a-shadow-thinker

[a-shadow-thinker]

Holly with Henry in The Wonderland:

Rest of the gang on The Upside Down:

[a-shadow-thinker]

Who's *really* looking for Jane Hopper?

[a-shadow-thinker]

Unless I'm missing something, I think the military is probably looking for El and that explains the missing persons flyer. That's a picture of El from 1986 in Lenora and by the end of st4, her heads been clean shaven. Judging by some earlier leaks, El seems to have grew her bangs out by 1987 or 1988 (?) and no longer has fringes (assuming st5 takes place in the winter of 1987/88). Yes, my entire understanding of the st timeline relies on els hairstyles.

[a-shadow-thinker]

PROMO SEASON IS STARTING GUYS

[a-shadow-thinker]

So about the new poster ST just uploaded:

A couple noteworthy things right off the bat :

1) This poster is dated June 13 1986. Now correct me if im wrong, but wasn't it March/April when we left off? This is way after that. This is s5 territory. Explains the outfit description as well. Could the hooded jacket be this? We dont see El go near the highschool in s4 either.

2) The inclusion of missing CHILD and TEEN in the poster is so fucking suspicious regarding age and identity fuckery re: El and Jane.

3)

El saying this line is super interesting as compared to the Henry line in TFS " What are you going to do? Rewrite the ending?" directed to Joyce. So excited to see the connection there.

4) The "mysterious dissapearance" mentioned here vs The Vanishing of X X...something is really up there and suddenly the identity of Nell's character in s5 becomes even more obscure. Jane, is that you?

5) Why is her height listed as 5.4 if she is 5.6 IN THE PHOTO USED HERE. Unless of course (static noise)

Anyway. Normal hours 🔥💖

[a-shadow-thinker]

Guys I fear I ate this one….

[a-shadow-thinker]

I also wondered if the relationship between Henry and the Mindflayer would be more complex.

Something like the symbiotes in Marvel who have every interest in protecting their host.

It remains to be seen whether it is out of interest or empathy.

Maybe there's both, a more complex and twisted host-parasite relationship.

Even if i would say more about interest, Henry is his “portal”, his gateway to our dimension.

It's interesting to compare with Marvel's symbiotes, because it connects with Henry being compared to a fictional hero by Patty and being a hero with his powers.

You can relate this to Venom, who finally learned to be a hero, in Lethal Protector comic, in his own way even though it started out very badly (i was the big baddy after all).

There's a lot of work on that in this comic about Venom, what does it mean to be a hero? Can we redeem ourselves ? Can we be a better hero than the current hero (here Spiderman) ?

Perhaps these thoughts that be asked if Henry follows his redemption arc compared to Eleven.

thinking about Henry's grand mal scene in tfs, how once hes lying on the floor his body springs up and he asks for help (he only did this once out of 2 times I saw mccartney but still, i read that hes apparently hes done it before I saw tfs for the first time so..)

before that however, he asks brenner to "get him back there", I was thinking about it and now I'm wondering, was that Henry, or the mindflayer? why would Henry want to go back to somewhere where he has to fight for control just to see dimension x? what if he was so weak after and during his seizure that the mindflayer took control, and him asking for help was trying to break free from the mindflayer's control for a split second to ask for help? Henry only starts seizing after his trauma is mentioned by brenner (e.g. "right next to the scientists body" yada yada whatever he said), so there is a chance that the seizure could have been psychogenic due to said trauma and fear of reliving it (as we know the mindflayer utilises henry's negative emotions)

or rather a fight for control because as soon as Henry let's his emotion show the mindflayer is already trying to take control of his body, thus causing what looks like a seizure but infact, is just Henry trying to keep control over his own body.

or what if it was the opposite? what if it was the mindflayer asking for help? I'm sure @/waumbgus03 talked about the mindflayer trying to protect its host, thus why it killed Virginia as she was someone who made both Henry and the mindflayer feel unsafe, so what if in a last effort to gain control of the situation, it asked for help? in an attempt save its vessel so it wouldnt be lost too

if this makes no sense just tell me I'm going on a silly rant

[a-shadow-thinker]

I wonder if the Mind Flayer will personally be after Eleven in S5, will seek to make her his own.

After all, she kicked Henry's butt twice and her ability to open portals is very valuable.

After the events of S4, the Mind Flayer could see in El a much better puppet to accomplish his designs than Henry and start to neglect him and be less interested in him (which could for example loosen the grip of mental control on him).

Maybe the Mind Flayer can stir up Henry's anger and resentment to get him to capture her and get rid of him to take El as a "general" ?

Or take 100% control of his Vecna puppet ​​to recover her himself by imprisoning Henry with the others in the Mindscape.

This is something that can cause Henry to turn against the Mind Flayer and help El. On the one hand because as has been shown several times, his attachment to her is very strong, and because he has realized that he has been manipulated/abused and the desire for revenge will be very powerful. Also for compassion, that she does not suffer the same fate as him (which has already been shown when he tries to make her escape from the lab)

I think the Mind Flayer can be brought in to torment El in S5 in the same way as Henry in The First Shadow to tip her over and make her his own.

Distort her reality and above all (plot element which can highlight the human aspect of the show) separate her from her friends who are her anchor point in the normal, in the human outside of these supernatural stories.

Put dark thoughts in her head, especially at critical moments which under the intense emotions she will feel can lead her to do terrible things (like killing) when she did not want to do that and once she she calms down, she's completely devastated. Reinforcing the impression that she is a monster, that she is like Vecna ​​in the end and that she belongs to the Upside Down. Situations that can create misunderstandings, fuel conflicts with people close to her and ultimately lead to tragic situations like Henry.

A development that could shed light on Henry's past in The First Shadow, draw a parallel and how from a human point of view to deal with that, lead them both to connect with each other strongly in S5 too, have thoughts seek answers to questions (especially on El’s side). Paradoxically, this could backfire on the Mind Flayer, bringing them together in their suffering and leading them to team up to defeat him.

Henry and El will both serve as a rope for each other to come up from this hell, in particular not thanks to their powers, but to their humanity.

And you can see through this quote from Jamie, that Henry's humanity will be addressed in S5 :

I think too, Will's important role in S5 can manifest itself in this aspect, that he will feel what is happening where others may think that in the end, El is like Vecna.

Will is clearly defined by this ability of "clairvoyance", a bit like the wise man, the Gandalf of the team (which is not surprising, since he is the wizard)

We think a lot that he will have powers, and if on the contrary it is his humanity that will perhaps save the day ? He has a strong emotional connection with El (and psychic with Mind Flayer too, he's like a bridge) and it may be this human sensitive aspect that will help to defeat the Mind Flayer.

[a-shadow-thinker]

Thoughts on the motivations and nature of the Mind Flayer

I continue my analysis of the Mind Flayer a little and compare with the Reapers of Mass Effect to get a possible idea of ​​what the Mind Flayer wants, how he works, and what makes him a relevant big bad, interesting for ST.

Here are some quotes from Sovereign the Reaper in ME i would like to compare with the potential goal of the Mind Flayer to support my comments in a previous post :

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own, you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign!"

"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it - and you will end because we demand it."

"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence."

This one is interesting because you can make it in parallel with the hive mind of the Upside Down.

I think Henry's ability to "absorb and keep his victims inside his mine" is an ability of the Mind Flayer that he uses through Vecna ​​who is his "collector".

Collectors sare also a species indoctrinated and physically mutated by the Reapers to harvest Humans so they can be absorbed to create a new Reaper.

Like Vecna, the Collectors assemble their victim on their ship, grouped in these "cocoons" to then be absorbed and form a new born Reaper.

Parallel that you can make with the real Mind Flayers of DnD who are the main inspiration for the ST Mind Flayer (so, relevant to look at their side to try to understand the motivations of the Mind Flayer of ST)

I don't think the Mind Flayer wants to create another Mind Flayer, but it's harvest, may have a goal of strengthening his powers/abilities to "evolve" something in him and achieve a still obscure objective.

And at the same time to ensure his control and the smooth running of Henry's collection mission, he can feed the illusions that he has implanted in him through his fears/anger, etc… by making Henry believe that he will bring something better, "liberate" them and (this is my theory for S5) regroup them in a better world where they will finally be happy to free themselves from the suffering of human existence in the real world, the famous mindscape / Camazotz ( potentially in the memories of Henry if we make the bridge with the Mindscape of the 80s)

Something similar when A.L.I.E in the show The 100, traps the minds of the people she has indoctrinated into a dream world where they are happy, fulfilling her promise to free them from their suffering. In return, she takes control of their body in reality. Maybe what will happen to the people of Hawkins in S5.

I even wonder if Henry is himself a prisoner of his Mindscape too, and it' i's the Mind Flayer or an indoctrinated Henry who is in control of Vecna.

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."

This quote can be an idea of what the Mind Flayer things about humans.

I also think that the fact that the Mind Flayer is at first glance "devoid of will" when we encounter him outside of what is presented of him to us in ST VR may testify a supremacist arrogance.

That there is no point in communicating with these "inferior creatures".

Apart from some, who are not his equal, but who are of interest to him so that he deigns to exchange words (Henry ).

Also the terms "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh" can only send us back to season 3, with the Mind Flayer formed from the flesh of sacrificed people. Humans are just pieces of flesh to use, meat for the Mind Flayer.

The Mind Flayer is, like the Reapers, a non-organic entity whose needs and considerations are radically different from those of organic humans.

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."

Also note this very destruction-chaos side in Sovereign's words which is clearly found in the Mind Flayer's way of thinking in ST VR.

Something that also sounds, very Lovecraftian entity. And with this connection that we can make about the ambitions of the Mind Flayer with those of the Lovecratian creatures, you clearly have through your non-human antagonist a very human dimension, a connection to the deep psyche of the unconscious, because it is what Lovecraftian creatures embody.

And once again what is expressed in this post about the potential motivations of the Mind Flayer, can only strengthen the humanity of the characters, highlight what is good in our species, highlight the intentions of our species, its sensitivity against the pragmatic and predatory insensitivity that the Mind Flayer reflects.

Highlighting our species, what makes it beautiful and would give meaning to not letting it be swallowed up by the Upside Down.

[a-shadow-thinker]

I was talking about Mass Effect in another post and i just thought of something related to Sovereign and Saren that can connect to the Mind Flayer and Henry and give us some possible leads.

Sovereign is a Reaper that Saren discovers, who acts like a "an help" for him, that he will do what he want.

But it's a lie he wants to gain his trust, that he lowers his "mental barriers" because Saren has a strong mind, so that he can enter it and control it better.

In Mass Effect you have a phenomenon similar to the Mind Flayer's power: indoctrination.

It is an intrusive mode of corruption of organic minds, a cerebral "reprogramming" involving the physical and mental conditioning of the subject.

I think that's what happened to Henry. This “cerebral reprogramming” and physical too.

In Mass Effect, Saren doubt thanks to the hero's requests and try to resisting indoctrination.

After that, the Reaper suggest Saren add cybernetic implants to make him "more powerful".

In reality these implants will simply allow him to strengthen his control over his mind, but also control his body at one point.

What if this was also the case for Henry through the mutations, the vines, which transformed him into Vecna? A promise of power (the ability of the Mindscape through the vines planted behind his back for example), to "evolve" from the Mind Flayer to get what he wants, but in reality a way to better control Henry ? To absorb him into the hive of the Upside Down ?

We can notice that there are vines torn off at the location of his fall at the end of S4, which were burned... What if it had "removed control implants from the Mind Flayer" and can help Henry to have a more clear spirit ?

Also, Saren is aware that the Reaper is trying to mentally control him at one point.

He decides to make the Reaper believe that he is under control to try to counter his plans, to save the galaxy.

Unfortunately, we later discover that this was a manipulation by the Reaper, who made him in illusions, believe that he was in control when in reality he was only strengthening his hold on Saren.

Saren also thinks that what he is doing is good things, that it is of his own accord, that these are his ideas.

But here you also discover that it was all a mental manipulation of the Reaper to make him even more vulnerable to control and make him do what he wants.

Clearly the path that emerged for Henry with The First Shadow.

Also, the Reaper brings Saren killed his best friend, who was like a brother to him, who will never hurts...

It reminds something...

[a-shadow-thinker]

Another thought about the Mind Flayer, can it really be categorized as just "pure evil antagonist" ? Make the story worthless, that the story can be better if the villain is human, etc...

I think that we are dealing with an entity, which in its thought mechanisms, does not do things out of pure cruelty, the desire to do evil like a standard villain, but follows a logic that is specific to it.

To illustrate my point, i think about the Reapers in Mass Effect and i find that there are a lot of similarities between them and the Mind Flayer.

It's terrible from our point of view, but from theirs it follows an inflexible logic which is not based on emotional reflections but a goal pushed further by a logic contrary to human values ​​(which is what is put forward).

Which also reinforces the idea that human aspects are the key to defeating the Mind Flayer which clearly, when you encounter him in ST VR makes me think a lot of an AI in his interactions, he seems empty of emotions.

Look at Mass Effect, the main villain isn't human. (even if Cerberus (a human terrorist organization) sucks ! ) Does that prevent us from delivering a story about humans and super powerful emotions about it ? No !

[a-shadow-thinker]

I think there was a misunderstanding on some point.

First of all, the fact that the Mind Flayer is ultimately the big bad of ST doesn't in any way take away the human dimension of the story, on the contrary it strengthens it and brings a more original dimension.

It reinforces it in the sense that if you look at things with more finesse in a second reading plan, the Mind Flayer embodies through its actions on the human characters, a personified projection of the fears, of the psychological suffering which lies dormant in our unconscious.

He's the pivot point which will bring the human characters who are impacted by his actions, to express this human aspect, this human aspect laid bare which will face its trials by showing all its beauty just like all its horror.

He's a spotlight that will highlight humans, show their abilities to demonstrate bravery, strength, to grow, to show compassion from our heroes.

There is nothing problematic for the Mind Flayer about being the big bad in a human story, it's through the emotions of your human characters, their story, how you appeal to the public through them you will tell this human story.

It doesn't pass through its antagonism, but through its characters who live this adventure, with whom the audience identifies and feels this humanity in them which echoes theirs.

You tell a human story through the emotions that your human characters make you feel, through their trials and how they will react and come out of these trials, how it will impact them and finaly you, the public, what you feel inside in echo of your own humanity.

For Henry, yes he can be completely forced to do these things by the Mind Flayer.

As you can see in ST VR, the Mind Flayer distorts Henry's psychic reality.

Others have previously carried out relevant analyzes on this subject.

Which leads to something very insidious, a distortion of reality for Henry, in what he feels and experiences, what he wants, leading him to think he is in control

(to be able to better control him, what a perfect puppet is the one who is unaware that she is being controlled, no risk of resistance and rebellion),

making him believe that what he is doing is right, leading him into dead ends where he has no choice.

I use this example often, but it’s the one that sticks so well.

See Kylo Ren, Palpatine whispers, torments him since he was in his mother's womb ! All his life he has had dark thoughts, that he is a horrible person, that he hurts others, that no one likes him, etc...

At the beginning the character rejects his ideas, refuses to believe in them and attaches himself to the light.

But events caused by Palpatine will force him to believe his dark ideas, events which will isolate him and lead him to think that he can only be a bad person and that his place is in darkness.

You have a very similar pattern with Henry, his dark thoughts were perhaps already latent, but the Mind Flayer blew on him, blew on the embers intentionally to force him to do what he wants, to make him vulnerable too to his manipulations and make him think these horrible things.

The Mind Flayer clearly exhibits predatory behavior.

I am convinced that season 5 will show us since we will explore Henry's memories in the 80s, Henry's suffering for the loss, his sister in particular (someone pointed out that Holly's kidnapping was due to fact that he has not mourned, that he is in this delirium of taking her for his sister), that he never wanted that and that all of this is the work of the Mind Flayer who used this instability/weakness to manipulate him as he pleases.

In the scene where Henry scares his mother with the spiders you clearly see young Alice's foresight about this "you're not Henry".

that too, from a human point of view, is strong and resonates with many people.

Depression, autism, loneliness, abusive grooming, the dark side of the human spirit, etc...

It's in exaggerated form in the fictional framework of the show, but we clearly have these human aspects highlighted.

This goes back to what i was saying above, don't just see the Mind Flayer as "a monster/supernatural creature" but as a metaphor for the dark iceberg of the human psyche.

And that’s understandable.

It honestly has a lot more personality than a basic human, especially in a fantasy series !

I also think we have 2 plots to distinguish :

You actually have the human with all the political/military intrigue with the Russians in particular, but you also have the "magic" intrigue, the quest of the hero from the famous initiatory tale on El's side (with Will probably also in the S5 in view of what is teased about the character)

And with the DnD inspiration and many things relating to adventure in the show, to fantasy, you clearly have the hero's initiatory journey in addition to the human dimension.

But both complement each other anyway...

After all, isn't a hero defined by his human values ?

[a-shadow-thinker]

louis…louis answer my calls…

[a-shadow-thinker]

I just thought of something

There are two patterns :

Henry / Patty => Anakin / Padmé

Henry / Eleven => Kylo / Rey

What if ST proposed a revisit of the 2 ?

The SW refs are very striking in ST, not surprisingly if there is an echo also at the of these central elements of the galactic saga.

There is a duo of a Force User (Anakin) / Psychic Person (Henry) with a normal person (Padmé and Patty) and two Force Users / two people with psychic abilities.

In SW although the central relationship of the last trilogy ended in tragedy, it brings a "repair" about what has led the first relationship to the galaxy but also mutually for the characters, to Rey and Kylo.

Henry and Patty, are different from Anakin and Padmé on some point, however just like Anakin, the "loss" of Patty made Henry drop, definitely makes him sink because the part of light that kept him disappeared.

Is that, just like Reylo who is a reverse Anidala, Eleven can bring light back into Henry ? Repair him and also repair herself thanks to him (a mutual understanding of "being apart" of "sharing these powers" at a moment when she can be really lost and feel alone, "apart" in S5).

This process may also be possible with Patty return (which would be cool!) but I think in view of the stakes for the characters, it will be something that will happen between Henry and El, because both share an intimately linked arc in reverse mirroring, and the conclusion to "repair" will be through each other.

It's to be taken with a pinch of salt because we don't know what will happen between Henry and El in the S5, what form can take their relationship (even if reconciliation is very possible).

It's an idea that has a lot of charm especially with all the references very evident visually and scenariastically Black romanticism, Beauty and The Beast trope.

Which had surprised me the first time i saw S4, i didn't expect it, it reminded me my first watch of The Last Jedi and i'm really curious about Henry and El now. Why all these refs so big as an elephant in a room ? Where they want to go with these characters ?...

We have to see if this is a possible direction and how it can be taken in relation to certain parameters that can be problematic, but it can be really interesting and powerful !

as if i haven’t been saying for fucking ages that h3ntty is the same as miIeven. lol. lmao, even.

[a-shadow-thinker]

Interesting... 👀

[a-shadow-thinker]

Well, Eleven definitely his heart here.

He really looks a dead body, more than the incarnation of death.

A dead body suspended from strings like a disarticulated puppet who moves as desired by the Mind Flayer.

But there is something that can bring the puppet back to life, be an anchor and help him recover his stolen soul.

[a-shadow-thinker]

"They won't have a reconciliation arc" and then this is the intro to the 2.5 hour episode in which Henry/Vecna/whoever and El demonstrate their unwillingness to actually kill one another: