kaladinisntwhite

[kaladinisntwhite]

Kogiopsis:

Kind of along the same lines, I just want to confirm something. If someone from Earth saw an Alethi, what ethnicity would they assume they were?

Brandon Sanderson:

It would– The model I use are actually for the half-Hawaiian, half-Asians that are kind of common in Hawaii. That’s the model I’ve used; I actually have one of their faces for Kaladin. So it would depend on what your perspective is, you might say– some people might say Arab, but the model I’m using is kind of more Hawaiian/Asian mix is what you’d get. The only ones that would look Caucasian to you straight-up would probably be the Shin, though if you get someone who has Horneater blood– The Horneaters might look– they just– they’re gonna look like bizarre… redhead… things, but they might look Caucasian to you.

swamp-spirit:

So would Shallan also be more towards that?

Brandon Sanderson:

Yeah, Shallan has lighter skin. But she still has the epicanthic fold, and so she maybe would look to you like a Caucasian/Asian mix? With red hair? So… Anyway, she would look fairly Caucasian.

swamp-spirit:

I will attempt to send you excited fanart.

Kogiopsis:

I’ve been picturing the Alethi as Indian, myself.

Brandon Sanderson:

Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, like East India? That’s a pretty good picture on them. That would work very well.

source

[kaladinisntwhite]

source: claytonphillips

Several times in Way of Kings, you have characters think of the Shin as having big or round eyes. Do the Shin really have giant eyes, or do all the other peoples of Roshar have an epicanthic fold on their eyes?

It seemed to me that this was very similar to how characters in second world fantasies, like Faile in Wheel of Time, are designated as "Asian" even though there is no Asia in the book. Is this a subversion of that? Are the Shin the only people on Roshar who look Western European?

Brandon Sanderson

You are right, actually. Normal eyes on Roshar are those with an epicanthic fold. The Shin do not have this. Note, however, that they wouldn't look "Western European." Roshar races are fairly far off from what we imagine as Earth ones. The people most likely to look Western European to you would be those from Mistborn.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

[kaladinisntwhite]

mistborn: Yup, that's where it came from! I read a history of Genghis a number of years back, and loved this story, which was included there (though said to be just a legend.) Since I based old-school Dalinar on Subutai, a Mongolian general, I thought that this would be a perfect inclusion.

The origins of the Mongolian-Dalinar link, by the way, can be traced back to a friend of mine, Bat-ultzi, a Mongolian who went about always claiming to be "The Great descendant of the Great Genghis Khan." He'd throw his shoes at people if they offended him. He was such a character that I got very interested in Mongolian practices and history.

EDIT: More tidbits. Rock and his culture started Mongolian long, long ago. (98-99 era, when I first wrote him.) As Roshar in general (and the Alethi in specific) became more Asian in look and less Semitic (though they are still a mash-up) I decided to push Rock's people in the direction of a human/parsh hybrid strain. This also was part of moving Rock himself from Yolen to Roshar, following after Dalinar and some other characters, who came earlier during the original Dragonsteel/Stormlight split in the early 2000s.

These changes drove the Horneaters away from Mongolian influences, though I can't say specifically where the Polynesian/Russian mashup came from. I liked how it read, and felt the linguistics supported the accent. These changes, of course, had a domino effect that resulted in the Veden people gaining their occasional red hair and fair skin from Horneater relation, which means Shallan is part parshman--though the relation is distant at this point.

[source link]

[kaladinisntwhite]

[second photo caption]

deleted user: Here is an example of a Mongolian girl with red hair. [original photo unavailable] Would she make a good example of a Vadan [sic] Dark Eyes, u/mistborn ?

mistborn/Brandon Sanderson: Yes, that's a good example. Though do remember, Vedens aren't all redheads--that's going to depend on region, and even have a lot of variance within regions. (Alethi skin tone will be similar in its variety, depending. Vedens in general tend to be lighter.)

Here's another image I noticed a while back that feels very like what I'd imagined.

[link to first image: https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/55dba2321400002e002e3dd1.jpeg?ops=scalefit_970_noupscale]

[description of first image: Model and actor Natasha Culzac, a mixed-race Afro-Caribbean woman with red hair photographed by Michelle Marshall.]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/photographs-redheads-of-color_n_55db9929e4b0a40aa3abf017

https://www.vice.com/en/article/exq5jp/documenting-black-and-mixed-race-gingers-243

[kaladinisntwhite]

it helps to have been here in the fandom since before these wobs existed! much easier to add them one at a time as they got asked. there's definitely been a slowdown in past years on people asking the cosmere race questions/brandon answering them, since we now have a pretty clear idea of what their appearances are roughly meant to be, but i'm pleased to have a backlog that works as an archive for reference now.

after all this time with this blog, and five years later i'm just seeing @botanicaxu made a really good summary post of most accumulated words of brandon re rosharan races. i'll throw up some of the links i've missed so they're accessible here in bite-sized pieces as well

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55723-human-races-on-roshar-a-brief-guide-ver10/

[kaladinisntwhite]

after all this time with this blog, and five years later i'm just seeing @botanicaxu made a really good summary post of most accumulated words of brandon re rosharan races. i'll throw up some of the links i've missed so they're accessible here in bite-sized pieces as well

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55723-human-races-on-roshar-a-brief-guide-ver10/

[kaladinisntwhite]

This is probably going to be misinterpreted, but seeing artists in the stormlight fandom who don’t even whitewash become anxious about their art because it doesn’t fit in with everyone’s individual mental image is starting to make me anxious as fuck. I agree that not whitewashing is important, obviously, but the whole affair reminds me of 2016 tumblr when I felt like I wasn’t allowed to make white or black ocs because I’m not black and only half white. And that’s not what it’s supposed to be about.

Yes, whitewashing (when it’s actually whitewashing and not just lighting or an artist learning or the colours being off on their computer), makes me angry as well, as it does whenever any character’s race is portrayed incorrectly. Yes, there is a divide between art being stylised and whitewashed, and that line is blurry in some instances, but most of the people making the whitewashing complaints aren’t artists, from what I’ve seen recently, and I’d recommend giving it a go yourself before making what could be an inaccurate judgement.

I’ve been assured my art is accurate, and that’s nice, but I’m not talking about me (who could probably be accused anyway, because I don’t shade art anymore, and I’ve seen plenty of artists accused of whitewashing bc they only do lineart. Or because my style is too angular. Seen that accusation, too) and I draw characters as I do because I have friends of many races, it’s normal for me and not much of a biggie in Australia, compared to some places, and people of all sorts of races are pretty and fun to draw! It’s that simple!

But the more complaints I see, the less I want to share fanart, because the overly specific and not always accurate complaints WILL start making even accurate artists feel like they are liking/drawing said characters as a calculated move to not appear racist, and not because, shockingly, they just fucking like the character. And that my friends is how you make sure artists fear producing content for you for free on social media.

Edit: it has been pointed out to me that some will interpret this as being in support of white supremacists, and people who whitewash, so I’m specifying that it is NOT how my post should be read. At all. I’m fully against whitewashing and inaccurately portraying race. That would be clearer if I was more eloquent. I’m sorry that my post is forcefully presented, but it has been posted in defence of mutuals/followers of mine that do NOT whitewash and have no reason for the concerns they have, and is actually not an attack on anyone I follow. But those concerns are there, so I can’t delete this post, either.

And please do not feel the need to pop a like on this post, even just to acknowledge what I’ve said, because it could be seen as you being in support of that misinterpretation.

[kaladinisntwhite]

[caption text of screenshot from Reddit, between Brandon Sanderson, username mistborn, and Reddit users.]

twiztedterry: “ I intended Rock to have a bronzer tan skin.” Would you say Rock’s skin is closer to a Native American, or would it be lighter, like a Pacific Islander? My internal depiction has always placed him closer to native american skin tone.

mistborn: I envision native American.  Where the Alethi tend to run the range between someone who would look Asian to us (though the Vedens are more that skin tone) all the way through to Indian (actual Indians) skin tones.  They'd look at Rock and say, "That's a tan" or "that's bronze." It's obviously not Alethi, but the words "light" and "dark" don't really work for the descriptions the way I want--in fact, a lot of the ways in literature we've talked about skin tones through history has been...well, pretty racist.  It's sometimes a challenge to navigate this, my own biases, and the problems that come when working with a culture, like the Alethi, who are also pretty racist. 

botanicaxu: Thanks so much for the explanation, Brandon! “Rock actually sputtered, an amusing mixture of indignation and incredulity, bringing a red cast to his light Horneater skin.”Though this sentence from Words of Radiance chapter 46 is what used to make me think Rock has lighter skin and it's from Kaladin's PoV. So it doesn't necessarily mean he actually has skin color close to pale/fair one, but just a bit lighter than Kaladin himself (or normal Alethi)'s tan color?

mistborn: Oh, and for your P.S. Yes, they should.  I imagine them bronzer than him.

[kaladinisntwhite]

I actually think Adolin could be somewhat easier than others. When we make the movies, I’ll probably suggest that we make anyone from Shin, Iri, or Rira (all along the coast there) look Caucasian. The books can handle a lot more of a learning curve, I feel, than the films–and we won’t have things like the Interludes to jump over to Iri to explore their culture. So a race of strange, golden-skinned and haired people who ALSO aren’t native to Roshar (different from the Caucasians in Shinovar) might just be too odd. The Rirans, which Adolin comes from, are already a mixed ethnicity themselves–not even Iriali, so it’s fine to make them Caucasian. So Adolin could be cast white, if they really want to. Basically, I’m expecting it to be a bit of a fight to get them to cast four of the leads (Kaladin/Dalinar/Jasnah/Navani) as Asian actors. Maybe I’ll be wrong, but from what I’ve heard from actors in Hollywood, directors and studios are hesitant about not being able to cast known names in big roes. (Ignoring the fact that’s hard for Asian American actors to become big names if they aren’t ever given big roles…) So, I can imagine allowing them to go with someone Caucasian for Adolin and Shallan, in exchange for pushing the rest of the cast to be how I’d like. In a perfect world, though, I’d want someone like Dave Bautista for Dalinar–and someone like Alex Landi for Adolin. (Note that I’m not a casting director myself, so I have no idea who could act the role the right way–I’m just judging based on what I’ve seen of them in the past.)

Brandon on Adolin’s casting

[kaladinisntwhite]

Ten Heralds with gemstones of their Orders

Jezrien - Windrunners - Sapphire

Nale - Skybreakers - Smokestone

Kalak - Willshapers - Amethyst

Talenel - Stonewards - Topaz

Ishar - Bondsmiths - Heliodor

Chanarach - Dustbringers - Ruby

Vedel - Edgedancers - Diamond

Pailiah - Truthwatchers - Emerald

Shalash - Lightweavers - Garnet

Battar - Elsecallers - Zircon

[kaladinisntwhite]

@nocturnalbrainwaves replied to your photo “Stormlight Archive - Character eye shape reference sheet Other than…”

I might be missing something dumb here but is it canon that Rosharans have epicanthic folds or is it just a widely accepted fan aesthetic? Either way I’m down with it but I can’t remember a specific reference to this in the books and seeing it everywhere is driving me nuts

Yes, it is canon. Brandon himself has said about this several times, though the following comment he once made on Reddit is the most reliable source:

Alethkar natives other than the Shin have the epicanthic fold, but the Alethi wouldn’t look strictly Asian to you–they’d look like a race that you can’t define, as we don’t have them on earth. I use half-Asian/half-arab or half-asian/half-Polynesian models as my guide some of the time, but Alethi are going to have a tanner skin than some of those.

Brandon also made this interesting comment in an interview:

One big reversal is when readers realize that most of the main characters probably don’t look like them. Most readers don’t make that connection for quite a while… I like the idea that as you read you assume that the offbeat Szeth is “the other” and Kaladin looks like you, when in reality Kaladin is an Asian-Middle Eastern mix, while Szeth is caucasian. Of course, if you read it in Taiwan, then the characters really look like you and Szeth is the oddball…

You can check my master post on 17th Shard forum for more Rosharan race references =)

[kaladinisntwhite]

claytonphillips:

Several times in Way of Kings, you have characters think of the Shin as having big or round eyes. Do the Shin really have giant eyes, or do all the other peoples of Roshar have an epicanthic fold on their eyes?

It seemed to me that this was very similar to how characters in second world fantasies, like Faile in Wheel of Time, are designated as "Asian" even though there is no Asia in the book. Is this a subversion of that? Are the Shin the only people on Roshar who look Western European?

Brandon Sanderson:

You are right, actually. Normal eyes on Roshar are those with an epicanthic fold. The Shin do not have this. Note, however, that they wouldn't look "Western European." Roshar races are fairly far off from what we imagine as Earth ones. The people most likely to look Western European to you would be those from Mistborn.

source

[kaladinisntwhite]

The_Immortal_Shogun: Is there some reason why the characters in the cover don't seem to reflect the Hawaiian-esque description you seem to have in your head. For Kaladin for example Brandon Sanderson:

Yeah. Basically, I was too intimidated by being able to work with Michael Whelan to be picky.

It goes a little further than that. The original cover was closer in skin tone and features to what I'd imagined. (Remember, I view the Alethi as kind of Asian Hawaiian hybrids.) However, the pose and overall look of the figure wasn't great.

I chose not to say anything, because I love Mr. Whelan's work, and was simply thrilled to be working with him. Plus, I liked the cover quite a bit, even if something was slightly off with the figure. Well, Mr. Whelan obviously saw what I had, and over the next few months we got a string of revisions from him.

By the time he'd settled on the current one (which was the best of the ones he'd sent) I didn't want to bother him with redesigning Kaladin yet again.

We're still trying to get this right. In working with Dan Dos Santos to do the clothing portraits in the second book, I kept having trouble describing to him what to use. I think he got much closer to the look of the Alethi, but I don't feel we're there yet.

Third cover is shaping up nicely, and we're being careful to nudge Mr. Whelan toward a more Alethi look.

source

[kaladinisntwhite]

Kogiopsis:

Kind of along the same lines, I just want to confirm something. If someone from Earth saw an Alethi, what ethnicity would they assume they were?

Brandon Sanderson:

It would-- The model I use are actually for the half-Hawaiian, half-Asians that are kind of common in Hawaii. That's the model I've used; I actually have one of their faces for Kaladin. So it would depend on what your perspective is, you might say-- some people might say Arab, but the model I'm using is kind of more Hawaiian/Asian mix is what you'd get. The only ones that would look Caucasian to you straight-up would probably be the Shin, though if you get someone who has Horneater blood-- The Horneaters might look-- they just-- they're gonna look like bizarre… redhead… things, but they might look Caucasian to you.

swamp-spirit:

So would Shallan also be more towards that?

Brandon Sanderson:

Yeah, Shallan has lighter skin. But she still has the epicanthic fold, and so she maybe would look to you like a Caucasian/Asian mix? With red hair? So… Anyway, she would look fairly Caucasian.

swamp-spirit:

I will attempt to send you excited fanart.

Kogiopsis:

I've been picturing the Alethi as Indian, myself.

Brandon Sanderson:

Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, like East India? That’s a pretty good picture on them. That would work very well.

source

[kaladinisntwhite]

so since they have Asian features..... drawing all of the Stormlight Archive characters and glamorous anime characters is valid?

Well, you know they have the giant swords and the aesthetic, they’re pretty much anime characters already! 

[kaladinisntwhite]

Zoo-alQarnyn:

The Alethi names sound very Persian. Was that intentional or my imagination?

Brandon Sanderson:

That is intentional.

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[kaladinisntwhite]

Neil Cadsawan:

I thought Kaladin was dark skinned.

Brandon Sanderson: (Part 1 / Part 2 )

Most of the Alethi are darker skinned, and would not look Caucasian to us. But most cover artists (and readers) miss this fact.

It's not something I've been clear enough about to publishers when they commission art. My bad, not theirs.

source