brazenautomaton

[brazenautomaton]

like dude did you not read the rest of the article they directly said that Israel opened fire on crowds of Palestinians and that they shot at crowds with volleys of gunfire

what is this "weasel words" horseshit are you under the impression they are trying to cover up something in the article where they directly stated the thing happened?

A CNN investigation into a deadly incident near an aid distribution site in southern Gaza on Sunday points to the Israeli military opening fire on crowds of Palestinians as they tried to make their way to the fenced enclosure to get food.

More than a dozen eyewitnesses, including those wounded in the attack, said Israeli troops shot at crowds in volleys of gunfire that occurred sporadically through the early hours of Sunday morning. The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), the US and Israeli-backed aid initiative that runs the site, said that Israeli forces were operating in the area during the same period.

Multiple videos geolocated by CNN place the gunfire near a roundabout where hundreds of Palestinians had gathered about half a mile (800 meters) away from the militarized aid site in Tel al-Sultan in Rafah. The designated route to the site along the coast, Al-Rasheed Street, is in an area under the Israeli military’s control and Israeli troops operate at a base nearby.

Weapons experts said the rate of gunfire heard in the footage, as well as images of bullets retrieved from victims, were consistent with machine guns used by the Israeli military that can be mounted on tanks. Multiple eyewitnesses said that they saw gunfire emanating from Israeli tanks nearby.

The Israeli military declined to answer questions about CNN’s findings.

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gotcha

"Musk and Trump are just pretending to fight with each other, all this is actually being done on purpose to distract us from [thing]" <- has anyone made this post yet?

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is there a word for when it's stopped raining and the wind blows and it makes the rainwater trapped on leaves fall from trees?

I bet there is in German

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Chuck Roberson, John Wayne's stuntman

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As a reactionary fascist in their terms, I, unlike communists, understand pretty well how and why people disagree with me. But I too think they should be killed for disagreement. No truth but power. No distinction but an ally or an enemy.

yeah I think you might be a reactionary fascist by more than just the definition of communists

the reason that what communists do is bad isn't just "it's aimed at the wrong people."

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I'd totally understand if you're not an ally any more after reading this

i will check

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I'd ask you to rate local discoursers by cognitive empathy, but I feel like not only might it not go over well with some of them, it would also be kind of redundant.

also I don't have the expertise to do so for most of them, not being the god-king of cognitive empathy

also it's a real dick move for everyone who isn't in the "could not repeat an opponent's argument if you held a gun to their head" tier, the only one I'd be confident in assigning, and for those people you don't need me to say anything

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I don't think it's a result of progressives "letting Muslims get away with things" that's responsible for the fact that certain progressive views haven't permeated as widely in the Muslim would. Certainly I have encountered plenty of progressives in the US who make identity-based excuses for regressive Muslims. But at the end of the day I think the reason that, say, Iraq or whatever isn't as culturally progressive as the US is a byproduct of like ten thousand different factors; it's like a dynamical systems thing. The diffusion of ideas from one place to another is always messy and at least a little bit random, there are local levels of education and material conditions to consider, there is the context in which one is exposed to different values (if gay rights are seen as "an American thing", you might expect Iraqis to be less likely to feel positive towards them); there is of course the directly religious motivation, which as you say does also exist in Christianity and Judaism, but again local factors like education, poverty, etc. etc. affect how religious people are, and also there are self-sustaining cycles to what parts of a religion people take seriously (e.g. homosexuality is not, in the text of the Bible, a particularly important issue, but Evangelical Christians take it very seriously and treat it as highly important for weird, path-dependent ideological reasons).

Basically I don't think you can pinpoint any specific reason why this or that group is more tolerant of e.g. homosexuality. Changing hearts and minds on a particular issue is just a slow, hard, messy process, and it's only a few decades ago that basically everyone was vehemently anti-homosexuality. It doesn't surprise me that the gay rights movement hasn't conquered the entire world yet, these things take time and gay rights has only been a thing for a few decades. Same, frankly, with women's rights, which is only a few decades older. If you look at mass ideological shifts in the past—say, the spread of Christianity or Islam in the first place—they took centuries. Information travels faster now, but you still run into the basic issue that if you want to convince everyone to agree with you on a Thing, you have to go out and proselytize and make the Thing seem appealing to many different groups with many different local concerns and considerations, and this just inherently takes a long ass time and doesn't happen everyone immediately.

I'm talking about the progressives in the US who make excuses for regressive Muslims and why Muslim communities in the West do in fact appear to be much worse-behaved than other immigrant communities from similarly regressive parts of the world.

obviously progressives have nothing to do with why Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia are horrible theocracies, any more than it's their fault anywhere else in the world is awful. those places are awful for the reasons you described, at least in part. but people who emigrate from Muslim countries appear to take more of that with them than people who emigrate from other terrible countries to live like Eritrea or Myanmar or Belarus or Haiti. Politicians and prominent figures are not out here saying "well if you offend Southeast Asians you should have expected they'd behead you."

my explanation for this observed difference is that there are pressures in our society to adopt tolerant liberalism as your outlook, not all of them are from pressure by progressives but some of them are, and progressives exempt Muslims from that pressure and instead devote that effort to letting Muslims get away with everything for path-dependent ideological reasons.

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the time part is much more salient than the money part

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you guys have no idea what anything costs

"if there's money for a parade there's money for medicaid" the federal government spent $880 billion dollars on Medicaid in 2023, this parade would increase the budget by 00.005%

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North Carolina voted for Trump three times in a row.

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The MASGD was founded in 2013 according to Wikipedia.

Starting a riot does not require the community's support. Parisians as a whole do not like rioting; there are a bunch of people who live there (or who don't live there according to some) who love rioting. Parisians can't stop the rioting by disapproving of it, the rioting does not require their cooperation, and you can't claim this means Parisians as a whole like rioting. The government in Paris could be doing things to prevent the riots from happening, but idk enough to know how effective they'd be or how tyrannical the attempt.

A bunch of Muslims violently hate Jews and the population of Muslim countries do hate Jews in a way much stronger than you can say Parisians love riots. This is bad! But as anyone can tell you, it's in no way exclusive to Muslims. The OP of this thread points out how progressives just kind of cough and shuffle their feet about antisemitism that isn't a way to attack their enemies in bad faith. The previous guy who globalized the intifada wasn't a Muslim, he was a SomethingAwful Communist. Progressives enforce the value of "racism is bad" by shaming people for doing things that look racist (a terrible way to do so but the way it's done), progressives are committed to letting Muslims get away with everything, progressives do not enforce this value against Muslims, antisemitism is more accepted and prevalent in Muslim communities because it stays closer to baseline from everywhere.

There are Muslims who aren't antisemitic, there are Muslim interfaith organizations, Muslims who speak out against antisemitism, something called a "global digital rally" that I ain't watching all of on the toilet but a cursory examination of random points showed was Muslims talking about how antisemitism was bad. The Muslim-Jewish Advisory Council was founded in 2016 and appears to fight both Islamophobia and antisemitism sincerely and not to divert attention from one to the other. The Council of Muslims Against Antisemitism is exactly what it sounds like though I don't know how long ago they were founded. (There are other Muslim interfaith groups like WCMIR but under the requirements of this discussion I don't KNOW they're not just for "accept us while we're the minority and then when we're the majority fuck you.") There are plenty of Muslims who adopt tolerant liberal secular values and are cool with funny religious hats for everyone, whether just from being a part of tolerant liberal secular democracy or being exceptional enough to adopt those values against the prevailing culture of the place they live. They just had to do it by going past the "assigned reading" because the primary force to try and get people to stop being bigoted in Western society has exempted them.

The Quran is hostile to non-Muslims and says a bunch of shit about how Allah will curse those who refuse the obvious truth it doesn't get around to provinv, but then turns around and goes "eh, Christians and Jews and Zoroastrians, that's like half credit, they follow Allah just in kind of the wrong way." The translation I have access to obviously doesn't accept "everyone has the right to their own religion and is equally valid," we don't expect it to, but is much kinder to Jews and Christians than to polytheists. I don't know if this translation was massaged to be more acceptable, but I really doubt it; it's clear it thinks there are good Jews and bad Jews and "good Jews" doesn't just mean "converts to Islam." Under Islamic law, Jews were second-class citizens, but so were Christians, Zoroastrians, and something called Sabians that nobody knows what they are nowadays. And oppression is terrible, of course, but a system of "okay so you are a second class citizen, here are the rights you have, here are the rights you don't have, here's the increased jizya tax you pay because you can't be in the military, sign and date right here" is at least a fair-ER way to go about it. Antisemitism was of course everywhere and spiked in various times for the same reasons it did everywhere else, a mostly insulated community that retains strong identity and loans money at interest makes people go fucking mental. But the Quran doesn't appear to single out Jews, and the acceptance of extreme and violent antisemitism as being a teaching of Islam appears to be a more recent development. But of course I'm not a Quranic scholar or Arab historian.

If you've called for a intifada, what happened in Colorado is what you were chanting for.

In case there was any question about that.

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MAID cafe where you can have the catgirl waitresses kill you

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diversity win! this female Muslim is also a chav

Absolutely incredible series of Taskmaster so far, my god.

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something that required the support and complicity of the community as a whole instead of a violent mob of football hooligans coordinating violence in a manner typical of football hooligans of any ethnicity. that would be what I'd need.

France is having football riots right now. There's been a significant resurgence in football riots all over mainland Europe. To be convincing evidence of a problem particular to Muslims it has to not be something others are doing. Yes, the hooligans who were violent were anti-semitic and hateful, you know, because they're allowed to get away with those things, but this was absolutely a bunch of violent football fans going "WOO YEAH WE LOVE RIOTS OVER THIS ONE SPORT FOR SOME REASON" and then spilling over into unchecked violence like they always do. Any evidence that this is a problem of Muslims would have to be evidence that does not also prove Parisians are in favor of riots. Planning and coordination that required the community, the non-football-aligned community members helping to hunt down Jews, the non-fans concealing the violence and hiding the rioters to get them out of trouble.

If you were an average Muslim Yusuf Schmoe in Amsterdam who wasn't involved in a group of soccer psychos, what you saw was a bunch of Israeli fans screaming and if it was near you you probably hid from it. Then a bunch of soccer psychos you don't know had conversations on WhatsApp you weren't privy to about starting a "Jew hunt." Then they began said "Jew hunt" and you went "DUDE WHAT THE FUCK!" because soccer psychos were setting shit on fire and beating people in the streets. Your participation wasn't required for this!

Also here's a Muslim advocacy group for the "progressive values" that aren't "let Arab Muslims get away with things." They appear to be sincere and spend the majority of their efforts on convincing Muslims to be tolerant liberals and not on making others ignore it when Muslims aren't tolerant liberals. This "Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity" is wholly homogenized Progressive Protest Product but that's still not the kind of violent repression you think is typical of Muslims. The Al-Fatiha Foundation was also fighting for gay rights in Islam, they even got a fatwa against them, but they fell apart in 2011.

These people aren't as influential as similar groups in other communities because progressivism lets regressive Muslims get away with everything, but they're trying. There are Christian LGBT groups too.

If you've called for a intifada, what happened in Colorado is what you were chanting for.

In case there was any question about that.

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I'm not going to bat for or against it, and am saying to stop going to bat for or against it

the problem is not Islam itself, the problem is a mixture of violent antisemitic rhetoric, and liberal progressives saying "anyone who notices anything bad happening in or involving this community must hate the religion itself, so we should cover it up and act like everything one of its members does wrong is proof they are the REAL victims"

maybe you didn't notice this, but there is a huge amount of antisemitism going around all over these days! it isn't particular to Muslims! the part where they get excused for things nobody else would be and where authority figures get to turn antisemitism into being about them is particular to them.

If you've called for a intifada, what happened in Colorado is what you were chanting for.

In case there was any question about that.