake.

i remember feeling very grateful when Seungri showed up in Act 3 Motte and hugged Jiyong and Jiyong smiled for the first time in that whole damn tour. Jiyong loved that boy, and mentioned he was family to him so many times. Jiyong was the most attached to Seungri IMO (I guess since they were roommates back then and all), but Taeyang called him up in the military when he only had one call, forgoing his own damn wife. I think, the truly heartbreaking thing about this, is that Seungri was loved by his hyungs, and he did love his hyungs too.”

***

Do you know how many asks it would have taken to get this message to me had you gone that route after all? LOL, alright, here’s my reply (some of which will be behind a cut to save y’all’s dashboards). I’ll quote the parts I want to address in italics.

“The truth is, if GD really thought Seungri was going to go to jail, or had any side illegal activities, he definitely wouldn't have aired his views in front of cameras, in a DVD recording available to everyone.”

That's what we all thought too... and that's why we didn't take any of it seriously and casually wrote most of it off as jokes, bullying, teasing, playing, etc. And while I'm sure it was that in a way, at least in part, you know what they say: there's a grain of truth in every joke (or "a little bit of truth behind every 'just kidding'").

Many fans are also taking this as a sign of how serious the others were becoming in their warnings to him, as if they felt it was the only way to get through to him. I'm sure they had private conversations off-camera, but if they were williing to do it publicly? On national TV? (Radio Star, for example.) That appears to say something about the weight of their concerns and their attempts to reach him. (Also keep in mind that they've said they rarely saw him outside of band activities, that he was always running off as soon as events with them had ended, so who knows... maybe they felt that on camera was the only real chance they had to catch him and address him in person. Maybe they felt like it was the only way he would listen. So many maybes.)

Another thing: TOP's rather astute comments about Seungri's friends (that they seemed like bad people, that they were using him, that they weren't his true friends but were only attracted to his fame, etc)... I personally would not have said those things where the public could hear them were I in his position. There's nothing joking about it, nothing at all. He was very direct in his delivery and it was not something that could be laughed away even if you tried.

“If the hyungs really suspected Seungri's club was out drugging and raping women, the stupidest way to have resolved it would have been to take it to TV. Not to mention how suddenly chilling it is if the hyungs actually did know and were complicit in the crimes, which I feel like a lot of these prophecy video retweeters don't consider.”

Okay everyone, listen up. This is important. In all these videos being referenced by fans in recent days, it's not possible that the hyungs were hinting at the drugging and assault that occurred at "Seungri's club" (I still hesitate to call it that) because Burning Sun did not yet exist when these things were being said. The club Burning Sun opened in February 2018. The last time BB were together as a group (as four -- GD, YB, Daesung, Seungri) was during their Japan Dome Tour in December 2017. And TOP? January 2017.

(read the rest behind the cut)

Further information: GD enlisted in late February 2018 and YB & Daesung enlisted less then a month later in mid March. Burning Sun opened in February 2018 and closed a year later in February 2019 during Burning Sun gate. The videos floating around in which the hyungs appear to warn Seungri come primarily from their 2017 Welcoming Collection (filmed in late 2016), Run BIGBANG Scout (shot in summer 2016), and from various concerts and fanmeetings throughout 2016-2017.

It is true that people do need to be very cautious when speculating about just how much the others knew about what Seungri & Co got up to, seeing as how, when it comes to this type of crime, awareness of the crime can be quite damning in and of itself. But once you take these dates into account, I think the others should be fairly safe from that kind of dangerous speculation. The question then becomes, how much did they know about what Seungri & Co got up to in their own time?

That I’m not overly worried about. They made it quite clear on several occasions that they hated his friends. Why would they have had any involvement with them? And it’s difficult to imagine Seungri inviting them in, so to speak, knowing how they were always scolding him for one thing or another. The way I see it, he found his own flock and kept a tight formation. Birds of a feather and all that.

“At best, they thought (and I too thought at that time) that Seungri was maybe making bad money decisions, Lee Sangmin style.”

This is the assumption most fans seem to be going with. Additionally, they may have had some ideas about his treatment of women as well, especially taking into account his 2012 sex scandal with a Japanese woman in which he allegedly choked her during sex, never kissed her, and threw a towel at her when he was done (and after which Youngbae and Daesung moved in with him, evidently to keep an eye on him and help set him straight. I don’t know how much truth there is to this, but I’ve read that he seemed proud in the scandal’s aftermath because hey, people were finally viewing him as an adult. Talk about embracing one's bad boy image.)

On that note: if he was in fact proud of himself for getting caught up in a sex scandal back then because he felt like it made him more of a man, then what must he be feeling now? Bearing in mind the influence of his less-than-reputable friend group of the last few years? He's currently under suspicion of hooking up with prostitutes and offering them to his investors to grow his business, among other things. The public is calling him a pimp (not totally accurate but ok). His conduct lately is not that of a person who feels he's done anything wrong. He might even feel a little, well... pleased with himself. Hence that small but self-satisfied grin he's been wearing everywhere lately.

Hmm... Just some thoughts.

“But to characterize him as a 2D villain so that we don't have to struggle to reconcile the person we idolized before, and the crimes he's accused of now is only a disservice to us.”

I’m sorry you see it this way because that's not my intent at all. My goal is not to paint him as a villain but to simply show that the signs of trouble were there and to suggest that perhaps we shouldn't be as surprised as we are about recent revelations. That this isn't really coming at us -- or at the rest of BB for that matter -- completely out of the blue. I don't know about you, but I find that comforting. Understanding what went wrong and when helps me to better come to terms with what's happened here, and I've been hearing from quite a few others lately who say it's helped them too. It also reinforces my confidence in OT4′s ability to carry on, because if they expected him to leave them in the near future, it stands to reason that they had been mentally and emotionally readying themselves for it. We the fans are hurting enough; the last thing I want right now is for the members of BB to be hurting too.

I'm also hope my readers don’t think I’m suggesting that Seungri was never a good person or never did anything good for anyone. That’s not it at all. Nothing is ever that black and white. I won’t forget them or try to erase them, it’s just that right now I'm not very interested in reflecting on the “good times”... and I think most would agree. Those acts of kindness you're referencing in 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013... you might have noticed that I've been focusing on conversations between the guys that took place in 2016 onward. Between MADE era and the present day. Alive era, Tonight era... I'm not interested in examining those years, because I'm concentrating on the period of time after Seungri met his new circle of friends (Jung Joonyoung, Choi Jonghoon, Yoo In Suk, etc) and began spending more time with them than with the rest of BB. I'm certainly not implying that Seungri was always this way, but I do believe he had the potential to become it given the right -- or should I say wrong influences. And he found those influences. Or should I say they found him?

Now, this is just speculation, but BB's popularity exploded immensely during Alive in 2012.  After that the members of BB went their separate ways for a time to work on solo projects. They came together periodically for YG family tours, I know that much, but it wasn't until MADE in 2015 that they were promoting as five again. It can probably be assumed that it was during that absence when Seungri ~fell in with this bad crowd~ (I hate to use that phrase because it seems to absolve him of responsibility for his actions, but let’s just go with it for a sec). I suspect the sharp rise in fame went to his head and he became... let’s just say susceptible.

(If there are any Seungri stans still here, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the timeline or chime in with additional info. My knowledge of what the members were up to between Alive and MADE is pretty murky, seeing as I wasn't "there" for it in real time.)

“When TOP was represented by a tower in variety shows, Seungri blatantly mentioned his name in Radio Star when everyone pretended he didn't exist.”

Someone brought this up in an ask that I haven't answered (sorry anon!). While it's entirely possible that he did this out of the goodness of his own heart, it's also possible that he did it because he knew it was what the fans wanted... and Seungri is nothing if not good at giving people what they want. It might not have had anything to do with TOP's feelings at all. I also wonder if YB calling him while in the military may have been done more out of concern than affection -- i.e., checking in on him to make sure he stayed out of trouble.

...and that's if Seungri's story is even to be believed, i.e., "He called me instead of his wife, can you believe it?!" Seungri is not above using the others to draw eyes to himself and prop up his own popularity (as he did when he name dropped GD constantly during his Great Seungri promotions), and given the others' comments about him exaggerating and even flat-out making up stories that haven’t a shred of truth for attention... just saying I wouldn't put anything past him at this point.

“The kid we knew existed. It's just that there was another, more insidious side to him too.”

That's really all it boils down to. Although I don't much care for calling him a "kid" anymore. I know he likes to play up the cute maknae role and all when it benefits him, but it's never sat well with me because, well... dude's a grown man, and calling him "kid" in light of recent events feels very wrong. That "kid" image is long gone, and I say good riddance. (For the record, I don't much like it when the others go all aegyo on each other either; with them now in their late 20s - early 30s, I have to say it's gotten a little weird.)

“Seungri is a shitty criminal, but sadly a criminal who did love his hyungs and fans in some way. Not everything that happened in the last 12 years is fake. ... I think, the truly heartbreaking thing about this, is that Seungri was loved by his hyungs, and he did love his hyungs too.”

I believe in... their love for him to varying degrees. Some were closer than others, of course. This is why, in a previous post, I said that I won't be surprised if some of them decide to stay in Seungri's life as a positive influence behind the scenes. However, at the same time, I won't be surprised if they choose not to. The thing is, you can still remain friends with someone but recognize that the two of you just don't work well together anymore in a, well, work environment. The bonds of friendship are important, yes, but as I think we've seen lately... it isn't everything.

With what we know now, I believe that the tension we've seen building between Seungri and the other members over the last few years was rooted in Seungri losing his passion for music as his obsession with wealth and power took over. Greed got the best of him. And I’m sure he was frustrated; there were things he wanted from Big Bang that Big Bang could not give him.

Although his hyungs surely still cared for him, more or less, I can see why in the last few years they may have been uncomfortable continuing to work with him if they felt that he was staying for all the wrong reasons. If you're going to be part of a group of artists like this one, it helps with group morale, to be confident in the knowledge that you all share a common interest and are working toward a common goal. If the others' goal was in expressing themselves through their craft -- music and dance -- and connecting with the fans through their work, while Seungri saw it primarily as a means to an end (i.e., "It's just a paycheck") then yeah. I'd have found myself getting pretty irritated with him too.

In the end, you can care for someone and still distance yourself from them, for an abundance of reasons. I think many of us have been there with loved ones ourselves... and I believe that's what we're going to see happen in the coming months when the others come back. Hell, it's been happening for years right under our noses; the difference now is they don't have to try to hide it anymore.