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forthesakeofpride · 5 years ago

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It is Time to Kill The Common Understanding of the Dome of Las Noches Fight Once and for All

I’ve been thinking about @starrdustcrusader‘s post making fun of BBS’s interpretation of Full Hollow Ichigo, and while it is very good and covers a lot, I felt that I had something further to add. Please go read that post first so you are on the same page.

I also invite you to go read chapter 350, The Lust 4, and the next few chapters as well.

Now, like I said, the post in question does a very good job of pointing out what’s happening here: Full Hollow Ichigo has less than zero concern for Uryuu or Orihime. He is not interested in protecting them whatsoever. Indeed, he directly attempts to kill Uryuu, with that attack being very likely to kill Orihime as well. It is only stopped by Ulquiorra’s intervention.

And why did Ichigo attack Uryuu? Because he was a threat.

When you are doing dispassionate threat analysis, whether that be tactical or strategic, when you are thinking with an essentially military mindset, motive stops really mattering, because it cannot be taken for granted. What matters is capability. What someone says their intentions are, or what their intentions seem to be, often matter less from this perspective than what they can do, or are doing.

What is Uryuu doing in this fight? He is interfering with Full Hollow Ichigo killing Ulquiorra. And that is Full Hollow Ichigo’s only goal. Thus, Uryuu is an enemy and is also to be killed.

And so is Orihime (if “merely” as collateral damage).

It’s that simple. This is again pointed out in the original post. In the same way that Ulquiorra earlier said to Ichigo that, “Killing you is synonymous with protecting Las Noches,” killing Uryuu and Orihime at this point is synonymous with “protecting,” because they are in the way and are actively impeding the mission. (”Protecting” what? We’ll come back to that.)

I haven’t said anything new yet, now have I? So let’s get to that.

Here is Orihime demonstrating several flavors of hubris, and also completing failing to do anything to save Uryuu from his imminent demise. What do I mean? Well, let’s take apart her statements:

“Because I said that, Kurosaki-kun is trying to help me.” This is an assumption on her part, and it is wrong.

“I trained because I didn’t want to be a burden to him.” Mind you, she also says this in both the Xcution and TYBW arcs, and is a burden and fails in both as well (the infamous ”Why am I crying?” and “Her shield didn’t work” moments). This should have been a learning moment for her and it was not.

“I came here because I wanted to protect him.” There are other meta posts that detail the selfishness of Orihime’s actions in Hueco Mundo and in general. I would also like to point out that this was also her exact same logic in going to Soul Society. She didn’t learn anything from that experience either.

“So why? Why at the very end did I depend on him?” A great question. One that she never truthfully owns up to, given (2). But there was a reason Kisuke told her to stay out of the war. You may recall Rukia’s statement to Orihime in chapter 228, Don’t Look Back, that “In a battle, the ones who get in the way are not the ones that lack power, but the ones that lack resolve.” She went on to say “Of all the battles in Soul Society, no one was a burden to anyone else. Not Ichigo, nor Sado, nor Ishida, and neither were you, Inoue. If any of you were less than who you are, I wouldn’t be where I am today.” This was very charitable of Rukia, because Orihime’s contribution to her rescue was negligible and was, to reiterate, not why she was even there. Furthermore, Orihime didn’t listen to her here either: she is once again demonstrating a lack of resolve, as she will continue to.

So Orihime doesn’t learn. Great. But maybe you’re thinking about (1). What do I mean she was wrong? I mean, doesn’t the manga confirm she’s right?

This is the crux of that argument. And this is also one of the cruxes of IchiHime as a whole. The thing is… it’s complete and utter bullshit.

This is the exact same scene in the original Japanese:

Now, I don’t speak or read Japanese very well at all. I’m still a novice at it. What I can do, however, is use optical character recognition and translation tools.

(よ)呼んでる - Yonderu - Calling

(よ)呼んでるんだ - Yonderunda - They’re calling

(き) 聞こえる - Kikoeru - I can hear

た立てよ - Ta tateyo - Stand up

た立 - Ta ta - Stand

(おれ)俺が - Ore ga - I will…

俺が護る - Ore ga mamoru - I will protect

(The parentheticals are furigana used as a pronunciation guide.)

Now do you see a single instance of “her” or “she” in this dialogue, particularly when it comes to the final line of “I will protect”? No, you don’t. Because it’s not there. It was never there until a biased translator inserted it into the dialogue. I’m not alone in this analysis, by the way.

Quite some time ago, @kodoku-no-maria did a wonderful analysis about Ichigo’s instincts (”Mistranslations that Created the IH Fandom”) that also covered this (using anime quotes instead) and came to a similar conclusion. It’s a great post and you should read it.

This isn’t the post she mentions in hers, but there is one done specifically of the manga by a deactivated account. You should read this post too. (This also notes other things, such as how Orihime says “Help, Kurosaki-kun!” and not “Help me, Kurosaki-kun!” so we can take it that the Mangastream / Mangareader English translation is just generally dodgy all around at this point. Which may well impact the points I made above about Orihime’s character; but I think given the events of the Xcution and TYBW arcs that it is evident she did not in fact learn anything, so I will stand by the basic thrust of them.)

Okay, so I’ve marshaled my evidence on the battle and provided corroborating analysis. (I have also reblogged all three of these posts because they’re good, although the links are to the original sources or as close to them as I could get.)

Ichigo didn’t turn into Full Hollow Ichigo because of Orihime. She had nothing to really do with it. Great. So what?

Well, let’s now move on to my theory.

Now, you might be thinking that it is fairly obvious that all of those lines are Ichigo’s inner monologue. But I don’t think it’s so obvious. In fact, I would suggest to you that it is actually a dialogue.

On the second page, with the third panel, it suddenly zooms in to the wound in Ichigo’s torso. This notably later becomes Full Hollow Ichigo’s Hollow hole. You notice here the dialogue changes, from commands (e.g., “Stand”) to personal pronouns (e.g., “I”).

I would submit to you that the first three lines are Ichigo’s. But I don’t think the last five are. I think they belong to two other entities. Especially the last three. First, let me steal two of Maria’s highlighted panels to make a point:

So who is talking? It’s simple:

Do you really think it’s a coincidence that Zangetsu (Hollow Zangetsu) shows up wearing the exact same outfit as ‘Full Hollow Ichigo’ after Tensa Zangetsu gives a speech about how:

I don’t think so. Ichigo “fell into despair and halted [his] progress” and Zangetsu, as ‘Full Hollow Ichigo’ is “the “source of [his] despair.” (This is the same despair that Rukia noticed when Ichigo came down from the top of the dome to confront Yammy.) As has been previously pointed out in the linked posts, we see this despair on the dome after Ulquiorra’s defeat in Ichigo’s attitude. Starrdust covered these, but let’s go over them again:

He’s doesn’t seem all that shocked or concerned here, to be honest.

He’s a lot more shocked at what he did to Uryuu.

But the thing that really gets him is that he’s gone and killed Ulquiorra. That’s his despair.

This is the first time he’s out and out killed somebody. (And yeah, Ulquiorra is dead because he had his bits vaporized with a cero, not purified.)

He finally has to learn this isn’t all fun and games, that you can’t turn everyone to your side and redeem them and be friends with them afterward, as he did with Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi, Byakuya, and even to an extent Dordoni and Grimmjow. This is exactly what Dordoni was warning him about. This is the lesson he will be forced to learn again after weakening Aizen long enough for Kisuke’s kidou to work on him.

And it is why later, his determination to “save everyone” in the Xcution arc by cutting Ginjou down and killing him (even if he turns into a Plus as revealed in TYBW, undermining the whole symbolic importance of the act) is a big deal for his character development, and one of the few redeeming aspects of that arc: it shows that Ichigo learned a lesson from this fight: sometimes to protect you have to kill.

And who taught him that lesson? Zangetsu.

Who was speaking in the 4th and 5th lines in that transformation sequence? My bet is “Zangetsu” (Quincy Zangetsu) or Tensa Zangetsu. And who was speaking in the 6th, 7th, and 8th lines? Zangetsu.

What was Zangetsu protecting? Ichigo. That’s his instinct. That’s all he cares about protecting, just like Tensa Zangetsu. He sure the fuck wasn’t protecting Orihime or Uryuu. And the mask of ‘Full Hollow Ichigo’ is there to protect those instincts. And the mindless rage of ‘Full Hollow Ichigo’ is Zangetsu’s rage at Ulquiorra for trying to kill Ichigo.

We of course know from much later, in TYBW, that zanpakutou spirits aren’t some separate entity from the wielder, but are the wielder (hence why we go from “The Blade and Me” to “The Blade IS Me”) which Ichigo will affirm in the reforging of his into the “two Zangetsus.” So this can ultimately be read as self-preservation instinct. These are the aspects of Ichigo that were willing to do what he himself consciously wouldn’t in order to stay alive.

(Also, Uryuu was an idiot and wrong to stop Zangetsu as Ulquiorra still clearly constituted a threat, so he frankly got what he deserved, if a bit harshly.)

In summary, not only did the fight above the dome in Las Noches not have anything to do with protecting Orihime, but it was entirely about Ichigo’s character development and relations with the personifications of his powers, and everyone has been reading it completely fucking wrong for years and years.

If you don’t know, now you know.

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forthesakeofpride · 5 years ago

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I couldn’t have said it better

(These asks were reordered from bottom-to-top to top-to-bottom for clarity.)

Alright, so the first thing I want to say in response to this is actually best summarized in the form of a song:

youtube

You are somebody that I don’t know But you’re takin’ shots at me like it’s Patrón And I’m just like, damn, it’s 7 AM Say it in the street, that’s a knock-out But you say it in a Tweet, that’s a cop-out And I’m just like, “Hey, are you okay?”

And I ain’t tryna mess with your self-expression But I’ve learned a lesson that stressin’ and obsessin’ ‘bout somebody else is no fun And snakes and stones never broke my bones

So oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh You need to calm down, you’re being too loud And I’m just like oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh (oh) You need to just stop Like can you just not step on my gown? You need to calm down

I would like you to seriously reread what you’ve written here (and copy-and-pasted to others) and tell me that it doesn’t come across as more than a little obsessive and psychotic. "This may seem like hate, but it’s not,“ you said anonymously, before going on a rant to strangers on the internet whom you had nominated as the representatives of “you guys.” Sure, okay, Heather.

Well, regardless, let’s go through this. First, you don’t understand 685/686. I’ve been over this before several times, but I will go over this one final time, as simply as I can. That said, I can’t guarantee that you will understand it when I do. I was unable to successfully tutor 1st graders how to do addition because my perspective was, “Either you understand it or you don’t,” and I don’t have the background in math to make such a simple concept exciting. The same might be true of this, because there is no way to critically analyze these chapters more succinctly than this, and so you still might not get it.

The point of 685/686, thematically, is that absolutely no one got what they wanted.

Renji wanted to surpass Byakuya. He remains Byakuya’s Lieutenant and has to settle for being under his sister (figuratively and probably literally too) who now also outranks him as a Captain.

Rukia wanted to reform Soul Society into a more humane institution that protects all souls. It is the same as it ever was, and if anything has doubled down on its practices by rebuilding the Soukyoku (on which it tried to kill her) a hundred times larger, and she is one of its main wardens.

Uryuu wanted anything but to be a doctor, ever since he watched his mom being autopsied by his dad. He is now a doctor, and all alone at that.

Chad promised his grandfather to never hurt people with his fists. He is now a boxer, doing exactly that for money.

Orihime wanted to go out and have several different exciting careers. She is instead a stay-at-home mom.

Ichigo wanted to save a “mountain full” of people, be Superman, leave Karakura, and be a Shinigami. He instead appears to run Isshin’s clinic now.

So, yes, you are correct: Kubo chose that Ichigo wind up with Orihime. It is exceedingly clear, from the context, that this is absolutely not a good thing.

That point is further reemphasized by Yhwach’s threat to come kill Ichigo and everyone else when they are at their happiest. And when does he reappear?

When Ichigo saw Rukia again.

Not when Ichigo asked Orihime out. Not when they started dating, officially or unofficially. Not when they were married. Not when she gave birth to his son. Not when his son said his first words.

Not when anything happened with Orihime or Kazui, but when he saw Rukia again.

That is your “Kubo-sensei” telling you directly that the happiest moment in Ichigo’s life was just simply seeing Rukia again, and not anything involving Orihime in any capacity whatsoever.

All of that should tell you that Ichigo and Orihime’s relationship is not exactly the stuff legends are made out of, because them winding up together is explicitly portrayed as a downer ending. A bad ending.

If you cared at all about the characters—if you cared at all about their desires, or their happiness—or if you cared at all that IchiHime was presented as even merely good, let alone destined or fated or whatever else, then you would be offended by this ending too.

Because the ending is “Kubo-sensei” straight-up unequivocally telling you that IchiHime is bad and tragic. It is something that one must demonstrate “courage” in the face of. It requires stoicism. It is a bad ending, but that’s life. That’s what the ending means.

He did you dirty too. You just don’t want to see it, because you are so obsessed with the concept of “winning.” Well, this was mutually-assured destruction: everyone lost. Especially you.

Moving on: no, Kubo doesn’t really get attention or money from us. I’m not really sure where this idea comes from.

I’m not an expert on Japanese intellectual property rights and licensing, but I know enough about them in general to know that very little if any money goes to Kubo personally from ongoing Bleach merchandise sales. For example, KLab more than likely has a contract with Shueisha (representing Kubo, hence why they’re put together on BBS’s title card), TV Tokyo, Dentsu, and Pierrot, wherein they pay those entities a fixed amount to license Bleach per year or per contractual term. It’s not like Kubo is making money off of every orb purchase or every figurine sold or something. These things don’t work like that.

As for attention, he’s still hiding from social media (for reasons of his own, unrelated to the fandom), and the people who give him attention are… you. People like you. “True Bleach fans” who can’t stop treating all his shit like it’s solid gold. We have made it fairly clear we don’t need him or care what he thinks.

Regarding BBS, maybe you haven’t noticed, but the majority of the imagery they use is IchiRuki-focused. The last title screen was IchiRuki. The Guild button is IchiRuki. The Events button is IchiRuki. The Chronicle Quest button is IchiRuki. Here, I’ve helpfully highlighted this for you:

While they do occasionally toss IH a bone, the last January event also ended on an IR note despite the ridiculous crowing about it being IH. While I’m at it, even the current supposedly “IH” title screen is anything but.

It doesn’t take Michelangelo or Da Vinci to figure out the composition here is not terribly suggestive. While Rukia is indeed off to one side, the fact Uryuu, Zangetsu, and the title card are between Ichigo and Orihime (and they’re looking in different directions) makes it pretty evident that they’re not being visually associated together. It is at best a “general” title screen. Uryuu is showing more visual interest in Ichigo than Orihime is.

I’ll come back to “the anime” in a minute. Let’s talk about their “tag-team move.” Do you mean the one that ended like this?

This one that didn’t work whatsoever?

This one where Ichigo wasn’t concerned at all that Orihime might be dead or dying as she lay there on the ground?

This one where he absolutely gave into despair?

How romantic. Truly, what an excellent battle-couple they make. Their combat effectiveness and synergy is just astounding. I for one would love to see it animated.

(Let’s not forget that later, Orihime can’t repair Zangetsu without some nonsense shenanigans from Tsukishima either. Just like how her healing abilities are useless against any sufficiently strong residual reiatsu. Ah, but that would require reading the manga closely…)

Finally, on to the idea of the anime returning. Here’s the thing: news about a trailer also doesn’t really mean anything. Sure, it could be TYBW. Or it could be The Honey Dish Rhapsody. Or it could be a thousand other things. I neither know, nor particularly care, what it actually is, on top of my explanations as to why animating TYBW would be a dumb business decision.

Here’s why: even if it is a TYBW anime, it will have to be an adaptation of TYBW. They will still have to follow the plot of TYBW. And TYBW was a pile of shit. It wasn’t just a pile of shit for IR, it was a pile of shit in general, and a pile of shit for IH in particular.

Perhaps you don’t recall that Orihime spends most of the arc off-panel, having been ditched in Hueco Mundo for most of it (chapters 500–586)?

Oh, but just think, you wouldn’t just get to see the Ichigo-Orihime “tag team” attack totally and utterly failing! You’d also get delights like:

Orihime and Chad utterly failing to believe in Ichigo! (Just like in the Xcution arc where it was demonstrated that Byakuya was truer friend to Ichigo than either of them!)

Orihime being reduced to a pair of tits, each bigger than her own head!

Ichigo totally ignoring Orihime!

And who can forget the delight of Orihime selling out her dignity to dress slutty at Kisuke’s suggestion to try and get Ichigo’s attention, only for it to not work at all?

Yes, truly, TYBW would be a fantastic arc for IH that would surely win over the populace and convince everyone of the chemistry between these two characters!

Except it wouldn’t. Because they have no chemistry. And they didn’t. See, what’s really funny is that not only did TYBW not give you anything, but it was just following up on the Xcution arc not giving you anything.

Because ORIHIME VISION was played for laughs, just like say, Shuhei constantly is.

Because despite Chad and Orihime being about as important to Ichigo, he couldn’t even bother to say bye.

Because he just didn’t have time to deal with her bullshit.

I could go on, but this post is already long enough.

You see, you’re real keen to dismiss “all the scene or poem shit or parallel or the hell else thing,” but the truth is, that’s all there is to a manga. It is panels of art and text on a page. The rest is just in your head. And it is from those panels of art and text that animated scenes and spoken dialogue would be created. And the funny thing is… there are no IH moments in these arcs. They simply don’t exist.

So really, what you’re hoping and praying for is not just for TYBW to be adapted. Given your evident thirst, I doubt that the perhaps 5–10 minute epilogue of 685/686 at the end of 4–5 seasons would be enough for you. You’d need the animation team to decide to sprinkle in a whole lot of IH filler along the way too.

That didn’t work out so hot for the Xcution arc. How did that one end again? Oh, that’s right: they made up their own (better) ending for it. Are you really willing to bet your money on a TYBW anime going out of its way for IH, if you even get it? Or would you really be satisfied with those 5–10 minutes? Are you really so sure you’d even still get them?

Ultimately, I don’t care. You’re blocked. But, I will say this: in a way I almost kind of pity you. It seems really sad being a militant anonymous IH, desperately and eternally craving outside validation. You have so very little to cling to. It must be hard.

Good luck with that, Heather.

#anti ichihime #pro ichiruki

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