doktoreth

[doktoreth]

The compliment was intentional and direct, and the points of contention are literally what you responded to. But yeah, I’ve been done with all this Naruto shipping nonsense for a long time now, so I don’t blame anyone for not replying.

long ask and check the link out

http://remedialaction.tumblr.com/post/109276598680/no-hinata-no-life

Naruto confusing romantic love with love for ramen is not as shallow as it sounds. For Naruto ramen is not just a food. It’s something that uniquely brings him joy and happiness. And he likes to share it with others, because that’s his way of sharing those feelings with them. He also bonded with people such as Iruka-sensei over ramen.

Teuchi’s chapter in Konoha Hiden confirms this theory: Teuchi was the first adult who treated a very young Naruto (4-6 years old) with kindness by inviting him to his store and treating him to a steaming bowl of ramen. As a result, his young mind connected ramen with being treated as a human being instead of a thing. It’s no wonder that, in time, “ramen” became equal to “love”.

????!!!??? NH really believe in this bullcrap???

None of the shit you said have any backing in the canon. Remedialaction just made this up. 1. if Naruto thought ramen = love, then it means he’s aware Hinata loved him, but ignored her knowingly for another 2 years. 2. Naruto didn’t compare his feelings for Hinata to ramen, he compared Hinata’s feelings for him to people’s feelings towards their favourite food. He’s trivializing Hinata’s confession. He actually didn’t reveal anything about his feelings for Hinata in that conversation.  

You know remedialaction’s arguments make your fandom look dumb right?

[doktoreth]

I kinda miss uchihagakure. Like, y’know how remedialaction specialized in NH bullshit? Uchihagakure is basically him but with SS bullshit, only she’s less patronizing.

To her credit, the garbage she makes up for SS is not as retarded as reme’s arguments. Whereas reme will do damage control like saying ramen = love, uchihagakure will see the mere act of Sasuke speaking to Sakura after staying silent in response to other characters, and she’ll take that to mean he finds some special comfort in her or some dumb shit like that, lmao. Good times.

long ask and check the link out

http://remedialaction.tumblr.com/post/109276598680/no-hinata-no-life

Naruto confusing romantic love with love for ramen is not as shallow as it sounds. For Naruto ramen is not just a food. It’s something that uniquely brings him joy and happiness. And he likes to share it with others, because that’s his way of sharing those feelings with them. He also bonded with people such as Iruka-sensei over ramen.

Teuchi’s chapter in Konoha Hiden confirms this theory: Teuchi was the first adult who treated a very young Naruto (4-6 years old) with kindness by inviting him to his store and treating him to a steaming bowl of ramen. As a result, his young mind connected ramen with being treated as a human being instead of a thing. It’s no wonder that, in time, “ramen” became equal to “love”.

????!!!??? NH really believe in this bullcrap???

None of the shit you said have any backing in the canon. Remedialaction just made this up. 1. if Naruto thought ramen = love, then it means he’s aware Hinata loved him, but ignored her knowingly for another 2 years. 2. Naruto didn’t compare his feelings for Hinata to ramen, he compared Hinata’s feelings for him to people’s feelings towards their favourite food. He’s trivializing Hinata’s confession. He actually didn’t reveal anything about his feelings for Hinata in that conversation.  

You know remedialaction’s arguments make your fandom look dumb right?

[doktoreth]

It’s the basis behind that “need” that needs to be thoroughly examined. I have an issue with how you premise what constitutes the majority of abortions; you’re focusing on miscarriages which are spontaneous abortions, the causes of which being quite severe compared to what you should be focusing on: induced abortions. An irreversible loss vs a reversible termination.

Perhaps this speaks to my ignorance, but I see no difference between a miscarriage “gone wrong” and miscarriages in general. Both result in the baby dying naturally to begin with. What would be an example of a miscarriage gone right? At any rate, I think everyone’s on the same page on miscarriages being bad.

If you meant to include all types of abortions, being spontaneous (miscarriages), induced, elective, medical, whatever, then you’re even more wrong on the overwhelming majority. It’s not miscarriages that’re the majority, it’s social and economic reasons. This is further substantiated by survey data, with most women reasoning they’re not ready for children. This isn’t a small portion to the point of being negligible. It’s frighteningly sizable is all I’m trying to say, regardless of how you analogize it with rifle murder ratios.

Your very last sentence requires a lot of dissecting in regards to the abortion debate, as I’d imagine we’d have disagreements on what a “formed baby” actually is and its importance. Thing is, I can agree with your conclusion, at least, that no one actively wants an abortion. I think the pro-life side, which is my side sorta, is quick to make value judgments on these types of issues. It does get annoying. Overall, I just wanted to make some clarifications, that’s all.

IDK to me most pro-life arguments are exactly the same as anti-gunners so... I dunno if it's just me but I see the same things between both. Forbidding either won't save lives

Guns are inanimate objects that can potentially protect people. Fetuses are living human beings who otherwise cannot defend themselves. I think that alone implies a huge difference.

[doktoreth]

“Ey, kid. Ya got the stuff?”

“N-No!”

“Ya hear that, Snow? Kid’s got zilch.”

“Bruh. Let’s push him around some.”

[doktoreth]

That’s . . . . actually kinda fucked up of Kim and Wade exploiting that shit. Wow.

[doktoreth]

Okay. I thought you meant he wasn’t referring to the special. My bad.

It’s not valid precisely because Toriyama doesn’t specify using events he remembers. He makes no specifications other than deeming the special’s exact contents as the setting used in the main story. That’s not the same thing as him saying he used only what he remembers. So far, I have been the only one in this discussion to not base canonicity on Toriyama’s memory or him being “beholden” to anything; I’ve only used Toriyama’s statements as my basis, so I’d say I’m free of any guilt attributed to me.

The very fact that Toriyama used the special’s exact contents in the main story without detailing any specific events debunks this. His verdict is pretty clear.

Just a reminder that these two events were not mutually exclusive like some insisted.

[doktoreth]

“The anime itself when that special exists only in anime format” is the special itself. I’m not sure why you make a distinction between the two when Toriyama means the special when he says “anime”, as he’s referencing where Bardock was born from.

Yes he does. You and meta can say he doesn’t but he does, solely due to the fact that he makes no effort in itemizing specific plot points or basic ideas as constituting “exact contents.” He only said “exact contents of the anime.” The most logical conclusion we can make as to what that entails is the overall story of the special itself.

Anything other than Toriyama’s meaning is indeed reaching, so I’m good. And no, “exact contents” isn’t what he recalls happening, it’s the opposite in fact:

“I don’t recall a lot about the exact contents of the anime.”

He doesn’t recall much of the exact contents of the anime, and yet he “used that setting in the main story” regardless. That setting = Exact contents of the anime [special] = the special itself ≠ basic ideas. Using later works such as Minus and the Broly movie as evidence only confirms that the special has been retconned, not that it was never canon.

Correct. The special is no longer canon because it’s been retconned/replaced. My entire point was to challenge meta’s argument that it was “never” canon to begin with, which is wrong.

Just a reminder that these two events were not mutually exclusive like some insisted.

[doktoreth]

I’d advise against adhering to a specific definition (two can play at that game too, after all). Stick to Toriyama’s given context of the word, being that the setting itself is used as an indicator for the special’s exact contents. Read this carefully:

“I don’t recall a lot about the exact contents of the anime, but I do remember it being quite well done. So I used that setting in the main story, as well.”

He doesn’t say setting OF the special. He’s treating the “exact contents of the anime” as “that setting” itself. Anyone, including meta, would have to be good at origami to twist the words “exact contents” to somehow not mean the events of the special. He can insist it not being canon all he wants, but it won’t change the facts.

Just a reminder that these two events were not mutually exclusive like some insisted.

[doktoreth]

Because Toriyama said it. Its absurdity doesn’t make it any less true.

Him being beholden or obligated or whatever fancy word you use for him in relation to his original works is an arbitrary criterion you’ve set for him in terms of what can be “canon.” None of this necessitates any preclusion of the special’s canonization.

I believe I’ve done so successfully, seeing as he doesn’t differentiate between “the exact contents of the anime” and the “setting.” He treats them as one and the same in the context of the interview. This seems to be the most apt interpretation.

The other case is one I’ve fully admitted to be an assumption of Toriyama’s motivations. I believe it be a sensible one. This particular case just happens to have more explicit evidence in my favor.

Ah. There’s the condescension we’ve all known you for, meta. Anywho, I’m happy to engage you so long as you continue to engage me.

Just a reminder that these two events were not mutually exclusive like some insisted.

[doktoreth]

I absolutely am, seeing as Toriyama’s shit memory evidently doesn’t preclude him from praising and incorporating elements from a special he explicitly references. His word trumps whatever criterion you set for canonicity.

You keep repeating this argument when Toriyama’s use of the word “setting” leaves us with no better option than the “exact contents of the anime.” He makes no specific reference because he’s speaking in generalities, as in the general story of the special, not whatever hyperspecific plot through-line you conveniently cherrypick to suit your narrative.

I would mirror the same sentiment to you, meta. There’s a reason why Toriyama doesn’t specify certain events within the special.

Just a reminder that these two events were not mutually exclusive like some insisted.

[doktoreth]

It means exact events. Toriyama’s own words:

“I don’t recall a lot about the exact contents of the anime, but I do remember it being quite well done. So I used that setting in the main story, as well.”

He categorically says “exact contents” while referring to the special. There’s nothing suggesting he’s leaving certain things out while retaining what was established in the manga only.

Just a reminder that these two events were not mutually exclusive like some insisted.

[doktoreth]

Lol. No, the fuck you don’t.

Can you share some things about yourself? Like random facts, age, gender, sexuality? Anything you feel like sharing thank you :-)

I look like Hinata Hyuuga. 

[doktoreth]

These types of posts you make would actually be solid debunks if you provided evidence for your claims. Still, glad to see this clarification for the fandom. I personally like the idea of this ongoing myth that genins are legal adults, but yeah, it’s still a myth.

Naruto Fanon: Genins are considered legal adults in Naruto-verse

As mentioned in my status update post, I will be making a series of theory and analyzing posts. This small post is the first of that series and in it, I will be debunking a fairly popular piece of Naruto fanon: that ninja genin are considered legal adults in Naruto-verse regardless of their actual age (as early as 5-6 years old and as late as early teenage years).  

A lot of Naruto fanfiction make use of this fanon, many of them popular ones that are then used as reference by new writers. You know those scenarios where the Rookie 9 use their new legal adult status to either get up to shenanigans (mostly getting drunk or some other antics) or to flout the will of their legal guardians or parents. Many more fanfics indirectly insinuate this fanon in their background worldbuilding details. 

This piece of fanon hearkens back to the days Naruto was merely a new fangled series and not the giant of shounen genre it is today, so it has been around for a very very long time. We never actually has concrete confirmation in canon Naruto that children become legal adults the moment they become genin. But because it has been around for so long that it’s come to be accepted as fact by fans who came into the fandom later and are not fully versed in the history of how it came to be. The only actual thing that comes closest to being evidence is when Kakashi and Iruka argued about the Rookie 9 being put into the Chunin exam. Iruka protested by saying they were still children and Kakashi replied that they were no longer Iruka’s students. They were now Kakashi’s soldier. So Iruka had no say in this matter.

This convo between Kakashi and Iruka is the only thing approaching evidence to the fanon construct that genin are legal adults in the ninja world. Over the years, that construct gained a life of its own and that convo is often held up as proof by its advocates. However, this so called proof doesn’t actually stand up to close examination. Notice that Kakashi said soldiers. He never actually said ‘adult’. He said soldier. There is such a thing called ‘child soldiers’ even in our world. Just because a person is a soldier does not necessarily means he is an adult. Kakashi also never actually disputed Iruka’s claim that these were still just children.

As a matter of fact, the series confirms again and again that majority of genin in Naruto verse are actually seen as children. For example, Hashirama Senju’s reason to create the alliance between Senju and Uchiha and later on founding the hidden village is because he wanted to stop the practice of ‘sending children to war and letting them die as fodder’. In his own chapters detailing the founding of Konoha, Hashirama remarked that the children of ninja could now survive long enough to have a childhood of their own and to eventually know all the joy and horror of life, following love, getting up to no good, getting old enough to drink. The series also makes a recurring theme out of children being sent out as child soldiers as a horror and tragedy (i.e. case of Haku, of Kakashi himself, of Itachi, of Gaara, and many more. They all have several things in common. They were children abnormally gifted in combat and they were all taken advantage of by the adults around them because of that very fact. Their lives were held up as tragedy and bitter lessons, and not something to emulate. Gaara’s father even admitted that he stole Gaara’s childhood. It wouldn’t have been such an issue were genins in Naruto-verse actually considered legal adults by their very own society and culture)

Further more, outside of participating in combat and war, we have actually never been shown the genin in Konoha participating in any legal adult activities. Legally speaking, what is the difference between an adult and a child? It is the ability to independently enter into legal contracts, legal marriages, as well as assume legal ownership over registered assets such as real estates or corporate entities. All of these legal rights and privileges have never been performed by any Konoha genin in canon.

So the construct that a ninja child automatically becomes a legal adult upon being made a genin doesn’t actually have a leg to stand on. What he actually becomes upon gaining the title of genin is actually a child soldier sanctioned by the state.

[doktoreth]

Toriyama used Bardock’s setting from the anime (by “anime”, he’s actually referencing the TV special from which he was debuted/born) in the main story. It’s in the beginning of the interview. Going by his own words, Toriyama does not just consider Bardock the character canon, he goes on to praise the special as well as stating that he used its “setting” in the main story. The special has always been canon.

Just a reminder that these two events were not mutually exclusive like some insisted.

[doktoreth]

I posted my rebuttal on my own blog. Couldn’t reblog or contact you for awhile, so I thought you blocked me or something. Just check my recent posts. Ignore the first paragraph.

So, who's plagueofgripes and why don't you like him that much?

I don’t know him enough to say whether I like him or not. I don’t like his opinions though.Long story short, he’s a YouTube ranter who got pushed by friends to start expanding what he typically covered, including Dragon Ball. He made a rather infamous video in which he declared that Japan, and Toriyama, hate Tien because Tien isn’t placed on the same level as, say, Trunks or Vegeta, as well as various other petty reasons including, but not limited to: Tien being Chinese, Tien not lasting much longer in the ToP, Tien not being an active-duty fighter, Tien not being a lot stronger than he is because “muh 24/7 training”, and most infamously, because it’s Krillin’s fault.Yes, he claims that Krillin should be the one left in the dust more than anyone else as he’s simply “weak, annoying, never contributes”, etc. Then claimed the sole reason Krillin got stronger (”which makes no narrative sense”) is because he’s “Goku’s little buddy” and as such is the recipient of what he called the “Toriyama handjob” in which he was supposedly powered up beyond all logic and reason in the plot just because Toriyama likes him and to appease… fanboys… who crap on Krillin frequently so… yeah.I mean, honestly? You can even point out to him how Krillin kept closing the gap between the two of them every time they parted ways to train & then met up again, how Krillin actually is quite naturally gifted and it’s established in the narrative, and he’ll still shrug it off and imply that Tien started stronger so Krillin catching up makes no sense somehow, all while never considering Tien was also an adult while they met him as children. Guy’s just convinced Tien’s amazing and shafted while Krillin just sucks 5ever and gets fluffed by the author regardless of any evidence. (And yes, ironically, he does cite the Z anime’s filler version of events.)

[doktoreth]

.

So, who's plagueofgripes and why don't you like him that much?

I don’t know him enough to say whether I like him or not. I don’t like his opinions though.Long story short, he’s a YouTube ranter who got pushed by friends to start expanding what he typically covered, including Dragon Ball. He made a rather infamous video in which he declared that Japan, and Toriyama, hate Tien because Tien isn’t placed on the same level as, say, Trunks or Vegeta, as well as various other petty reasons including, but not limited to: Tien being Chinese, Tien not lasting much longer in the ToP, Tien not being an active-duty fighter, Tien not being a lot stronger than he is because “muh 24/7 training”, and most infamously, because it’s Krillin’s fault.Yes, he claims that Krillin should be the one left in the dust more than anyone else as he’s simply “weak, annoying, never contributes”, etc. Then claimed the sole reason Krillin got stronger (”which makes no narrative sense”) is because he’s “Goku’s little buddy” and as such is the recipient of what he called the “Toriyama handjob” in which he was supposedly powered up beyond all logic and reason in the plot just because Toriyama likes him and to appease… fanboys… who crap on Krillin frequently so… yeah.I mean, honestly? You can even point out to him how Krillin kept closing the gap between the two of them every time they parted ways to train & then met up again, how Krillin actually is quite naturally gifted and it’s established in the narrative, and he’ll still shrug it off and imply that Tien started stronger so Krillin catching up makes no sense somehow, all while never considering Tien was also an adult while they met him as children. Guy’s just convinced Tien’s amazing and shafted while Krillin just sucks 5ever and gets fluffed by the author regardless of any evidence. (And yes, ironically, he does cite the Z anime’s filler version of events.)

[doktoreth]

Rebuttal against dragon-ball-meta

So my stupid ass has no idea how tumblr works, even to this day. After meta responded, I wasn’t able to reblog his stuff, message him, or even follow him. I’m quite certain he blocked me, which is . . . unexpected to say the least. And sad. A real eye-opener, that is. Here’s my rebuttal to his response. Someone let me know if he replies again or something, maybe copy+paste his shit for me, I dunno. Let’s begin:

Hey, thanks for responding, man. Appreciate it.

It’s Toriyama’s words against yours, pal. Regardless of how it was ignored or overwritten, none of this actually precludes its canonical connection with the main story. This isn’t actually an argument against filler’s canonicity, it just reaffirms the admittedly nonsensical connection Toriyama himself decided to establish. Let’s examine the entirety of the last scan(remember, fourth post):

“12: From time to time, il would happen that people whom I didn't even know were approaching me about the anime. Things were often said like: "Oh jeeze, between the manga and the anime, you must never take any time to let yourself breathe!". In reality, I had hardly worked at all on the anime, I had put confidence in my collaborators. I had enough to do just with the manga. I didn't want to work myself to death, you know...

Toriyama: I want to live until I'm 100 years old!

13: For example, drawing an image of a movement in a manga is relatively simple, but to animate this image, you had to decompose the movement and draw all the intermediary movements. That demands a colossal amount of work. (Ok, the example of Kame-sennin might not be the most appropriate...)”

Nothing much here. He’s essentially elaborating on how much his work is cut out for him. Now all that’s left is the final quotes:

“14: Of course, those who have read Dragon Ball have noticed that certain stories which are found in the anime didn't existe in the manga.

Oolong: What's this? I never saw that in the manga....”

Toriyama and Oolong mention the original stories found in the anime, the filler stories. Obviously.

“END: As one adventure in the manga corresponds to about 10 minutes of animation, and since one episode comprises on average 30 minutes, the entire series of Dragon Ball would have passed by very quickly. The team of animators therefore had to insert some original stories. I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!”

Toriyama’s reasoning for inserting original stories is padding, as you know. He’s not talking about how it’s fine if people like both or how the padding didn’t upset him. Anywho, we know that when he speaks of “original stories”, he’s speaking in a narrative context.

“Toriyama: Dragon Ball, it's the anime and the manga!”

Whereas the previous quote denotes his reasoning, this final quote confirms his overall treatment of the anime, being that it along with the manga comprise one wholesome narrative. Everyone knows it’s for the sake of padding. That’s been obvious from the very beginning. Still doesn’t negate Toriyama’s clear and explicit connection between the two mediums. Remember, Toriyama > You/Me.

I’m not sure what your point is in saying I think those types of alterations are “akin” to the driving episode. My view on the filler’s canonicity is akin to Toriyama’s. I also think it was a stupid decision on his part to establish such a connection for reasons I’m sure you’d agree with, such as character breaking moments and inconsistent power levels. I see filler as supplementary evidence for Plague, honestly. He doesn’t need ‘em to defend Tien.

See, the issue there is that all that fandom backlash and meme shit is frankly an insignificant indicator as to where his popularity is concerned. Weekly Jump 1993 has Krillin living the good life just behind Piccolo, Weekly Jump 1995 has Krillin taking more of a backseat and yet he’s still popular enough to remain in the top 10, and Dragon Ball Forever has Krillin just catching up back to Piccolo. He’s evidently the most popular human character, so I’m not at all out of line in connecting the dots (or votes, in this case) to his relevancy in the series. No conceit or irrational dislike here, meta, when I’ve mostly no problems with Krillin’s treatment in the series, only how others like Tien are being left in the dust.

Christ, this again? I can tell this conversation is heading to, “Oh, Krillin’s progress makes sense for his status as the strongest human” instead of addressing Plague’s overall gripe. Frankly, the exact point of plateau is too vague and arbitrary to pinpoint for any of these guys. Meta, please listen, just listen: I believe you. Krillin’s progression making him surpass Tien WITHOUT artificial power boosts is realistic. Would it have happened eventually or inevitably? Neither of us know, but that was never the point, which is that Tien’s importance as a fighter is no less than that of Krillin, and yes, even Yamcha. Plague’s premise was never reliant on Tien being the strongest, he touched on that for literally only a few seconds near the end, so let’s drop this tangent on who would’ve surpassed whom, yeah?

Well, first off, I would respectfully ask you to quell your bias for Krillin, as Plague’s video on Tien touches on him quite infrequently anyway. You spend too much time on this subject, and while I’m happy to engage you on it, it’s quite the digression. His videos being internet comedy videos (scroll down and you’ll find his comment), he makes sure to stay on point without rambling off-topic. The comedic value of his content would be severely diminished if he was all like, “Tien is fading into irrelevancy in comparison to other fan favorites”, instead of saying, “This is a Toriyama handjob.” You can call this intellectual dishonesty from a dishonest hack, I call it what it is: comedy. If you can discern no difference between the two in relation to his actual points, then I can’t help you there. I can only hope I’ve made everyone here more open-minded and vice versa.

I’m beginning to think you haven’t watched his video, meta. He doesn’t think Toriyama hates Tien. He called Tien’s stand against Cell his “greatest accomplishment” in the end of the video, albeit begrudgingly. Any examples in Z are mere digressions, anyway, as he specifically criticizes Tien’s treatment in SUPER. Anyone can look at Tien’s entry into the ToP and take that to mean he was kept important; Tien’s performance was a joke comparatively even in terms of strategy, forget power. His only notable achievements are Tri-Beaming an already incapacitated Za Priccio, courtesy of Roshi, earning Tien a knockout and his FIRST EVER ATTACK landed on an enemy that isn’t a Frieza soldier, and the most humiliating ringout ever in the form of using clones to tackle Harmira off the ring AFTER Tien’s original body was thrown off when he just as well could’ve used one measly clone as bait beforehand. Yes, power isn’t the sole indicator, but it’s the most important one in Dragon Ball. So when the ToP is played up to be needing more strategy, Tien is still treated as a joke of an afterthought.

That’s great, meta. Neither do I and neither does Plague.

I wildly disagree. His thoughts are spot on precisely because he acknowledges Tien’s motivations as a character. I don’t find them argued from emotion any more than I find yours regarding Krillin, tbh. It’s okay for you to be wrong sometimes too, meta.

P.S. You’ve said this already. I agree. I think the same can be argued for Tien given the extremely vague context as to what certain side guys have been doing off-screen. I’m literally watching the Tien video for the third time (you don’t stop talking about this, so I need to make sure), and I get the impression that Plague’s mad about Tien’s piss-poor performance comparatively rather than him being the strongest human (again, this was NOT the crux of his argument).

P.P.S You’ve . . . made this point already. Nobody said this. Plague didn’t say this. Jesus. He never even spoke of Krillin’s popularity to begin with. I know why Krillin’s popular. Hell, I loved his character from the very beginning. Krillin, Krillin, Krillin, Krillin, Krillin. We get it, meta.