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ramsay the trash man wishes to sell you a knife

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scarmander said: Alright, he’s the heir, how does he get the throne without her armies?

dakota20003 said: – It’s not his by right. Not anymore. Robert Baratheon changed the game by overthrowing the regime and didn’t get it solely by name. He took it by conquest and rebellion.

Doesn’t Dany explicitly say (and I believe I might even be quoting here) “if that’s true than you are the heir to the Seven Kingdoms”?

Regardless, to both of you, I say: Wouldn’t it be the height of hypocrisy for Dany, who has continuously referred to Robert Baratheon throughout the show as “the Usurper”, and has presented herself as the rightful heir of King Viserys, who became the heir to the throne after the death of their brother Rhaegar and his son Aegon and who became rightful king after the death of their father Aerys, and as a restoration of the rightful ruling dynasty, to say “actually, forget all that, I am the rightful ruler by the right of conquest” when presented with evidence that she is not the rightful heir?

Yes, Dany has always claimed that she would take Westeros with fire and blood if she had to, but only because it was her birthright, and none would deny her her birthright. She never said that she would take Westeros just because she has the military power to be able to do so.

If Jon’s story is true (and we the viewers know that it is), then his claim is stronger than Dany’s claim is based upon the very logic that Dany bases her claim. Whether or not he is able or even willing to press that claim is immaterial.

As far as the show is concerned, by all the laws of gods and men (even the laws of men created by the Baratheons, who implicitly allowed claims through a woman by justifying Robert’s crown on that of his great-grandfather), Jon Snow is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Hell, even by the absolute succession laws of Dorne, the son of the first son comes before the first daughter.

In the books, if Dany learns of Jon’s true parentage, she might decide that the legitimate daughter of a king comes before the illegitimate son of the king’s deceased eldest son, and that her claim is still stronger. That is actually a perfectly valid interpretation of the law (assuming we’re keeping the agnatic-cognatic succession of the Baratheon’s, because under the strict agnatic succession of Targaryen law she has no claim at all, which is a reasonable assumption based on the fact Book!Dany says she has a claim). After the death of Lord Halys Hornwood and his heir Daryn, in the books, the second son of Halys’ sister Berena is considered as a possible successor to the lands and titles of House Hornwood, even though Halys had a bastard son.

But in the show, it is explicitly said that Jon is a legitimate son of Rhaegar and his second wife Lyanna. Jon’s rightful place in the line of succession, after Rhaegar’s death, is between Aerys and Viserys. And even by Dany’s reckoning, Viserys came before her in the line of succession. If the truth of Jon’s parentage makes Viserys a false king, what does that make her?

The fact that Dany’s first response to learning Jon is secretly the legitimate son of the brother she was raised to idolize, who she thought had both been murdered by the man who usurped the Iron Throne from her family, is to all but accuse him of lying in an attempt to claim her throne is a perfect microcosm of the problems with Dany’s actions in Season 7.

I could accept that she was in disbelief the story was true because its a very hard to believe story, if it hadn’t come from someone whose visions she’d already shown to be taking as fact, and if Jon hadn’t spent the better part of the last two seasons trying to avoid obtaining fancy titles and who time and time again has shown that he doesn’t want to be a king, but if Dany is shown the proof (such as the diary Sam found) and accepts that Jon is Aegon Targaryen, last surviving legitimate child of Rhaegar Targaryen, and continues to claim the throne is her right, she will have proven herself as nothing more than power hungry. If she accepts that Jon is Rhaegar’s legitimate son, then she must also accept that he is before her in the line of succession to the Iron Throne by all the laws of gods and men that she has been using to justify her claim since the end of season 1.

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Also, they can just get married. Problem fucking solved. They’re in twue wuv, it’d solve the problem of Jon relinquishing his crown, and it’s pretty much the best political match for Dany’s attempt to take the Iron Throne, so why has it not even been mentioned yet? They should’ve been married, like... two or three episodes ago. He should’ve come home not having bent the knee or given up the title King in the North, but having gained the title King of Westeros.

The fact that Dany’s first response to learning Jon is secretly the legitimate son of the brother she was raised to idolize, who she thought had both been murdered by the man who usurped the Iron Throne from her family, is to all but accuse him of lying in an attempt to claim her throne is a perfect microcosm of the problems with Dany’s actions in Season 7.

I could accept that she was in disbelief the story was true because its a very hard to believe story, if it hadn’t come from someone whose visions she’d already shown to be taking as fact, and if Jon hadn’t spent the better part of the last two seasons trying to avoid obtaining fancy titles and who time and time again has shown that he doesn’t want to be a king, but if Dany is shown the proof (such as the diary Sam found) and accepts that Jon is Aegon Targaryen, last surviving legitimate child of Rhaegar Targaryen, and continues to claim the throne is her right, she will have proven herself as nothing more than power hungry. If she accepts that Jon is Rhaegar’s legitimate son, then she must also accept that he is before her in the line of succession to the Iron Throne by all the laws of gods and men that she has been using to justify her claim since the end of season 1.

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... Shit, now I feel like an idiot for wondering what would compel someone to write all that Stannis/Sansa and Tywin/Sansa on Ao3.

Jonsa as a cousin marriage might be a genuine reason why some dislike the ship, but for many antis, it’s just an excuse. They would hate Jonsa if they were strangers. Because Jon isn’t gross, unattractive, abusive, toxic, or decades older, so there’s no way he can humble her a few pegs.

It’s why the few times they ever talk of Harry the Heir, an attractive highborn boy Sansa’s age, they treat him as an abusive scumbag when he’s really just kind of a sexist teen boy who did something S*ndor, Tyr*on and Pet*r never did: apologized for his rudeness.

It’s why they’re so violently opposed to Gendsa. Gendry isn’t highborn or rich, but he also isn’t significantly older and has none of his dad’s abusive tendencies.

It’s why they’re strangely silent about the fact that Sansa was almost engaged to her maternal cousin, Sweetrobin. That’s cousin marriage, but they aren’t bothered by it.

It’s why they’re so insistent she needs one of those grown men to settle down with. Sansa has a bad attitude that needs to be fixed, that can only be fixed by marrying her to a brutally honest man who will break her of her stupid, annoying, childish innocence. Who she in turn, will “fix”- but not because these men are toxic. Because they’re hurting, broken men who need a stupid, naive young lady’s love to calm him down and brighten his life like a lemon scented candle.

Only, however, after she learns her lesson about being stupid to want a healthy, sweet romance, or being so conceited as to enjoy the beauty of handsome men when she’s only good for her beauty being lusted after, since sadly she’s too stupid and useless to be good for much else.

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love-deejay said: That’s one way of interpreting her response. Another way might be that she’s reeling from the announcement that her entire life’s ambition has been for nothing. Emilia Clarke herself explained the situation from Daenerys’ POV. It’s not about power. It’s about her life’s purpose being removed from her. And by someone she loves. I also don’t think she’s been shown enough “proof” of Bran’s seeing abilities. She just met the guy she hasn’t seen any proof that his vision is true.

That might be how Clarke acted the scene, but I don’t think that’s what the motivation behind the scene the writers wrote. If it was, her immediate response wouldn’t have been practically accusing him of conspiring to fabricate a claim to the Iron Throne.

dakota20003 said: They both know Jon doesn’t want to be a ruler, that isn’t the root of this issue. Although, it does make it more annoying. All you can ever say is she’s “power hungry”…yet here she is on a power hungry detour sacrificing her men - putting their lives on the line for a country & its ppl that don’t even want them there - her resources, lost Viserion for the North and with their attitude lately, I almost want her to bail on their ungrateful asses.

And that’s what makes it all the more ridiculous that her response was “muh claims”. Because whether or not she trusts his vision of Bran (I concede that its possible she doesn’t believe Bran had this vision, but I don’t buy that she doesn’t believe Bran has some power of visions, because they’ve been using him to monitor the Night King and such, and she’s been accepting those), and even if it’s true, she knows that Jon doesn’t want the throne, even if its his by right.

The fact that Dany’s first response to learning Jon is secretly the legitimate son of the brother she was raised to idolize, who she thought had both been murdered by the man who usurped the Iron Throne from her family, is to all but accuse him of lying in an attempt to claim her throne is a perfect microcosm of the problems with Dany’s actions in Season 7.

I could accept that she was in disbelief the story was true because its a very hard to believe story, if it hadn’t come from someone whose visions she’d already shown to be taking as fact, and if Jon hadn’t spent the better part of the last two seasons trying to avoid obtaining fancy titles and who time and time again has shown that he doesn’t want to be a king, but if Dany is shown the proof (such as the diary Sam found) and accepts that Jon is Aegon Targaryen, last surviving legitimate child of Rhaegar Targaryen, and continues to claim the throne is her right, she will have proven herself as nothing more than power hungry. If she accepts that Jon is Rhaegar’s legitimate son, then she must also accept that he is before her in the line of succession to the Iron Throne by all the laws of gods and men that she has been using to justify her claim since the end of season 1.

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I bought my wife some whores so she’d like me more, and then after she had thoroughly used them, I told her she needs Jesus.

To get her to like me more.

Both attempts were successful.

CRUSADER KINGS 2.

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Alfie Allen really doesn’t get enough credit as an actor.

You don’t have to choose. You’re a Greyjoy and you’re a Stark.

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When Dany says something to the effect of “we’re two women who have ruled, and done a damn fine job of it, despite the men who don’t like it”, I kind of wish Sansa had said “one of us has, at least”. I don’t like what the show did with Sansa, but she is at the very least a competent administrator. Dany’s not an administrator. She’s a queen.

Though I guess that would’ve been treason, which is why it only looked like Sansa was thinking it.

Chrys Watches Got [x] / requests for individuals [x]

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Tell that to Petyr telling Sansa he’ll make Sansa Wardeness of the North. No, seriously, please. Tell him they’re different titles. Someone has to.

Wardeness.

Urgh.

Also, does no one on the show get what “Warden” titles mean?

They are not landed titles but military titles that essentially mean that the person controls your domain’s armies in the North/South/East/West whatever. It is not the same thing as being a Lord Paramount. Yes, traditionally certain Lords Paramount held those titles (Westerland/Lannisters - Wardens of the West, The Reach/Tyrells - South, The North/Starks - North, and The Vale/Arryns - East) but it is NOT the same thing as being Lord of the North or Vale or whatever. Examples of what I am talking about:

The Martells are the Princes/Lords Paramount of Dorne, the Tullys are the LP’s of the Riverlands, the Baratheons LP’s of the Stormlands, the Greyjoys LP’s of the Iron Islands - they have no Warden titles.

Robert Baratheon named Jaime Lannister Warden of the East after Jon Arryn’s death, but that didn’t make Jaime Lord of the Eyrie/Vale.

Robb Stark named the Blackfish Warden of the Southern Marshes during his campaign. Blackfish has never held lands.

So Jon is not really Lord of the North at all. He’s the Chief General/military advisor of Dany’s war front in the North. This IS an important distinction. He’s not Lord Paramount of the North now that he dethroned himself, Sansa is.

I think the show has some real confusion over this. As do the characters and audience. That’s why Sansa, with all her politicking, is 100% “staying in her lane”. She’s not focusing on the combat itself as much because that is Jon’s job now. Sansa is responsible for making sure that the armies he’s commanding are fed/armed/armored and that as many people are fed and clothed and sheltered as possible and that her holdfasts are supplied. A job which basically enables Jon’s work. Because without it, all Jon is commanding is a bunch of starving frostbite leaving bloody footprints. Everyone dies horribly if Sansa doesn’t do her job. And that job requires cooperation from all her lords, who she is also responsible for. She is the liege of the Lords of the North (not the chief liege, as that is Dany for now, but Dany is completely incapable by virtue of education and workload to handle this). A huge thing among the Northern lords is independence. That has been proven multiple times now. They want to fight for a future without an Iron Throne. This is also why what Sansa says to Dany matters. Her position is a logistical nightmare but she is every bit as attuned to the conflict at hand as anyone else. If Dany can still worry about a future on the IT, then Sansa has every justification to care about Northern Independence. Which is not a job she asked for, by the by. It was given to her by Jon and superglued to her when he made a pledge to Daenerys.

Sansa is Lord of the North, Head of her own court. Jon is Warden of the North, a part of Dany’s court. These positions are not interchangeable.

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The fact that Dany’s first response to learning Jon is secretly the legitimate son of the brother she was raised to idolize, who she thought had both been murdered by the man who usurped the Iron Throne from her family, is to all but accuse him of lying in an attempt to claim her throne is a perfect microcosm of the problems with Dany’s actions in Season 7.

I could accept that she was in disbelief the story was true because its a very hard to believe story, if it hadn’t come from someone whose visions she’d already shown to be taking as fact, and if Jon hadn’t spent the better part of the last two seasons trying to avoid obtaining fancy titles and who time and time again has shown that he doesn’t want to be a king, but if Dany is shown the proof (such as the diary Sam found) and accepts that Jon is Aegon Targaryen, last surviving legitimate child of Rhaegar Targaryen, and continues to claim the throne is her right, she will have proven herself as nothing more than power hungry. If she accepts that Jon is Rhaegar’s legitimate son, then she must also accept that he is before her in the line of succession to the Iron Throne by all the laws of gods and men that she has been using to justify her claim since the end of season 1.

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I mean, are there not websites that do that very thing...?

Let me present you with a hypothetical situation. Say there were a group of people who were fans of Avatar the Last Airbender, who really hated the show Legend of Korra and thought it betrayed the themes and characters of the original. These people then devoted a podcast, blog, website, and multiple years of their lives to viciously mocking and belittling literally every single aspect of The Legend of Korra, as well as its fans and creators. Would you not think that was a little bit weird?

I get what you’re going for, but that hypothetical rather ignores GoT being the most critically acclaimed and one of the most viewed shows on television, despite having implications and messaging that is pretty racist, sexist, ableist, and homophobic, revolving around completely nonsensical plots to boot. If it was just a bad adaptation (also in this case, it’s a direct adaption) that betrayed themes, I think I would have kept complaints to westeros.org.

Also, okay…I’m a little bit weird. You got me there, Dr. Science. 

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Hm... It could be that they were just mimicking heterosexual kissing (with the “boy” being the one initiating it, because Westeros), but yeah, it does seem like the point was about escalation.

However, I think the quote about her virginity is a lot simpler: She gave it to one of them, and then had sex with the other two, and each time she lied and said it was her first time, so each guy would think she was her first.

It seemed as if there was at least one crazy sixway (perhaps when they were at the brothel with the fool, when she first introduced her male and female friends), but... yeah. I think she was just lied to the second and third guys, and refused to say who was her actual first, because she wanted to be scandalous about it during the trial (and, possibly, avoid a harsher punishment for the one who she did fuck first, but I’m not sure how successful that would’ve been).

Important Fire and Blood Discourse

Did Saera Targaryen make the eight?

Furthermore, if she did, did she only make the eight if her lovers of both genders are counted together, or did she still make the eight even if lovers of only one gender are counted at a time?

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I’m a little hesitant to add Turnbury and Moore without reading the books myself, since from what little I’ve found online she just did a bit of kissing and maaaaybe some heavy petting.

Anyone got quotes saying they did anything more?

Important Fire and Blood Discourse

Did Saera Targaryen make the eight?

Furthermore, if she did, did she only make the eight if her lovers of both genders are counted together, or did she still make the eight even if lovers of only one gender are counted at a time?

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CKII has the best emergent storytelling

So I think I’m going to abandon my current run so I can actually record the next one, but so far King Martín of Asturias has had a very eventful life.

Now King Martín was a very attractive man, not to mention a genius and a king, so the ladies were throwing themselves at him. Since his betrothed was only 12 he thought to himself, sure, I can take one of them as my lover until I finally get married. Come to find out, the woman he slept with was the wife of the the very gifted physician he had just invited to court from a foreign country. As he didn’t want to lose the man’s respect, he attempted to break off the affair, but it was too late! His lover was pregnant and the court physician found out King Martín was the father. Oops. So the court physician HATES his guts. Surprisingly this didn’t effect his level of care, since he actually did a remarkable job at treating the kings various ills. But. When the King finally did marry his Byzantine princess, the physician was ready.

See, due to his high learning, the king had also appointed the physician as Court Chaplin. (The King’s council was very meritocratic that way). So during his job to hunt apostates he accused the recently converted Queen! Forcing the King to decide in front of the entire court whether or not to burn his wife at the stake. By sparing her, he set a dangerous precedent of mercy towards infidels and lost standing with the clergy, but he maintained his alliance with the Byzantines.

The King did break off his affair with the physician’s wife once he was married, and intended fully to never stray. But then. He saw HER.

I made King Martín in the ruler designer so naturally he was amazing, but here was a woman who could actually be his match! Attractive and smart, she was perfect. He had to have her.

So King Martín took her as his lover. Their first child, Fernando, was an attractive genius, and he was legitimized, baptized by the Pope, and named the heir above any of his other natural-born or bastard children.

Eventually the old Basillus of the Byzantine Empire died, and with him, the Byzantine alliance. King Martín saw his chance. He would have his wife disposed of and marry his lover!

Except the woman wouldn’t die. She survived seven assassination attempts, and her pregancies kept forcing King Martín to delay his plans.

Eventually, luckily, he was finally able to poison his wife and no one was the wiser. He married his lover Onecca straight away and they have lived happily together since.

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I think it's generally acknowledged now that Jaime and Cercei are mutually abusive to each other, but do you think there is an imbalance of how committed they are to each other? It always seemed like Jaime was very willing to give up pretty much everything to be with Cercei (not that that's a good thing) but like you said, Cercei schemed to have Jaime on the Kingsguard while she married Rhaegar. I can't help but feel that Cercei only ever wanted Jaime as a side piece, even if she loved him?

Yeah, it’s one of the forms Cersei’s abuse of Jaime takes, continually calling on him to prove how much he wants her, without willingness to reciprocally make the same big gestures. “Is it a rock you want? Or me?” and all.

“I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn’t we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it’s me you want. We’ll have our own wedding feast, and make another son in place of Joffrey.”

She drew back. “That’s not funny.” “Do you hear me chuckling?”

“Did you leave your wits at Riverrun?” Her voice had an edge to it. “Tommen’s throne derives from Robert, you know that.”

“He’ll have Casterly Rock, isn’t that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you.”

- Jaime VII, ASoS

Putting aside the fact that there’s no way Jaime’s fantasy as expressed here happens and Cersei knows it, this is a key moment in the deterioration of their relationship. From his perspective, Jaime asked her “Is it a crown you want? Or me?”, and she’s answered, “a crown.”

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I thought this post was going to be about Allister Thorne’s failure to teach Ghost how to dance.

I would just like to take this opportunity to throw a message in a bottle out into the void, and it is this:

Ghost dancing is my fav, and I have never seen fanart of Jenny of Oldstones dancing with her ghost!prince in the charred ruins of Summerhall, and this deficit saddens me.

“High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts …”

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Scarab finger ring made from amethyst, Egypt 1981–1802 B.C.[575x507]