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Most insightful take you've seen on the buffyverse.

Hi! Sorry that it's taken me so long to respond to this ask...I've been thinking about my response for a few days because I feel like it's hard to pick just one insightful take, so I'm gonna give you two haha

I think a really insightful take that I had never thought of/noticed before finding the fandom and seeing people point things out, are all the parallels in Buffy and Angel's journeys - both together and separately. Their journeys mirror each other from the moment their paths cross to the very end. They literally go through the same things, in different situations and variations: Dawn/Connor, Death and Resurrection, Isolation/depression, Sp*ke/Darla, their leadership roles, etc. Now that I'm aware of it, I find myself finding new ways that they parallel each other every time I rewatch the shows and I find it elevates my watch of both shows SO much.

The second take absolutely blew my mind when I heard it, and I just have to share it. On the Investigating Angel Podcast (which I am a co-host of hehe), we spoke about the Buffy and Angel theme songs and how they're connected. I'll insert some screenshots here from the book Sarah found this in - Music, Sound, and Silence in Buffy the Vampire Slayer by Janet K. Halfyard:

To sum it up:

"Buffy’s basic theme is too short to really be called a melody; rather, it is a four-note motif. Angel’s theme is a considerably longer melody, and where the opening four notes echo the pitches of Buffy’s motif, the final four notes echo its shape. The similarities of key and motif between Buffy and Angel might be read as a thinly disguised means of reasserting the eternal bond between the two characters—although they are separated (into two series, apart from anything else) they will always be connected. The shared motif stands as a symbol of their common mission, of the emotional connection between them, and also of their separation."

Sarah also made a video about this, if you're interested in watching it, it's EXCELLENT:

ANYWAY, I'll just shamelessly plug our podcast now.......check out Investigating Angel Podcast on any platform! We're rewatching Angel the Series and will be wrapping up season 3 by the end of June :)

Thanks for the ask :)

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My hero

Buffy Anne Summers

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#THEBuffySummers #putsomerespectonhername #getit

ranking btvs characters and not putting buffy summers as your number one should actually be illegal. she is that girl. THE main character. and for a REASON.

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Bangel fans, we want to hear from you! During the run-up to the IWRY Fic Marathon in November, we’ll be getting to know each other through our Meet the Fandom series. Answer the questions here to join in.

What is your name?

Sarah

Where do you hang out?

Tumblr: @becomingbuffypodcast

Also @becomingbuffypodcast on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok Podcast: Becoming-buffy.castos.com

Do you create any fan works?

I have a podcast on Buffy (Becoming Buffy) and one on Angel (Investigating Angel). I create analytic essays on each episode on Instagram and Tumblr, as well as analysis videos (YouTube).

Funniest Bangel/Buffyverse moment?

Angel slipping in the doorway in Graduation Day.

What Buffyverse opinion would have you chased through the village with pitchforks?

Anya's death was a full circle moment for her character, and was earned.

How would you have given Buffy and Angel their Happily Ever After?

Angel shanshu'd and met up with Buffy after she formed the Slayer Academy and left it to Faith, Giles, and Willow. They live by the beach and Buffy breaks out the stakes every once in a while when the world needs her.

Last fic you read?

"Reprieve" by Scribes1015

Slay, Lay, Obey - Dawn, Fred, Wesley?

Slay: Fred

Lay: Wes

Obey: Dawn

Fill in the quiz so the fandom can meet you!

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Which demon do you prefer. Lorne or Doyle?

Lorne.

He's unique, warm, empathetic, hilarious, and adds an interesting dynamic by not being a fighter or a warrior.

While Doyle had a purpose on the show, the biggest impact he had was in his death. I didn't find his storyline very compelling (although he did only have a handful of episodes, so I'll cut him some slack), and he mirrored Angel a bit too much. Both Irishmen, wrestling with two halves of himself, seeking redemption...there wasn't enough about him that stood out from Angel.

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Who is the Buffy fanbase too hard on?

Dawn and Connor.

Both are children with developing brains, abnormal childhoods, dysfunctional family dynamics, and so so much trauma.

Are they annoying at times? Absolutely. Do we have to like them? Absolutely not. But we should be fair in our assessment of them.

And while there are many reasons why people don't like Dawn and Connor, some of them valid, and many of them not, it's difficult to see them being dragged all the time when the problematic favs literally get away with murder.

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Who get the biggest passes from Buffyverse fans and can you give examples of the worst things these characters do?

Well this is a juicy question.

Spike, and Cordelia.

Interestingly, at some point, both characters were given the role of calling Buffy out on her "crap." James Marsters even talks about how he was brought in as a replacement for Cordelia in season 4, but then was replaced by Anya when they decided to do something else with him.

With Cordy being the mean girl, and Spike the soulless vampire, the writers had the freedom to use these characters to say and do some incredibly cruel things towards Buffy in the name of "brutal honesty," while also excusing their behavior because they weren't meant to be the hero...at least initially.

This worked a little too well, as Charisma and James were amazing in their roles. Each character is charming, beautiful, multifaceted, and extremely funny.

The problem is, you can't keep your characters stagnate, so the writers were forced to give Cordy and Spike character growth, but also find a way to retain who they are. This is incredibly difficult when your character was literally written to clash with Buffy, and is popular for saying mean, biting things in the name of "tough love."

-Cordelia-

While Queen C is more than the resident mean girl, her cruel words and selfish behavior are praised as "truth" and confidence, with her belittling nearly every member of the Scooby gang. She is constantly pitting herself against Buffy; (Homecoming, Halloween, etc) demeaning and belittling her when Buffy has personally saved her life several times. She begins to show signs of character growth in season 3, but once Xander cheats on her, reverts right back to blaming Buffy for everything. Instead of holding Xander accountable for his actions, she makes a wish that Buffy never came to Sunnydale, and then never sees the consequences for her own actions.

Even after her move to LA, she calls Buffy a cry-Buffy, blames her for turning Angel into Angelus, emasculates Wesley, victim blames and shames a SA survivor (Untouched), and is generally just careless about what she says or does, with no thought about how her words effect others.

Personally, while I do see some growth over her time on Angel, I do not buy her characterization in the later seasons where she is drastically changed to become a Champion, and then shoe-horned into a relationship with Angel. On top of that, she never atones for or even recognizes her need to change for her awful behavior, and that makes it very hard for me to forgive her for her past sins, let alone root for her.

It's possible that with better writing and without Joss being a horrible person, that her transition would have been more organic and believable.

-Spike-

For a show about feminism, the writers really spend a lot of time on this man. He steals Buffy's underwear, stalks her, makes a sex robot that looks just like her, attempts to kill her multiple times, boasts about killing and torturing other slayers, justifies it by saying they wanted it, ties her up, then spends a season belittling her just so that she'll sleep with him. THEN when she refuses sex with him, attempts to force himself on her.

And for those of you who say, "oh he just didn't have a soul yet." Fine.

After he had a soul, he boasts about assaulting her, shames her for using him for sex when he knew she didn't love him, shames her for not loving him, and blames her for the reason he's tortured with having a soul. (Beneath You)

He nearly kills Robin Wood, and then mocks him for not being loved by his mother (which is proven to be false in "Damage"), all while wearing the coat that he stole from Robin's mother after he killed her.

Not once does he apologize to Buffy or attempt to hold himself accountable, even after he has a soul. It is not until "Damage" on Angel that we see any sort of unselfish remorse.

Then to add insult to injury, season 7 has Buffy spending so much time taking care of Spike, rescuing Spike, training with Spike, reassuring Spike that he is a good man...all to the detriment of her other relationships. People like to blame the Potentials for why season 7 is as clunky as it is, but I blame the focus on Spike.

Even worse, the show doesn't seem to want Spike to change, as there's hardly a difference between pre souled and ensouled Spike. And that goes against the show's core tenant of choice and growth.

From the very beginning, vampires represent the opposite of adolescence in that they are stagnate and do not change. "Fool for Love" very clearly establishes that Spike's persona is created to compensate for his lack of an identity. Cecily's rejection of him deeply wounds him and he is shown to create a facade to mask his insecurities. So he takes from powerful women and forms a false identity around them to prove that he is not beneath them. The episode emphasizes this pattern with Cecily, Dru, and the two Slayers, continuing in present day with Buffy.

In order to be consistent with the lore and message of the show, ensouled Spike needed to look a lot different from un-ensouled Spike, but the writers knew he wouldn't be as popular.

And so we're left with a half baked season where we're supposed to believe that Buffy is distant from everyone but Spike, who looks the exact same as he did the season before when he tried to force himself on her.

It's just icky. It's the opposite of empowering. It blurs the lines of the lore. And it sends the wrong message.

We can like these characters and even root for them, but we need to be honest about their flaws, and not justify awful writing and problematic characterization.

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What is your favorite Angel episode?

Ooo man. I can never pick just one, so here's a few that I really love:

-IWRY

-5x5

-Are you now or have you ever been?

-Calvary

-Lineage

-Harm's Way

-Damage

There's more, but those are a few that I really loved discussing or can't wait to talk about in the future! I'm a huge sucker for Wes and Faith 😉

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Buffy vs Dracula analysis video

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Twenty years ago the I Will Remember You Fic Marathon (IWRY) was born. Originated by Leni, then passed on to Chrislee, to Dark Star, and then Angelus2Hot, IWRY has remained the premiere event on the Buffy/Angel calendar and the centre of the B/A fandom itself.

This year we are hoping to mark these two decades of fan creativity and storytelling by making it the biggest IWRY in years. 

In this spirit, one of our team approached the current moderator to ask if we could join her in the running of the event. She did not feel this was necessary. We respect her decision and all the work she has put into keeping the marathon going these past years. We wish her nothing but the best with it now and in the future.

However, we believe IWRY is deeply rooted in our fandom as a collective and community experience. We want to create spaces and events where all who wish to participate can participate. It is for this reason we have decided to run our own I Will Remember You Fic Marathon.

Sign-ups for IWRY Fic Marathon are open now. 

If you are a writer or even just writer-curious, please put your name down and join us as we celebrate all things Bangel. We will accept any piece of fanfiction, of any rating, that is 500 or more words long and focused on the relationship of Buffy/Angel (and/or Buffy/Angelus). If drabbles are your jam, we will be happy to include those among the Another Minute bonus stories at the end of the event.

If you are neither writer nor curious, fear not! We would love to have you join in whatever capacity is best for you. Some roles to consider include:

Beta reading

Creating fanart, fanvids, edits, or GIFs

Supporting the writers with reviews & comments on fics

Taking part in our "Meet the Fandom" series

Helping us with the logistics behind the scenes

Promoting the marathon on your platform of choice

Anything we missed? Let us know!

If you are interested in participating in a non-writing role, email us at iwryficmarathon@gmail.com.

If you are a writer without an AO3 account, we have a number of invitations that we are happy to share. Just let us know on the signup sheet. If you are not a writer but would like to be active on AO3, just reach out to us directly via email.

The stories will be posted to a 2023 Collection on the I Will Remember You Marathon Archive. We will provide clear instructions about how to do this closer to the event.

Once again, we welcome you to the IWRY Fic Marathon and encourage you to take part in any way you can!

Please reach out to us here or at iwryficmarathon@gmail.com with any questions.

IWRY Fic Marathon Organising Committee:

Abby | Aboutafox | Bri | GraceNM | Kairos | Kean | Lea | Taaroko

Supported by:

calenlily | Fluffernutter8 | MrsGordo | MamaBewear | Najae

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S5. Ep4. Out of My Mind

Definition: Having lost control of one’s mental faculties, so mad, or crazy, or suffering from a particular condition to a very high degree.

Written by Rebecca Rand Kirshner, executive producer and showrunner of 90210, “Out of My Mind” shows Riley and Spike acting crazy and out of control. Spike’s realization of his obsession with Buffy, Riley’s loss of purpose and identity, and even Joyce’s moment in the kitchen where she doesn’t recognize Dawn—each of these characters behave in a way that is different from how we are used to seeing them.

Once again, we have the parallels between Spike and Riley, as both have forcibly lost the most formative parts of their identity and are now seeking meaning and purpose through Buffy. In contrast, Buffy is shown to be at the height of her personal and slayer lives, with both sides reflecting her duality. Always certain of herself and her mission, Buffy’s sense of identity is sure, while Riley and Spike are floundering.

Interestingly, neither Riley nor Spike are truly trapped in this purgatory of meaningless existence, as both men can (and really should!) leave Sunnydale and Buffy behind. Instead, they live in Buffy’s shadow, paralyzed by thoughts of inadequacy, obsession, and fear. Spike’s inability to separate violence and sex, has shifted his obsession with the Slayer, from bloodlust to straight up lust. The chip has not changed his nature, only redirected it.

For Riley, his obsession with measuring up to Buffy’s power has caused him to sink further into feelings of inadequacy and powerlessness. While he genuinely cares for her, he is so consumed with his own deficiencies that he is unable to create a life and identity of his own. In his loss of agency, Riley is actually reflecting the vampires and demons that he hates.

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Riley’s characterization is frustrating because while it has so much potential, the show is extremely inconsistent with how it portrays his feelings towards Buffy and her power. While Riley has assured Buffy multiple times that he loves all of her, there are moments where he is shown to be visibly uncomfortable with certain aspects of who she is. What this episode is trying to convey is that Riley’s insecurities come from believing Buffy doesn’t love him because HE is not powerful enough, not because he’s uncomfortable with HER power. The problem is, because Riley is not a fully fleshed out character, we as the viewer have been left to form our own conclusions.

Several episodes have cut scenes of Riley that add depth and context to his character. In “Buffy vs. Dracula,” we were supposed to find out that Riley was applying for his master’s degree in psychology, and then later see him being denied acceptance. In that same scene we would see him express a desire for sex with Buffy but be turned down as she needed to go Slay. The scene we do see is the one where Buffy approaches Riley for sex, only for him to deflect, citing rest. Without full context, the viewer is left to interpret Riley’s moodiness as simple jealousy and insecurity compared to Angel or Dracula, but with those deleted scenes we can see that there is another layer.

Riley’s function has always been to be the normal guy that Buffy dates to “try on” a normal life. Because he was given no real purpose apart from this, the writers have been forced to make that his entire personality. In “the Replacement,” Xander’s struggle to see his two sides as equally necessary, is meant to represent how Buffy feels about her humanity and being the Slayer. To be a full, and complete human being requires integration and acceptance of both.

Yet, the twist of the episode is that the seemingly put-together Riley is less complete than the bumbling, and immature Xander. Ironically, the writers seem to recognize Riley’s lack of depth, as he is shown as the only one without duality. Gone is his super-soldier side, leaving him incomplete and purposeless as only Buffy’s boyfriend. And therein lies his insecurity.

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S5. Ep3. The Replacement

Continuing the season’s theme of duality, “The Replacement” is the first Xander-centric episode since season 3’s, “The Zeppo.” Loosely based off the Star Trek episode, “The Enemy Within,” in which Captain Kirk is split into his good and evil halves, the twist of “The Replacement” is that neither part of Xander is inherently good nor bad.

According to Whedon, the premise of the episode is the question of whether Xander is, the “awkward nerd with a wise cracking kind of charm", or the "hot-headed... fiery stud who's not afraid to speak his mind..." Turns out, both sides are Xander, and both are necessary.

From the very beginning of the show, Xander has wrestled with his role within the Scooby gang, as he does not fit the traditionally masculine mold. Between this and his lack of supernatural powers, he has often felt like the weak link--feeling left behind as everyone moves on in life. While this episode continues to deal with Xander’s perception of his inadequacy, it is shown to also encompass his adult life, and not just his friendships. One of the bi-products of this expansion is the chance to delve a bit into Anya’s own fears and desires—adding depth to a character we’ve been watching for over a season and giving us one of the first meaningful conversations between her and Xander.

Love him or hate him, the show has done a wonderful job of remaining consistent in its characterization of Xander, while also showing bits of growth and maturity. We all agreed that this was one of the more enjoyable Xander episodes, as it was refreshing to see an inward struggle that most people can relate to, and not just a reflection of Joss’ own issues.

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S5. Ep2. Real Me

In a lot of ways, “Real Me” functions more as a season opener than “Buffy vs Dracula” did, with the characters being reintroduced from the perspective of Dawn. Joss Whedon has admitted that season 4 strayed from some of the core tenets of the show, and that “Restless” was written to help course correct and center the show for season 5. This is reflected not only in the return to the familiar setting of the Summers’ home, and the finding of a new Scooby meeting place, but also in the decisions that the characters are making to move forward in life.

Even the song playing in Giles’ car hints at this, using Edvard Grieg’s, “Prelude from Hollberg Suite:” an early essay in neoclassicism. Both music and art are influenced by culture and events, and after a particularly turbulent event in history, you’ll often notice a radical shift in what is created. Neoclassicism became popular in the 20th century as a reaction against the “unrestrained emotionalism and perceived formlessness” of Romanticism, where it strove to bring order, balance, and emotional restraint back into the arts. While this reflects Giles’ desire to get his life back into order, it’s also a reflection of the showrunners and writers attempting to do the same.

Continuing with our themes of family and duality, “Real Me” gives us insight into Buffy through the characters of Dawn and Harmony. Harmony feels the pressures of leadership and the criticisms of others (mostly men), representing Buffy’s role as the Slayer. Dawn desires to be understood as she feels as though her life has been defined for her, representing Buffy’s desire for normalcy. Ironically, the sisters’ frustrations with each other both stem from the same place: a desire to be known and understood.

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Every new season deals with the repercussions of the previous one, and thanks to the character analysis of “Restless,” this episode is able to center the themes of season 5 on the motivations and choices of the Scoobies. While family is a huge theme of the season, another one is the duality of self, with this being especially highlighted through Buffy’s interactions with Dracula.

In “Restless” we got major hints that the Slayer’s origins are something more primal and animalistic, and here we see evidence of this through her actively hunting down vampires instead of simply patrolling for them.

Buffy’s fear that being the Slayer is what ultimately attracts and brings her under the thrall of Dracula is echoed by not only Dracula himself, but also by Riley. The question of which side of her is drawn to the Dark Prince reveals a fundamental misunderstanding, and therefore, fear of who Buffy is.

Based loosely off Bram Stoker’s “Dracula,” a huge theme of the book is female sexual purity, with the idea that a woman becomes sexually provocative and unclean after she is bitten. Female sexual expression is seen as evil and a threat, with Dracula pursuing Mina to seduce and turn her. Throughout the entire episode we are led to believe that Buffy is Mina, with the writers even framing Riley as Van Helsing, the vampire hunter that saves her in the book. Yet, in the end, the twist is that Buffy was Van Helsing all along, as it is her blood, Slayer and all, that breaks the thrall.

Listen to our analysis of "Buffy vs Dracula" on all platforms!

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S5. Ep1. Buffy vs. Dracula

Written by Marti Noxon, making it the first ever season premiere not written by Joss, “Buffy vs. Dracula” is generally seen as one of the weakest season openers of the show, with many fans (and even writers!) split on their opinions of it. Both Marti and Joss loved the idea of having the iconic Dracula be a part of the episode, yet admit that tonally, it was a challenging fit:

“We tried to pack a lot into that episode and it was actually one of the hardest episodes we ever had to break. I think I wrote an entire draft of that script which we threw out and then wrote a whole another draft of that script and usually things go a little smoother. That was a tortured project…It’s hard to bring a character who’s that iconic into your universe; it lent itself to camp. At the same time, we were actually trying to do something deeper than that. We were trying to make it emotional and make it have some resonance. But it was a campy situation, and tone wise we weren’t always sure where we were...So we struggled for tone and we were tired coming out of season four.” -Marti

David Fury was one of the writers that hated the episode, saying, “I can go with a modern Dracula. But it was just the fact that he was somebody else’s creation invading Joss’ creation. I thought it sort of diminished our rules, our universe…I was actually very bothered by that episode. I thought it flew in the face of the mythology of our vampires. It doesn’t play in the Dracula playground. The kind of logic I would apply to it is the thing Joss would say who cares? Well, I do. I care. We’ve created these rules and I don’t want to break our rules. And Dracula totally broke the rules. We just said, Dracula is some weird anomaly of a vampire, and seeing Xander become Renfield was all fun, but it was an episode I had difficulty embracing. I thought it sort of commented on how Buffy’s universe is kind of fictional. When you start introducing another famous fictional character into our world, to me it bursts the bubble of this universe that Joss created and we created with him. Some people enjoyed it very much. I’m just not one of them.”

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Each of the dreams are shown in the order of the tarot cards being handed out in “Primeval” with Willow’s happening first. This is fitting because Willow represents Buffy’s spirit, just as the kitten represents the spirit of the Slayer, and she has also been one of the primary symbols for the season’s themes of magic v science/feminine v masculine. The colors, red and gold/yellow are also prominently on display in each scene, with red symbolizing Willow’s sexuality, and gold foreshadowing the sunrise, or Dawn. The kitten plays with a red ball of yarn in front of a gold pillow, Tara is covered with a red sheet, Oz, Xander, Riley, Willow, and Harmony all wear variations of red and yellow, and even the background of the stage is a yellow sunrise.

The scene with Tara shows that she is Willow’s safe place, and is a homage to the film, “the Pillow Book.” The words that Willow paints on her back are from a poem by the Greek poet, Sappho of Lesbos called, “Hymn to Aphrodite.”

In contrast to the safety and comfort of Tara’s room, the stage play is how Willow views her life and the people in it. Each of the characters’ costumes represent exaggerated gender roles, with Willow feeling confused, insecure, and fearful that she does not truly fit in. Even still, her interactions with Buffy, Harmony, and Xander, specifically show that she sees herself more intelligent than they are, even as she fears that they continue to see her as the insecure, and nerdy girl from her past.

What’s psychologically important about the classroom scene is that it highlights Willow’s concern about her true self being revealed for all to see—she’s always worried that in the end, she’s the same inadequate loser Cordy always told her she was...Joss says that “Willow is feeling like she is wearing a disguise, she isn’t telling anyone the truth. The mislead is that what she’s talking about is her sexuality. In fact what she’s talking about is that she considers herself to be a big nerd.” If her friends saw her as she really was, she worries that they'd care so little about her that they'd sit and watch while she was killed." -Mark Field

Listen to our recap for more in-depth analysis on Willow!