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bunysliper · 3 months ago

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So I have a genuine question. How do you think Satine relocated large swaths of the population of Mandalore that chose not to conform to her beliefs to a moon and made sure they couldn't come back to Mandalore and their homes en masse? It seems like that would be pretty hard to do peacefully.

Ah, but that’s just the thing - we have no indication, canon, Legends or otherwise, that they couldn’t come back. See, the thing with the whole Mandalore situation and what Satine did and didn’t do that is so tricky is that much of what we know come from very unreliable narrators, namely Almec and Vizsla, not Satine herself.

(Buckle up, it’s long because I’ll defend Satine with my dying breath. Press j to skip.)

Almec calls it an “exile,” but Almec is already lying through his teeth at that point, because he’s interested in protecting Mandalore’s autonomy, not in telling Obi-Wan the truth. How do we know he’s lying? Well, he says “all of [their] warriors died out years ago”, which is complete bullshit, because he himself still has his old armor by S7, because Satine’s reform couldn’t have happened more than twenty years ago (which is far too little time for a big group adults to die out), because the Protectors are all still around and kicking, because the Wrens still live in Krownest (more on that later), because Concord Dawn still had warriors on it (Rako Hardeen), and because, in that same episode, we see that Pre Vizsla has an armored guard that Satine is aware of. So, warriors all around. Almec is a lying ass.

Now, here’s what Satine has to say about Concordia, to Obi-Wan (s2ep12):

SATINE: The Concordian moon is a province with its own governor. You'll need me to escort you.

OBI-WAN: That won't be necessary.

SATINE: Actually, it will. You won't make much progress without me there, especially since you've just been involved with the death of a Concordian.

Then later:

SATINE: Thank you, Governor Vizsla. May I present Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, representing the Jedi Council. Governor Vizsla is one of the officials I spoke of.

And finally:

SATINE (TO OBI-WAN): Remember that you are here under my protection. Please try not to cause problems where none yet exist.

I would say that these exchanges indicate she respects Vizsla’s leadership and handles this like a normal diplomatic situation. She offers Obi-Wan her protection, but at no point does she imply that she has the power or authority to just tell Vizsla what to do. In fact, the she says “a province with its own governor,” which points toward relatively great autonomy. It’s confirmed by the fact that Satine had no idea the mining facilities were operational again - which would be pretty hard to miss, if she’d set up any form of oversight, considering Obi-Wan finds them within an hour of being there.

Still about her keeping the people of Concordia from coming back to Mandalore... The very fact that this episode starts because a Death Watch terrorist attacked Republic transports and that another one bombs a square in Sundari, but that at no point any mention is made of maybe tightening security around Concordia, makes me think there is no security around Concordia preventing anyone from moving around. (Satine says they tracked down the Death Watch “hooligans” to Concordia, not that they were immediately suspicious of the nasty meany people who don’t agree with her rules and that they immediately went to check it out. She in fact completely trusts the Concordians, which a politically savvy person would never do if they were in fact exiled, and it’s proven by the fact that she thinks she’s on friendly terms with Vizsla).

(We also have indications that weapons were not forbidden on Mandalore. In fact, they’re only forbidden to offworlders after Obi-Wan’s visit.

ALMEC (to ANAKIN and AHSOKA): Because of Master Kenobi's recent visit and the trouble that followed, no offworlders may carry weapons on Mandalore.

Almec says this in front of Satine (s3ep6) - when his discussion with Obi-Wan regarding the status of Concordia was not in her presence - and in front of the cadets, all of whom could invalidate his claim if he was lying again. Anyway, offworlders and Mandalorians were allowed weapons on Mandalore before Obi-Wan’s stunt with Death Watch. So again - very loose restrictions.)

But back to the point, the very purpose of an exile is to get people away from you - otherwise you just jail them - and Concordia is like a ten minute ride in a shuttle away from Mandalore - and happens to look like this:

(S2ep12, 09:04 - not a concept art)

... when Mandalore itself, and its capital, look like this:

(Same ep, 00:43)

(Mandalore vs Concordia, same ep, 00:40)

You don’t ”exile” people by keeping them right next to you, that’s not what exile means, and you don’t “forcibly” give subdued enemies the fertile world while keeping the nuclear wasteland.

All of this, to me, points to the people of Concorida not being forced into a hard exile - which, yeah, a forced exile would be nigh impossible without armed force. It rather points towards a treaty, which is kinda the standard thing to do after a conflict.

Of course, it’s not stated. There is no real hard evidence of what really happened - I’m just looking at what the show seems to want to say. And in my view, it wants to say that Satine was not a dictator who forced part of her people into submission.

We really have no indication that Satine relocated “huge swaths” of the population. I’m going to break away from my Lucas-only policy and use Rebels as well, because it’s still Filoni and he’s the one actually interested in Mandalorians, and it’s the material that explained most about what was going wtith Mandalore itself. Imo, Rebels only confirms what TCW was saying:

The Wrens - Death Watch affiliated for a long time, to the point they’re still remembered for it seventeen years after the war - never lost their ancestral home, nor did Ursa lose her status as Countess. In fact, she only started having problems when the Empire showed up and Sabine opposed it. The Empire, which does used armed force.

And later in the Mandalore arc, we are told by Fenn Rau - a Protector, who was fighting with the Republic during the war, so was in fact a warrior - that Bo-Katan is considered the legitimate ruler by many, because she is Satine’s sister and because the Jedi made her regent (s4ep1). Fenn Rau, who fought against and hated Death Watch (Rebels, s2ep12), was still a warrior, recognized the legitimacy of Satine, and recognized the legitimacy of Bo-Katan through her connection to Satine.

Again, to me, all of this points to Satine having been accepted as a ruler by the majority. I feel like it’s confirmed by Pre Vizsla having to resort to political machinations and terrorism (namely, hiring crime lords to attack the population and heroically “protecting” the citizens) to seize power. If there were huge swaths of Mandalorians scattered around hating Satine’s guts, he’d just have gone to them and attacked, don’t you think? Or he would have gathered those disgruntled clans and forced an election, since Almec would have allied with him and had the power to remove Satine (s3ep6), and Satine never took away Mandalorian citizenship from Death Watch members - again, confirmed by Ursa’s status, Bo-Katan’s, Almec’s legitimacy not being revoked, and Satine never ever referrring to Death Watch as non-Mandalorians - but in fact saying “those among us” (TCW s2ep12).

Instead Vizsla had few followers, apparently didn’t have know any other large group of scorned Mandos he could have allied to, and he had to work hard to convince the people already there to support him (which he accomplished by lying to them and endangering them).

Finally, we have many examples of Satine being willing to die rather than to compromise her ideals.

Here are a few:

(S2ep13)

(S3ep6, after getting electrocuted, Almec trying to get to confess for the crimes he committed.)

(S5ep16 - she’s being choked, and she’s more concerned with making sure Obi-Wan does not go into a killing spree and lose him trying to slaughter the guy choking her.)

I don’t have Stories of Light and Dark on hand so I can’t confirm this, but there is strong evidence that the original script of the episode had her last words be something of the effect of “Don’t give up on your principles, I never gave up in mine.” It was kept in the French dub of the episode and in at least one English junior novelization, and I think it’s Kenobi’s Shadow but I’m not sure.

Like, her last words were going to be not compromising with your beliefs.

Her beliefs being:

1) Mourning the Death Watch terrorist who just bombed the public square where she was.

2) Comforting said dying terrorist in his own language (Concordian Mando’a, and according to non-canon translations, she’s promising him rest). She follows by immediately telling Obi-Wan they wouldn’t be on speaking terms anymore if he’d been the one to kill the Death Watch guy. Let me reiterate: she wouldn’t be on speaking terms with the love of her life if he’d been the one to kill the violent terrorist who just attempted murder on her.

3) Yeeting the blaster that she thought about shooting a terrorist, disgusted. A terrorist that she didn’t kill (Anakin did), even though he was about to kill and hundreds of people. (S2ep13). You can see her hand shaking when she’s debating whether or not to subdue Merrick, who is posing an immediate threat.

4) Answering this to Obi-Wan’s claim that a military presence is the only way to protect oneself/have peace. (S2ep13)

5) This right here, when Almec questions the Jedi “meddling” with the Mandalorian ways and interfering with the children’s education.

Is that seriously how anyone would portray somebody who didn’t compromise with her enemies but used force to subdue them? I’m not saying it’s impossible that the show is characterizing her as hypocritical, just that it’s unlikely when the point of her relationship with Obi-Wan is partly to challenge his role in the war by presenting another path.

I’m also not saying that you couldn’t maybe make canon fit with the idea that Satine actually violently forced part of the Mandalorian people out of their homes, just that I have a very, very, very hard time imagining that’s what the creators were going for with her character.

TLDR: - I don’t think Satine relocated huge portions of the population; I don’t think there is strong evidence in the show supporting it - Satine is repeatedly shown to be ready to die rather than renounce pacifism - Satine still recognizes Death Watch as Mandalorians - You don’t give your greenest, most prosperous moon to people you’re forcibly removing from their homes and exiling - Rebels confirms that Satine was in fact accepted even by warrior factions => this, coupled with creator intent (such as giving Obi-Wan a pacifist love interest to contrast with the principle of a “just war”) leads me to conclude that Satine was never intended to be shown as repressive.

Hence, I don’t have a problem reconciling her complete pacifism with some Mandalorians being “exiled” to Concordia (a terminology was proven to be debatable), especially given the complete lack of oversight, the tolerance for weapons, and them having their own governor.

PS: I’m begging you, do not answer this post if you haven’t read it all. It’s happened with the last one and it was very tiring.

This is my own post, about my own opinions. I’m not attacking anyone, I’m not trying to go to war with anyone. I’m interested in defending Satine on my own blog, not in fighting with anyone else over it. Please engage with this respectfully or block me and move on.

#Satine Kryze #love this #The Clone Wars #Star Wars #seriously this is a damn good post

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