a-shadow-thinker

[a-shadow-thinker]

I was talking about Mass Effect in another post and i just thought of something related to Sovereign and Saren that can connect to the Mind Flayer and Henry and give us some possible leads.

Sovereign is a Reaper that Saren discovers, who acts like a "an help" for him, that he will do what he want.

But it's a lie he wants to gain his trust, that he lowers his "mental barriers" because Saren has a strong mind, so that he can enter it and control it better.

In Mass Effect you have a phenomenon similar to the Mind Flayer's power: indoctrination.

It is an intrusive mode of corruption of organic minds, a cerebral "reprogramming" involving the physical and mental conditioning of the subject.

I think that's what happened to Henry. This “cerebral reprogramming” and physical too.

In Mass Effect, Saren doubt thanks to the hero's requests and try to resisting indoctrination.

After that, the Reaper suggest Saren add cybernetic implants to make him "more powerful".

In reality these implants will simply allow him to strengthen his control over his mind, but also control his body at one point.

What if this was also the case for Henry through the mutations, the vines, which transformed him into Vecna? A promise of power (the ability of the Mindscape through the vines planted behind his back for example), to "evolve" from the Mind Flayer to get what he wants, but in reality a way to better control Henry ? To absorb him into the hive of the Upside Down ?

We can notice that there are vines torn off at the location of his fall at the end of S4, which were burned... What if it had "removed control implants from the Mind Flayer" and can help Henry to have a more clear spirit ?

Also, Saren is aware that the Reaper is trying to mentally control him at one point.

He decides to make the Reaper believe that he is under control to try to counter his plans, to save the galaxy.

Unfortunately, we later discover that this was a manipulation by the Reaper, who made him in illusions, believe that he was in control when in reality he was only strengthening his hold on Saren.

Saren also thinks that what he is doing is good things, that it is of his own accord, that these are his ideas.

But here you also discover that it was all a mental manipulation of the Reaper to make him even more vulnerable to control and make him do what he wants.

Clearly the path that emerged for Henry with The First Shadow.

Also, the Reaper brings Saren killed his best friend, who was like a brother to him, who will never hurts...

It reminds something...

[a-shadow-thinker]

Another thought about the Mind Flayer, can it really be categorized as just "pure evil antagonist" ? Make the story worthless, that the story can be better if the villain is human, etc...

I think that we are dealing with an entity, which in its thought mechanisms, does not do things out of pure cruelty, the desire to do evil like a standard villain, but follows a logic that is specific to it.

To illustrate my point, i think about the Reapers in Mass Effect and i find that there are a lot of similarities between them and the Mind Flayer.

It's terrible from our point of view, but from theirs it follows an inflexible logic which is not based on emotional reflections but a goal pushed further by a logic contrary to human values ​​(which is what is put forward).

Which also reinforces the idea that human aspects are the key to defeating the Mind Flayer which clearly, when you encounter him in ST VR makes me think a lot of an AI in his interactions, he seems empty of emotions.

Look at Mass Effect, the main villain isn't human. (even if Cerberus (a human terrorist organization) sucks ! ) Does that prevent us from delivering a story about humans and super powerful emotions about it ? No !

[a-shadow-thinker]

I think there was a misunderstanding on some point.

First of all, the fact that the Mind Flayer is ultimately the big bad of ST doesn't in any way take away the human dimension of the story, on the contrary it strengthens it and brings a more original dimension.

It reinforces it in the sense that if you look at things with more finesse in a second reading plan, the Mind Flayer embodies through its actions on the human characters, a personified projection of the fears, of the psychological suffering which lies dormant in our unconscious.

He's the pivot point which will bring the human characters who are impacted by his actions, to express this human aspect, this human aspect laid bare which will face its trials by showing all its beauty just like all its horror.

He's a spotlight that will highlight humans, show their abilities to demonstrate bravery, strength, to grow, to show compassion from our heroes.

There is nothing problematic for the Mind Flayer about being the big bad in a human story, it's through the emotions of your human characters, their story, how you appeal to the public through them you will tell this human story.

It doesn't pass through its antagonism, but through its characters who live this adventure, with whom the audience identifies and feels this humanity in them which echoes theirs.

You tell a human story through the emotions that your human characters make you feel, through their trials and how they will react and come out of these trials, how it will impact them and finaly you, the public, what you feel inside in echo of your own humanity.

For Henry, yes he can be completely forced to do these things by the Mind Flayer.

As you can see in ST VR, the Mind Flayer distorts Henry's psychic reality.

Others have previously carried out relevant analyzes on this subject.

Which leads to something very insidious, a distortion of reality for Henry, in what he feels and experiences, what he wants, leading him to think he is in control

(to be able to better control him, what a perfect puppet is the one who is unaware that she is being controlled, no risk of resistance and rebellion),

making him believe that what he is doing is right, leading him into dead ends where he has no choice.

I use this example often, but it’s the one that sticks so well.

See Kylo Ren, Palpatine whispers, torments him since he was in his mother's womb ! All his life he has had dark thoughts, that he is a horrible person, that he hurts others, that no one likes him, etc...

At the beginning the character rejects his ideas, refuses to believe in them and attaches himself to the light.

But events caused by Palpatine will force him to believe his dark ideas, events which will isolate him and lead him to think that he can only be a bad person and that his place is in darkness.

You have a very similar pattern with Henry, his dark thoughts were perhaps already latent, but the Mind Flayer blew on him, blew on the embers intentionally to force him to do what he wants, to make him vulnerable too to his manipulations and make him think these horrible things.

The Mind Flayer clearly exhibits predatory behavior.

I am convinced that season 5 will show us since we will explore Henry's memories in the 80s, Henry's suffering for the loss, his sister in particular (someone pointed out that Holly's kidnapping was due to fact that he has not mourned, that he is in this delirium of taking her for his sister), that he never wanted that and that all of this is the work of the Mind Flayer who used this instability/weakness to manipulate him as he pleases.

In the scene where Henry scares his mother with the spiders you clearly see young Alice's foresight about this "you're not Henry".

that too, from a human point of view, is strong and resonates with many people.

Depression, autism, loneliness, abusive grooming, the dark side of the human spirit, etc...

It's in exaggerated form in the fictional framework of the show, but we clearly have these human aspects highlighted.

This goes back to what i was saying above, don't just see the Mind Flayer as "a monster/supernatural creature" but as a metaphor for the dark iceberg of the human psyche.

And that’s understandable.

It honestly has a lot more personality than a basic human, especially in a fantasy series !

I also think we have 2 plots to distinguish :

You actually have the human with all the political/military intrigue with the Russians in particular, but you also have the "magic" intrigue, the quest of the hero from the famous initiatory tale on El's side (with Will probably also in the S5 in view of what is teased about the character)

And with the DnD inspiration and many things relating to adventure in the show, to fantasy, you clearly have the hero's initiatory journey in addition to the human dimension.

But both complement each other anyway...

After all, isn't a hero defined by his human values ?

[a-shadow-thinker]

louis…louis answer my calls…

[a-shadow-thinker]

I just thought of something

There are two patterns :

Henry / Patty => Anakin / Padmé

Henry / Eleven => Kylo / Rey

What if ST proposed a revisit of the 2 ?

The SW refs are very striking in ST, not surprisingly if there is an echo also at the of these central elements of the galactic saga.

There is a duo of a Force User (Anakin) / Psychic Person (Henry) with a normal person (Padmé and Patty) and two Force Users / two people with psychic abilities.

In SW although the central relationship of the last trilogy ended in tragedy, it brings a "repair" about what has led the first relationship to the galaxy but also mutually for the characters, to Rey and Kylo.

Henry and Patty, are different from Anakin and Padmé on some point, however just like Anakin, the "loss" of Patty made Henry drop, definitely makes him sink because the part of light that kept him disappeared.

Is that, just like Reylo who is a reverse Anidala, Eleven can bring light back into Henry ? Repair him and also repair herself thanks to him (a mutual understanding of "being apart" of "sharing these powers" at a moment when she can be really lost and feel alone, "apart" in S5).

This process may also be possible with Patty return (which would be cool!) but I think in view of the stakes for the characters, it will be something that will happen between Henry and El, because both share an intimately linked arc in reverse mirroring, and the conclusion to "repair" will be through each other.

It's to be taken with a pinch of salt because we don't know what will happen between Henry and El in the S5, what form can take their relationship (even if reconciliation is very possible).

It's an idea that has a lot of charm especially with all the references very evident visually and scenariastically Black romanticism, Beauty and The Beast trope.

Which had surprised me the first time i saw S4, i didn't expect it, it reminded me my first watch of The Last Jedi and i'm really curious about Henry and El now. Why all these refs so big as an elephant in a room ? Where they want to go with these characters ?...

We have to see if this is a possible direction and how it can be taken in relation to certain parameters that can be problematic, but it can be really interesting and powerful !

as if i haven’t been saying for fucking ages that h3ntty is the same as miIeven. lol. lmao, even.

[a-shadow-thinker]

Interesting... 👀

[a-shadow-thinker]

Well, Eleven definitely his heart here.

He really looks a dead body, more than the incarnation of death.

A dead body suspended from strings like a disarticulated puppet who moves as desired by the Mind Flayer.

But there is something that can bring the puppet back to life, be an anchor and help him recover his stolen soul.

[a-shadow-thinker]

"They won't have a reconciliation arc" and then this is the intro to the 2.5 hour episode in which Henry/Vecna/whoever and El demonstrate their unwillingness to actually kill one another:

[a-shadow-thinker]

really need a reunion between Henry and his father in S5. I think this will be an important element in the redemption process.

literally what if i died

[a-shadow-thinker]

A little (big surely !) post to bring together the many pieces i analyzed between the Henry/Eleven and Rey/Kylo dynamic. 😊

First, i'm not sure that Henry and El can have a dynamic 100% similar to Rey/Kylo in season 5, however it's impossible to not notice certain parallels that already exist and to start from certain details, for speculate about certain things.

To begin with, i think there are more parallels to be drawn between Henry and Kylo than Henry and Vader. Especially with their backstory.

Both claimed a normal life, they never wanted these supernatural powers which cause them more harm than anything else in the end, which leads them to be rejected and feared by others.

Shmi accepted Ani's powers, she didn't see it negatively on the contrary.

On the other hand for Kylo it was different, all this was difficult for him to manage because he was very powerful in the Force, he felt alone, sidelined and above all he suffered from the voices he had been hearing in his head since his birth.

As Ben was tormented by Palpatine from the beginning to make him dark, Henry was tormented from the beginning of gaining his powers, by the Mind Flayer.

Leia is clearly not Virginia, she loved Ben deeply but didn't know how to handle the problem. The parallel here is that both sent their son to someone to help him with his powers : Luc for Ben and Papa for Henry.

Han and Victor are also clearly overwhelmed by what is happening to their son even though they love them enormously.

I found too a similar feeling in Henry towards his father as in Ben towards Han. We know that in Kylo's case he actually loved his father more than anything... Are we going to have a poignant reunion between Victor and Henry as well ? It's not for nothing that he's still alive i think, he will have a role to play in Henry's redemption.

You also have a parallel with the destruction of Luke's Jedi temple. Everyone accuses Ben when he is in no way responsible just like Henry was not responsible for his abominable actions, but the Mind Flayer. There is a big rejection from others for both, accusations which will bring them even more into darkness and then definitively when they lose the last light which kept them on the right path: Tai for Ben and Patty for Henry. (both pushed them to see positively what they are and their powers.)

Another parallel here with the “join me” proposal scene.

Also, both Henry and Kylo suggest to their interlocutor they can build another world together, a better world sincerely, according to them.

You can relate this to this quote from Jamie about Vecna :

("knowing not believing" is interesting, it's harder to change the mind of someone who believes. This reinforces the idea that he could change sides when he understands that he has been manipulated from the start by the Mind Flayer. Because his knowledges are false.)

Both Rey and El are looking to bring Kylo/Henry back to the right side.

They have compassion for both Kylo/Henry.

You can feel it too when El says to Henry "you were apart, like me", the "you're not alone, either are you".

I think there is more than a need to gain time, to divert attention on El's part. Just like Vecna's speech, it is sincere, their exchange is very emotional at that moment with a sharing the mutual suffering they endured because of the lab.

But at the moment she is having trouble completely embracing this bond, this belonging because like Rey she is blinded by her vision of Good and the cause of the Resistance / cause of Hawkins / her friends.

For El and Rey, this is family that they want and they never had, this need to belong, to not be alone which devours them.

Another parallel is that both Henry and Kylo express a truth about Rey/El's family, Kylo makes Rey see the truth about who her parents were and what became of them, while Henry does the same with El for her mother. They confront them with reality, with forgotten and incoherent memories.

I think that El will be led, just like Rey in The Last Jedi via the Force Bonds with Ben, to gain compassion and understanding of Henry in S5 in particular via the mindscape which will have a very similar function to the Force Bonds, telling the past, create compassion and why not lead El to think just like Rey that they need Henry to stop all this, he can helps them and that he can turn.

This passage intrigues me a lot, is Henry talking to himself ? Is the Mind Flayer in control and sending this back to the broken Henry ? I say that because it makes me think of this one with Kylo whose line is also addressed to himself, not just to Rey "Han Solo can no longer save him"

Especially since El clearly says “YOU can still stop this” and not “I can stop this”

This passage is also interesting.

He doesn't say that El lost but that her friends lost. He really sets her apart and doesn't include her with them. Because it's always in his mind that she could joins him, that her place is at his side.

When they reject their proposal, a destructive madness seizes Kylo/Henry too. Both Kylo and Henry want to destroy the person they wanted by their side, hurt by the rejection, but in the end they cannot bring themselves to do because they have compassion, affection for the both Rey and El.

Henry had several opportunities to kill El and despite his threats he didn't kill her. You can relate this to Jamie's quote about his character in S5 :

“He’s pissed, he’s properly vexed. I don’t think he’s slunk off licking his wounds in misery. He’s rebuilding, and he’s out for blood."

And

"But while revenge does play a big part in his relationship with her, I think he probably still has a desire to take her with him and live in a different sort of way because she is part of him, and he recognises a lot of himself in her"

Something similar to Kylo at the start of TROS and his development who is really furious and leads attack after attack against the resistance (Hawkins resistance in S5 I think for Vecna).

But who remains obsessed with finding Rey, making her switch to his side and i think this will be the case for Vecna ​​with Eleven, chasing her both for revenge but wanting her to join him too.

You see in ST VR that Henry loves obsessively regardless of the nature of the bond. Despite his anger, he has a lot of affection for El and as Jamie said, “Vecna ​​recognizes a lot of himself in Eleven”. He clearly feels alone, apart, but not really since Eleven was born. As he says to El :

"I'm so happy you are born"

She's something really important for him.

There is much more than a quest for revenge, hate to come i think for these 2 in S5.

[a-shadow-thinker]

Really good point !

Even more reinforced knowing that he wasn't himself but controlled by the Mind Flayer according to The First Shadow.

It's so heartbreaking...

So in S5 we are going to see Henry in human form talking to Holly outside the Creel house dressed as the white rabbit from Alice in wonderland with the stopwatch and everything and Holly will eventually wear an Alice in wonderland-type blue dress, and Ross posted a bts pic of a 50s Alice in wonderland painting inside Alice Creels room

Idk guys I think someone can't accept the death of his little sister

[a-shadow-thinker]

My personal thought is an redemption through death for Henry would open a truly tragic door at the conclusion of his character arc.

Especially considering the fact that all of his terrible actions were the work of the Mind Flayer, that he yearned for a normal life, that he was a sensitive child whose life was stolen by the Mind Flayer/Papa.

Dying for something he never wanted and which isn't trully his work inside him but manipulations ...

Like Ben Solo in SW who only aspired to a normal life, to be like his father, manipulated in the shadows since his birth.

Clearly a depressing, tragic and nehilistic ending for both.

On the other hand, him helping the little gang destroy the Mind Flayer who is behind all the evil and brings a new future to Hawkins !

That he can experience a normal life, find his place, no longer feel alone. (which i suspect he will try to experience in the 80's mindscape like Wanda Maximoff in WandaVision)

I want an incredible emotionally rich scene where Vecna ​​dies and reborn as Henry, the real Henry before all this supernatural stuff, and faces the Mind Flayer with the little team !

What an incredible twist that will make you fiber like this scene in TROS !

[a-shadow-thinker]

Could Henry be te prisonner ? 🤔

ST5 SPOILERS🚨

JOPPER PROPOSAL OMG, LUMAX ENDGAME🙂‍↕️ (and Byler), Elmax has scenes in the void, Lumax has a kiss scene in the 90's while watching a movie, Elmax has scenes in Henry's memory

Byler has scenes together in the 90's with Jopper, Jancy and Lumax

[a-shadow-thinker]

An outfit you think Henry would wear if he wasn’t evil and escaped with El?

going off of how he dressed billy while possessing him, i think he’d have like, a normal mild-mannered (if a little off-putting) neighbor with an equally unsettling little sister kinda vibe

[a-shadow-thinker]

Trailer on the first of the year because it's number 1 like Vecna 🤡

[a-shadow-thinker]

Not sure it goes in that direction, but if it does and from an ethical point the age difference is resolved through time travel, loop or temporal freeze (which is seems to be the case to me for Henry)

But i will say too :

"You're not alone / Neither are you" - Elhenry

Yeah, these two

My endgame couples as the treacherous bridge:

“Two headlights shine through the sleepless night and I will get you a- get you alone” - byler

“Your name has echoed through my mind and I just think you should think you should know” - rovickie

“That nothing safe is worth the fight and I will follow you follow you home” - jopper

“I’ll follow you follow you home” - jancy

[a-shadow-thinker]

If a trailer today, hope to see Vecna/Henry 😩🙏🕷