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reyloismyship · 5 years ago

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Debunking antis’s arguments against Reylo:

1) “Reylo promotes pedophilia”

“Pedophilia” is considered a mental illness and “pedophiles” are adults who have sexual attraction towards children (human beings between birth and puberty). According to WebMD, a “pedophile is a person who has a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger”.

Rey is 19 years old in “The Force Awakens”, while Kylo Ren is either 29 or 30 years old. Rey has passed the age of consent and adulthood in most countries (18 years old). Therefore a romantic relationship between these two characters doesn’t qualify as “pedophilia”.

It’s worth mentioning that Han Solo was 32 years old in “A New Hope” while Princess Leia was 19, and no one sees a problem with that.

2) “Reylo promotes incest”

Ben Solo is the only son of Han Solo and Princess Leia while Rey (as confirmed by “The Last Jedi”) is the daughter of an unknown couple from Jakku, therefore they share no blood relation whatsoever.

3) “Reylo is an abusive/toxic ship”

Reylo is not abusive because they are two enemies fighting on opposite sides of a war and not an actual couple (yet).

When they first meet, Rey is in possession of information about the map to Luke Skywalker the First Order wants. Kylo Ren knows Rey is the girl who helped BB-8 (the Resistance droid who has the map) and Finn (a First Order traitor) escape Jakku, and therefore see her as an enemy:

So even if Rey wasn’t a “official” member of the Resistance at the time, she was still assisting and aligning with them by harboring and helping BB-8 and Finn (who pretended to be a Resistance fighter). She was working against the First Order, making her Kylo Ren’s enemy.

However, if you consider fighting your enemies “abusive�� or interrogating war prisoners as “domestic violence”, one can say the Star Wars saga is filled with abuse:

Do you consider Obi-Wan fighting Darth Maul abuse?

Or Anakin dueling Count Dooku and later beheading him?

Dooku vs. Yoda?

Obi-Wan vs. Anakin?

Or even a father cutting his own son’s hand off?

In “Revenge of the Sith” Yoda gave Anakin Skywalker the same advice Kylo Ren gave Rey in “The Last Jedi”: was he “gaslighting” Anakin as well?

If you don’t classify male characters dueling each other as “abuse”, why is it “abuse” when a female character fights a male character? Is it due to the fact that Rey is a woman, and therefore you patronize her for it? Either way, that’s some serious sexist bullshit right there.

4) “Kylo Ren is a monster and the villain of the story.”

This originates from a biased hatred against Kylo Ren and misunderstanding of his past as Ben Solo.

It’s been well established that Leia and Han were neglectful parents to their son Ben: Leia was more concerned with building the New Republic while Han wanted to fly around the galaxy. Instead of actually raising their child, both Han and Leia cared more about their work. Han also didn’t believe in the Force, and mocked it in “A New Hope”: can you imagine his reaction when his only son turned out to be Force sensitive?

However, there was a dark presence targeting Ben Solo ever since he was in Leia’s womb, and she knew it. From “The Force Awakens” novelization:

Leia bit her lower lip, refusing to concede. “No. It was Snoke.”

Han drew back slightly. “Snoke?”

She nodded. “He knew our child would be strong with the Force. That he was born with equal potential for good or evil.”

“You knew this from the beginning? Why didn’t you tell me?”

She sighed. “Many reasons. I was hoping that I was wrong, that it wasn’t true. I hoped I could sway him, turn him away from the dark side, without having to involve you.” A small smile appeared. “You had — you have — wonderful qualities, Han, but patience and understanding were never among them. I was afraid that your reactions would only drive him further to the dark side. I thought I could shield him from Snoke’s influence and you from what was happening.” Her voice dropped. “It’s clear now that I was wrong. Whether your involvement would have made a difference, we’ll never know.”He had trouble believing what he was hearing.

“So Snoke was watching our son.”

“Always,” she told him. “From the shadows, in the beginning, even before I realized what was happening, he was manipulating everything, pulling our son toward the dark side.”

However, it was now been confirmed by a new “The Rise of Skywalker” promo it was not Snoke who was keeping an eye on Ben Solo: it was Palpatine. I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head, Palpatine tells Ben, meaning he was behind everything, including Snoke.

Not only Ben has been manipulated and brainwashed all of his life because he’s the Skywalker heir, we’ve also seen Snoke physically harming/torturing him (in both comics and films) as well:

And belittling him:

Ben Solo was all alone, with absent parents and a dark presence over him. On top of that, Leia sent him away to Luke’s academy and Ben felt like his mother was abandoning him (confirmed by “The Last Jedi” novelization).

Ben didn’t want to be a Jedi knight: he wanted to be a pilot like Han (also confirmed by TLJ novel). He probably dreamt of flying the Millenium Falcon himself.

In the comics, Snoke took Ben to Dagogah, where he had to face the Dark side cave (like Luke in the OT). There he saw his parents and couldn’t bring himself to harm them (more on Han’s death later):

He couldn’t bring himself to kill his mother in “The Last Jedi”:

The new “Rise of Kylo Ren” comics will shed more light on his past, but we already know:

He didn’t slaughter his fellow Jedi students: believing Ben murdered Luke, the other students tried to kill him. Some chased him off the planet and Ben ran to the only person in the galaxy he thought he could trust: Snoke. Ben eventually won the fight against his colleagues but it wasn’t a slaughter like initially presumed;

He fought the Knights of Ren in the past when he went on a mission with Luke: he became their leader somehow, but they weren’t his friends from the Jedi Academy (like Luke believed).

Kylo Ren’s redemption is pretty much confirmed for “The Rise of Skywalker”. And let’s not forget “Ben Solo” was named after Leia’s “only hope”:

5) “Kylo kidnapped and tortured Rey. He did the equivalent to mind-rape her.”

Kylo Ren did kidnap Rey but he did not torture her.

To drive this point home J.J. showed us two interrogations scenes with Kylo Ren, one with Poe and one with Rey. As a director, J.J. made the conscious choice to show us the same scene twice (Kylo Ren interrogating his enemies) so the audience can spot the differences between the two:

His scene with Poe shows how he usually interrogates his prisoners. Kylo Ren is standing up like a menacing presence. Poe was unconscious and Kylo brutally awakens him. Poe has been beaten down (probably by the Stormtroopers) and his face is injured:

Kylo invades his mind until he screams of pain:

Now, let’s look at Rey’s interrogation scene. Kylo allows Rey to wake up by herself (instead of waking her up like he did with Poe). He’s also sitting down instead of standing (like he did with Poe). His first words to her are a reassurement he doesn’t know about her friends’ whereabouts. He also talks in a soft voice instead of being aggressive and assertive like he was with Poe.

Rey is untouched, unlike what happened with Poe earlier:

And when Rey calls him “a creature in a mask”, he unmasks for her:

In the novelization it was confirmed, Kylo didn’t want to invade Rey’s mind:

When she maintained her silence, he almost sighed. “I can take whatever I want.”

Her muscles tightened. “Then you don’t need me to tell you anything.”

“True.” He rose, resigned. “I would have preferred to avoid this. Despite what you may believe, it gives me no pleasure. I will go as easily as possible – but I will take what I need.”

The Force Awakens Novelization

However, Rey also invaded his mind, so did she mind-raped him too or this argument only works because Rey is a female character?

Even as he [Kylo] callously rifled through her mind, he had somehow revealed his own. Rey found herself in his mind even as he invaded hers. Kylo had retreated at finding Rey in his head – had practically fled from her. But that had not been the end of that strange, sudden connection. She had seen more – far more. Somehow, almost instinctually, she knew how he accessed some of the powers at his commend – even though she didn’t understand them. It was as if his training had become hers, unlocking and flinging open door after door in her mind.

The Last Jedi Novelization

Surprise: Kylo Ren invading Rey’s mind is what awakened her Force powers and they connected with each other after this scene. There is nothing romantic per say, but their connection started here.

Also this line:

But, the nature of their [Rey and Kylo] relationship itself was also briefly touched upon by [Rayne] Roberts. Stopping short of actually calling their relationship romantic or sexual, Roberts did heavily imply there is a thing between them. And that it was an idea that originated with Force Awakens co-screenwriter Lawrence Kasdan. “It’s something Larry Kasdan used to talk about when we were doing Force Awakens,” Roberts said. “It’s not in the script, but when he [Kylo Ren] peers into her [Rey’s] mind there’s something profound that happens between them. The way Larry used to describe it is that there’s this energy between them. Like this kind of almost…I don’t want to say it…but something a little bit more than you would expect.”

The line that fans almost never seem to talk about in The Force Awakens is when Kylo says to Rey “Don’t be afraid, I feel it too.” What did he feel? That they had a crush on each other? Seems like yes.

(source)

6) “Kylo Ren destroyed several planets with Starkiller Base.”

No. It was General Hux who gave the command to destroy the New Republic’ planets in the Hosnian system but it was Snoke who ordered it.

In “The Force Awakens” novelization, Kylo Ren directly opposes to this:

Snoke: (…) I want the entire Illeenium system destroyed.

Daring to disagree, Ren took a step forward. “No – Supreme Leader, I can get the map from the girl, and that will be the end of it. I just need your guidance”.

It was also played this way in the film, according to the TFA script:

SNOKE Good. Then we will crush them once and for all. Prepare the weapon.

Kylo Ren is stunned by the moment – that isn’t what he meant at all –

KYLO REN: Supreme Leader, I can get the map from the girl. I just need your guidance.

7) “Kylo killed Rey’s father figure in front of her!”

Han’s death was not about Rey. It was about Ben Solo and Leia and their family. Even separated, Han and Leia have a history and a child together, and his death had a deep affect on her character. Han’s death haunts her still in “The Last Jedi”, and she might even feel guilty about it since she’s the one who persuaded Han to bring Ben home.

Also, J.J. Abrams confirmed it was her son’s regret in killing his own father that Leia felt through the Force:

As J.J. says, killing Han was part of Kylo’s training in the Dark side. It was his “sacrifice”: a test all Sith initiates must pass and in which they have to kill a loved one to complete their training. In the end, Ben truly loved his father and Snoke knew it. By killing Han Solo, Kylo Ren was suppose to complete his training in the Dark side:

However, and like Snoke confirmed in “The Last Jedi”, he failed. The “sacrifice test” is suppose to make Sith apprentices stronger in the Dark side of the Force, but Kylo is more broken than ever and he regrets killing his father.

8) “Kylo chased Finn and Rey outside Starkiller Base to fight them! He threw Rey against a tree!”

Indeed he did, but I’ll just let Kylo say for himself what he wanted from them:

You probably wouldn’t be too thrilled if you saw someone just walking away with your family’s heritage, would you? He wanted Anakin’s lightsaber back.

As for him throwing Rey into a tree, she was about to shoot him with a blaster. And if I recalled correctly, she had her vengeance on him, alright:

She could have killed him right there, but the Force separated them. Rey goes to join the Resistance and Kylo Ren is rescued by the First Order.

9) “Kylo Ren pretended to be nice during their Force Bond scenes so he could manipulate Rey into join him. He only wants to use her for her power.”

Yeah… no. This argument is fallacious and it comes from a biased hatred against Kylo Ren’s character. The guy wears his heart on a sleeve: he’s not a master manipulator like these people believe him to be. Also the “proposal scene” in the Throne Room destroys this idea completely.

10) “Kylo Ren tried to turn Rey against Luke to isolate her and better manipulate her.”

Expect… Luke actually tried to kill him at his Jedi Academy so how is it manipulation if it’s the truth? Luke himself admitted this to Rey and later to his nephew and apologized, so invalid point is invalid.

13) “Rey’s eyes are filled with hatred when she reunites Kylo!”

Error 404 Hate Not Found.

She literally shipped herself to him and was filled with hope due to her vision of a redeemed Ben Solo. Her expression turns apprehensive when she sees the Stormtroppers coming to get her and bringing handcuffs. That goes out of the window when she has a moment alone with him in the elevator:

Oh, yes, they clearly want to bang hate each other.

14) “Kylo Ren didn’t kill Snoke to save Rey: he did it to take control over the First Order.”

Did he, tho? Kylo had hundreds of opportunities to kill Snoke during their training and when there were no guards around, and yet he waiting for the Throne Room scene, when his master explicitly demands him to murder Rey as his second sacrifice test. This was Kylo’s expression when Snoke was torturing Rey:

Remember what I said about Han’s death? Snoke wanted Kylo to kill Rey to complete his journey to the Dark side: “complete your training and fulfill your destiny.” Snoke was aware of Kylo’s feelings for Rey and therefore wanted him to sacrifice the woman he loves to prove himself strong with the Dark side (because he failed the test with his father’s death).

He fails the test again because he killed his master instead of Rey. Kylo himself is stunned by his action after their fight against the Elite Praetorian guards is over:

Early on, Snoke also promised to Rey:

The “cruelest stroke” means his apprentice killing her: and why would it be the worst way for Rey to die if she doesn’t have feelings for Ben?

15) “Kylo Ren used Rey’s parents to manipulating her into staying with him.”

This is most hilarious argument of them all because he straightforward tells Rey she’s “nothing”. One would expect a master manipulator to be more charming and gifted with words… you know… to actually manipulate people in doing their biding.

Same vibe as:

In case you aren’t aware, the actors who auditioned for Kylo Ren has to perform pieces from “Pride and Prejudice”, according to Eddie Redmayne.

Also, this scene had a point: it was the revelation of Rey’s parents. She knew all along whom her parents were. And she’s the one who calls them “nobody”. That’s a weird choice of words to ones’ parents but the point was: they were not legacy characters. Hence her not having a place in this story (the Skywalker saga) until Anakin Skywalker called for her.

As for Kylo, he was being an entitled prick in this scene (pretty much like Darcy in “Pride and Prejudice”). He’s a prince, after all, and has been used by everyone around him due to his Skywalker blood. He was repeating what he’s been told all of his life (he only mattered because he’s a Skywalker). However, he uses the word “but” and shakes his head: meaning he doesn’t think that she’s nothing: she’s someone and important to him. However, he expressed himself in the worst way possible. Also, his entitlement reminds me of someone:

This scene also paralleled this one from “Revenge of the Sith”:

Also, Kylo doesn’t say he wants them to rule together as “master and apprentice”. He wants Rey to be his empress (he had a vision of Dark!Rey when they touched hands): he’s literally proposing by offering her the entire galaxy.

16) “He tried to kill her again! He ordered his men to shoot the Millennium Falcon! And he said to Luke he would destroy her!”

Yes, he most certainly did. However, Chewie was the one piloting the ship and in their last encounter he shot him in the stomach. Also he has good reason to hate that ship. Kylo did sense Rey’s presence nearby but he already knew she would be there with the Resistance. Kylo was enraged and talking crap out of anger: Rey left him for dead on the Supremacy and he felt betrayed.

However, this was his actual reaction when he saw her again:

Does he look like a man full of hate and desire to murder his sworn enemy? No.

Now feel free to continue to ignore the canon.

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