proshipwanderer

[proshipwanderer]

“ships should at least make sense.” no. ships can make sense, sure. but they’re just fictional characters we play with for fun. they’re fantasies, not a fucking thesis paper. so no, they don’t always have to make sense. they just have to make you happy (or horny).

let people enjoy (fictional) things however they want to enjoy.

[proshipwanderer]

anything can be a shota if you try hard enough

[proshipwanderer]

thoughts about Freminet x Lynette

i think they are very cute!! both the quiet siblings, i think they take time to enjoy each other's presence in silence. they take care of each other in small ways that only they understand

[proshipwanderer]

i think i discovered im a fully proship because of you. thank you so much for existing

hey that's pretty cool!! i'm glad my "i don't give a fuck" attitude rubs off on other ppl, it's a really good mindset to have for fiction. thank YOU for existing!!

[proshipwanderer]

How about this: no *explicit* material involving minors under 15 on AO3. That seems reasonable. If you admit that teens get around age restrictions AND that abusers can groom with them, then something has to change. That involves placing a fair chunk of stories under more stringent lockdown. Yeah AO3 can't go, and you fandom vets are always harping on about how censorship sank previous spaces, but goddamn is there no way to protect the the more vulnerable fans without raising your hackles?

1. How do you define explicit? Does this mean no depictions of child abuse, even for the purpose of telling a story about how wrong it is and showing a victim’s recovery? Can younger teens have realistic sexual encounters in stories so long as nothing is shown on page, or is it wrong to imply explicit goings-on even if they’re not depicted? Where, exactly, do we draw the line between heavy petting and sex? Can a character have a wet dream or masturbate? Can a character think about sex in detail, even if they’re not depicted having it? I’m not trying to be difficult: I’m just trying to make it clear that what you’re proposing, even when you phrase it simply, is inherently difficult to implement. Stories would have to be vetted and actively moderated, a massive undertaking that AO3 isn’t equipped to manage, and any such process would still ultimately hinge on individual judgement, which means you’d still have people dissatisfied with the outcome.  

2. Teenagers who choose to ignore age-ratings and warnings for the material they consume are responsible for their own experience beyond that point: it is not the job of authors or the website to say, “Okay, we know this content is explicitly meant for adults, but let’s make it less adulty just in case a teenager gets in here.” You can’t protect people from their own bad judgement and its consequences without making their lack of responsibility someone else’s responsibility, which is decidedly unfair. 

3. Abusers groom victims with a wide range of material and arguments, and have done so long before the existence of AO3. Whenever this happens, we blame the abuser, not whatever story they used to justify themselves. This is also why, when murderers or other criminals take their inspiration from crime fiction novels or psychologically darker works, as has happened on multiple occasions, we blame the criminals, not their taste in fiction. Locking down on what can be written about child abuse won’t get rid of paedophiles, but it will make things more difficult for victims who use fanfic as catharsis.

Here’s the thing: tagging works on AO3 is how we protect vulnerable fans, by giving them tools to navigate away from distressing themes or content. Taking something away from one person so its mere existence doesn’t upset someone who was never going to read it anyway isn’t a protective act, but a judgemental and dismissive one. To use an analogy, there are plenty of people in the world with deathly nut allergies, but that doesn’t mean we ban an entire food group: it means we label things that have nuts in them, even trace amounts, so that nobody gets hurt. Do accidents still happen? Yes! Are some people assholes about food allergies and dietary restrictions? Yes! But does that mean the solution is to ban nuts entirely? No! And it’s the same with fanfic.    

[proshipwanderer]

Isa frereamour's non-definitive gay incest book list

Here it is: a mix of stuff I've read and intend to read. Quality varies greatly. I'm omitting all examples of erotica because that doesn't interest me, even though many of these novels have sexual content. "But why isn't Game of Thrones, Flowers in the Attic etc here?" because I hate you and straight incest means nothing to me. The family relationship takes precedent over consanguinity. Random order.

BrotherBrother

The Carnivorous Lamb, Agustín Gomez Arcos - A classic, really romantic exploration of the relationship between the two brothers against the backdrop of Francoist Spain. You've read this, and probably reread it.

My Loose Thread, Dennis Cooper - Really intense and disquieting, typical of the author, although the relationship between the brothers is more central here than in other works where it's more peripheral. Recommend all oeuvre.

Not Forever, But For Now, Chuck Palahniuk- Some really interesting meditations on youth and growing out of being 'prey', but lost me in the end. We/us pronouns type brothers.

Querelle, Jean Genet - Thief, murderer, prostitute, brotherfucker. We all know and love Querelle. Movie good as well.

Gemini, Michel Tournier - Twincest, more we/us brothers. I have to be honest I stopped reading this because I started playing a video game, and by page 63 there still wasn't much in terms of incest. I want to finish it though. Jean Genet liked it.

The Power of the Dog, Thomas Savage - I asked my wife for recommendations and she mentioned the movie, which is based on this book. When I asked 'but wasn't it about the kid', she said 'no, it's about the brother, trust me'. I have watched neither movie nor read the book but I believe my baby.

Twins, Bari Wood - The book behind Dead Ringers. Twincest again. You also know this.

A God Against the Gods, Allen Drury - Details the power struggles of pharaoh Akhenaten to establish a monotheist religion in Egypt, the cult of the Solar Disc Aten, and his relationship with brother, lover and heir Smenkhara. Has a sequel.

The Winter Prince, Elizabeth Wein - This book keeps being recommended, one day I'll read it. The interest here are brothers Medraut and Lleu but there are other incestuous relationships (possibly mother-son? I don't care)

Brothers Bishop, by Bart Yates - To be honest this book is not very good but it does have an explicit relationship between the two brothers. Thanks Anon for the rec.

The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. Le Guin - Another fav!! All the incest happens before the book starts, but it's a big part of the background of one of the characters. The characters in question are actually not men, but the book uses he/him pronouns for them and refers to them as brothers. Thanks for the rec Anon, I've been meaning to read this for ages, completely unrelated to incest content

On the Black Hill, Bruce Chatwin - About two twins who run a farm together for 80 years. This book doesn't have anything explicit about their relationship but it's a similar dynamic to The Power of the Dog so I thought it might fit. Thanks for the rec Anon!

Salvation Army by Abdellah Taïa - Moroccan coming-of-age autobiography where the author remembers being in love with his older brother. Thanks for the rec Anon!

Thorngale, Phoenix Mendoza - In their neglected, decaying family estate on the cliffs of the northern Cornish coast, two Anglo-Catholic brothers grow up in parasitic isolation during a time marked by the decay of English nobility. Thanks for the rec cardinalgoffredotedesco!

The Twelfth Transforming, Pauline Gedge - More Smenkhkare/Akhenaten. Thanks for the rec Anon!

Akhenaten, Dorothy Porter - More Smenkhkare/Akhenaten this time in a verse novel. Thanks for the rec Anon!

Doctrine of Labyrinths series, Sarah Monette - Follows two brothers across four fantasy novels, one of them is in love with the other. A father is also involved even though not prominently. Thanks for the rec Rochu!

chinese webnovels:

Brother, 人体骨架 - Really lovely exploration of a relationship between an older brother who is the caretaker for his disabled younger brother (the nature of his condition is kept vague, a severe form of autism, perhaps)

Flying Gulls Never Land, 回南雀 - Younger brother goes to prison for murder and now that he's out there's only one thing on his mind. Really fun read.

Wu Chang Jie, 水千丞 - One of my favourite xianxia novels due to how balls to the wall crazy the protagonist younger brother is. Plot is somehow secondary to him making his older brother fall in love with him again after a lifetime of uhm let's call it torture to keep things classy. Best translation by Corgi unfortunately not available.

Can't be left behind, 尤萨阿里塔 - This isn't usually my style, and the writing isn't that great, but, when I started reading this I couldn't put it down, which must mean something. Younger brother runs away to live with older brother after parents divorce. Other incest novel by same author being translated in the same website, don't care for it, but check it out.

DadSon

Nocturnes for the King of Naples, Edmund White - Epistolary style novel in which the narrator addresses an older lover who, it becomes apparent, is an idealized version of his father, with none of his predatory nature, but all the wealth.

Nuestra Parte de Noche, Mariana Enríquez - There sure is a lot of child sexual abuse happening around this father and son, sure wonder what that could all mean, considering their own turbulent relationship. Guess we'll never know.

Pages from Cold Point and other Stories, Paul Bowles - Only the title short story is incestuous as far as I know, and it was pretty bad. Father deals with homophobic population complaining about his son sleeping with all the men by sleeping with him himself.

The Familia Grande, Camille Kouchner - Speaking of bad. Account of how the author's brother was raped by their stepfather and how this affected her. However, really fun example of women in male dominated fields if we consider it from the "how can I make this about me" angle. The brother didn't even want her to publish the book!

Fire from Heaven, Mary Renault - First book in the Persian Boy trilogy, detailing Alexander the Great's life from childhood to young adulthood. Much has been written about his relationship with mother Olympias but uhm, that takes second stage to what he and his father were doing to each other. Father anxious to ensure his son will be sexually dominant when having sex with other men, while struggling with the conflicting desire to dominate him sexually. Tale as old as time.

The Spanish Gardener, A. J. Cronin - Intensely jealous and controlling father suspects son's and gardener's relationship isn't just friendly.

Lost Souls, Poppy Z. Brite - All kinds of fun things can happen when your dad is a vampire. I actually really like two other characters in this, fun book all around.

The Chosen, Ricardo Pinto - Fantasy trilogy that keeps showing up when I look for both gay and incest. I haven't started reading it yet, but the dad is introduced with 'his father's beautiful face' so I'm making an educated guess about the nature of the incest in this book, but not ruling out that the protagonist might end up with a cousin, in which case we all kill ourselves or something.

Warchild, Karin Lowachee - Scifi trilogy that deals with children/teens at once recruited to be prostitutes or child soldiers, and the similarities between the two. Each book has a different protagonist, but they're all connected. Recommend the three books, love this series.

Dream Boy, Jim Grimsley - Teen boy victim of father's abuse, finds comfort in relationship with classmate, but homophobia threatens his happiness.

Try, Dennis Cooper - Heavily features adoptive father(s)/son sexual abuse. Thank you, Neil for the rec.

Arturo's Island, Elsa Morante - The main character is a young boy who's painfully in love with his father and is extremely angry when his dad brings home a new bride. Thanks Anon for the rec.

Henry Henry, Allen Bratton - Reimagining of Shakespeare's Henriad, transposing the legend of Henry V's wayward youth into 21st-century Britain. Thanks for the rec, problematicvacationbrothers!

Edward, Edward, Lolah Burford - It is a haunting tale of a strange romance between a worldly and dissolute man, James Noel Holland, Earl of Tyne, and the golden-haired young Edward, his ward-or perhaps his son. Thanks for the rec, titleleaf!

The Dark, John McGahern - set in Ireland's rural north-west, and it focuses on an adolescent and his emerging sexuality, as seen through the lens of the strained and complex relationship he has with his father, Mahoney. Thanks for the rec Anon!

chinese webnovels:

Blossom by River Country, 孔恰 - Translation work ongoing, which is why I haven't read this, but makes me really wish I could read chinese because I have a feeling the prose in its original form would be great. Slave boy adopted by intransigent general who learns to love him.

Stars of Chaos (Sha Po Lang), priest - Orphan boy adopted by cold and distant general who spends a lot of time away, despite this the two grow closer over the years. There's also a war or something, and big machines.

Imperial Uncle, 大风刮过 - (uncle x nephew) I haven't read this, but I kept getting recommended, since it's the only uncle x nephew example I'm sticking it here, until a beautiful time comes when I have enough recs for an uncle x nephew section by itself.

SisterSister

Sharp Objects, Gillian Flynn - You've probably also read this. Also a good example of momdaughter but as I have nothing else for that category I'm leaving it here.

We Have Always Lived in the Castle, Shirley Jackson - Another classic. There are people who know this is a book about incest, and there are people who are dumb as rocks.

Into the Forest, Jean Hegland - Two sisters together at the end of the world. Very slow at times, but I liked the claustrophobia. Didn't like the random guy who showed up to mess up the vibe.

The Blindness of the Heart, Julia Franck - This is a war novel across several generations, I'm putting it here from a specific rec, but my interest in reading it is very slim.

Bright Lines, Tanwi Nandini Islam - Another book from a rec, three girls across two continents who discover family secrets. Really scared that this is just cousincest but being very hopeful and crossing my fingers and leaving it here.

The Thirteenth Tale, Diane Setterfield - Gothic suspense novel. Several examples of incest, but the focus here is pair of twin girls + their sister whose identity is a mystery for much of the novel.

The Sinner, Petra Hammesfahr - Another rec by mia belissima moglie, she's going off what happened in the tv show, but I'm trusting that the show follows the book. A woman who would do everything for her sister.

Sisters, Daisy Johnson - This cover and synopsis are very suggestive, and yet I wonder. However goodreads shelves indicate I shouldn't. And yet I can't trust like that. Hopefully one of you can let me know for sure.

Cassandra at the Wedding, Dorothy Baker - One of my favs on this list! Cass is one of the best to every do it. She's gay, she's a twin, and she's pretty unashamedly in love with her sister. The book is about her sister's wedding which Cass, of course, tries to sabotage. Thanks for the rec Anon, I'm so hype for this one!

The Behaviour of Moths, Poppy Adams - From her lookout on the first floor, Ginny watches and waits for her younger sister to return to the crumbling mansion that was once their idyllic childhood home. Thanks for the rec Anon!

Honorable Mentions

Everything that is somehow adjacent, or in which gay incest isn't central but still shows up.

Nefando, Mónica Ojeda - Crazy good book that deals with themes of child sexual abuse and exploitation. Includes three siblings who have been abused by their father, the two girls and one boy are lovers as adults

Boys Alive, Pier Paolo Pasolini - Deals with the lives of destitute street boys in Rome, left to fend for themselves, many are neglected or abused by parents, all involved in petty theft and prostitution to some degree.

The Vampire Armand, Anne Rice - My favourite of the tvc books, and I think it's pretty easy to read Marius' relationship with Armand as well as the other boys as parental.

The Magician, Colm Tóibín - This is a loooong book and the incest is only nominal, which is why it's just an honorable mention. This is a novelization of the life of Thomas Mann, who wrote in his diaries that he was in love with his oldest son for a time. Thanks for the rec Anon

The Piano Teacher, Elfriede Jelinek - This book is absolutely wild in a lot of ways but one of the central themes is the protagonist trying to escape her domineering and possessive mother (who forces them to share a bed!). Thanks Anon for the rec!

Xenogenisis Trilogy, Octavia Butler - I hesitate to recommend this even though it's an amazing series. A lot of the incest is various brother/sister couples, but the two later books have a lot of characters who are a third gender (or not yet male or female) and there's a lot of general discussion of incest. Thanks for the rec Anon, I'll include it.

Out Of A Black Land, Kerry Greenwood - Novel set in ancient Egypt, with gay protagonists and where Smenkhkare/Akhenaten are background characters. Thanks for the rec Anon!

Patrick Melrose series, Edward St Aubyn - The titular character's sexual abuse at the hands of a father is present throughout the novels although not central. Thanks for the rec Anon!

[proshipwanderer]

So I was reading in the Kuroshitsuji character guide when I found this gem. “Cats, who are soft and adorable and don’t exist in the demon world, allow Sebastian to consider life in the human world not that unpleasant. SIDE NOTE: CIEL’S CHEEKS PROVIDE THE SAME EFFECT”.

DUDE.

[proshipwanderer]

need to kneel at Ciel's side like a housepet while he works at his desk and occasionally reaches down to either pet my hair or feed me bits of whatever snack Sebastian brought us 💛

[proshipwanderer]

Let's Rate The Sluttiness of Genshin's Boys

Just a disclaimer: I'll be rating the VIBES of the design, not if I think they're a slut or not (tho I will be sharing my thoughts on that too lmao) so bear with me ok? We'll go from lower to higher!

Kazuha

Boy decided to cover everything up and despite me being of the belief that less revealing outfits CAN be way sexier, this just ain't it. I do, however, believe he LOVES being passed around by the ship's crew lmao no stoner bitch can avoid being a little bit of a slut.

Tighnari

Do I love his design? Yes. Do I think he knots people? Also yes. But there is not an ounce of sexiness in his design. He is so far removed from the concept of sluttiness except, maybe, his bad bitch bob but that's it.

Mika

Is his design slutty? No, but are his huge boots and 00s singer knees giving him HUGE moe points paired with his cute little face? Absolutely Yes. He NEEDS to be pounded into the next charted map.

Chongyun

Listen to me. Had they not been cowards they WOULD'VE removed that shirt underneath his adorable crop. We as a society were ROBBED he had so much potential.

Gaming

We got the TINSIEST bit of cleavage and he IS a cutie, just no sluttiness whatsoever in the design. Big Loss.

Gorou

Ok Ok Listen to me. Listen. Yes he is Exposed but that doesn't make the design slutty. His body is Highly Accessible and you SHOULD take advantage of the dogboy but he does not look like a slut, just a very guillable little dog ready to be abducted (IF you drug him first since he's military trained but still).

Razor

With just a single point more given by the objectively sexy side boob window, there's the other (fake) dogboy. He may not be slutty but on GOD does his design scream "take advantage of me pleeeeaaseee it would be so easyyy".

Sethos

The bare minimum of skin BUT he makes up for it with charisma. He got the attitude of a huge fucking slut and that smirks is proof of it.

Venti

Yes, Yes, of course Venti is the patron saint of Sluts, and his glorified bloomers are to die for just like his goddamn corset, but it's more of an attractive design than a slutty one, you feel?

Kinich

Tight shirt, huge earrings and tats WILL give you slutty points. They're not enough but you gotta give credit when credit is due and Kinich gets some slutty points despite being as a whole a hot design rather than a slutty one.

Aether

Listen, ok, I'm the first one to go feral over Aether's exposed hips and belly button and why the hell do his PANTS have V neck BUT as a WHOLE the design isn't particularly slutty. You cannot give him less than 5 tho cause man... why do your pants dip like THAT?

Xiao

Is Xiao a slut? The correct answer is "not willingly" and those 5 points are all entirely carried by that ridiculous almost see-through excuse of a shirt he's wearing. Like, what even is that, if you told me it was body-paint I'd believe you. Fucking insane.

Cyno

Cyno to me is another instance of "not wearing clothes doesn't make the design slutty per se" cause he... doesn't, really. You take a step back to take it all in and you're like "ok cool design man" but what. are. those. shoulder covers. Is that supposed to be? A top? Of ANY kind? That's preposterous, why even wearing something like that paired with a huge golden chest plate and a choker? It pisses me off cause that single article of "clothing" makes me so horny.

Freminet

See? Contrary to Cyno Fremimi is almost entirely dressed... until they forgot his bottom half and THANK YOU HOYO for that. VERIGINOUSLY short short like what the hell. NOT enough to score him more cause the majority of the design is beautiful but normal, but goddamn you cannot avoid at least a six for those legs, esp paired with a character that is so not a slut. It just gives the noncon a better flavour.

Albedo

"Why is Albedo so high up?" I hear you. However! I think making the conscious decision of giving him light grey STOCKINGS paired with THICH HIG BOOTS WITH A FUCKING DEEP V CUT ON THE BACK? IS? DIABOLICAL?? It's such a deliberate small detail but when you notice it you cannot help but call it slutty. He's also wearing chainmail which is essentially a medieval mesh shirt, soooo...

Dahlia

They gave him a fake catboy aesthetic on top of the super shorts, leg garter AND little smirk. I cannot not call him a Slut. He TOTALLY gets fucked behind the tavern each night. The rightful herald of Barbatos, Archon of Sluts frfr

Xingqiu

Not only are his shorts super short, they're also fucking cut like that? For what? To expose more skin? Show us the panties atp and be done with it why won't you. Also. The. Fucking. Leg. Garter. MY GOD.

Bennett

Yeah mh, sorry hoyo but. Mh. What the fuck is that? Should I call it a shirt or and invite to sexual abuse by strangers and monsters alike? I have no words. What the fuck.

Heizou

Do I even have to comment it? Don't make me look at it, don't make me- *stares so much at it she ends up crashing out due to blood loss and falls to the ground slamming incredibly hard but not as hard as the ones pounding Heizou and his fucking top tier slut side armpit window and ridiculously kinky arm-guards*

Lyney

What can I say except "they dressed him like they would a slutty flirty waifu"?? I can't even call those shorts, they barely cover his ass-cheeks AND he has the leg garters AND bare shoulders AND the little back v neckline(?) AND almost see-through stockings AND he is a fucking huge slut. Amen.

I'm patiently awaiting new boys to eat- I mean rate! Byeeee

[proshipwanderer]

"can someone tell me if this show is offensive?" "do you guys think this ship is problematic-"

i am begging you to go and find the answers for these questions yourself. stop asking other people to do literary analysis for you. think critically. figure out yourself if you like that ship, or if you like that show. stop letting your joy be determined by majority vote.

yes, stay safe, look up trigger warnings, ask friends for help avoiding specific things you know will make you viscerally uncomfortable - but if you've already watched the show, you don't need to be asking people if it's ok for you to like it. make up your own damn mind!

[proshipwanderer]

just lettin everyone know, recently Pony Town (at least on the safe server ^^) has been banning people with the name "Pro-Chan" for "provocative behavior" so far it seems to only be one-day suspensions. But I still wanted to give you all a heads up!!

[proshipwanderer]

I LOVE THIS SHOTA SO MUCH ITS CRAZY

[proshipwanderer]

when i get my grubby little hands on pavlova cookie it's over for everyone

[proshipwanderer]

[proshipwanderer]

i think it’s very important that an incest ship is also a pair of well written siblings. the sex is nothing without a solid platonic backbone of genuine familial attachment and care. if they aren’t brothers first and lovers second I’m not really interested

[proshipwanderer]

I think we have to accept that there is such a thing, especially in horror media, as a load bearing problematic ship. Yes, it's incest/age gap/abusive/manipulative , and its so important to the plot that trying to remove it destroys the whole thing.

[proshipwanderer]

finally back to play genshin 😭 i haven't played in like six months but the 5.6 livestream jump started my interest back up