#& fundamentally antizionism is asking jews to put their lives in the hands of the same people who saw six million jews screaming for refuge

[indecisiveavocado]

using this to show goyim the kind of stuff jews face

brief note: for quotes, some were replying to other users. Because I do not want them to be harassed, I have removed their name when it appears, and if that bothers you, you are welcome to make a world where I don't need to worry about that. I have also generally not mentioned the name of the antisemites, although in some cases I have, generally if the rhetoric was ridiculously antisemitic and/or I considered it worth flagging so Jews would know they should probably block that user.

further brief note: trigger warnings obviously apply here.

even briefer note: this is a long post

These are actual quotes, by the way.

ACTUAL GODDAMN QUOTES

For reference, here is my post in its entirety:

why are jews skeptical of antizionism? a guide for gentiles I'd be ok with the notion Israel wasn't needed if y'all could be trusted not to fuck it up when Jews needed somewhere to flee. But last time (to put it politely) you fucked it up real bad, and six million Jews died. Fundamentally, antizionism is asking Jews to put our lives in the hands of the same people who saw us screaming for help, who knew that death awaited us, and did all of nothing. Nada. Nil. (As demonstrated by the recent Amsterdam pogrom, Israel is totally ok and often proactive in flying Jews out. Around the same time as Palestinians were being exiled, Jews from all over the Arab world were being driven out in similar numbers. The reason you don't hear about that refugee crisis? Israel accepted them, without complaint or delay or objection, just urgency.) Pardon us for being a bit skeptical of your assertions that it won't happen again when a constant theme throughout our history has been it happening again. This is a slightly modified form of an older, longer, post's tags/tldr.

and the tags:

jumblr, jewish, jewblr, antisemitism, judaism, israel, jewish tumblr, tw antisemitism, anti zionism, shoah mention, tw shoah, amsterdam, amsterdam pogrom, jewish history.

Nothing horribly unreasonable. I made no comments on Gaza. I said I supported the existence of the state of Israel, which is different from supporting its policies. Regardless of what China does to Uyghurs, Uyghurs can and should not take over all of China. You would not be able to reasonably make an inference on my support, or lack thereof, for Israel's conduct in Gaza.

Here are some of the replies in the chat. Bolding is mine.

Israel only exists because the us gave asylum, ended the war and created israel. To turn around and say they did nothing is a gross mistelling of history but i get it, youre jewish. Rewriting history to glorify yourself and demonize everyone else is the cornerstone of your culture

“Pogrom” 🙄 so fucking disrespectful to the actual casualties of historical pogroms around the world. Your football fans couldn’t handle not being racist for five minutes. That shit may fly in Israel but not in Europe. [from a non Jew, seemingly; by the way, the pogrom, which has been widely called such by Jews and was called "reminiscent of a pogrom" by Deborah Lipstadt, current US Special Envoy to Combat Antisemitism, was premediated, before any of that happened, and as I've said before, even if someone is wearing a Trump 2024 shirt and jabbers about woke threats to the country, that is not an excuse to throw them in an almost-freezing river and not let them out until they say "Harris Walz 2024!"]

Why don't you look at your fucking religion for the foot if your problems and you think that you are now safe in occupied Palestine? We are going to sweep you back like garbage. Hi and get your revenge from those who turned you into soap [note that later they say they're Semitic. Those who turned us into soap were European. They're not the same. Unless they're saying Palestinians were Nazis...?]

I'm actually saying the username here, because Jews should immediately put them on their blocklist: michmanbiker. Also from Michmanbiker after I called them antisemitic:

Anti Jewish!!!! I am Semite [sic] and 99 % of Jews are slav mongrels. So cut the bullshit

[I should note here that:

Regardless of its original meaning, antisemitic now means anti-Jewish. It's like how "slave" was originally a synonym of Slav, but you'd be laughed out of the room if you referred to them as synonyms today.

Most Israelis are not Ashkenazi--from central/Eastern Europe, where Slavs live. Most of them are Sephardim -- from Spain, generally living in the Middle East for centuries before being driven out due to an outbreak of antisemitism following the foundation of the State of Israel

Both Sephardim and Ashkenazim are recognizably Middle Eastern genetically

Considering the historical situation in which Jews lived - frequently killed, dispersed as slaves, et cetera - and Judaism frowning on intermarriage and having few converts, it is reasonable to assume that a fair portion of that ancestry is from rape. It's also worth flagging that traditionally Jewish status is passed on from the mother, because the Romans raped so many Jewish women that the rabbis changed it, and there has been a whole book written about gendered violence [read: sexual violence] in the pogroms, as well as one about sexual violence in the Holocaust. This is effectively blaming Jews for being raped.]

One user said the following about Israel:

I go into youre property and say i want the half of it

This superficially sounds reasonable. As I replied, it is not:

No. Two people are living in a region. One is lesser in number because they were *forcibly exiled as slaves*. A neutral group draws up a plan for two states. One group accepts it. The other group, aided by every other country around them, rejects it and attempts to destroy the other group. Miraculously, the smaller group not only survives, but takes some land. (It also loses some - Jews were expelled from the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem following the first war).

From thegreatkhan, who I am again naming because they seem fairly active and at first glance reasonably innocuous in name and description:

How about you stop playing victim and just admit that the world is fucking tired of Israel atrocities?

I replied,

you realize that it's not inherent to a state of Israel? Zionism does not imply being a supporter of every action of Israel. It means being a supporter of the fact that Israel gets to exist. It's like confusing "Americanism" (to coin a phrase), which properly refers to "yes, the United States of America gets to exist" with "from 2017-early 2021 you supported every single action taken by the US government!!!". Or, for you (since you're Spanish), confusing thinking that Spain as a country should exist with supporting the Spanish Inquisition.

Instead of engaging with this, he repeated the precise same thing.

And

Isrelies are not a fucking marginalized community. If they were a marginalized community they would not be getting billions in help from the United States. [note that he's conflating Israel with Jews]

Considering your [not mine; this was in a reply to another user] post about the dropout apology, I don't care much about whatever you have to say. Israel is committing genocide, and supporting the existence of Israel in any way shape or form is the same as supporting said genocide. [So if I think Myanmar should not have been colonized by the British, I'm supporting the Rohingya genocide?] If people believe that the land of Israel belongs to them for some kind of special gift or god [that's not why I said it should exist - I am agnostic] then that's their problem. Nobody is special, and there's no excuse to go around stealing houses and land then claiming you are the victim. I desire the worst for anyone that supports Israel, whatever their background. [I have yet to see any examples of thegreatkhan harassing Evangelical Christian users, who are generally also pro-Israel. If that's false, I welcome corrections. But when you only harass Jews, instead of the much, much, larger Evangelical Christian segment of Zionism, it comes off as sketchy]

Michmanbiker drops in:

Jews are not a race they are a religion [we're both, it's called an ethnoreligion, it's fascinating!], a filthy one at that, 99% of Jews don't have one drop of Semite blood in their veins. The whole premise for that abhorrent thing you call Israel is based on a lie. Everything Jewish is a lie including Jews being Jews as you are all sons and daughters of Shikshas. Your common traits are cowardly, evil meek and weak. I guess that makes you a people.

Switching back to thegreatkhan's better concealed antisemitism (michmanbiker is actually fairly weird, their rhetoric is closer to rightwing antisemitism, but they are clearly left-wing. Evidence in support of the horseshoe theory):

How about you isrelies stop committing genocide? It's a pet peeve of mine, sorry.

This is my response:

I...I'm not Israeli. I've never even been to Israel. The only way for you to infer that I'm Israeli from this post is to have a) not looked at my profile, where I say I am a Pittsburgher, and you may not realize this but PITTSBURGH IS NOT IN ISRAEL, which is in itself ok, and b) assumed that everyone Jewish [or Zionist, I forgot to mention that] is Israeli. I have no more ability to influence Bibi than you do. I am not a citizen of Israel and, despite y'all, I am not planning on becoming one soon. I have never been to Palestine. I don't see how I could possibly be committing genocide. Oh, that's right! You equate all Jews with Israelis! Gee, that's not antisemitic. Hey, while we're doing this - how the hell do you justify supporting the Spanish Inquisition, which you clearly do, since you're Spanish [it's in his profile]? How about Spanish colonization? What do you think of Columbus's genocidal actions? Very hypocritical of you to support genocide (what do you think Columbus did, what are you, brainwashed) when it's the Spanish doing it, but hate it when it's the Jews. Spain shouldn't exist, it should all be given to the Basques. All Spanish people (except for the Basques of course) are devils (hey, you called Israelis that [no, I'm not joking, I wish I was joking], it's not like genocide is any less bad when it's in the past)! Oh and by the way I'm not anti-Spanish cause ACKSHULLY Spanish can also refer to Basques and I'm pro-Basque."

thegreatkhan completely missed the point and replied

I actually left Spain years ago [so you were there, which means my extremeness was slightly more justified than yours], and never looked back, and I'm working hard, (through legal means, and not just arriving at a new place and throwing someone out of their house like isrelies do [Tel Aviv was founded legally, most of them were founded legally, after purchasing land, and this was after we had been thrown out of our house - right of return, anyone?]) to bring my dad over. I'm a Spanish republican, and andalucian. I do believe that Basque country should be independent [christ, it was an example!], same as many of other Spanish counties that have been for centuries treated like shit by the central fascist government of franco. Unlike isrelies, i actually work hard to put my money where my mouth is, but I can't expect a tribe of child killers and rapists to comprehend that.

(The child killer argument, by the way, was frequently used to justify violence against Jews in the MIddle Ages. Worth flagging.)

All of this on a post that mentioned supporting the existence of a country. For no other country are supporting the country's existence and actions conflated. If someone says that they don't think Russia should be invaded and taken over by Finland, we don't accuse them of supporting Putin and genocide in Ukraine. If someone says that they don't think Eritrea should be invaded by Ethiopia, we don't accuse them of supporting what's been called the African North Korea. If someone says Afghanistan shouldn't be taken over by Pakistan, we don't accuse them of supporting the Taliban. If someone says why they don't support the British taking over Myanmar (again), we don't accuse them of supporting the Rohingya genocide. If someone says they don't think France should recolonize Mauritania, we don't accuse them of supporting slavery (Mauritania being the last country to outlaw slavery, in the 1980s, and, according to some estimates, a fifth of their population is enslaved). If they don't think the UK should conquer Iran, we don't accuse them of supporting sharia law and despising women. If they say Turkey shouldn't take over Saudi Arabia, we don't accuse them of hating women.

In fact, in many of those cases, it doesn't come up. It's accepted: of course Tibetans shouldn't run China, of course Russia has a right to exist, even if it commits atrocities.

All of those countries I listed--Russia, China, Eritrea, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Mauritania, Iran, Saudi Arabia--are committing human rights abuses, sometimes genocide. But you still don't need to explain why China and Myanmar deserve to exist.

[indecisiveavocado]

why I support the existence of the state of Israel (TW: Antisemitism, Shoah)

There's a tl;dr in the tags (starting after am yisrael chai assuming it doesn't get reordered by the Tumblr Gods)

Antisemitism has been pretty much a constant throughout Jewish history. Current reprieves appear temporary (historical ones were). And, while it would still be bad, I would be okayer with the state of Israel not existing if the world had demonstrated a strong track record that, where/whenever Jews were persecuted, they would immediately accept them in. It still wouldn't be great, but it would be okay.

But the world hasn't done that. Let's take the biggest example: the Holocaust. The world was silent - despicably so, even though any reasonable person would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt (shitload of citations available upon request, since I don't want to clog this up, but start by looking at the USHMM on America and the holocaust). The world had a perfect opportunity to show Jews they wouldn't fuck it up, and they failed.

Miserably.

(In contrast, Israel has a long history of helping Jews in antisemitic areas.)

So: we've established that a) antisemitism exists and likely will continue to and b) the world's governments, when given the opportunity, failed miserably at showing Jews they could be trusted to not leave us dying. A Jewish state could reasonably be expected not to abandon Jews. So a way to help alleviate concerns about antisemitism is to establish a Jewish state.

But where?

Jews are indigenous to the area roughly around Israel (again, shitload of citations available, but start by looking at the Wikipedia page of genetic studies on Jews, of which they also have many citations). It doesn't make sense to displace another group, and it seems reasonable to, if needed, make the state on their historic land. If one was to create a Romani state, it would be odd to put it in Nunavut, Canada. If you were able to get the residents of Portland and a few surrounding counties to agree to voluntarily become part of a Jewish state, I'd consider it. But, absent such an alternative, the default should be where Jews are indigenous to -- the Levant, or thereabouts. Borders are more tricky, but this isn't about the current incarnation of the state of Israel. It's about its hypothetical existence and blanket antizionist positions.

[indecisiveavocado]

why are jews skeptical of antizionism? a guide for gentiles

I'd be ok with the notion Israel wasn't needed if y'all could be trusted not to fuck it up when Jews needed somewhere to flee. But last time (to put it politely) you fucked it up real bad, and six million Jews died.

Fundamentally, antizionism is asking Jews to put our lives in the hands of the same people who saw us screaming for help, who knew that death awaited us, and did all of nothing. Nada. Nil.

(As demonstrated by the recent Amsterdam pogrom, Israel is totally ok and often proactive in flying Jews out. Around the same time as Palestinians were being exiled, Jews from all over the Arab world were being driven out in similar numbers. The reason you don't hear about that refugee crisis? Israel accepted them, without complaint or delay or objection, just urgency.)

Pardon us for being a bit skeptical of your assertions that it won't happen again when a constant theme throughout our history has been it happening again.

This is a slightly modified form of an older, longer, post's tags/tldr.