lady-claudia-phantomhive

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more about my otp

If the theory about Undertaker being involved with Claudia is right (or whatever, cause I see you guys like this theory pretty much) so we can affirm that he was really in love with her.

BUT he never ever EVER said anything about possibility / impossibility of resurrecting her. So far he was only crying about Vincent and looking after his sons…

I just want to say that if he was crazy in love with Claudia he probably could try to resurrect her when she died. And not leave her only son Vincent to grow up without mother and then burn in fire. And not mourn about him for three years (like yeah, this is truth, i dont make rules), not to go through hell to find real!ciel’s soul (or whatever he did to find real!ciel’s soul), and all other stuff he did.

All i want to say is that Undertaker said like 10.000 times that it’s impossible to revive Vincent cause his body has turned into ashes.

And he most probably was trying to kill Sebastian (on titanic) and save both ciels because that was Vincent would like him to do :C

He also said that Sebastian would never understand, and we all well know that the only thing that demons don’t understand is love.

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Everything in Kuroshitsuji happens because of love

Ah, who’d thought, me having a theory like this huh? The world is a strange place.

Wonderful posts like this one by @abybweisse​ , which are perfectly worded and organized unlike mine, just fill my heart and so I have epiphanies in the middle of the fucking subway.

Undertaker and Claudia are the main characters of the whole story. Everything happened and is happening because of them.

Being in love and having forbidden children was the cause for every single thing that rippled through time into every event in Kuroshitsuji, interactions there on out, one thing leading to another and endless of subplots evolving around the original ties to this core structure.

The core structure being Love

And that’s awesome :)

also last time I shared some random comment on Kuroshitsuji I got my first anon hate so here I am waiting for it like that meme cat with the knifes lol

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Ch151: Francis/Frances and Undertaker

This chapter gives us our first peek into the history of Undertaker with Francis (I will use that spelling for this post, since the licensed English translation is at least consistent in spelling it the “male” way), and it’s quite revealing. Whereas Chlaus says Diedrich knew Vincent before Undertaker ever got involved with the Phantomhive family, we now have proof that’s not true.

Francis would prefer to act as if they hardly know each other, but Undertaker is having none of that.

She makes it sound like he simply hasn’t changed in the nearly four years since Vincent died.

In reply, he doesn’t simply say he recalls her from four years ago… or even from her youth when Vincent became watchdog (which happened when Vincent was 15… and she’s canonically younger); he says he recalls her birth, and that the passage of thirty-some-odd years feels like nothing to him.

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Hi chibi, may I ask you a question about Ch151? I saw many theories conclude that Francis and Undertaker knew each other since Claudia's time. I wonder in japanese version if these two already say something canonically about it? I mean Undertaker may has been around Francis earlier, but Francis did she meet Undertaker at Vincent's time or when Claudia was still alive? Since many fans said that Francis knew Undertaker as her father, this made me so confused. Thank you!

Dear anon,

There is no explicit information whatsoever in the original manga, but there is some indication judging from the language Frances uses to the Undertaker.

Frances’ use of language in Japanese

In chapter 151 when Frances addresses the Undertaker, she says the following:

“葬儀屋、お前はお兄様がご存命の頃から変わらないな”

“Undertaker, omae wa oniisama ga gozonmei no koro kara kawaranai na”

“Undertaker, you haven’t changed since the time when my (honourable) brother was alive.”

The most noteworthy elements in her language are indicated in bold, and I shall expand on why these are important underneath. (It will be lengthy, but please bear with me.)

‘Oniisama’ and ‘Gozonmei’

Frances is a noble lady, and in the manga she uses formal language to people she considers her peer or above. Despite her clear dislike for her brother, she never fails to address him properly as ‘oniisama’, or ‘honourable brother’, even when she is yelling at him, or after his death.

“大体お兄様は昔からそうやって…”

“Daitai oniisama wa mukashi kara souyatte…”

“(Honourable) brother, you have always been like this from the past…”

The ��o’ and the ‘sama’ in ‘oniisama’ are honorifics in Japanese death trap, uh I mean polite language, ‘keigo’. Siblings normally don’t go beyond the expected politeness level of ‘oniichan/oneechan or niisan/neesan’.  Frances however, uses both of the highest honorifics ‘o’ and ‘sama’.

I do not think Frances uses this formality for Vincent because she really looks up to him. Rather, I think Frances uses this formal language because she is a respectable lady, and not using formal language when referring to her older brother would be considered ‘unrefined’ and be held against her. In the same way, the ‘go’ in ‘gozonmei’ (ご存命・alive) is also a hyper formality, and a marker of her grace as a lady.

In Japanese, language is an exceptionally telling method with which speakers express their identity. Among other things, a speaker’s formality or informality is considered a strong language marker with which they can present themselves. The infinitely varied language quirks and markers don’t all have a perfect equivalent in English, and therefore translation is very tricky. As such, a one-on-one translation from ‘oniisama’ to ‘honourable brother’ every time is just very unnatural, hence it is omitted in English.

“葬儀屋、お前はお兄様がご存命の頃から変わらないな”

“Undertaker, omae wa oniisama ga gozonmei no koro kara kawaranai na”

“Undertaker, you haven’t changed since the time when my (honourable) brother was alive.”

In contrast to Frances’ hyper formality when speaking about her ‘honourable brother’, she uses informal language when talking about and to the Undertaker.

‘Omae’ (you (rude)), ‘Kawaranai na’ (haven’t changed) is informal speech. (Formal speech would have been ‘貴方’(anata) and ‘変わりませんね’ (Kawarimasen ne・have not changed).)

To me, this is an indication that Frances sees the Undertaker as below her rank. Frances using formal language for Vincent, while informal for Undertaker in the same sentence, is her implicitly differentiating the social hierarchy between Vincent and Undertaker. Consequently, I would say that Frances probably does NOT think that Undertaker is related to Claudia Phantomhive, because if she did believe so, Frances would most probably not have used this type of informal language.

Undertaker’s Language

Undertaker replies to Frances as follows:

“そうかい？小生にとってみれば君も生まれた頃がさっきのようだよ”

“Sou kai? Shousei ni totte mireba kimi mo umareta koro ga sakki no you da yo”

“Is that so? To me as well, it is as though you were born not very long ago.”

This line in Japanese is fairly standard and straighforward, and does not contain a lot linguistic hints. Undertaker merely seems to state that Frances did not change much either in his very, very old eyes. Rather than him dropping hints that he had met Frances at birth, I think it is more likely that he is playing it safe and not give Alexis Midford more reason to suspect the supernatural is involved. For more about R!Ciel hiding the involvement of the supernatural, click here.

There is no explicit information, but it is not impossible that Undertaker already met Frances during Claudia’s time when Frances was VERY young. But there is no information on whether Frances is actively aware of Undertaker’s presence during Claudia’s time. Frances’ and Undertaker’s interaction so far only indicates that there is no deep bond between them.

No indication of ulterior meaning

Japanese manga has a universal way to indicate when a spoken line contains an ulterior meaning.

In Sebas’ text he says: “… Yes, I shall serve the young master well as his butler,” after Tanaka refers to O!Ciel by this title for the first time. The dots next to the word “bocchan/young master” mean to indicate that the word pronounced by Sebas contains an ulterior meaning. Now in retrospect we know “Ciel” is in fact not O!Ciel’s name, and that therefore Sebas is using the title to refer to his master to dodge his real name because he cannot lie.

In Undertaker’s text, he says: “Both ‘body’ and ‘memory’ hosted by the brain remain in this world.” These dots again tells the reader the speaker refers to not just any world, but specifically the human world (as opposed to the Reaper’s world.)

These dots however, do NOT appear in Undertaker’s speech bubble in chapter 151.

Theory within the Japanese fandom

As I mentioned in another post, language shapes thought. As such, different theories may have emerged in the Japanese fandom. In the Japanese fandom, most people do not believe Undertaker is Frances’ and Vincent’s father, or Cedric K Ros.

Some arguments against Undertaker being the father as discussed in the Japanese fandom:

During the Boarding School Arc, Undertaker remained as fixated on O!Ciel as always, whereas he didn’t even bother batting an eye at Edward. Most of the Japanese fandom believe that Undertaker is only interested in the direct line of the Phantomhive family. Undertaker deliberately addressed Frances as ‘Lady Frances Phantomhive’, and this is considered a hint that his interest probably ends with her as a side-branch, and that this interest does not extend to her children. If Undertaker were Frances’ father, then this striking favouritism towards Vincent’s line would require some other explanation which is not in the manga canon (yet). As Yana has confirmed that Vincent and Frances are born of the same parents, this favouritism cannot be explained with “only Vincent is Undertaker’s child.”

Undertaker is a person who does not hide his emotions towards the Phantomhive tragedy very well. If just thinking about Vincent is enough to make him cry, then meeting Frances after such a long time would probably have stirred some emotions. This reunion would not necessarily be enough to make him cry, but the interaction with Frances would probably not have been as cheerful and aloof as in chapter 151.

During the Luxury Liner Arc too, Undertaker did not seem to care about the Midford family at all, despite clearly having had a lot of chance to reach out to them. Judging by Undertaker’s dodging skills as attested in the Boarding School Arc, he could easily have avoided O!Ciel and Sebastian during the first demonstration of the Aurora Society if he wanted to, but instead he chose to engage O!Ciel - ‘a main Phantomhive’. Yet again, we see a clear contrast between Undertaker’s interest in O!Ciel and the lack hereof for the Midfords.

Side-argument. Undertaker CAN’T be Cedric K. Ros: Undertaker is confirmed to have been a reaper for at least 70 years. 1889 - 70 = 1819. Claudia Phantomhive was born in 1830, which means that by the time she was born, Undertaker was already a reaper. In the family tree, Cedric K Ros was officially registered as her legal spouse. Had Claudia been a commoner, than marrying some random person that does not exist in the civilian personnel archive might have been possible. But considering how she was the Countess of Phantomhive, it would have been very troublesome to marry a man who does not officially exist.

Arguments supporting Undertaker being the father in the Japanese fandom come in far lesser quantities, but a few popular ones are as follows:

Frances’ platinum blond-grey-ish hair resembling Undertaker’s silver hair.

Elisabeth and Edward both having green eyes. But as all reapers get green eyes the moment they become one, this theory does not hold water.

The lack of information about Undertaker and Cedric K Ros allowing for intersection between them. So far - whatever little canon information there is about Undertaker and Cedric respectively do not exclude each other.

Undertaker’s obsession with Claudia clearly being the strongest, and leaves enough room for people to ship them romantically, and therefore having produced children. Most fans who do believe Undertaker and Claudia were romantically involved however, tend to believe Undertaker was the lover of Claudia, and not her spouse.

In short, so far in the Japanese fandom, there are more arguments against Undertaker being Vincent and Frances’ father than for.

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Kuroshitsuji 151 cover chapter

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Undertaker is such a joy, best bastard

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I was gonna make fun of him and be like ‘lol silly undertaker that’s not how you hold a book’ but then I remembered that its canon he has vision problems so now im a bad person.

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Undertaker and R!Ciel in chapter 150.

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My ps work. 06.11.2017

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‘Something once lost will never return.’

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The last soul of the reaper.

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My ps work. 09.10.2017

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My ps work. 06.10.2017.

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I just noticed something on 107.5

Undertaker took the time to stand up and pick up Vincent’s portrait to place it in the armchair where he was previously sitting, before trying to grant him his rosette’s power.

The special thing about this is just that Undertaker 

gave his place and power to Vincent, and is literally replaced by Vincent in the next panel

So yeah don’t mind me, I’m just here staring at this chapter’s beauty and marvelously implied hints and symbolisms that we’ll eventually learn to be true or not in about a decade from now.

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Love it! ♡

you know how tobososensei always insisted that undy was the most handsome? do you think it means something or it's going to later? besides i always thought it's strange, because how can he be most handsome if he has scars everywhere?

Hello Anon, so sorry for the delay, I know you sent that last week! Tagging @tacoofladys​ at the same time, since they asked something similar and I promised I would. :)

Actually, I think you have an element of answer in your questions and I very quickly addressed the subject once. In the first place, I’m of the opinion that whenever Yana insists on something in her story (through her own commentary or through comic relief for example), it is supposed to be meaningful in regards to the plot.

Now, when it comes to UT in particular [x]…

…I have to admit that I always wondered if the fact he is “the most beautiful man” was her opinion as his creator, or if it was also an opinion shared by many in the story, as in, if it was directly relevant to the plot or his character. At least we know Grell agrees:

but that might not mean much, seeing Will and Seb from their point of view. xD

If UT is seen as very handsome in canon though, then I agree with you that it is somewhat strange, considering that…

he does have scars everywhere

he has terribly long black nails (because of dirt?)

he has dirty long hair because he doesn’t wash it often

meaning that, without the neglected and damaged physical appearance, he must have been even more handsome (and less creepy) than he currently is, which is why I think Yana insisting about him being “the most beautiful” could be narratively meaningful. 

Regarding beauty in general in Kuroshitsuji though, I really like how it is a recurring theme and generally not a good omen whenever someone is seen as “beautiful” in the story, be it because it leads to bad developments for the character in question, or because it’s hiding how rotten the character is underneath. 

A few examples:

Druitt => seen as extremely handsome but still rotten inside and not just stupid. Also he tried to sell our!Ciel during the JTR arc, when he was crossdressing as this “beautiful maiden”. 

Cole => “most beautiful boy in Weston” but maaan, clearly rotten and manipulative inside as we all know.

Kelvin and his obsession about becoming beautiful, ever since meeting Vincent and the twins. Not only did it trigger an unhealthy interest in the twins, but Kelvin’s insane actions surrounding his decision to become “beautiful” in order to be closer to Ciel (eww) speak by themselves

Vincent himself, or even our!Ciel, both very handsome but we know they’re compared to roses surrounded by thorns and called “Evil Nobles” for a reason. 

So back to the Undertaker, if he’s so beautiful that dirty hair, creepy nails and multiple scars aren’t even supposed to diminish that impression in canon, then I’m wondering about what kind of hints it gives about his past. We know that…

something terrible must have happened to him long ago if he ended choosing suicide as a solution, so if beauty is more of a curse than a blessing in Kuroshitsuji, who knows what UT actually lived through because he is/was “the most beautiful man”. 

For example, look at Kelvin’s reaction upon seeing Vincent and the twins…

Of course, Kelvin was not right in the head from the beginning, but if beauty can inspire such awful thoughts and obsession in some people, again I’m wondering what sort of not-so-funny events UT might have lived through before he chose to end it all. Hopefully Yana-sensei will expand on it one day!

That’s my take on it for the moment, so please keep in mind that I might be completely wrong. :) Sorry again for the delay, but I hope I managed to answer your question!

Have a nice day Anon. :3

[lady-claudia-phantomhive]

That Butler, unifying force by Delila2110