ramblingsofthegoldenwitch

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Title: Dolls of Rokkenjima 2.0

Music: Melanie Martinez - Dollhouse

Anime: Umineko no naku koro ni

Why is it good?: Good editing, lyrics matching with what we're shown and well serving the story that the video tells, pacing fitting with the music. In short it's not only very pleasant to watch but it's also a good way to get a feeling of the Umineko story.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Hello! I remember love reading your blog about Umineko, because there is really nothing more enjoyable to find other people who like Umineko! I noticed you haven't updated things for a while, but I hope you are around to read this ask. I was interested in asking you come on as a guest to When We Cry podcast, we are a 07th expansion fan podcast group. Since I always liked your analysis, I thought you might be interested. - Mushroom

Thank you for loving to read my blog.

Due to lack of time and other issues I hadn’t had the time to update this blog anymore.

I thank you for the invitation but my mother tongue isn’t English. I can write it decently enough so that people can understand it, but when we’re talking about speaking it I’m really not up to the task.

So really, thank you so much for the invitation, I’m honoured you remembered my blog and thought to invite me, but I’ll have to decline.

Sorry about it.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

[MMV] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Welcome to Rokkenjima (ItaSub)

Continua a leggere

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Sad new years news

So this new year starts with a friend of mine warning me she was looking through my post and found this.

For who’s not aware adult content for Tumblr means photo depicting nudity, sex or genitals.

So today I had to go through all my posts 1239 posts (this one will be the 1240 one) to check what they saw that contained nudity, sex or genitals because sure as hell I don’t remember posting anything as such.

So searching I discovered they flagged:

- Umineko Voice Drama Vol 11-20 [which has covers of the voice dramas in which the Umineko cast is dressed and not engaging in sex though yes, in some covers they also wear swimsuits but Tumblr didn’t ban suimsuits from their guidelines]

- Umineko Voice Drama Vol 21-24 + Extra [which has covers of the voice dramas in which the Umineko cast is dressed and not engaging in sex though yes, in some covers they also wear swimsuits but Tumblr didn’t ban suimsuits from their guidelines]

- Yasuda Sayo (Shannon) - Coloured manga versions from Ep 1 to 8 + Tsubasa (+ 2 B&W versions as there are not coloured version for Ep 4 & 5) [9 colour pics of Shannon’s face from the various manga]

- Character comparison in their various incarnations through the various media. [basically faces of the cousins as they look in the various manga, anime, novels and such]

This is all I could find and I’ve already sent appeals but, if you reblogged them from me, they’ll appear as flagged on your blog too. For this I apologize but really, I couldn’t guess characters face would look as porn to Tumblr... -_-

Please, everyone, warn me if you find a content you reblogged from me as flagged so that I can send an appeal. I apologize again for bothing you all and I wish you good new year.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

I have a theory about homosexual mannerisms of Ronove: He is based in Genji and really look like young Genji in ep8, that means Sayo probably saw an old Genji's picture, maybe one where young Kinzo was too. All her life Sayo has watch how Genji is absolutely loyal and dedicate to Kinzo Maybe Sayo thinks Genji is really gay and is in love with Kinzo! So she created Ronove like a man more openly homosexual and like Battler really look like young Kinzo, obviously Ronove is very interesed in him

Well,

I’m a supporter as well of the idea Genji might have been in love with Kinzo, whcih would make his situation really sad as Kinzo was completely lost for Beatrice... but would also make mure understandable why he’s acts in such a way with him and how, once Kinzo died, he’s longing for death, pardon, repose in the Golden Land, as well.

Sayo might have caught up on this and she might have believed if young Genji had met Battler he would have pursued him as well... possibly subconsciously trying to reproduce the dynamics between Beatrice, Kinzo and Genji with herself, Battler and Ronove.

Just my speculation though.

I’m not really fond of how Ronove seems to try to force himself on Battler...

...but I guess the story is again going for contrappasso more as Battler tried to harrass the female cast as well (which is another thing I’m not fond of).

I guess I don’t find harrassment as funny but maybe that's just me.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

This is a funny question but, what do you think about the Ange and Virgilia declaration about Battler is an uke? Do you think he the uke between Sayo/Beatrice and he? I really love "Angel of 17 years" I really wish someone adapt it to manga -w-

Hum...

I guess my opinion on the whole story might be a bit unusual from the rest of the fandom so feel free to skip it.

Although it’s presented as a funny AU in a way I view this little story as a subtle way to point out how we (and Ange) actually are no better than the Witch Hunter who were writing stories about Ange’s family.

Ange and Virgilia decide to write yaoi tales about who, for them, is real people, like Ange’s brother and they do it for their own amusement, sharing it with other people, actually selling them for other people’s amusement as well.

But what is really meaningful is how the story describes them as forcing the pieces into it.

We’re told over and over the pieces are not moving out of their own free will, which means whatever sex scene is going on is forced and therefore the equivalent of rape and yet... since the whole thing is presented in a light mood, we’re amused by two characters being forced to have sex together and act in a certain way even if they aren’t doing it out of their own free will.

The story kept on telling us that the pieces aren’t consenting, that they’re forced to move or say things by the writers.

It’s basically rape over and over but... we don’t even realize it because the writing doesn’t dwell on the drama. It seems fun, comedic, as if we were joking with the characters.

And, I think, the whole thing is meant to parallel how all those people writing about the Rokkenjima tragedy felt.

In their stories they would force X or Y to act in ways that weren’t the ones in which they had acted without respect for those people... but I doubt they realized they were hurting someone.

It’s not just Tohya who did it to pin the blame on Eva (although Eva wasn’t the real culprit) without caring about Ange. Many, many writers were writing just for the fun of it, forgetting those people were real people with real relatives who might be affected by such representations.

It’s made clear in Ep 8 how Battler’s happy version of what happened that day was being rejected, even if possible.

Don’t this scene paralells how Ange insists for twists?

Ange: “Stop! The master servant relationship is okay and all, but isn' there any twist to it? If not, it's not exciting. Hey, you two, back to the start position!“

And the whole Battler is an uke that’s decided merely because it’s popular among the fans (like how Will shouldn’t be paired with anyone else but Lion) isn’t paralleling how the Battler culprit theory has plenty of followers even if it’s actually wrong?

Of course in Umineko the pieces are depicted as ‘less resisting’ because, conveniently, they’re sort of replaced with other pieces.

They didn’t have Battler do the murder they used ‘black Battler’ so as to spare us of the drama of seeing a piece Battler move against his wills to massacre his own family... though some pointed out how there are hints Black Battler isn’t actually having so much fun as he claims he’s having.

But really, I see no difference between the way Ange plays with the ‘Battler is an absolute uke’ theory and the way people played with the ‘Battler culprit’ theory.

I guess the whole tale is meant to be an experiement in the contrappasso, one in which it’s Ange who’s writing stories that torment her brother opposed to how Tohya tormented her with his tales, which is fitting as the contrappasso is used so much in Dante’s Divina Commedia... but it’s also meant to show us how prone we actually can be to undervalue the whole problem of writing tales on real people regardless of said people.

We might think bad of the witch hunters because Umineko put great emphasis on how harmful they were... but Ange’s actions, which are exactly the same as she too is playing with real people, slip past our radar because the thing is presented as humorous, funny. We mistake them for fictional characters when the story makes clear that the Battler Ange is talking about and using for her own stories is still HER BROTHER and therefore a real person and that the relationships she’s talking about aren’t ones his brother want to have.

‘Angel of 17 years’fundamentally feels like a story that’s meant to bring us the point of view of those who used the Ushiromiya family for their own amusement and gain and let us understand why no one felt that disgusted by them until Hachijo Tohya denounced it. It seemed a fun, harmless pasttime.

We know the characters involved don’t agree with how they’re being represented, we know they’re acting out of character but who cares? It’s fun... and we don’t really see them facing terrible consequences. We aren’t meant to think that there could be consequences.

But what if Ange and Virgilia were really allowed to write her HideyoshiXLion story and someone were to suspect Hideyoshi of harrassing his nephew? or Gohda to abuse of Kanon?

What if all of her ‘Battler is an absolute uke’ stories were to lead Battler to being bullied or harrassed? Or worse, if Kyrie were to read up a RudolfXBattler she might end up on killing him.

The whole KinzoXGenji would likely affect Kinzo’s business as those weren’t times in which people were okay with this.

Mind you, said this, I’ve no problems with REAL people playing with Umineko characters, writing yaoi stories with Battler being whatever they please because Battler, in the real world, is just a fictional character created for our own entertainment.

But ‘Angel of 17 years’ don’t talk of Ange playing with fictional characters but with real (in her universe) people, depicting them in situations against their will... and it’s written cleverly enough to let us forget it.

By siding with her actions we became all like the witch hunters, people who found okay to play with real people for their own entertaintment... and we don’t even realize.

Narrattively speaking to write such a sidestory in Umineko with Ange as the main character, after having her suffer so much for people doing exactly the same is rather clever. An amazing idea really.

In regard to Battler being an uke, as I’ve said, I think the story depicts Battler as an absolute uke in the same spirit as people loved the Battler culprit theory. Ange is just reporting the popular opinion, which she finds amusing.

There’s really plenty of yaoi with Battler being an Uke, going so far as having even Beatrice growing up a member to screw it (and those doujinshi were written PRIOR to people knowing Sayo was Beatrice or how she has XY chromosomes). Actually I think there are more yaoi doujinshi or porn doujinshi with Beatrice screwing Battler than the standard Ero doujinshi or normal doujinshi with Battler having a love story with Beatrice.

So... I don’t think ‘Angel of 17 years’ exists to support the idea that Battler canonly is an absolute uke, same as ‘Forgery n. XXX’ doesn’t exist to support the idea that Battler is canonly the culprit.

Skipping this do I think Battler could be an uke?

Personally I’m not that fond of the seme/uke stereotypes in male/male pairings so I’m not the right person to ask about this as I prefer male/male pairings that don’t use them. I don’t mind a male character having a favourite position, be it top or bottom, what I’m not fond of is the seme/uke stereotype, where the uke is the passive, weeping, weak character that’s often forced into having sex and the seme is the dominating cold active character who forces the uke to have sex with him.

I prefer male/male couples which, regardless of the favourite sexual position, can stand on an equal ground and where one partner isn’t forced by the other into having sex.

That’s just me though. Everyone is entitled to prefer the narrative they like, after all, to us, it’s just fiction and there’s not a real Battler out there we’re making fun of.

Sorry, if this came as a disappointing answer but that’s just how I see the whole matter. Maybe I'm just too romance loving for this sort of things... -_-;;;

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

(Adding to that question about social services and Maria, as a rule of thumb most social services will try to keep children with their parents or close raelatives whenever possible, which involves trying to work in cooperation with the guardians to have them improve their behavior and responsability and only taking a child away from them immediately in case of immediate life risk or very explicit abuse. It's likely that the worker who went to Rosa's house was only trying to have a friendly (cont

Yes...

those are also very good points on how many social services work.

Sadly doing the best for children in need of protection isn’t so easy... and often many mistakes are done even when people act in good faith.

Honestly I can’t remember any reference to Rosa bribing social services in canon, but it might just be my memory failing me. All I could find was the note in the manga I posted in the previous reply...

...but if someone remembers the bribing and can point the canon reference to me I’ll be happy to share it with everyone!

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Hello, sorry if i bother you. i´ve seen the question about Battler vs Superman, and i think that Battler, like Endless Witch have a very good opportunity to win against Superman, because Superman is very vulnerable against the magic (almost so much than the kryptonite). But depends about what types of abilities have Battler like Witch. Because his time like "Endless Witch" was very short, i´m not sure if he have the necessary powers for attack and protect himself at the same time against direct

As I’ve said I’m okay with letting people with more knowledge than me answer that question so don’t worry, you don’t bother me! I hope it’s okay if I share your reply!

To whoever else who has no idea of why this is being discussed @perlitha-bonita’s reply is in reference to this ask.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Why the social service don´t take Maria away of Rosa? They have much evidence and many witnesses that Rosa leave Maria alone in home above many days. And Rosa attacked Maria in front of the social worker, So, Why she don´t take Maria away and file charges against Rosa for aggression, endangering a minor and child abuse?

Your question seems a good one...

...but as it seems Ryukishi worked for the civil services (and therefore is more knowledgeable in this department than I could hope to be) the answer is likely it’s not as simple as it can seem.

For now we know that there had been a suggestion to put Maria into a shelter but, so far, nothing had been done. Maybe the witnesses don’t want to testify in court.

The woman who drops a visit to Rosa is a ‘district welfare officer’ (which is the same woman who, in the novel drops a visit to Maria when she’s carried at the police department to spend the night there as her mother is in Sapporo) and, it seems, in Japan they aren’t the same as ‘children consueling officers’. In short it can very well be she has nowhere near the authority to take Maria from Rosa... especially considering she hadn’t done it when Maria had been left alone and carried to the police to sleep there.

Also in the manga Rosa pushed out the woman before ‘assaulting’ Maria, although the assault to Maria is only verbal and it seems this wouldn’t constitute ‘assault’ in Japan, even if it’s acknowledged Rosa is being cruel with her.

In the novel the thing is more developed.

We have one instance in which Rosa is hitting Maria:

After fiercely closing in on Maria, Rosa mercilessly slapped her on her small shoulders, ...and dropped her gaze towards the stuffed animal Maria was holding, Sakutaro.

Rosa then grows further enraged and we have this scene:

With every single word, she (Rosa) stamped her heel and banged furiously on the wall. ...Of course, she didn't make direct contact with Maria. However, the violence of the harsh sound certainly beat against Maria.

But here there’s no beating of Maria. There’s another scene but again it’s similar to the previous as in Rosa isn’t hitting Maria anymore.

...So she (Rosa) howled. She raged. The district welfare officer tried to cut between Rosa and Maria again, but she only met with Rosa's wrath again. Rosa once again threw the woman off with a face like a demon, and when even that failed to curb her anger, she stomped on the ground over and over again so forcefully that it seemed she might break through the floor.

Now, you might point out how, despite all this, Rosa had hit Maria in the beginning. I take from your words that in your country it would be easy to take Maria away... however let’s remember we are in Japan, 1986.

It seems (but I’m not expert so I might be wrong as I’m only reporting info I read) that in Japan corporal punishment in the home is customarily recognized, and childhood abuse started to be considered as a social problem only from the 1990s, therefore in present time people are still cautious in were a beating can be defined ‘educational meaningful corporal punishment’, or just parents being abusive.

Although the woman got scared would she report Rosa? Does she have any mean to prove that wasn’t an ‘educational meaningful corporal punishment’ but abuse? When it’s not even easy to prove it in present time?

Also it’s entirely possible since Rosa is from a rich family she’s afraid to challenge her and go in court and so are all the witnesses that have seen Maria alone.

I also recommend to read Higurashi Minagoroshi-hen to have an idea of how the ‘children consueling officer’ work in Japan.

Long story short no, it wasn’t so easy to rip Maria away from Rosa in the time and country in which Maria lived. We see it clearly in how even Maria’s relatives don’t think too much of how Maria is mistreated, defending it as if it merely were ‘educational meaningful corporal punishment’.

Before someone will ask me, no I don’t think it was ‘educational meaningful corporal punishment’ I think Maria was abused but I don’t make the rules and so my opinion amounts to nothing.

Maria lived in her own country and her own country didn’t judge necessary to immediately protect her. As sad as it is, it’s just that. Umineko (and Higurashi) did their best to denounce how wrong this idea is but they couldn’t change the rules and so Maria suffered abuse. And we can only hope this mindsetting will change (or had already) and no more children will go through that.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Battler vs Superman who wins?

I’ll let the answer to people who’re into both the Umineko and Superman fandom. I’m not in the Superman fandom so I’m not qualified to reply.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

What do you think the rules are about incomplete Reds? Do you think that what is said in red before being cut off still counts? I'm most specifically thinking about Beato's Red in Ep 4 about Sakutaro. She says in Red that it was made by Rosa for Maria, and it got cut off after that. Does that mean that everything she was saying up to that point was fact, or does the fact that it gets cut off make it all untrue?

It’s an interesting question and well,

truth is we don’t know.

I tend to assume that any complete sentence that’s said prior to the red being interrupted is true and whatever sentence that trails off is untrue.

However there’s something else we also don’t know unless we are Japanese speakers and that’s what Beatrice exactly said.

Translations don’t quite agree on the sentence.

Here there’s the VN version:

That is a special stuffed animal! Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only-

Here there’s the manga scanlated version:

I don’t have the official English manga release so I can’t compare with it as well, sorry about it.

Now, why the different translations?

We’ve to keep in mind that when both translations came out we didn’t know the truth about Sakutarou, how Rosa store bought him:

and therefore there are dozens of ‘Sakutaro’ in the world...

(if you can’t spot them enjoy a closeup)

...so translators had to guess what exactly that sentence implied so that they could give a translation as close as possible to the original meaning in English.

What Ryukishi wanted us to work with was however the ORIGINAL JAPANESE SENTENCE.

or, if you prefer:

そのぬいぐるみは特別なぬいぐるみ！楼座が娘の誕生日のために作った世界でたった一つの-

Sono nuigurumi wa tokubetsuna nuigurumi! Rosa ga musume no tanjōbi no tame ni tsukutta sekai de tatta hitotsu no-

Now I fail at Japanese but I’ve been told by who knows it more than me that in this circumstance ‘tsukutta’ (作った“made”) can very well mean ‘handmade’ and therefore fit with the translation:

“(Hand)Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday...”

but it can also imply that Rosa only ‘made a present’ something we would better translate as:

“Given by Rosa at her daughter for her birthday...”

In Japanese the sentence can take both meanings and therefore remains true regardless of Rosa handmaking Sakutaro or just handing him as a present. What can’t remain true is what Beato tries to say after, that Sakutarou is unique in the world, as there are more than one. Hence she can’t continue saying that sentence.

At this point Beato understands that, if Sakutaro isn’t unique in the world, Rosa didn’t handmake it and therefore it was storebrought.

It’s a wordtrick similar to how Battler could say all that red but got interrupted when he got more specific.

I guess this means as long as a sentence can be true according to a certain interpretation it can be said in red even if the specific meaning isn’t the one the one saying it is thinking (when Battler says ‘Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu’ he was thinking at himself, not at his stepbrother he didn’t know he had... yet he could use red because technically an Ushiromiya Battler was born from Asumu... even though it wasn’t him) but when the language becomes more binding the red couldn’t be said anymore.

Still, the red usage and when it’s really not possible to say something in red or when one should be interrupted is really unclear and there are no written rules so this is just my current interpretation of it.

Take it with a grain of salt as I might be completely wrong.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

You know, I was here thinking about all of the problems that each interpretation of EP3's events bring (If Eva solved the epitaph and Sayo knew, why kill George and Nanjo? If Eva solved it and Sayo didn't know, why didn't she check the chapel when Eva started killing people? If Eva didn't solve it and was actually following Sayo's orders, what was the whole point of showing Eva's emotional struggle in the fantasy?), and I think I found a solution through yet another alternative for how (cont)

Well...

considering we’ve no official solution your solution is possible... but I’m still in the camp of Eva never solving the epitaph but being shown the gold (sort of like it was done in “Our confession” with Natsuhi and Krauss) and promised headship and gold if she were to carry on Sayo’s plan.

First of all because we need for the culprit/mastermind to be Sayo... and in your theory the role switch to Eva halfway. Then in Ep 7 manga version we’re told that Eva and Hideyoshi were BRIBED not that they managed to get in charge of the whole thing.

Also if we are to accept that Sayo would comply to the wishes of whoever managed to solve the epitaph, including accepting whatever punishment they might give her she can’t act in retaliation. That’s not really complying to Eva’s wishes or accepting a punishment, that’s rebelling to Eva’s wishes and administring punishment in retaliation.

I’ll also say that if she really were to decide to rebel she’ll act like she did in Prime but this might be just me.

The point of Eva's emotional struggle in the fantasymight be to prove that, although Eva had agreed, she’s having second thoughts.

Although she was bribed by Sayo, Rosa’s murder seems an unexpected incident (Eva pushed her but she couldn’t be sure this would prove to be fatal) and Maria’s strangulation something unplanned and done in the heat of the moment, not something Eva did in cold blood.

Sayo didn’t want Maria to be strangled, her body wasn’t meant to be disgraced.

Eva and Hideyoshi had been bribed in Ep 1 as well, but back there they didn’t have to kill anyone. It’s possible they weren’t meant to kill anyone here as well but things soon slipped out of control.

However, as I said, your theory can work as well as we really have little to work with in terms of official answers which is a pity. It would be nice if in the future we could discover the truth.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Hello, I'm the steam user who posted the "Erikatrice theory" on the Umineko answer arcs steam discussion. Since an user named 'Battler Ushiromiya' brought me attention to the recent question of Erika=Yasu I think he wants you to analyse the fan theory and deny it. I thought he does not give good constructive points (maybe because English isn't my mother tongue) so I cannot answer his demands. Please look in the spoiler discussion of the the Umineko answer arc on the steam website. Thank you.

Hello! It’s always awesome to see there are fans out there who want to theorize about Umineko!

Sorry if I’m not familiar with your theory, but I don’t follow steam... is it the same people talked me about regarding Erika as being the bearer of lovelessness of Sayo?

Still I think if this user wants something from me he/she should come asking it personally.

On a personal note though, I ask EVERYONE not to come here asking me to join comunities to fight/support theories.

I’m not really an authority in Umineko nor I’m interested in converting people to my viewpoint. I just used to like to share it as well as the info I know on this blog... then a serious lack of time forced me to neglect this place so that I’m seriously behind in replying to asks and I don’t even have the time to make my

‘Umineko ramblings’

as I used to do in the past.

I apologize for how I’m neglecting this place as well as for how I’m often forced to give short answers instead of the detailed ones I used to give but that’s the most I can do as of now.

Still I’m sorry you two are having problems to understand each other, I sadly know personally how hard it is to comunicate in English when English isn’t your mother tongue.

I hope you two will manage to find an understanding in the future!

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

I would like an analysis of Ange and Maria's relationship because I like the irony of a girl who used imaginary friends to cope with real life would becomes one herself (to someone whom she hated no less).

I would like to analyze many things...

but as I’ve said many, many times, out of late I’m short of time and complete analysis are very time consuming. Please, guys, while it’s flattering to know you’re interested in my works, try to be moderate with requests.

On a sidenote... I know at a certain point Maria said she hated Ange...

but I’m not sure that feeling lingered and trived in her. It seems what remained afterward was just a deep sadness and fear of having her world rejected again, not true hate.

Her stating she hated Ange felt more like a form of self defence to ‘deny’ Ange and therefore her words.

Maria loved Ange and Ange hurt her deeply. Yet we see that her parting words to Ange aren’t ones of hate.

I like to think in the end love prevailed but it might be just me.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

But can give a shout-out to Ryu for that art improvement though? 👀👀

LOL, undoubtedly,

his art had improved a lot from when he started... but I’ve to admit even in his early times, although the anatomy was a little up to debate, his art was amazingly expressive.

Sure, it might take a while to get used to it but, once you did, it allowed you an amazing experience through his works... though I doubt he can hear my words of praises... ^_-

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Would battlers relationship with beato count as something... disturbing? As Beatrice was based on the child of kinzo... ushiromiya

Sorry, but I placed these two asks together as they’re somewhat similar.

First of all no, Beatrice wasn’t based on Kinzo’s child.

She was based on the legend of the Akujikijima, and how Kinzo claimed he received the gold by a witch named Beatrice (who was no one else but Beatrice Castiglioni), whom he also claimed was the witch of Rokkenjima and his alchemy advisor.

More in specific the Beatrice Battler is interacting is the soul of that Beatrice after she died, her soul was forced into an homuncolous which also died leaving her soul free again.

The Golden Witch Beatrice is fundamentally a fictional creature, a fantasy, an alias. She doesn’t exist in the real world.

But I get you two are actually thinking at Beatrice = Yasuda Sayo, who was the daughter of Kuwadorian Beatrice (aunt of Battler and daughter of Kinzo) and Ushiromiya Kinzo (grandfather of Battler).

So let’s clear up some things.

In Umineko we see the Battler and Beatrice interacting when they’re in the Purgatory. Not only they’re reduced to souls, but the bodies they have are... I don’t even know how to define them, they’re just a shape that contains their soul, a shape that can go destroyed and rebuilt at will and that can take any form it pleases them, even a storm of butterflies.

In this setting is genuinely possible what we call Beatrice’s body, which isn’t definitely the same as Sayo’s (as it could develop on its own secondary female sexual traits and, very likely, was created with primary female sexual traits, things Sayo’s body didn’t have), doesn’t even share a single drop of blood, a single gene with Ushiromiya Kinzo.

I’ve said I’ve lost count of many times that in the meta world, rules that matter in the real world doesn’t work.

Lambda and Bern can litterally tear each other apart and then sew themselves back together and it’s cosindered perfectly okay. Here it would be murder.

We don’t have an useful handbook on how the meta work... but I get the feeling it would be capable to easily erase the incest business with ease.

Of course Ryukishi didn’t really bother to develop this issue so if you want to insist that, it doesn’t matter if the body isn’t genetically related anymore, since the soul in life was, it’s still incest, it’s up to you.

Now, what will be good to wonder is:

would Battler/SAYO be incest in the REAL WORLD?

Rules according to what constitute an unacceptable degrees of consanguinity vary from country to country and from time period to time period. Some countries are stricter, some are laxer.

I’ve no idea in which country you are and therefore what your country decided was an unacceptable degrees of consanguinity and honestly, I’m not going to force a country’s standard on all the world, not even my country’sso, sorry, but the only thing I’m going to consider in this is Sayo’s country and time.

Umineko helps us in this which is why I tend to remark the importance of reading the manga.

What’s a 3rd degree blood relative?

A first-degree relative is defined as a close blood relative which includes the individual's parents, full siblings, or children.

A second-degree relative is defined as a blood relative which includes the individual's grandparents, grandchildren, aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces or half-siblings.

A third-degree relative is defined as a blood relative which includes the individual’s first-cousins, great-grandparents or great grandchildren.

Long story short Sayo is at the same time Battler’s second-degree relative (since she’s Kinzo’s child she’s his aunt) and a third-degree relative (since she’s the daughter of Kinzo’s child she’s also his cousin).

In both cases she’s not allowed to MARRY him or to have sex with him as you commit incest when you do one of the above. Just loving him platonically doesn’t constitute incest so, as long as they stop at loving each other and never try to get further, no, they aren’t committing incest.

Maybe they would be committing incest if they were in your country, I don’t know, but that’s up for you to know. You’re responsible for knowing your country’s laws and respecting them. Battler and Sayo are responsible for knowing their country’s law and respecting those.

Is this ‘disturbing’?

What is disturbing can vary from person to person and no one should force it on others but just respect how others feelings in this regard.

If for you it’s disturbing then for you it’s disturbing. You don’t need me to agree or disagree for your feelings in this topic to be valid. They are your own so I can’t really help you here.

You’ll just have to think about the whole thing and decide for yourself. It’s your right. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

[ramblingsofthegoldenwitch]

Did you heard of fan theory Erikatrice? An alternate solution to the logic error was recently found which used Kanon=Erika as a single human for the logic and 'Erika' is actually the bearer of lovelessness of Sayo.

No,

I honestly didn’t know about it and I think it’s amazing how fans can come up with so many different theories!

Though if one were to read the tips we would know that Erika was actually a real human...

...and one Sayo likely didn’t know at all.

So it’s pretty unlikely she could use Erika to represent herself even if they share some similar points.

Also there’s a red that states that Erika & Kanon & Battler are 3 (different) people.

So, unless I’m missing something of that fan theory there’s no way Erika and Kanon can be the same person and therefore it can be viewed as an alternate working theory we can put next to the official one.