#Katya Gonchorav

[louisinart]

so i’ve been getting a lot of asks from people who don’t know about the Great Katya Debate and so I just wanted to clear this up for those who are just getting into the fandom now: Quick context anyone who hasn’t seen Goncharov (watch it!) here’s some context: during the Boat Scene Katya is gravely wounded. She makes it out alive but then later dies of causes that aren’t made explicit in the text. Some people believe she succumbed to the injuries she got on the boat and others have theorized that there was an unrelated cause (an illness she was hiding, offscreen attack etc.). Andrey is with her when she dies, and is the one to tell Goncharov of her death during their final confrontation. This news drives him further down his path of unraveling and ultimately contributes to his eventual demise.

But here’s the thing: some people don’t think she actually died.  There are a number of subtextual clues that imply Katya faked her death in order to find freedom from the mob. The biggest piece of evidence towards this theory is the fruitstand scene where she tries to talk Sofia into running away with her. From what we see in the rest of the film, Katya knows that there’s no way she could walk away from the mob. Her marriage to Goncharov has her so deeply entangled that she’d be tracked down and killed almost immediately. Hell her brother leaves Russia just to find her in Naples within weeks, and he’s not even trying that hard. The most text-aligned read of this scene is that Katya is fantasizing, imagining a future neither she nor Sofia believes in (hence why Sofia brushes her off so casually), but more radical fans think she was hinting at a broader plan -- to fake her death and finally free herself from The Life. There are other hints to this, best found by analysing things like her leitmotif and the way Andrey discusses her death.

Fans of this theory really have fun with it, devising how she might have done it, who might have helped her (a personal favorite of mine is that she got help from icepick joe before he died), and what might have happened after her escape.

However it’s deeply controversial with those die-hard fans who are attached to the text of the film. I’m ultimately more of this camp, because the thematic resonance of Katya’s character arc really gets thrown off if she actually gets away in the end. Other critiques include: her survival damages the film’s credibility as a tragedy, it’s a modern-day/corporate-feminist/’girlbossified’ reduction of a complex and deeply flawed character, it would leave too many plot holes for a Scorcese project, etc. (There are also some other, more bigoted, reasons people don’t like the theory but i don’t endorse that bullshit and therefore won’t be talking about them here)

This got further complicated when Gonchorav ii: Katya’s revenge was recently announced. Where those who believe Katya lived cheered the announcement as absolution, the katya-died fans immediately got up in arms. There have been claims that Scorsese is selling out what was once his magnum opus, and bending to the will of the newer fanbase. Fans were losing their minds on twitter in all directions, but it didn’t get that much press bc it was the same week daddy musk started burning the place down.

Ultimately this is one of those fandom debates that people get seriously worked up about and will run in circles over with seemingly no end. I have my opinion but all the infighting realllly turns me off so I try to stay out of it. It’s also worth noting that most of the Katya-lives camp are younger fans who saw the movie in recent years, while the Katya-dies camp are more likely to be film buffs (the good and the bad) who saw the movie either when they were young or when it released.

[baggebythesea]

[i-am-iron-man-3000]

I think that we need to cyber bully at least one studio into making us a Goncharov reboot for the 50th anniversary.

[poetrythathurtsmysoul]

Goncharov ending with the ticking of the clock slowly stopping until we're left with silence is just one of the many things that makes it a masterpiece.

Like it just ties it all together. Because they were out of time. They were always out of time. They've been out of time since the beginning.

[isoceles-square]

me: sees any post about goncharov

[i-m-crazy]

Did u all know about this?????????

Actual Overview, Cast and Trailers

[m-is-for-mj]

Im sorry the scene in goncharov where Katya and Sofia are buying apples at the market like??? Apples??? Fruit??? Could you GET any more symbolism packed into that scene???

[banquetsinger]

Katya has never done anything wrong in her life

[cowpokezuko]

can we talk about color and relationships in Goncharov?

 the wallpaper in the Goncharovs’ bedroom has a sickly green striped pattern? Symbolizing both the way that their relationship has soured and rotted, yet they are both still trapped in it? It a rotting stinking prison, yet they still go to bed with each other at the end of the day. IDK if this is how Scorsese intended, but I think it also reflects the way that they are trapped in heterosexuality even though they are clearly happier with their homoerotic relationships. 

Andrey’s color pallette is constantly being tinged with red. Whether it be blood or the fish he buys in the market scene or the dining table with the red tablecloth and napkins in Andrey’s house where they sit and eat said fish with red wine and blood oranges with their dessert. Usually this red shows up when Goncharov shows up. This red contrasts the green color palette of the Goncharov home and represents the duality of violence and love between Goncharov and Andrey. Their past passion and allegiance is shown in the warm orange tones of the flashbacks and the violence, betrayal, hurt, and the lingering love is shown in the darker, bloody reds. 

Sofia on the other hand, is bathed in blues. Her apartment overlooks the blue Mediterranean and her walls and dishes are all baby blue. Even her clothes are a softer blue. They provide a shock of color that is so drastically different than the color schemes of the main characters, especially the Goncharovs. Her distance from the Mafia and main conflict at the beginning of the movie provides solace for Katya, and as she gets dragging into the plot, the blues get darker and sadder. Yet she still has accents of those original baby blues. Her silk scarf that she gives to Katya and her driving gloves are still that soft blue. The blues show the melancholic relationship between her and Katya, even if it is safer than Katya and Goncharov. They were always going to be a tragic love story. 

These gays just make me sad ok. 

[umm-whats-going-on]

I don't think y'all are ready to talk about how Katya's and Gonchorav's marriage was just to uphold their beards and when Gonchorav betrayed their marriage for his lover it was inevitable since they were forced into the relationship in the first place

[kitkat-the-muffin]

Hey for April Fools can we get Goncharov trending again?

Maybe claim there’s a prequel made in 1980 recently unearthed and it’s not as good as the original but provides a pretty good new perspective

Call it “Michailov” and it’s about Katya’s upbringing alongside her brother Valery

[sad-gay-cowboy]

Something I don't think is talked enough about is the countless instances of parallel between Goncharov (1973) and Re-Animator (1985), it's not even trying to be subtle about it.

Like yes, Re-Animators main source of material is H.P. Lovecrafts Herbert West - Re-Animator, but visually and theatrically, it's so clearly heavily influenced by Goncharov, even continuing to Bride (not Beyond Re-Reanimator but we don't really talk about that one).

The constant theme of futility and destructiveness of what love can be. The fact that both Dan and Goncharov are just as and in some ways more fucked up then Herbert and Andrey are.

The fact that Herbert and Andrey both are on such an incredibly destructive path, not destructive just for themselves but the people around them, and they know they're on this path, they just don't care. They are aware of this at every choice they make, but it is their choice and constantly through their lives they are told what they can do so if they can make a choice that is their own, they will and damn everything else.

The parallel between Dan and Meg's relationship and Goncharov and Katya's relationship. The fact that in both relationships there is love there, there is a relationship but not the one that is expected of them. In both cases they are in relationship purely through circumstance, and in both cases there is a point where they think this relationship is what they want but in both cases realize that it isn't who they are. They aren't what the other needs.

Both Dan and Goncharov show such resistance to Herbert and Andrey, and while in Re-Animators case they were never able to be more explicit about it, we see briefly how it would have played out if it had been allowed to with Goncharov and Andrey, for the short time they did have together.

The clear similarities between Meg and Katya, both pushed aside by someone they sacrificed apart of themselves for. Despite the fact that they both were convinced for awhile that they did love Dan and Goncharov, it was so much work for them, so much work they didn't even realize they were putting into it until Dan and Goncharov met Herbert and Andrey, and saw how little effort they were willing to put into the relationship in return. The need from both of them to please their fathers, because they do love their dads. The lack of agency and character they are percieved to have because no one ever thought they needed it.

It's everything.

God when the two brainrots hit.

[bubblemixer]

AU where Goncharov and Andrey have hits on them and have to put their differences aside to learn who put the hit out, and survive.

It was Katya. With Sofia’s help, of course. She just wanted them to deal with their supreme UST and thought this was the best option. Nothing pulls two people together faster than a sense of danger and urgency.

(Essentially, Katya wants to lock them in the same room together but these two are too stupid to realize it and we’re more likely to kill each other than kiss, so she took it an extra step further)

[i-am-iron-man-3000]

y’all think they’ll do a remake in honour of the 50th anniversary of Goncharov?

[a-bastard-bitch]

me: everyone in Goncharov is flawed and has done bad things, thats the whole point of the movie

also me: katya has never done anything wrong in her LIFE

[starscreamingg]

Something I'm thinking about in regards to goncharov is that like

If it was ever really made. Like an actual real film.

Would it be even half as inspiring as the theoretical gonchorav that we all hold in our hearts