feyremy

[feyremy]

Laudna: "That bit she said at the very end... That this is what you're designed for" Ashton: "That hit you, too, didn't it?" Laudna: "Yes. It made me think of FCG and it also... I feel like I owe you [Imogen] an apology. I feel like I understood your mom on a deeper level in that moment. I think it's just reminiscent of something it sounds like we all struggle with... Not being able to supersede that feeling of being designed, controlled, manipulated. But it also just made my heart break for her. It feels like we've been very privileged to go on a journey guided by FCG. To learn more, that we're more than just what our creators intended for us. And I don't think she's [Liliana] had that... It made me sad and grateful at the same time."

I think Laudna comes out of this encounter with a better understanding of Liliana, and empathy for her, yes, but more that that Laudna pities her. She feels sorry for Liliana, that she hasn't had anyone in her life that's helped her see that she's more than what Predathos intends for her. She draws a clear line between herself and Liliana on that account. She's had FCG and Imogen and the rest of the party, and they've taught her that she's more than just Delilah's creation.

Laudna is drawing a stronger parallel between herself and FCG, and herself and Imogen than she is herself and Liliana. Specifically what makes that difference is that Bells Hells have had each other and have learned together that they can be more.

It's actually a pretty significant shift for Laudna to now be clearly stating that she is more than what Delilah made her. Since the beginning of the campaign but especially since she killed Bor'dor, she has been struggling with the feeling that she'll never escape Delilah's control over her. She's been concealing, pulling away, feeding Delilah because if she can't escape she might as well go along with it and try to use it.

As much as Ashton has been trying all campaign to get FCG to see that they're a full person and not just a construct, Imogen has been trying all campaign to get Laudna to see that she is her own person distinct from Delilah. In the wake of FCG's sacrifice, Laudna is finally brought to the point of acknowledging that.

It's interesting that the member of Bells Hells most vocally sympathetic to Liliana last episode wasn't Imogen, but Laudna. Imogen of course loves her mother and wants to believe the best of her, but her repeat experiences of reaching out to her and getting nothing but cult rhetoric and vague reassurances have left her jaded to the idea that her mother could ever truly change even if she helps them

But Laudna extends sympathy to Liliana, saying she understands what it's like to be a person designed by a force outside oneself and at the mercy of their designs and whims. And I do think Laudna understands what that feels like! It's a pretty apt description of her relationship with Delilah as she perceives it. But I'm doubtful of how accurately it describes Liliana and the other Ruidusborn's relationship with Predathos, especially since we know from Imogen's role in the story that they can resist, they can fight back, and they can choose not to follow the siren's song of Ruidus. But I think Laudna sees enough of her own story in Liliana, and is lacking enough in emotional maturity, that she's drawing a one-to-one comparison where it doesn't really exist

What makes this especially interesting/odd is that there are characters in all this that do have a fairly equivalent experience to Laudna: Derrig and Will. The people killed for convenience as part of a larger plot that they were in no way involved in; murdered as a simple means to an end. But it's a woman that's part of the group that perpetrated that violence that Laudna chooses to relate to

[feyremy]

Lucy, when Kate makes her look at a spreadsheet: 😒

Lucy, when anyone else doesn't appreciate Kate's work: (ง'̀-'́)ง

all i’m saying is if we had lucy this episode she’d have told kate her research was very valuable :(

[feyremy]

Lmao Imogen’s journey with the Gods from drunkenly shouting “U Good? Things feel fucked?” at the Moonweaver to having her calls screened by Pelor to flat out rejecting the sign sent to her by the Matron. And now the Stormlord and Earthbreaker Groon show up like “we saw you from across the room at the war plans meeting and we liked your vibe”

[feyremy]

I’ve been thinking about this more and again I’d push back on the idea that Imogen is uniquely selfish or flawed for thinking this way. These questions about what should be done and should the gods be saved and do the gods deserve to be saved has been a through-line for the campaign for all of the PCs. Up until FCG became a follower of the Changebringer none of the hells had a connection with the gods that would lead to them definitively thinking the gods should be saved.

I think Imogen is the most vocal of the hells about this conflict that she feels because she is most personally tied to this question. She thinks stopping Ludinus and saving the gods may mean the destruction of Predathos and she believes destroying Predathos may kill her or fundamentally change her to be unrecognizable. She knows that stopping Ludinus and saving the gods may mean that she or one of her closest friends may have to personally kill her mother.

Imogen has been voicing this conflict within herself and desperately searching for a reason to feel good and justified and righteously convicted about doing this. She keeps coming up empty handed but still falling on the side of saving the gods anyway even though it personally feels bad for her.

Orym can feel good about this because he’s avenging his dead family and protecting his home and a leader he believes is good and righteous. He’s neutral on the gods themselves but has no reason to feel conflicted about his choice to protect them. FCG believes the Changebringer cares for him and gives them purpose. They don’t have to feel conflicted about protecting the Changebringer. And still FCG just questioned if this was right just because they thought the Changebringer might not care about them at all. The rest of the hells feel neutral to negative about the gods but still don’t have a personal stake in it that would make this a particularly challenging decision. (This may be changing for Fearne who has more of a personal stake in it that we realized. It’s also unclear what the Sorrowlord intentionally ensuring Fearne was ruidusborn means for her.)

So Imogen has a great personal stake in these questions about Ludinus and the gods and the ruby vanguard and Predathos. She feels sure that acting to protect the gods will have bad outcomes for her personally. To this point she still has decided to help the gods because she sees it as what’s best for them and the people of Exandria and she recognizes the selfishness of her own feelings regarding this.

Of course this conflict isn’t going away. It will keep arising and Imogen will have to keep choosing until everything with Ludinus and the moon is resolved. To save the gods Imogen will have to keep deciding to do something she believes is against her own self interest. And maybe this will change but to this point even when she’s questioning and struggling with this choice she has chosen saving the gods. Maybe she falters. Maybe when confronted face to face with her mother she chooses differently. Maybe Ludinus or Predathos offer her something too tempting like the power to permanently separate Delilah from Laudna. Maybe. But so far she’s choosing the gods.

It's always interesting when a character thinks this way but being only interested in saving something that loves you / not particularly wanting to work to protect something that doesn't love you is such a limited way of engaging with the world. Just to sort of messily talk through with wrt Imogen in this latest episode (3.79).

To love back as a prerequisite for defending something's right to survival is self-centered. The mollusks and trees and frogs and beetles and stones do not love us (at least, in ways that most people readily interpret and parse as affection), but still we should fight to protect them.

Imogen has always been rather self-centered (as in largely concerned with her own affairs and highly prioritizing her own needs and how things relate to her specifically — however, this is not inherently bad in a character, I emphasize, and it makes her complex and interesting) in her perspective on the world, but generally speaking, from outside of that perspective, in the idea of trying to fight for the survival of something (or deciding against doing that), the consideration of whether that something loves you is misguided. Even outside consideration of the gods, not every person in the world will love you, not every animal and plant and rock and river, and that has no bearing on questions of survival and place in the world.

Imogen has a right to feeling bitter or resentful or hurt, and it absolutely makes sense she feels this way and it is not at all bad that she does, but I think there's a lack of perspective in that this is a conflict that is larger than personal feelings at an individual interpersonal basis. In fact, Ludinus is counting on everyone prioritizing their personal feelings above everything else, on not only feeling negatively but ALSO allowing those negative feelings to overwhelm their judgment.

And, it's an interesting flaw that Imogen consistently has, in that she recurrently has trouble conceptualizing that she and her feelings and her concerns and how things affect her are not always the most important concerns, especially in situations of scale. She lives very much in her own head, so to speak, and she has trouble looking outside of her own point of view.

But, it sparks some core questions about that. Why do they need to love you specifically for you to consider protecting their survival? Is your personal bitterness so important and valuable that you will consign them to annihilation? Do you ask everyone and everything in the world to love before you allow them the dignity and right to exist?

[feyremy]

I think Imogen does realize that her feelings of bitterness and resentment and abandonment are not the most important considerations here though. She has repeatedly questioned whether saving the gods is what they should do and has questioned why they should save gods that have never helped her or the rest of the hells but she has also repeatedly committed to saving the gods and working against Ludinus. She's struggled with it because she's never had any positive feelings towards the gods and she desperately wants a connection with her mother. She's also been continually searching for a sign or event that could give her positive feelings towards the gods and hasn't found one that's truly changed her feelings but she's still repeatedly stated her intentions of helping the gods and taken action to back that up. Add to that that Imogen believes there's a high probability that stopping Ludinus/destroying Predathos will kill her. Imogen recognizes the selfishness of her resentments towards the gods and is constantly grappling with it and choosing to act in opposition to those feelings, choosing to act in a way she feels will not be beneficial to herself.

Ep 74 (3:27:53) "How do we stop Predathos? How do we keep him from devouring everything? "

Ep 68 (0:47:59) "Are you setting him free? Predathos? Is it going to really destroy the gods?" "You deserve to be free." "At what cost, Mama?"

Ep 68 (1:01:26) "I know all of us have said we're stopping it, but this is the first time I've really felt I want it to go away."

"I want to help the gods. These demons getting loose, the gods are the only thing keeping that at bay, right?"

"She [Liliana] said she wanted to help us, but in the wrong way."

"So she [Liliana] knows it's wrong." "I think so."

Ep 67 (O:23:56) "No, I don't-- Obviously I think-- Yes, Predathos is bad, and I want to--" "Feels like you're trying to convince yourself of that." "Well, a little bit. I'm feeling better about my abilities and what that means for me. And I feel like ending Predathos could potentially end me in a way, which is fine. It's worth that. I don't know if that is gone if I'll be who I am anymore."

"Predathos is bad. Ludinus is bad."

Ep 64 (3:45:21) "If we get rid of Predathos, I don't know if I'll continue to have any abilities or I don't know what will happen to me."

Ep 49 (2:15:07) "Any high order paladins or stuff like that? Somebody who would fare to lose a lot if the gods go away." "Why, do you need convincing?" "No. But if we're looking for powerful people that will actually help us--"

Ep 46 (1:49:52) "I certainly don't like the idea that a lot of people could be wiped out with this one event. I don't like... I don't think he [Ludinus] should have control over it. Just one person deciding the fate of so many?"

"If Predathos devoured the gods, would he stop at the gods, or would he devour the entire world?"

Imogen is also not the only one in the hells to express these feelings and doubts. Chetney is undecided on the gods. He's wondered if Predathos should be destroyed. But he's also committed to stopping Ludinus. Laudna and Ashton have both stated their outright resentment of the gods and questioned saving them while also agreeing to stop Ludinus. Fearne is neutral on the gods and hasn't really fully expressed an opinion on why she's going to help save the gods and stop Ludinus. Orym's commitment to the cause comes more from wanting to stop the people who killed his father and husband than wanting to do the right thing. Orym is fortunate that his personal feelings and protecting the gods align so well. This past episode FCG questioned his commitment to helping the Changebringer because he feels she just cares about herself not him.

Everyone in the party is grappling with these philosophical questions in some way, weighing their own feelings and what they feel will be beneficial to themselves vs what they think is good or right or will benefit most people on Exandria. And so far the party is choosing what they think is the greater good even when that doesn't align with their feelings. I would even say Imogen's commitment to this is the greatest in the party outside of Orym and FCG because she's struggled so much against her personal feelings but continues to choose the path of helping the gods and stopping Ludinus.

It's always interesting when a character thinks this way but being only interested in saving something that loves you / not particularly wanting to work to protect something that doesn't love you is such a limited way of engaging with the world. Just to sort of messily talk through with wrt Imogen in this latest episode (3.79).

To love back as a prerequisite for defending something's right to survival is self-centered. The mollusks and trees and frogs and beetles and stones do not love us (at least, in ways that most people readily interpret and parse as affection), but still we should fight to protect them.

Imogen has always been rather self-centered (as in largely concerned with her own affairs and highly prioritizing her own needs and how things relate to her specifically — however, this is not inherently bad in a character, I emphasize, and it makes her complex and interesting) in her perspective on the world, but generally speaking, from outside of that perspective, in the idea of trying to fight for the survival of something (or deciding against doing that), the consideration of whether that something loves you is misguided. Even outside consideration of the gods, not every person in the world will love you, not every animal and plant and rock and river, and that has no bearing on questions of survival and place in the world.

Imogen has a right to feeling bitter or resentful or hurt, and it absolutely makes sense she feels this way and it is not at all bad that she does, but I think there's a lack of perspective in that this is a conflict that is larger than personal feelings at an individual interpersonal basis. In fact, Ludinus is counting on everyone prioritizing their personal feelings above everything else, on not only feeling negatively but ALSO allowing those negative feelings to overwhelm their judgment.

And, it's an interesting flaw that Imogen consistently has, in that she recurrently has trouble conceptualizing that she and her feelings and her concerns and how things affect her are not always the most important concerns, especially in situations of scale. She lives very much in her own head, so to speak, and she has trouble looking outside of her own point of view.

But, it sparks some core questions about that. Why do they need to love you specifically for you to consider protecting their survival? Is your personal bitterness so important and valuable that you will consign them to annihilation? Do you ask everyone and everything in the world to love before you allow them the dignity and right to exist?

[feyremy]

If any of your previous characters were different classes, what would they be?

[feyremy]

We gotta get the Nein to the Feywild so Fjord can be in an environment where intimidating/deceiving/persuading the wildlife will work

[feyremy]

Mighty Nein reunion where Gelidon the Nightmare in Ivory and Isharnai the Prism Sage have joined forces to exact revenge on the Nein

[feyremy]

Summon Old Person

1st Level, V

Range: 10 feet

Duration: Instantaneous

You speak a title typically held by the elderly. If you are in a populated area, an older person responds to you and can answer simple questions about the local goings on. They are friendly towards you and your allies initially, but not charmed. More complicated requests will require a DC 15 charisma check.

If you are in a remote or isolated area, the spell fails.

Classes: Liam O'Brien

[feyremy]

i feel like we cannot skim over that interview reveal that marisha almost stabbed travis in the chest with a real knife during matt's proposal

[feyremy]

this bitch hasn't opened a door with her hands in years

[feyremy]

I know it was a goof and they couldn't remember that Weva Vudol was a cleric of the Raven Queen but the Moonweaver could actually be well suited to Lauda. From the Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting -

"the god of moonlight and the autumn season"

"a young girl of light-blue skin and white hair, with a body and limbs that dissolve into silky strands of silver moonlight, caressing and creating the edges of the shadows."

"Seize your own destiny and pursue your own passions."

"Let the shadows protect you from the burning light of fanaticism and the absolute darkness of despair."

"Walk unbridled and untethered, forging new memories and experiences."

[feyremy]

C3 E67 Imogen: *gives Pâté scritches*

C3 E2 Imogen: "I never get used to it. Two years; I never get used to it."

C3 E65 Imogen: "Missed you, Pâté."

[feyremy]

"kill them with kindness" wrong, chain lightning.

[feyremy]

[feyremy]

In addition to this differing interpretation of Imogen I think there's also a differing interpretation of Laudna among people who don't enjoy imodna. Laudna generally being okay and accepting of what was done to her. Laudna being positive and optimistic. Laudna fully trusting Imogen in her capabilities and her goodness as a person. All of that is taken with skepticism.

On 4sd Taliesin talked about how Ashton saw Laudna and was like, "You are not okay. You're a fucking liar and I can prove it." I think some have a similar view of Laudna never fully believing her as genuine and truthful, always wanting to poke at her to get a reaction. And if you don't think that Laudna is being open with everything, it's reasonable to then interpret their relationship as filled with resentment and fear.

i mean i wouldn't consider disliking imodna and disliking imogen as equivalent of course. and i don't even think it's a thing of people disliking imogen, bc sometimes you express your love for a character by not shutting up about what you think is wrong with them. but like, it tracks that a lot of the people who see imodna as empty and lacking real connection are the same ones who focus near exclusively on the harm (both real and imagined) that imogen causes others, to the point of seeming deeply disinterested in the harm she’s experienced herself and viewing any acknowledgement of it and its influence on her actions as coddling her.

like if i thought that the takeaway of imogen's story was that she does the things she does because she's selfish and manipulative, as opposed to indecisive and insecure and angry at the world, i would also see her and laudna's relationship as festering with unspoken resentments, stagnant instead of stabilizing. of course imodna doesn't make sense if you brush off the years of isolation and ostracization imogen faced as inessential to her character, and even more so if you think it was justified or largely her fault. because then the core thing that connects her and laudna - finding someone like them for the first time after years of excrutiating loneliness, and being not just accepted but loved for the same things that made them monstrous in the eyes of everyone else - is rendered meaningless.