cyren-myadd

[cyren-myadd]

[cyren-myadd]

Well, @cyren-myadd, you were right about that really blurry thumbnail I posted several weeks ago! It was a baby! 🥰 A whole bunch of them! 🥹

Rey’akina went from the best big sister to the proudest mama! 💙🩵💙 All while being Toruk Makto, she’s a good multitasker! 😂

Sadly, the kids do not have names yet. Three boys and one girl! So far… 😉

If you couldn’t tell, Uncle Spider is the oldest boy’s hero! The twins came next and the girl picked up her daddy’s extra features. Then another little baby boy all snuggled against his mama’s back.

I’d put this seven years after the events of SAS, so Spider is 23 - the same age Rey’akina was when they met. 🕷️💙✨

Sorry for the spoiler for anyone who hasn’t finished Silent As Shadows or read Radio Silence! But I did promise a happy ending! 💙🐞

[cyren-myadd]

Outsiders trio

Eywa’s chosen daughter, the boy who befriended the outlaw Payakan, and now a human-turned-Ash Na’vi.

[cyren-myadd]

Theory: Lo'ak and Payakan will go through Iknimaya in Avatar 3

I've been thinking about this concept art and I've got a guess as to what's going on here: I believe this is Lo'ak and Payakan going through their iknimaya!

When I saw this, the first conclusion I came to is that this must be some kind of Metkayina ceremony involving both the Na'vi and the tulkun. While I was thinking about what kind of ceremony this could be, I remembered something from the Avatar Visual Dictionary:

"adolescent Metkayina must complete a number of coming-of-age rituals, known as iknimaya... one of these ceremonies includes bonding with a tsurak and various tests with their tulkun spirit brother or sister. Once a Metkayina has completed these tests, they are bestowed with a special garment, their first tattoo..."

If you look closely, you can see a small, arched figure swimming directly above the center tulkun's mouth, as if they're dancing or something. I think the tulkun is Payakan and the figure is Lo'ak. Whatever they're doing here is one of the tests they have to undergo for the ikmimaya ceremony. The Metkayina tribe and the tulkun pod are gathered to watch, officially forgiving Payakan and welcoming him back into the pod, and acknowledging Lo'ak as a young warrior.

Another reason I believe this is Lo'ak and Payakan's iknimaya is because of these two images of Spider in Avatar 3.

Since Spider is the only main character who isn't completely CGI, we've gotten some sneak peeks at his appearance in Fire and Ash. In the image on the left, he's wearing the Metkayina warrior garment and in the image on the right, he has a Metkayina tattoo on his arm. According to the Visual Dictionary, young warriors only receive the garment and the first tattoo after they've completed iknimaya.

Now, how Spider "passed iknimaya" as a human with no tulkun sibling is a mystery to me. I can only assume the Metkayina gave him the iknimaya equivalent of the special Olympics. But anyways, the whole I reason I brought up Spider in the first place is because of the fact he went through Iknimaya at all. If Spider, the strange little alien outcast the Metkayina were only just introduced to at the end of Avatar 2 will be allowed to go through iknimaya, then Lo'ak, the boy who lived with them for months, befriended their children, and learned the Way of Water, will definitely be allowed to go through iknimaya. It would be insane if Spider went through iknimaya and Lo'ak didn't considering how much closer Lo'ak is to the Metkayina.

So even if I'm wrong and the concept art isn't depicting Payakan and Lo'ak's iknimaya, I'm still sure they will go through iknimaya together at some point in Avatar 3. Even if we don't see the actual ceremony on screen (which would be a huge disappointment 😭) I bet we will see Lo'ak with the Metkayina warrior garment and tattoos, and we'll possibly even see Payakan get some tattoos too!

What do you guys think? Do you think the concept art is iknimaya or something else? Do you believe Lo'ak and Payakan will go through iknimaya? What do you think Spider will do to get his warrior garment and tattoo?

[cyren-myadd]

LOOK AT THE BIG CHONKY BABY! 💙💙💙

I'm already in love with these creatures, they seem like gentle giants! But I just know at some point one of them is gonna get hurt in the next movie and I'm not gonna be able to take it 😭😭😭 the tulkun hunt and Wainfleet shooting the ilu already broke my heart

[cyren-myadd]

She got that racoon eyeliner lmao

[cyren-myadd]

Nvm, u/exostrike of reddit and @spider-socorro-stan let me know this character from Frontiers of Pandora, Kukulope, is confirmed to be a Wind Trader.

I am a little bit disappointed, ngl. I wasn't expecting any differences as extreme as the reef people, but I was at least hoping to see some variation in physique, coloration, or skin pattern, just anything to tell them apart from the forest people. But oh well, it's not a big deal at the end of the day 🤷🏻‍♀️ I'm still very excited to meet the Wind Traders and see what their skyfaring culture is like!

Do you think the Wind Traders will have any unique adaptations?

We've gotten all this exciting concept art and sneak peeks at the ash people, but we have yet to see a single wind trader. It's got me wondering what they'll look like. Since the Reef People have rudder-like tails and arms adapted for swimming, and Forest People have thin, flexible tails and arms that help keeping balance while climbing, do you think the Wind Traders will have any unique adaptations to help them survive at high altitudes?

One idea I had is that they might have darker skin, maybe a darker shade of blue or even purplish. They seem like they spend most of their time on their sky ships or flying mounts, so unlike the other Na'vi they don't have tree cover or water to protect their skin from the sun. Darker skin would help protect them from sunburns and other sun-related problems (can Na'vi get skin cancer? 🤔)

Another idea I had is that they might have sturdy chests like the Reef People instead of thin chests like the Forest People. Even though Pandora has a different atmospheric content than Earth, I'm assuming there will still be less oxygen available at higher altitudes, so the higher you go the tougher it is to breathe. The Wind Traders could have larger lungs to help them get enough oxygen at higher altitudes, and thus would have larger chests to accommodate their lungs. This would make them look similar to the reef people, who have bigger lungs to hold their breath longer while swimming.

Something else I've thought about is what their tails will look like, since each subgroup has a different tail so far. Reef People have a tadpole like tail for swimming, Forest People have a lion-like tail for balance, and Ash People appear to have hairless, lizard-like tails that could also be good for balance (not sure what the evolutionary reason for Forest people having hair and Ash people being hairless though). I have no idea what a Wind Trader tail might look like, but I imagine it will be similar to Forest and Ash tails. Since losing their balance could mean a long, deadly fall to the ground below, I'm sure having a tail adapted to help with balance would be very useful!!

What other adaptations do you think the Wind Traders could have?

[cyren-myadd]

Do you think the Wind Traders will have any unique adaptations?

We've gotten all this exciting concept art and sneak peeks at the ash people, but we have yet to see a single wind trader. It's got me wondering what they'll look like. Since the Reef People have rudder-like tails and arms adapted for swimming, and Forest People have thin, flexible tails and arms that help keeping balance while climbing, do you think the Wind Traders will have any unique adaptations to help them survive at high altitudes?

One idea I had is that they might have darker skin, maybe a darker shade of blue or even purplish. They seem like they spend most of their time on their sky ships or flying mounts, so unlike the other Na'vi they don't have tree cover or water to protect their skin from the sun. Darker skin would help protect them from sunburns and other sun-related problems (can Na'vi get skin cancer? 🤔)

Another idea I had is that they might have sturdy chests like the Reef People instead of thin chests like the Forest People. Even though Pandora has a different atmospheric content than Earth, I'm assuming there will still be less oxygen available at higher altitudes, so the higher you go the tougher it is to breathe. The Wind Traders could have larger lungs to help them get enough oxygen at higher altitudes, and thus would have larger chests to accommodate their lungs. This would make them look similar to the reef people, who have bigger lungs to hold their breath longer while swimming.

Something else I've thought about is what their tails will look like, since each subgroup has a different tail so far. Reef People have a tadpole like tail for swimming, Forest People have a lion-like tail for balance, and Ash People appear to have hairless, lizard-like tails that could also be good for balance (not sure what the evolutionary reason for Forest people having hair and Ash people being hairless though). I have no idea what a Wind Trader tail might look like, but I imagine it will be similar to Forest and Ash tails. Since losing their balance could mean a long, deadly fall to the ground below, I'm sure having a tail adapted to help with balance would be very useful!!

What other adaptations do you think the Wind Traders could have?

[cyren-myadd]

Quaritch: I got captured by the ash people and they're forcing me to teach them about human battle tactics 🥺🥺🥺

Spider: Oh no... you got captured... by somebody who forced you to teach them your ways... isn't that terrible... whatever did you do to deserve this... 🙄🙄🙄

[cyren-myadd]

This is just my theory, but I believe Spider is wearing that jumpsuit to protect him from the volcanic environment of the Ash People (Mangkwan clan). The Na'vi seem to be resistant to extreme temperatures, but humans are not, so Spider and others need to wear protective gear.

one more posting about avatar but what is the context for spiders jumpsuit in this behind the scenes still?

[cyren-myadd]

IM SCREAMING HELL YEAH!

I took a weekend break from social media and come back to this what a treat!!

WAKE UP AVATAR FANDOM!

New concept art just dropped! And I love all of it. From the closer look we now get at the sail-ships, to Quaritch getting kidnapped liked the LOOSER he is XD

[cyren-myadd]

Omg they're literally

Neytiri and her mama reaching out to and holding hands with each other in moments of discomfort or distress

and years later Neytiri and her daughter doing the same :’)

[cyren-myadd]

[cyren-myadd]

I think the "real" answer is probably that it never occurred to them to rescar him. Tattoos and hairstyles are one thing, but a scar from a traumatic event is something else. I doubt the higher ups would think to "damage" their "weapon" purely for aesthetic purposes.

But I really like your idea that it symbolizes Recom-Quaritch is a different man than the human one. Human-Quaritch got that scar by fighting Pandora, so it symbolizes his aggression towards anything Pandoran that he can't control or profit off of. Recom-Quaritch is unscarred, a blank slate that hasn't decided what it stands for yet.

A few random Avatar thoughts I’ve had recently

I’m been thinking about some things and I just want to put them out and see what everyone else thinks about them

First this is more of a headcanon but I was reading the Avatar cookbook and I kinda just laughed at the R.D.A section. I know the Avatar cookbook is full of the vegan recipes they had on set.I get that. But the R.D.A section reads : they serve up familiar foods with a vegan twist to respect the worlds limited resources. I just don’t buy that. The colonizers and planet destroyers are not respecting shit. So I had the idea that they clone meat. They already have cloning tech down, and cloning meat is something we already have today. It’s just not at a point where it could be mass produced. But by Avatar time? Absolutely. So that’s my headcanon. The R.D.A clones their meat. A really minor thing but I’m sure my fellow writers will agree minor details are just the things you get hung up on.

But now a bigger idea I’ve been thinking about. I’ve been fascinated recently by the physical state of the recoms when they woke up. By that I mean I’ve been thinking a lot about how exactly did they all wake up with their tattoos and hairstyles from their past lives? Because a clone wouldn’t just wake up like that. So my next thought was just oh it would have happened after they were decanted but before they woke up. Except:

You can clearly see they’re decanted like that. And that got me thinking about the state of Jake’s Avatar when it was decanted. I’m thinking that since the Avatar was organial made for Tommy there wasn’t a reason to put Jake’s tattoos on him. But at the bare minimum you’d need something to braid the hair around the neural whip because as we see on baby Neteyam and Kiri, Na’vi aren’t just born with a full braid. It has to be grown out. And yet Jake’s avatar had a perfect braid inside of the pod. So I’m thinking theirs some kind of little bot inside of the pod that’s used to care for the avatars. They’re a million dollars a pop so I’d think you’d want a bot that can do things like blood test or if a clone isn’t forming properly, do minor surgeries control by a doctor. But it can also be used for more aesthetic things as well like hair styling and tattooing so the Avatar driver can just wake up and go without having to mess with too much.

The recoms were obviously made to look as close to their past selves as possible so they wouldn’t “lose themselves” like Jake, Grace, Norm, and the other drivers all did. Z has full sleeves, Quaritch has his military tattoos. If you look closely Lyle’s recom has a faint shadow of hair on his head. So his new body doesn’t have male patterned baldness but his human body did so it was replicated on his clone. The R.D.A was so detailed with all these things - except Quaritch. Because his recom doesn’t have his most noticeable feature, the thing he shows off to Jake in the first movie- his scars. I don’t think it would have been hard to replicate them either. With my “little bot” theory as I’ll call it, you could simply use a laser scalpel to replicate the scars long before the clone is decanted so they have plenty of time to heal. But they didn’t. And I’m really scratching my head as to why?

Is it a visual cue to the audience that he is in fact not the same man as before? Or that this new version of him has the capacity to grow past the sins of his previous life. Did the R.D.A intentionally leave off the scars so he could be “pretty again” even though Quaritch himself said that he liked them? But why would they even care about something like that when the whole purpose of making them look like their human selves is to ground them in that life and make it harder from them to identify with the Na’vi despite looking exactly like them now. They omitted Quaritch’s most distinguished feature for what! 

These are just thoughts kicking around in my head. I really want to know what everyone else thinks so please share your ideas 💙

[cyren-myadd]

so uh do you think the recombinants have human rights? or are we just going to see the rda doing human experiments cause they are “only” copies of people

Heya anon. Interesting question to get out of the blue.

I don't see why recoms would have human rights. Not only are they not "human" and giving them rights would be a slippery slope to giving the Na'vi rights, they are the explicit commercial creation of a private company.

The genre of the Avatar franchsie can be confusing at times due to the optimistic vibes, pretty setting and time spent on exploration with the natives of Pandora, but the human side is extremely rooted in cyberpunk.

The RDA is a company.

Imagine if we discovered a sentient race of underwater aliens on Europa, and the people interracting with them were from SpaceX, on a SpaceX agenda, and not NASA, ESA or JAXA. Worse, since the RDA is all about mining, imagine they were kitted out and working under an executive of Glencore! Shipped by SpaceX...

IDK if the world of Avatar has more info in novelisations, games or comics reguarding the state of laws in space, but I very much think that if people like Quaritch signed a contract to allow the use of his DNA and recorded memories, and the RDA creates recombinants off their own tech at their own price, for their own security team... Then no court of justice has any say in that.

I doubt the RDA's HR department on Pandora will be reporting anything back to earth if the recoms have complaints... By the way, canonically if your cryopod malfunctions during an interstellar trip with the RDA, you die, because they don't keep enough resources on board to let human live the length of the trip, so good luck having any humane law at your back.

On the other hand, I don't understand what you mean by human experiments.

The RDA is not interested in that, and they don't seem to be needed. From the films, we know they want rocks and oil. That's it. They do mining and hunting. They aren't set on Pandora to do human experiments.

A1 already has the ability to use avatars, and those avatars are created on earth and mature over the course of the flight. So clearly the creation of hybrid bodies has been going on for decades (since Grace has been at this for a long while!) and there's no hint of it being human experimentation.

Again: recombinants aren't human. That's what makes them so fascinating. They are a mostly Na'vi and human chimera, with a memory imprint that forces a personality on them. But they can't live natural lives on earth, don't have any legal identity (Quaritch and his men are DEAD. They died. They were clearly labeled KIA so the RDA could make the recom contract kick in).

Even their qualia, the way they experience consciousness, is not human. Humans aren't that size, that build, with tails and swivelling ears. They may remember being a human, but they aren't anymore.

Which creates enormous room for angst and fantastic reasons to rebel and join the locals. The memories of humanity are used as a leash. IDK if they are even copies of people. Q is clearly missing memories outside of what was recorded for him.

I don't think there will be "experiments" on them. I don't see the point. Q & co. are also not used in that way in the story of A2. They are fearsome but easy to dispatch villains for a setting that doesn't tolerate humans anymore.

I don't think that recoms being "remade" would be an experiment or a torture. I think it would be the cold calculations of a cyberpunk mega-corp.

But don't forget there is no process to speed this along. So either the company already made several copies of each recoms, or they'll need years to make new ones. They're also very expensive, so who knows.

I really enjoy the idea of Q going rogue precisely because he's given a new crew of the same recoms to work with and the inhumanity of it finally breaks him. He'd be bound to realise there's more of him in storage and nothing he can do will be meaningful in that way.

[cyren-myadd]

When you put it like that, it makes a lot more sense how everyone let their relationship get as bad as it got.

What do you call that? The boiling frog or something? Where the situation heats up so slowly that no one realizes how bad it is until you're cooking alive and it's too late to hop out? Yeah, they're all a bunch of boiling frogs stuck in the same pot.

"And, of course, Jake is always postponing dealing with this because it's never that bad. Sure, both Neytiri and Spider are uncomfortable around each other but it's not really bad. And talking about it is hard. Banning Spider makes the kids cry. Trying to argue with Neytiri is even worse. So better not to touch it and everything will stay as it is. Which is fine."

You said it perfectly, I bet that is EXACTLY what goes through Jake's head every time there's an incident between Neytiri and Spider. I don't want to upset the kids, but I don't want to upset the wife either, so I'm just gonna do nothing and hope it goes away.

Doing nothing seems to be an unhealthy habit of Jake's, he's done it a lot before. I don't want to tell Quaritch I'm catching feelings, or he'll shut me down, and I don't want to tell the Na'vi the truth or Neytiri will hate me, so I'm gonna do nothing up until the last fucking second and get half the Omaticaya killed because I didn't warn them. I don't want to fight Quaritch so I'm going to uproot my family and run away and do nothing until he shows up at our doorstep and gets my son killed. Let's hope poor Neteyam was enough to teach him that lesson for good and he'll stop being so indecisive before he gets anyone else killed, sheesh!

Nobody talks about Kiri's role in Neytiri and Spider's bad relationship...

I know Neytiri and Spider's relationship has been talked about to death already, but there's one important aspect of it everyone seems to overlook that I want to write down all my thoughts about: Kiri's role.

(Just FYI The High Ground comics are explicitly confirmed to be canon by Avatar's creative team, so please don't try to tell me something's not true because it happened in the comics)

With everything Neytiri has been through, it's understandable that she'd feel uncomfortable with Quaritch's son spending so much time around her children to the point where he starts calling them his "siblings." Contrary to what I've heard others say, Neytiri does not have a "blind hatred" towards Spider. She doesn't want him to be hurt or killed, she just wants him to stay away from her family and mind his own business. From her perspective, an "invader" is acting like he's entitled to being around her family and claiming them as his own, the same family that has been hurt so badly by other "invaders." This perceived entitlement coupled with the fact that he's the son of the guy who thought he was entitled to destroy her homeland is what gives her such strong feelings about Spider compared to the other Na'vi-allied humans.

But is Spider's behavior towards Neytiri's family really entitlement like Neytiri thinks or is it something else? Let's look at why Spider does the things he does:

Why does Spider spend so much time with the Sully kids? Kiri and Lo'ak invite him. From what we see in the movie and the comics, Kiri and Lo'ak don't seem to have any friends before meeting Tsireya and Rotxo, which means Spider is not just their best friend, but their only friend. There is nothing about Spider, Kiri, and Lo'ak's dynamic that implies Spider is the only one seeking them out. They mutually seek each others' company because they all feel like outcasts among their respective species.

Why does Spider call the Sully kids his siblings? Kiri started calling him her brother first. In vol 1 of THG, Kiri tells Spider he's like another brother to her. Shortly after this is when Spider starts referring to the Sully kids as his family. Since Spider has no biological family and a bad relationship with his foster family, it's understandable he would latch onto the people who actually care for him and explicitly say they feel like he's their family member.

Why does Spider insert himself into the Omaticaya? Kiri insists he joins them. in Vol 1 of THG, Spider is present for a Na'vi celebration and Neytiri asks him to leave because he's not a part of their family. Spider is perfectly okay with this and he starts to excuse himself, but Kiri stops him and insists he stay because he is a part of their family. Later, in Vol 2 of THG, the Sullies and the Omaticaya are evacuating to High Camp while Spider's foster family and most of the other humans choose to surrender to the RDA. Spider is initially upset and begs Jake to come with them, but after Jake scolds him, Spider accepts the adults' choice and willingly stays in Hell's Gate, waiting to surrender to the RDA. Kiri, on the other hand, insists Spider come with them to High Camp and goes back for him. This results in Kiri, Lo'ak, and Tuk getting captured by Spider's foster dad and Spider needing to rescue them. In both of these instances, when Spider is told he's unwelcome somewhere, he is okay with it and backs off, but Kiri is the one who fights for him to stay. The only instance where Spider insists he has a right to stay of his own volition is when Jake asks him to turn himself into the RDA soldiers hunting them after Spider helped the Sully kids escape his foster father. Since the RDA likely would've imprisoned, tortured, or even killed Spider for helping the valuable hostages escape, Spider's insistence he stay with the Sullies is completely understandable.

Why does Spider paint himself blue and emulate the Na'vi lifestyle? Kiri again. The only time we see Spider applying his stripes on screen, Kiri is right there helping him. From this we can assume that Kiri and possibly also Lo'ak regularly help Spider apply his stripes since he wouldn't be able to paint his back without help. And while we don't have exact information on when Spider started wearing a loincloth and behaving like a Na'vi, I think we can safely assume Kiri and her siblings are the ones who encouraged this behavior.

After analyzing the origins of what Neytiri perceives as "entitlement," it becomes clear it's not really entitlement at all. Spider never does something he has not been "invited" to do by Kiri or Lo'ak. Spider is not trying to cross any boundaries and he's not trying to hurt anyone; he's just a lonely orphan who has latched onto the only people who show him real care.

From Spider's perspective, Neytiri hates him for no reason other than his dad. In actuality, Neytiri's strong feelings aren't just about who is dad is, but moreso about the way he behaves on top of who his dad is. Neytiri doesn't have a "blind hatred" for him like Spider believes, but she has a deep trauma-rooted discomfort with his proximity to her family in the context of his heritage, and this discomfort makes her lash out at him. But of course Spider doesn't understand this because he's A. a teenage boy with limited emotional intelligence and B. has no reason to think there's anything wrong with his behavior because Kiri and Lo'ak encourage it so enthusiastically. With Spider's limited understanding, it makes sense that he chalks up Neytiri's behavior as "she hates me!"

So we have these two wildly different perspectives. Neytiri views Spider as an entitled invader and she doesn't understand why he can't just leave her family alone, and Spider views Neytiri as a cruel woman who judges him for his heritage and he can't understand why she can't just let him hang out with his "siblings" in peace. When these two different perspectives clash, it gets ugly, and leads to scenes like the time Neytiri lunged at Spider (to attack him? shake him? it's unclear) and Spider yelling at Neytiri and blaming her for his situation (which is really Quaritch's fault for making his postpartum mother fight).

Then we have Kiri's perspective. Kiri loves her mother and her best friend, but doesn't seem to understand why her mom doesn't want her best friend around and she also doesn't seem to understand why her best friend thinks her mom hates him. In vol 1 of THG, she even tells Spider that Neytiri loves him. Ironically, even though Kiri clearly wants her mom and her best friend to get along, she is inadvertently the source of most of their issues. In all the instances where Spider's behavior makes Neytiri upset, we can trace the behavior back to Kiri as outlined in the bullet points above. The more Kiri pushes for Spider to stay close, the more it triggers Neytiri trauma, the more Neytiri lashes out Spider, the more Spider thinks she hates him, and the closer Kiri gets to Spider to comfort him and try and prove him wrong. It's a vicious cycle.

And just to be clear, I'm not trying to say Kiri is at fault for Neytiri and Spider's relationship. Kiri and Spider are just kids with little understanding of the trauma Neytiri has been through. They just know they enjoy spending time with each other, and neither of them fully understand why it makes Neytiri so upset. Neytiri, on the other hand, is not a kid... she is not responsible for her trauma and for her negative feelings towards Spider, but she is responsible for her behavior towards him.

The one thing I don't understand is why neither Neytiri nor Jake nipped Kiri's behavior in the bud before it got to the point where it is now. If Kiri keeps calling Spider her brother and insisting he stay for family celebrations, and it's obviously very upsetting to Neytiri, why did neither of her parents sit her down and let her know its inappropriate? Spider was clearly okay with being left out of the events. If they'd talked about it with Kiri, they would've avoided all that strife in the first place. Hell, Spider wouldn't even be around them anymore because he would've surrendered to the RDA and lived in Bridgehead if not for Kiri insisting he come with them!

And actually, why didn't they stop the kids from spending so much time together in the first place? Neytiri was telling Jake she didn't like Spider around her kids since they were very little. Why did they continue to let them play together if it made her so uncomfortable? Was Jake letting it happen behind her back? Were the kids sneaking away to play with Spider? Did Neytiri let it happen because she thought they would grow out of it or something? At that age, parents have a lot of control over their kids lives, and I don't understand why Neytiri didn't just redirect her kids to play with anyone other than Spider if it upset her so much. In THG, Neytiri threatened to ban Spider from seeing Kiri, but she did it way too late. The kids were teenagers at that point and already saw each other as family, so if she tried to separate them they would've just snuck out and seen each other anyway. If Neytiri is okay with putting a "ban" on Spider, why did she wait until they were teens and much more difficult to control to do so?

I know the "real" answer is because James Cameron wants ✨DRAMA✨ but I'm wondering if there's an in-universe explanation cause it just doesn't make sense to me. I guess the most realistic answer is that Jake let it happen knowing full well Neytiri didn't like it, but he let it slide anyway because he didn't want to say no to the kids. Jake had two choices. He could've A. honored Neytiri's wishes and separated the children before they bonded or B. sat down with Neytiri and let her know Spider is here to stay and that she can't lash out at him. Either choice would've resulted in a much better outcome for everyone involved, but then again, it would've had a lot less drama so I understand why the writers didn't have that happen instead. Actually, now that I'm typing it out, it is pretty in character for Jake to ignore a giant problem right in front of him and hope it'll go away on it's own (that's how we lost Hometree, Eytukan, and Neteyam rip). I guess we're going to see this situation blow up in Jake's face in Avatar 3, just like his other ignore-the-problem-and-hope-it-goes-away situations did. I just hope that this situation will have a better outcome for everyone involved.

It just frustrates me because I feel like all this could've been resolved years ago if Jake and Neytiri had sat Kiri and Spider down and had a discussion about boundaries, but there's too much bad blood between Neytiri and Spider for an easy resolution now...

Anyways, if you made it this far, thanks for reading, didn't mean to turn this into a whole essay lol. Please share your thoughts with me if you have any!

[cyren-myadd]

Nobody talks about Kiri's role in Neytiri and Spider's bad relationship...

I know Neytiri and Spider's relationship has been talked about to death already, but there's one important aspect of it everyone seems to overlook that I want to write down all my thoughts about: Kiri's role.

(Just FYI The High Ground comics are explicitly confirmed to be canon by Avatar's creative team, so please don't try to tell me something's not true because it happened in the comics)

With everything Neytiri has been through, it's understandable that she'd feel uncomfortable with Quaritch's son spending so much time around her children to the point where he starts calling them his "siblings." Contrary to what I've heard others say, Neytiri does not have a "blind hatred" towards Spider. She doesn't want him to be hurt or killed, she just wants him to stay away from her family and mind his own business. From her perspective, an "invader" is acting like he's entitled to being around her family and claiming them as his own, the same family that has been hurt so badly by other "invaders." This perceived entitlement coupled with the fact that he's the son of the guy who thought he was entitled to destroy her homeland is what gives her such strong feelings about Spider compared to the other Na'vi-allied humans.

But is Spider's behavior towards Neytiri's family really entitlement like Neytiri thinks or is it something else? Let's look at why Spider does the things he does:

Why does Spider spend so much time with the Sully kids? Kiri and Lo'ak invite him. From what we see in the movie and the comics, Kiri and Lo'ak don't seem to have any friends before meeting Tsireya and Rotxo, which means Spider is not just their best friend, but their only friend. There is nothing about Spider, Kiri, and Lo'ak's dynamic that implies Spider is the only one seeking them out. They mutually seek each others' company because they all feel like outcasts among their respective species.

Why does Spider call the Sully kids his siblings? Kiri started calling him her brother first. In vol 1 of THG, Kiri tells Spider he's like another brother to her. Shortly after this is when Spider starts referring to the Sully kids as his family. Since Spider has no biological family and a bad relationship with his foster family, it's understandable he would latch onto the people who actually care for him and explicitly say they feel like he's their family member.

Why does Spider insert himself into the Omaticaya? Kiri insists he joins them. in Vol 1 of THG, Spider is present for a Na'vi celebration and Neytiri asks him to leave because he's not a part of their family. Spider is perfectly okay with this and he starts to excuse himself, but Kiri stops him and insists he stay because he is a part of their family. Later, in Vol 2 of THG, the Sullies and the Omaticaya are evacuating to High Camp while Spider's foster family and most of the other humans choose to surrender to the RDA. Spider is initially upset and begs Jake to come with them, but after Jake scolds him, Spider accepts the adults' choice and willingly stays in Hell's Gate, waiting to surrender to the RDA. Kiri, on the other hand, insists Spider come with them to High Camp and goes back for him. This results in Kiri, Lo'ak, and Tuk getting captured by Spider's foster dad and Spider needing to rescue them. In both of these instances, when Spider is told he's unwelcome somewhere, he is okay with it and backs off, but Kiri is the one who fights for him to stay. The only instance where Spider insists he has a right to stay of his own volition is when Jake asks him to turn himself into the RDA soldiers hunting them after Spider helped the Sully kids escape his foster father. Since the RDA likely would've imprisoned, tortured, or even killed Spider for helping the valuable hostages escape, Spider's insistence he stay with the Sullies is completely understandable.

Why does Spider paint himself blue and emulate the Na'vi lifestyle? Kiri again. The only time we see Spider applying his stripes on screen, Kiri is right there helping him. From this we can assume that Kiri and possibly also Lo'ak regularly help Spider apply his stripes since he wouldn't be able to paint his back without help. And while we don't have exact information on when Spider started wearing a loincloth and behaving like a Na'vi, I think we can safely assume Kiri and her siblings are the ones who encouraged this behavior.

After analyzing the origins of what Neytiri perceives as "entitlement," it becomes clear it's not really entitlement at all. Spider never does something he has not been "invited" to do by Kiri or Lo'ak. Spider is not trying to cross any boundaries and he's not trying to hurt anyone; he's just a lonely orphan who has latched onto the only people who show him real care.

From Spider's perspective, Neytiri hates him for no reason other than his dad. In actuality, Neytiri's strong feelings aren't just about who is dad is, but moreso about the way he behaves on top of who his dad is. Neytiri doesn't have a "blind hatred" for him like Spider believes, but she has a deep trauma-rooted discomfort with his proximity to her family in the context of his heritage, and this discomfort makes her lash out at him. But of course Spider doesn't understand this because he's A. a teenage boy with limited emotional intelligence and B. has no reason to think there's anything wrong with his behavior because Kiri and Lo'ak encourage it so enthusiastically. With Spider's limited understanding, it makes sense that he chalks up Neytiri's behavior as "she hates me!"

So we have these two wildly different perspectives. Neytiri views Spider as an entitled invader and she doesn't understand why he can't just leave her family alone, and Spider views Neytiri as a cruel woman who judges him for his heritage and he can't understand why she can't just let him hang out with his "siblings" in peace. When these two different perspectives clash, it gets ugly, and leads to scenes like the time Neytiri lunged at Spider (to attack him? shake him? it's unclear) and Spider yelling at Neytiri and blaming her for his situation (which is really Quaritch's fault for making his postpartum mother fight).

Then we have Kiri's perspective. Kiri loves her mother and her best friend, but doesn't seem to understand why her mom doesn't want her best friend around and she also doesn't seem to understand why her best friend thinks her mom hates him. In vol 1 of THG, she even tells Spider that Neytiri loves him. Ironically, even though Kiri clearly wants her mom and her best friend to get along, she is inadvertently the source of most of their issues. In all the instances where Spider's behavior makes Neytiri upset, we can trace the behavior back to Kiri as outlined in the bullet points above. The more Kiri pushes for Spider to stay close, the more it triggers Neytiri trauma, the more Neytiri lashes out Spider, the more Spider thinks she hates him, and the closer Kiri gets to Spider to comfort him and try and prove him wrong. It's a vicious cycle.

And just to be clear, I'm not trying to say Kiri is at fault for Neytiri and Spider's relationship. Kiri and Spider are just kids with little understanding of the trauma Neytiri has been through. They just know they enjoy spending time with each other, and neither of them fully understand why it makes Neytiri so upset. Neytiri, on the other hand, is not a kid... she is not responsible for her trauma and for her negative feelings towards Spider, but she is responsible for her behavior towards him.

The one thing I don't understand is why neither Neytiri nor Jake nipped Kiri's behavior in the bud before it got to the point where it is now. If Kiri keeps calling Spider her brother and insisting he stay for family celebrations, and it's obviously very upsetting to Neytiri, why did neither of her parents sit her down and let her know its inappropriate? Spider was clearly okay with being left out of the events. If they'd talked about it with Kiri, they would've avoided all that strife in the first place. Hell, Spider wouldn't even be around them anymore because he would've surrendered to the RDA and lived in Bridgehead if not for Kiri insisting he come with them!

And actually, why didn't they stop the kids from spending so much time together in the first place? Neytiri was telling Jake she didn't like Spider around her kids since they were very little. Why did they continue to let them play together if it made her so uncomfortable? Was Jake letting it happen behind her back? Were the kids sneaking away to play with Spider? Did Neytiri let it happen because she thought they would grow out of it or something? At that age, parents have a lot of control over their kids lives, and I don't understand why Neytiri didn't just redirect her kids to play with anyone other than Spider if it upset her so much. In THG, Neytiri threatened to ban Spider from seeing Kiri, but she did it way too late. The kids were teenagers at that point and already saw each other as family, so if she tried to separate them they would've just snuck out and seen each other anyway. If Neytiri is okay with putting a "ban" on Spider, why did she wait until they were teens and much more difficult to control to do so?

I know the "real" answer is because James Cameron wants ✨DRAMA✨ but I'm wondering if there's an in-universe explanation cause it just doesn't make sense to me. I guess the most realistic answer is that Jake let it happen knowing full well Neytiri didn't like it, but he let it slide anyway because he didn't want to say no to the kids. Jake had two choices. He could've A. honored Neytiri's wishes and separated the children before they bonded or B. sat down with Neytiri and let her know Spider is here to stay and that she can't lash out at him. Either choice would've resulted in a much better outcome for everyone involved, but then again, it would've had a lot less drama so I understand why the writers didn't have that happen instead. Actually, now that I'm typing it out, it is pretty in character for Jake to ignore a giant problem right in front of him and hope it'll go away on it's own (that's how we lost Hometree, Eytukan, and Neteyam rip). I guess we're going to see this situation blow up in Jake's face in Avatar 3, just like his other ignore-the-problem-and-hope-it-goes-away situations did. I just hope that this situation will have a better outcome for everyone involved.

It just frustrates me because I feel like all this could've been resolved years ago if Jake and Neytiri had sat Kiri and Spider down and had a discussion about boundaries, but there's too much bad blood between Neytiri and Spider for an easy resolution now...

Anyways, if you made it this far, thanks for reading, didn't mean to turn this into a whole essay lol. Please share your thoughts with me if you have any!