#why don't you love me atlus?

[cyziel]

i'm thinking about yosuke again and it makes me so annoyed because of how hard atlus dropped the ball with him. it's very obvious that they made his character arc with the intention of him being a closeted high schooler in the year 2011 that struggles with internalized homophobia who learns to finally accept himself, but then randomly decided to cut out the payoff to all of the setup so it just makes him extremely homophobic. the whole game is about accepting the part of yourself that you hate, and yosuke coming to terms with his bisexuality throughout the course of the story fits into that theme perfectly.

it's small stuff like this and so many other moments that make much more sense with the context of him originally being planned on having a romance route. he projects his idea of "manliness" and what's "right" onto both others and himself to make up for the social stigma placed onto him by society; he's trying to convince himself that he's "normal" so he can fit in. him feeling ostracized because he's the manager of junes' son is a blatant parallel to this, and the two of them could've easily been intertwined.

"i like you" in japanese is "ore, omae ga suki da" 《俺、 お前 が 好き だ》 -> known as the most common form of a love confession in japan and is almost always used romantically, especially given the context

this is an obviously repressed queer kid who has been struggling to grasp his sexuality and growing feelings for yu; there is so much subtext throughout the game that has all culminated to this moment—or at least, should've culminated to this moment. but it didn't.

funnily enough, i don't think it was atlus projecting their bigotry onto him at first until p4g, but making a genuine attempt at a good character arc that, much like the rest of persona 4, misses the mark in the worst way possible despite being so close to saying something meaningful (cough kanji and naoto). it's like they chickened out at the last second, but "forgot" to take out the parts that just make him a homophobic asshole with the context removed—and then even doubled down on it in p4g lmao. the thing i'm confused about is that hoshino (the former director of the persona series who is extremely disgusting and bigoted) was... already in the company when the lines were recorded??? so i'm baffled as to why they were allowed to come up with it in the first place before deciding against it.

this could've been really great and realistic representation that could've helped other queer people who were going through the same thing yosuke was—especially in the year 2008—and i'm super disappointed that they decided to cut it. persona 4 is about confronting the problematic elements about yourself, and i cannot think of a greater example of this than yosuke and his internalized homophobia.

(bonus: the closet is made out of glass)

[yeen-meteor]

I want to take a moment to try to express why i appreciate Haru's sadism as an actual serious part of her characterization and not just a funny contrast joke and 'yay girl violence!' don't get me wrong i love me some yay girl violence for the sake of it, but like. i think there's a lot to work with there for genuine drama writing, too, not just comic relief and i want to talk about it! (cw sugimura)

for all of haru's backstory and her life with her father, sure she's rich and has a lot of privileges, but the one thing she completely lacks is any sort of control. Everything about her life is being decided for her, her father has decided on the shape of her entire future, and she can't do anything to change it - she's being raised just for the sake of being outright sold as a sex slave trophy wife to a perverted creep who is certainly too rich and powerful to ever face legal trouble for marital rape. She's going through the motions, enjoying what she can of the life she has while she still has it, completely hopeless in the face of this horrifying future that other people are forcing her into. Her will means nothing, what she wants means nothing.

And then the Phantom Thieves come along, and they give her the power to make her will matter, to fight for her own freedom and happiness. And that power comes in the shape of violence, physically fighting images of all the things and people standing in her way.

But more than that, she starts to feel 'shivers of excitement' when she hears shadows begging and pleading beneath her. She feels what it's like to have something absolutely, pathetically desperate to make her stop, to deny her what she wants - and to bask in the feeling that she doesn't have to listen, she's the strong one, she can shut them the fuck up with an axe through the skull because their will, their selfish desire, their plan for her doesn't matter anymore, her will, Haru's will matters. It's catharsis, it's intoxicating, it's a rich and indulgent feeling of real actual control and the freedom that comes with it, something she's been denied all her life, and it's probably an unhealthy way to get that feeling but who cares? these are just shadows!

And that catharsis and relief and self-assured confidence she gets from that just makes her better able to be her sweetest, kindest, purest self around the people she loves! It doesn't undermine the sweet person she is, it helps it!

And then, she makes the choice to try to cure her father's brain-rotting greed and see if there's anything worth salvaging in his heart. It might not be the best choice, it could certainly be argued about, but it's her choice, it's her will, and she finally, finally feels like she's able to make that mean something-

and Akechi takes the choice away from her, and forces her to live in the future he decided for her.

I think when people write the dynamic between Akechi and Haru, they can sometimes miss the forest for the trees - 'you killed my father', without the underlying 'this was the first time i believed i ever had a choice in my own life, and you took it away from me and fucking crushed it before my eyes'. I've also seen it done very well too, and I love it! but i think a lot of writers are sleeping on the potential a bit, of haru & akechi focused stories, or even of haru as a source of drama and an interesting supporting character in shuake stories. In general, haru's potential for anger, frustration, violent desires and just a need to feel in control of her own life has a lot of potential in drama writing!

Atlus certainly dropped the ball on the akechi and haru dynamic, and kept the sadism thing as mostly comic relief, but Persona canons are all half-realized outlines of good ideas just begging for fic writers to come and actually flesh them out, anyway, so ah well!

all i hope for is that if you're a persona writer that doesn't know what to do with haru or how to use her, or doesn't pay her much mind, maybe this might inspire you or give you a clearer idea of how to write her dramatic side!

[taldigi]

y'know, that does make me curious. sorry if you've talked about this before, but how do you feel about fics and ideas that just completely fuck up souyo?

like complete ego death, that's two different dudes, this is misrepresentative shuake level stuff?

Persona 4 is old enough as a fandom and as a property that I feel like it's inevitable. Atlus themselves also tend to waver a bit on characterization at times-- so it's not totally unacceptable that things vary so much.

Yu, as the player character, tends to get a little more leeway in terms of warbling characterization. But some of the worst outliers are when he's given a mean or domineering attitude. "Chad narukami" is kind of the worst thing to happen to the character.

Giving him that kind of attitude sort of negates some of his more endearing aspects, like his calm attitude, his endearing & pure love of his weird little hobbies, how much he loves his little sister or his friends. Or his love of Inaba as a place or a people.

One of the few things that will make me close a piece of Persona 4 fan work immediately Is to put the implication that Yu is perfectly fine with being away from his friends. Tbh If any wildcard is depicted this way, you're wrong actually. " He was grateful to go back to the city" my ass. But, in general all the different Yu variants are pretty great. From Level-Headed leader to kind of air-headed and everything in between.

Tho, I think the worst of it happens with Yosuke. Sometimes he's portrayed as incredibly like.. either timid and "uke" (I don't know another terminology that can portray what I'm thinking more succinctly than that) or completely stiff and inflexible and like...

I'm a big supporter of the idea that he has incredibly low self-esteem and self-worth issues but sometimes fics definitely go out of their way to kind of make it insufferable.

Another thing that does annoy me a little bit is when people blow the homophobia out of proportion. Like yeah- It's incredibly shitty behavior but.... Dude- he's still growing up. he's figuring shit out about himself and other people. He's also someone who is so desperate not to be alienated in a society that is going to crucify him if he acts a certain way-- and not just the gay one.

It's hard to remember that he's trying to impress his friends or establish an outward persona that will earn him admiration and respect. (Whether or not he actually gains that admiration through and respect is irrelevant) When the attitude he puts forward can be insufferable . But it is pretty clearly proven to be showy and false in his private interactions with Yu.

The worst violator of this in my opinion Is a story I read once where Yu had been so frightened or upset by Yosuke's homophobic attitude that he receded into Naoto and Kanji's company exclusively. It read like a fucking... Miraculous ladybug salt fic levels of ooc.

Oh and another thing... I'm not immune to a good woobie event or something that is absolutely dripping in that 2000s emo angst sauce (don't get me wrong I love a weepy emo yosuke as a treat) but What makes yosuke crying particularly poignant is that he's not one to cry. He goes out of his way to let things roll off his back and react to things with a smile and a wink (or even anger)-- which is why it's such a special scene that he cries so freely and lets Yu hug him.

[all-pacas]

still playing metaphor obsessively and

first of all, if any of ya'll like the persona games, play this. it is so fucking atlus. it is fantasy jrpg persona. it has social links and everything but it's so good. it has a legitimately great battle/job system - i'm finding i need to swap my class/party comp constantly and that's really cool, it does fun things with persona tropes like the calendar system (you have to account for travel times now!), it's so fun to play

but also oh man the story!!!! it's not what i expected but it's so atlus. it's literally just politics: the game. what makes a good king, the game. and it's dark as shit, too. one party member is the requisite orphan with a doomed town. another is a grieving parent.

INDIRECT SPOILERS THRU SOIREE:

the big bad villain louis kills the king in the opening cutscene, but he's a utilarian, he's the only one who isn't racist, who believes in treating people equally. and yes, he kills people. and he killed stohl's parents indirectly and admits it and doesn't care because it's for the greater good. he's fascinating. i love what the game is setting up here. making you ask if he has a point

the game goes hard on the fantasy racism, too. like it's a fairly common trope in games but no, this isn't glossed over. the party member's dead child was murdered brutally by racists. discrimination is everywhere. the protagonist can't go five feet without being looked down on. the system is so corrupt, the guards are corrupt, minorities are just straight up killed, and so it goes back to evil louis and like! huh! maybe the old king should have been killed! huh!

also i met a minor minor character named Roger the Libertarian and i don't know why but that made me laugh

[vashtijoy]

after makoto awakens, ryuji and makoto make a bon jovi reference in a group chat. what were they talking about in japanese?

Hi! This was originally a reference to a song called THE NIGHT (１５の夜 juugo no yoru), by the late Yutaka Ozaki.

Ryuji 俺も盗んだバイク���走り出してえ… ore mo nusunda baiku de hashiridashitee… It'll be just like the song! "I'm a phantom, on a steel horse I ride…" I could let loose on a stolen bike too... Makoto 人聞き悪いこと言わないで 別に盗んでないわ hitogiki warui koto iwanaide, betsu ni nusunde nai wa Don't say such things. And for the record, I am most certainly not "wanted." You'll give me a bad name. Anyway, it's not stolen.

translators of Atlus West, "you give love a bad name" was right there

人聞き悪いこと言わないで hitogiki warui koto iwanaide literally means "don't say disrespectable things", but in practice seems to be used to scold people for saying things that make you look disrespectable!

Also, note that (as per usual) the Japanese script doesn't feel the need to hit the player over the head with the fact that they're referencing a song.

This song appears to be pretty well-known, and according to Japanese Wikipedia, is relevant to our interests:

This song was written based on Ozaki's experience of being found smoking a cigarette at his junior high school when he was 14 years old, or of one of his classmates being cut by a teacher with clippers because he had long hair, and running away from home with his friends in rebellion. Ozaki says that he ran away from home in the middle of the night with 10 friends and rode around the city on a motorcycle, but later, with nowhere to go, he was found by a teacher while taking a nap at a car scrapyard and was taken into custody... However, according to the diary of his father, Kenichi Ozaki , it is clear that the song was actually inspired by a friend of Ozaki's who ran away from home. Kenichi's diary states that the runaway occurred in October 1978, and that he "searched for his friend until 3 a.m.", and that "this is the incident that Yutaka later sang about in '15 no Yoru'.

Here's the original (rather sad) lyric. You can see why Ryuji might like it.

盗んだバイクで走り出す　行き先もと解らぬまま nusunda baiku de hashiridasu, ikisaki moto wakaranu mama I'll let loose on a stolen bike, still not knowing where I'll go, 暗い夜の帳の中へ kurai yoru no tobari no naka e Into the night's dark curtain, 誰にも縛られたくないと　逃げ込んだこの夜に dare ni mo shibararetakunai to, nigekonda kono yoru ni I said I didn't want anyone to tie me down, the night I ran away, 自由になれた気がした　15の夜 jiyuu ni nareta ki ga shita, juugo no yoru I thought I could be free, that night I was 15.

revision history

Click here for the latest version.

v1.1 (2024/10/07)—forgot the wikipedia link!

v1.0 (2024/10/07)—first posted.

[loveromeo1641]

Ok I JUST finished persona 5 so here's all my thoughts and ramblings because I NEED to put this somewhere (none of my friends have played the game and I'm going insane) (I also currently don't have any persona 5 moots so you know......)

Major spoilers (obviously)

I despise Kamoshida. They did a REALLY fucking good job of making him hateable. Like for me personally, all the other palace-owners aren't nearly as detestable as Kamoshida is. I feel like it's because we see Kamoshida's actions directly hurting people in a way that no other palace-owner is shown, if that makes sense. Like Madarame's actions do hurt Yusuke very directly but it's just not the same vibes. I really absolutely hate Kamoshida and I'm glad he got justice.

I love the original group of four. I do like all the characters that come after them and join the group, but those four have a special place in my heart. They're iconic.

I love Ann's story during the first palace and I feel terrible for her BUT it grosses me out how the creators continue to sexualize her (and other female characters) for laughs throughout the game. Like why the fuck did they think any of those scenes were they have to wear extremely minimal clothing was necessary. It's so fucking weird. You can't just write a character who's plot point is that she's forced into uncomfortable sexual situations, and then force her into uncomfortable sexual situations for a joke. It's not only not funny, it's fucking disgusting.

Speaking of which, can Ryuji and Morgana stop making weird comments or suggesting weird ideas? I get it's supposed to be funny, but it's just uncomfortable.

Yusuke is the gayest man I've ever seen good god.

I want to date men in the game, Atlus, come on. Stop being homophobic, let me date a man. Let me date Ryuji please

I love Futuba. She's like my younger sister and I would kill for her. Which made me really fucking grossed out when the romance started happening. Like what the fuck was that huh. I'm sorry, you can't just have Ren (I think that's he's name) and Futuba have a siblings relationship like the entire game (not to mention their basically step-siblings), and then all of a sudden turn it romantic.

Speaking of which, it's kinda weird that you can date your teacher and doctor (and the other adults). Like not shaming anyone for picking those options cause the doctors hot as hell, but why would a teacher think it's ok to date their student or a doctor date their underage client. There's nothing wrong with choosing them to date, especially if you (the player) are an adult, but it's still weird that like four different adult women want to date you.

I've seen this said before, but the middle palaces are kinda boring. The story pacing falls off after Madarame's palace. Again, I love Futuba, but Kaneshiro's, Futuba's, and Okumura's palaces feel like there's much less at stake, especially Kaneshiro's. Not that I disliked the game at those points, but compared to the rest of the game, it's not as exciting.

The Nijima palace was my favorite. Oh my god, it was so interesting and well developed. The music was also FIRE. I liked going around and collecting chips to continue on to the next level, and I liked seeing a shadow that wasn't directly hostile towards the group. It was such an interesting concept. I also just love Sae as a character, I like that she's not directly evil and she has good intentions, she just got kinda lost at some point. I think that's a nice change of pace from the other palaces.

Ren and Akechi have the most romantic tension in the entire series. Like kiss already, jesus fucking christ.

I like all the phantom thieves except Haru. She feels so out of place. This isn't like an attack on her character or anything, but the issues with her Okumura Foods stock or whatever it was felt so... weird. Like I get she's in a tough situation, but she's also like a millionaire, so no matter what she decides, she would be set for life probably. I don't know, it just feels wrong to me

I cried when Akechi died :( I know he's technically a bad guy but come on. He deserved better. I want to bring him back from the dead and give him a hug. Have him and the other phantom thieves live a happy life being besties or whatever.

The ending felt weird. It was so much monologuing. I don't even know exactly what I didn't like about the ending, I just didn't like it. I also didn't play royal, I just played the original, so that might have changed it. I know that apparently I was supposed to talk to the wardens throughout the game and I just... didn't. Oops.

This is such a small thing but I hated the music for Shido's palace. It made me go insane and not in a good way.

I cried when I thought Ryuji died. And then I got mad when the cast beat him up for some reason???? Literally why did they do that????

I realized I didn't talk about Makoto at all but I love her. She's amazing. She can do no wrong idc

Ok final thoughts: I actually really liked the game. It's far from a perfect game but I generally enjoyed it. I'm glad I sat down and played it (for 100 fucking hours). Anyway, this is all just my opinions, I'm not bothered or anything if you don't agree with something I said. If you want to leave a comment either agreeing or disagreeing, I'd appreciate it as long as you're not a dick about it

[give-me-hohen]

ryomina canon -- a thread

hi this is my transferring the ryomina post I originally made on my twitter to tumblr, as my twitter has been archived. this was originally made like a couple weeks after reload came out haha. ignore the bad formating :^)

also apparently tumblr hates when you post multiple videos, so theyll just be links mb haha.

DISCLAIMER!!

since theres been a lot of persona ship discourse going around.. no im not trying to say ryomina is the only canon ship, nor that any other ship is bad. i just find the little dialogue changes that atlus purposely included to be interesting. you dont have to ship.

thats fine. just ignore this thread and go on LOL. now thats outs of the way, some of this will be.. a stretch, and definitely ranty. my apologizes !! and also, all p3p and p3fes screenshots and recordings r taken from online playthroughs.

and b4 someone says 'oh you havent played p3fes and p3p?!?!' i played p3fes on my ps3, as for portable. i havent, so sorry if i get info relating to that wrong ;; 

*Moonlight Bridge Scene*

firstly, i don't want to start off with the obvious love confession ryoji has on 12/1, but instead i want to focus on some dialogue changes that stood out to me. during the moonlight bridge scene, instead of fuuka being the to run up to ryoji, it's makoto. this stood out to me with the context of what happened on 12/1. there was no need for atlus to change something so minor, except if they wanted show the concern makoto has for ryoji. also! only the manga has makoto catching ryoji, in both routes for p3p, he just passes out.

they ended up changing the scene to resemble the one in the manga. purposefully choice atlus!

*12/3 Dialogue*

then followed by giving makoto dialogue choices exclusive to femcs route, where you can romance him. again it's such a minor change that struck me as interesting, did they want to showcase the bond between makoto and ryoji further?

imo its to push this idea that it personally effects makoto, that having to kill ryoji is a difficult choice for makoto, just like it is with kotone. he doesn't want to kill ryoji, he hates both choices, because of ryoji, because of what it involves to erase their memories 

*12/31 Dialogue*

since i'm talking about makoto killing ryoji-- let's go onto the changes during 12/31 !! the changes made here are some of the (imo) most major ones, as they ended up giving ryoji dialogue that ONLY happens when you romance him in kotones route

this dialogue ONLY happens if you romance ryoji in femc route, if you don't, the dialogue is exactly the same as in fes. i think its obvious on what the implications of ryoji saying this are. i don't think i need to spell it out to you dear reader on WHY atlus purposely added romance-exclusive route dialogue..

oh! and speaking of that, the additional dialogue after you choose not to kill him! again, theres no extra dialogue in his fes and no romance route, make of this as you will!

also, unlike pretty much all the slinks and additonal episodes added into the game, makoto actually puts ryojis music box on his bed board thing. a way to remember ryoji and the bond they had, even if they're separated.

in general, i think these slight dialogue changes help showcase that ryoji does, infact, have feelings for makoto, even if you choose to ignore the piano scene. from adding dialogue that's specifically from a romance route, to the literal music box. ryomina canon!!

anyways i think a lot of what i said above isn’t too far of a stretch, but im like totally aware everything past here might be me coping, but hey! its fun.

but let's continue looking at 12/31, except this time.. the bad ending! while the bad ending is mostly the same, ive noticed some changes when it comes to pacing and the animation. atlus clearly shows that makoto is visibly upset, they have him turn to show his face not just once (him turning his face towards the camera while on the bed) , but twice, when he gets up and gets ready to shoot ryoji. they make the change of his expression VISIBLE. his faces changes to visibly being distraught. then theres makoto summoning his persona itself is delayed in reload, there's cleary hesitant when it comes to him summoning it in reload. it takes a couple of seconds for the fade to black, vs fes where it fades to black as soon as he pulls out his evoker.

also seriously this additional dialogue when nyxs true arcana is revealed? i'd say it was somewhat taken from the movie, but come on. Come on, do i need to explain

anyways! i just. theres nothing i can say much other then they deliberately allowed for this dialogue to happen. they didn't need to, atlus didn't need to say that ryojis song (and by extension, ryoji himself) left an impression on makoto.

alright i think this is the end.. friendly reminder that this is all for fun, if you don't ship them, thats fine. i just think with atlus stealing dialogue from kotones romance route for ryoji, there's heavy, and id say canonically evidence of ryomina. 

and some afterthoughts as almost a year has past since ive written this thread. i still find the purposefully inclusion of kotone's romance dialogue pretty damning for ryoji lmfao. the more i've thought about it, the more i do genuinely believe that ryomina at the very least is semi-canon, with ryoji canonically having feelings for makoto.

sadly this is persona, the i know the persona fandom well to call the few examples we have of actual queer relationships 'queerbait', or just ignore it. it's a shame because i do think ryoji's love for makoto in reload is so well written, and such a tragedy. but hey, its atlus lmfao

..also ryoji saying 'next time i flirt with girls ill make sure they dont have bfs ^-^' then straight up asking makoto if he has someone like god ik what you are.

[gerbelx2000-blog]

i honestly really dislike the palace rulers being treated so drastically different from akechi in the fandom. even though there's still people who refuse to say anything positive about akechi because he's a terrible guy, the majority of the fandom still treats him like a character and read into his backstory, behaviour, and motivations.

but when it comes to the palace rulers, there's not a single ounce of that attitude for them. it's so strange because not even the story itself has such a crazy bias; the same amount of sympathy towards akechi is given towards the palace rulers too. madarame and okumura are my most obvious examples, with yusuke often expressing his conflicting feelings on the matter, and haru learning about her father's motivations through takakura during her confidant.

in that sense, joker and akechi's relationship parallels that of haru/yusuke and the respective father figure; the two mutually love and care for each other, but unfortunately, one cares more for themselves and it causes their bond to break.

the cut backstories for the palace rulers add a lot to their character, and maybe that's why i like them so much. it makes them feel as rounded out as akechi was (in vanilla, i know he's much more humanized in royal's third semester. that might add to the bias, actually) and it makes me feel kind of bad for those sick, twisted bastards.

but obviously, that content was cut, and it's not very widespread knowledge, unlike akechi's backstory which he explains in-game, right in your face, unavoidably.

there's also this thing i've noticed that i call "fandom activism" where any deep analysis into a good-written character that is a genuinely bad person is seen as condoning their actions because WE ALWAYS HAVE TO SHUN THE EVIL GUY!!! WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT THEM IN CASUAL CONVERSATION!!! WE NEED TO HOLD A FICTIONAL CHARACTER ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE NOT REAL AND...... the way we treat them makes no difference in the world? huh.

personally, i was informed that the way i talk about kamoshida makes people uncomfortable. it's not like i said anything creepy about him, all i do is read into him the same way one would with akechi. he's a genuinely good villain, the same way akechi is! and his mindset is really interesting to look into!!!!! i think they're all missing out!!!!!!!!

my last line of defense is that the palace rulers are unfortunately made way less conventionally attractive than akechi is. that's something i don't like about them, and the fact that everyone lets that sway their opinions of them even less. i know atlus pulls the "make the unsympathetic character ugly" shtick a lot and it's suuuuuuuuuuck.

yeah. i'm kind of peeved about this and i thought you were the best person to send this to. kaneshiro isn't a cute twink but i'm still going to love him with the little attention he gets........... :')

FRICKEN NAILED IT THERE! NICE JOB!👍👍👍😭😭😭 AND I CAN RELATE TO YOUR PAIN AND STRUGGLES!

[kyl3gutz]

I guess it's now or never to establish how I AM ALSO INTO PERSONA LIKE A LOT

so I had a revelation today, I was scrolling through my pinterest feed when

I got two images about a fashion style that I like

yeah I LOVE GYARU AND GYARU SUBSTYLES!! and you see I saw a part on the pros image "You have this sort of Rebel to society thing going on" ..is that not a big part of the themes in persona 5? Like the first and foremost theme is about rebellion, so that got me thinking a bit more.

WHY DIDN'T THEY DO A GYARU CHARACTER???

It would've been fun to see a gyaru character as either a confidant or a phantom thief! They would fit in well but I see pros and cons to it

On the one hand:

Theres a lot of room for a fun social link with a character like this! They would be a great character with a lot of room for look into many topics!!

They would have a cute design!! Very good!

If they're a phantom thief, who would be introduced with a new palace, that palace might give the criminally underutilized Ann something to do post-Kamoshida!

If they're a social link, they could be a fun character to look into!

On the other hand:

..it's Atlus, I don't think they'd be used to the fullest

Gyaru is a.. revealing style sometimes, and that could be a problem

On the topic of Ann, a Gyaru character may come off too similar to Ann in parts which may be a problem

While Gyaruo is there if they NEED to be male and be more masc, Gyaruo is difficult to work with without dipping a lot into V-Kei

but COME ON!

I REALLY wish they did a Gyaru character in Persona 5, it would've been so cool

[aliliceswonderland]

The Answer differences - Keys discussion (Part 2)

You can find Part 1 here. I left it in the middle of Yukari and Akihiko's argument so that's where we start here.

So... There's a new dialogue in the Reload version that expands on Akihiko's point of view. I think it's kind of unneccesary, it just expands on what's already been said, and I don't think anyone ever had trouble understanding Aki's position or relating to him here, unlike with Yukari... It doesn't really matter, though. It doesn't make things worse either. The toning down continues. Omission of "You're just making excuses" makes Akihiko less confrontational. Interestingly, in Reload DLC Yukari rejects Akihiko's point of view (she already had a line on that track earlier too, see Part 1), while her silence in FES implies he hit the blank. Since the part about her feelings on MC's sacrifice was previously omitted, I wonder if they wanted to imply that she doesn't understand his sacrifice rather than that she understands it but still wants to go ahead with going to the past to see him, which is what happens in FES.

This is the point where things start to difer A LOT, so I have to stop doing line-by-line comparisons and think about a way to explain everything in a more or less orderly manner.

First at all, the sequence where Metis is explained that the main character died is gone. I don't know if maybe the Reload version told her in a different cutscene or if she just was left to deduce it for herself, but it's definitely not here.

Anyway, since Metis' pausing the discussion to ask in FES version, Junpei can start his reasoning pretty calmly. That's no longer the case in Reload's Episode Aigis, where Yukari is still angry from her discussion with Akihiko, and Junpei intervenes to try to scale the situation down. And fails, since she gets angrier.

Yukari repeats her argument here. She definitely sounds more logical and practical, even if she's still yelling. It's about taking a once in a lifetime chance, not as much about her own feelings. I do find a little disappointing that there's not much nuance in her take, though. She's basically repeating herself.

Back to side-by-side comparisons! This time, though, it's totally different text. But I think these pieces of dialogue are pointing to similar thought processes in Junpei's mind, so I think they are comparable. The line about Chidori is very, very interestingly missing in the Reload DLC. Kind of sad, given it's like... the only one point at which a party member other than Mitsuru expresses sympathy for Yukari's position. But when Atlus gives a decision to the player, they tend to let the result ambiguous, and this was the one exception... until now. Chidori's no longer canonically dead, but canonically in Schrödinger's box. It's equivalent in Reload is about the MC, of course. The reason I consider it doesn't express sympathy like the FES one, is because he says it without doubts. While FES!Junpei has doubts about Chidori, Reload!Junpei has fully accepted MC's dead, and therefore cannot see things the way she does. Although I kind of get this change (Junpei wouldn't care as much about his best friend as he did for the love of her life... Maybe. Go wild in the tags.), I think this is a bad choice when you'd want to make people understand Yukari. Because that sympathy is the way you'd do that without having to cut on her emotions and nuance. They're all in a similar situation, after all.

The second pair of lines is also interesting to me in that reflection upon Akihiko's words is totally bashed in favor of a "please, don't yell" thing that is not even a point. Why. I think they're trying to present Akihiko's point in a way that feels less objective? But was it needed when Junpei could see both sides here? Anyway, Junpei and Yukari's argument follows a similar structure as in FES for a while:

So, this is basically Junpei's main argument, which is that they'll have to battle Nyx again. Which Yukari answers by basically calling him a coward. The elimination of the comparison between Junpei's possible death and the MC's is significant. It shows Yukari hasn't fully accepted MC's death. But... no more nuanced feelings for Yukari, I guess. I don't completely understand why they switched Junpei's dialogue from a very compelling argument to basically nothing. They dumbed him down a lot. I think it's because they didn't know how to make Yukari respond to it rationally, but honestly it's very easy: "We can do it again, we've done it before!" Anyway, I'm not complaining about the toning down of Yukari in this particular scene, she really takes things too far here. In fact, she goes on in FES to insult Ken and Akihiko:

Instead, in Reload Ken interrupts the scene to ask Aigis what she thinks. FES doesn't do that until later, since Yukari suggests taking the keys by force now and Metis intervenes:

This is only a part of all of Metis' dialogue that was skipped, but the most significant part (I've reached the image limit... again... orz). Honestly, the point of "she might die since mc died and we don't know why" always sounded like BS to me, specially since Ken basically hit the bullseye with his interpretation of the events. Now I get why the previous Metis scene where she's explained the protagonist died is skipped. It's at that point when she arrives to this conclusion. I don't know, I think her becoming aware of a loved one's mortality is something that would add to the narrative, but I think this doesn't exactly accomplish that. You don't need to link the cause to the Journey's protagonist death. Aigis can die in battle! Also I think Metis still deserves to know. She could've had a little arc of herself about understanding what death entails and that would be part of what makes her realize it. Anyway, since I reached image limit again, I need to make a Part 3 now. Well, not now. Tomorrow.........

[kingofdinosaurs]

Akihiko 1,2,3,4,5,12,18,23

1. why do you like this character?

lots of reasons probably? it's like hard for me to pinpoint anything i just like him a lot. i really like the specific ways he like reacts to adversity and shit. like persona 3 in general is like forming a squad of the most traumatized kids they can find (and also fuuka) but even within that i just think his whole bit is really interesting

2. favourite canon thing about this character?

I feel kind of bad for saying i really like his biggest flaw, but i really do like how he keeps falling back into that old habit and flawed coping mechanism of trying to reach some ill-defined concept of strength, and it makes a lot of sense to me that he's kind of stuck in this rut so much throughout his appearances, because he keeps just. experiencing new things that push him to retreat back into that. a lot of people don't like arena as like a regression i think, but it makes a lot of sense to me that it's not as easy for him to just. shake off all his heavily entrenched and maladaptive ideas one day just because. especially in the aftermath of persona 3. it's an ongoing struggle, but hey! he IS winning it, slowly but surely. hey check it out

3. least favourite canon thing about this character?

we need to fire that one atlus employee who keeps making characters be cops. like even discounting the baseline "cops are bad and we should stop glorifying them", it like. doesn't even make sense for akihiko to do that under the circumstances, which are "i want to follow in kurosawa's footsteps and help people like they helped me" BECAUSE LIKE ALL OF THE HELP KUROSAWA GIVES HIM IS LIKE. OUTSIDE OF AND AT TIMES ENTIRELY ANTITHETICAL TO HIM BEING A COP. i swear they literally mention he was on the verge of getting fired over the "selling weapons to children" stuff, like it just doesn't track. why is THIS the lesson akihiko takes away from that.

4. if you could put this character in any other media, be it a book, movie, anything, what would you put them in?

i think he would enjoy being in dragon ball ^_^

5. what's the first song that comes to mind when you think about them?

probably just his arena theme tbh, i have a lot of trouble coming up with songs for him. i would actually appreciate suggestions if anyone's got them!

12. what's a headcanon you have for this character?

i love forgetting everything I've ever thought about a character when i get asked about them -_- uh i guess the easy ones are he is trans and autistic... I wanna say something that feels less entrenched though...

OH yeah uh. this is more of a what-if thing but i do kind of think that if mitsuru hadn't approached him when she did, by the time p3 rolled around he would have probably built up a similar reputation to like kanji or ryuji. in some small ways he was really lucky to be given a completely consequence-free outlet for his desire to prove his strength, and i think if he hadn't had that, if mitsuru hadn't approached him, he would have tried to find that outlet in the real world no matter the damage it did to his reputation and relationships with others. i feel like people don't really think about this, but both in the answer flashback and in arena, he doesn't have access to that outlet of the dark hour and it does show in how he interacts with other people and what he prioritises. this is mostly a hypothetical, but i think it would affect how he thinks about kanji (and also ryuji in persona 5 arena coming NEVER)

18. How about a relationship they have in canon with another character that you admire?

ooh it's really hard to choose... i really love his relationship with mitsuru, i find his dynamic with ken really interesting under the like. especially the lead in from p3 through to arena, like how do you figure out that one from ken's end. must have been weird as hell. but i think i have to give it to him and aigis especially with the stuff they telegraphed at the end of arena of like. her doing some terminator shit with him to get his degree finished... in general the shadow ops trio are like a really fun successor to the senpai trio to me because instead of trying to like replace shinji they brought in aigis to make the situation even odder

23. favourite picture of this character?

oh god. it just has to be the misery expression like what else can i say. load bearing

[arcplaysgames]

As everyone settles in, the discussion turns sad because it turns out, uh, besides Yusuke (hilariously) everyone is leaving?

Reverie is going home in a month as his probation is over. Morgana decides he's going with him, because they are soulmates. Ryuji is changing schools to one closer to a rehab center in hopes of working on his knee. Ann is going to study abroad. Makoto and Haru were looking at apartments for college. Sumire will be out training and touring. And Futaba got into high school.

So everyone is abandoning Yusuke which I think means he's going to starve to death or walk directly into the lake because he saw a beautiful bird. Farewell, my beloved Yusuke.

Considering this game has some kind of direct sequel, I wonder if all this "going our separate ways" shit will stick lmao.

Obligatory Valentines Day. The dateless wonders hang out at Leblanc.

Understatement of the year, Ryuji, do you SEE that double breasted coat? He's gorgeous.

MORGANA YOU TOOK THE WORDS OUT OF MY FUCKING MOUTH

my god at least Ryuji is considering the possibility of maybe growing as a person just a bit. Only took up a hundred and nineteen fucking hours.

GIRI-CHOCO YO!!!! Reverie gets chocolates from Ryuji, Sae, Ann, Tae, Haru, Kawakami, Hifumi, and Futaba. Amusingly, Ryuji's restores 10SP. Everyone else's restore 100SP. Which just feels right.

Why did Yusuke not give me chocolate. 8C Sad.

Valentine's Day is whatever, but I love White Day.

So Reverie and Morgana decide to get Sojiro fucking flowers.

Sojiro is lowkey but clearly touched by the gesture, and I PROMISE YOU that I don't even need to see all the other White Day options in the game, I know this one is the one I like best. He took Reverie in, protected him, fed him and taught him to cook, and took him in explicitly as family.

Sojiro deserves this. I love you Sojiro. Sorry for making fun of you like 300 posts ago.

THAT SAID Sojiro is like "NEXT YEAR though you need to have someone else to give them to."

Well, Sojiro, unfortunately Reverie's boyfriend died twice, so it'll probably take him a while to get over that. What's he supposed to do, just hook up with any mean boy he meets on the street? They don't make 'em like Goro fucking Akechi.

Then time jumps to the day before Reverie leaves and of course the game lets you go say goodbye to everyone.

Only a few really stick out to me. Sojiro's is one. Reverie gives him the probation diary that has serves as the save/load log for the entire game. There is this quiet moment as Sojiro looks at it and promises to keep it safe. All of Reverie's secrets in the hands of his dad (boogie woogie woogie).

Lavenza gives Reverie the key to his cell, noting that due to all the Horsefuckery that was going on with Yarblegarble that he was the first visitor to the Velvet Room who was not given his key. He was not treated as a guest like he should have been. But he freed himself, and the key is his talisman, proof he can escape any bondage.

I love Lavenza. Not at much as Margaret but probably more than Liz. Maybe because Lavenza didn't routinely let people into Mementos to wander around until they die. Goddammit Liz.

I went. I hoped. But of course not.

But I did manage to talk to the Jazz Club owner, who remembered Reverie and Akechi going to the club. Which leads Reverie to remember something himself.

My fight with him isn't over yet.

what the fuck does that mean. Reverie is going to kick down the door to hell going "WHERE IS AKECHI? WHERE IS HE?"

I love you, you're great, be safe. /hugs tora tightly

YUSUKE FUCKING GIVES REVERIE HIS PRIZE-WINNING PAINTING, "DREAMS AND HOPE"

yusuke, god. in another life. in another life that wasn't developed by fucking Atlus and SEGA. you and me, okay? i love you, please go see Sojiro if you get hungry, he'll take care of you.

I love you, too, Futaba. To this day, I am stunned at how good of a character you are despite every trope that should be set up against you. Thank you for being the best annoying little sister.

Sojiro wipes away tears as Reverie leaves, once and for all.

So Makoto just... owns a bus???? And everyone shows up to drive Reverie to the train station. Why does Makoto have a bus? Gosh, maybe that would have been in her SLink if I did, like, a single rank of it, lmao. Anyway.

For Unexplained Reasons that we are just gonna have to handwave, the fuzz are still tracking the Thieves I guess? So everyone decides to split up.

I just smiled so fucking wide. I was afraid this would end without anything on Maruki, and my hope was that he would get out of psience and psychiatry and start over.

And it seems he has. Honestly, taxi cabbing is a fantastic pick for him. He's good at gentle conversations and leading people to talk but not pushing them. Anything with that kind of thing, from hairdresser to driver, is a good fit for him.

I have a couple of favorites in this game but Maruki is on another level due to how phenomenal his writing and voice acting is. Sir, it has been a pleasure.

Everyone meets back up for a fast goodbye at the train station before the police are still???? chasing them???? wait maybe makoto DOESN'T have her license and instead she stole this van and that's the problem. Yep, headcanon accepted.

In the end, Persona 5 Royal is the story of a boy and his cat versus the world. What more could you want out of an ending?

HOLY SHIT AKECHI IS ALIVE

NOW THAT IS A FUCKING STINGER, BABY

THAT'S SHIN MEGAMI TENSEI: PERSONA 5: THE ROYAL. THE STORY OF REVERIE VANTAS THE FIFTH IS A CLOSE, CHEERS! TIP YOUR WAITERS!

[akechi-stole-my-heart]

If I may ask: how would you have written/rewritten Sumire's confident story? 😊 Unless it's too close to what you did in code violet, sorry 😂 Personnally, I thought the first half wasn't THAT boring, she was endearing but I felt like she was either in denial or hiding her grief about her sister's death - and then I got the truth 😂 I've become a shusumi fan quickly but I still think there's *something* lacking for it to click. And the last scene we see Sumire was underwhelming imho 🥲

yeah! there are a lot of similarities to what i do in code violet, but it's not identical, since I have a lot more freedom in my fic than there is in the game.

i wouldn't change much if anything about the first half. i agree it isn't that boring, what really makes it seem that way are (1) high expectations for the New Special Girl to be exceptional since she wasn't in the original game and (2) comparing her to the other team members who you're already invested in, her conflict just isn't as interesting (at least to me). basically, you start out every other thief confidant already knowing the core of their conflict because of their palace, so you're already invested in their arcs, while with sumire that is reversed, where you don't learn what's actually going on with her later. so, the "boringness" of the confidant is really exaggerated by that. if you didn't like the way they inserted her into the opening sequence (i never had an issue with it, but royal was my first experience, though i did know the stuff with her was added in the rerelease) so she made a bad impression on you, then it's understandable why people wouldn't like her (at first, anyway)

but let's get to the point. my issues with her confidant. they can basically be summed up in 2 points, and the two of them intersect quite a bit (1) the way she idolizes both kasumi and joker and rely on them for her self worth is not properly unpacked and (2) her role as the waifu REALLY impedes her arc.

basically, sumire idolizes joker. her outfit mirrors his exactly, and her arc in third sem is all about...learning that since joker loves her, she wants to both rise to his expectations and can learn to value herself. and that's not bad, but certain lines about how she wants joker to see her really rub me the wrong way. specifically in her rank when they go to the mall and she picks an outfit for herself. i like the part about her wanting to be seen as herself, and the part about joker's reaction ultimately being irrelevant to whether she likes the outfit, and i would emphasize those points more strongly. but the parts about her wanting joker to see her feel a little like she's trying to be a person he will like? rather than being the person that she is. some of the dialogue is pretty meh, and it feels like she's getting her self worth from joker.

the bones of the confidant are good. great, even. but there's just subtleties in the execution that make it not quite land for me. choosing the romance route ends up feeling unhealthy for both of them, where sumire is putting too much of her worth in someone else and joker is entering an unequal relationship where sumire doesn't give him as much as he gives her because he just isn't in a place to. and i think that's a shame.

for me to get behind shusumi, sumire needs to be on equal ground with akira, and she just isn't. and the game is even aware of this--sumire says on white day that she isn't, but that she wants to be someday. and like, it could be her being self deprecating, but either way it's not what either of them deserve. i wish we could get a moment where she's there for akira like he's there for her, but atlus is allergic to joker's friends being there for him so we never get that.

so honestly, i really wouldn't change much. i'd leave the first half how it is, tweak some dialogue in the second half so it seems less like sumire is getting her self worth from joker, and add a moment where sumire explicitly says she's there for joker and wants to be there for him as much as he's been there for her, so they're on emotionally equal ground with each other.

finally, i do wish we got to see more of her journey, since she really is just at the very beginning of her arc of recovery at the end of the game. but i think it's okay that we don't. there is only so much time allotted to watch her grow, and we see her grow a lot in that time. there's questions she could ask herself that she doesn't have the time to get to, like if she really wants to be a gymnast for herself, or if she's just doing it for her sister. that sort of thing. but again, i think it's okay we don't get to that. i might add a line or two where she says she wants to be a gymnast for herself because she enjoys it, though.

and i guess that's it? i'm sorry for how disorganized this answer is. i haven't really thought in depth about what i'd change if restricted by the confines of the game, and so it's kind of difficult to do a rewrite when that's different than just having problems with what exists. a lot of what i would change can be found in code violet, like how i emphasize that it's "joker makes me want to be seen for who i am, and see him in return" rather than the one-way dynamic of "joker makes me want to be seen and so i will try to be a person he likes" which some of her lines really come across as sometimes. honestly, i think the entire confidant could have been improved by leaning more into the rivalry dynamic. sumire and akechi already have plenty of similarities/parallels, and joker kind of inherits kasumi's role as sumire's rival. so i think it'd have been really powerful if they leaned into that and made it clear that this time, sumire and her rival are equals.

but yeah! sorry this is so rambly. i'm going to end the post now

[blazescompendium]

Shin Megami Tensei is 31 years old today.

image provided by Vesk Scans. Please follow her archiving work!

Yeah, Shin Megami Tensei for the Super Famicom is now 31 years old. It is surprising for me how a game that came out full 6 years before i even give my first breath on this Earth, would be so important for me and my life. But here we are.

Even after playing the entirety of the mainline franchise, and a lot of spin offs, this game still holds its position very well in my heart because it is such a unique game. First, i always loved mythology and religion, so much so that i pursued it as a career. It started when i was little, with the influence of my father who was a scholar (albeit amateur) of those fields. Religion always played a major role in my life, both for the good and the bad, and although i don't actually align with any religion at the moment, i was studying the bible in a religious school since a very early age.

So, when i found out about Shin Megami Tensei, it clicked really, really well with me. I know that it is just a game, and even if it tries a lot to be faithful, as a researcher and scholar of Mythology and Religion we got to say it not always gets it right. But it tries! And when it tries, it can achieve very good results, and that's why i love it so much.

And that was when i was a teen/young adult. Now i grew up a lot, and even started my career in those fields, and still regard this game very high.

The characters are great for me, because i love how this game can be incredibly inclusive. Your main character is not a destined hero, or magical being. It is just an average guy, going to the groceries when the world start to end. He lives with his mom, have its problematic friends, and lives an average life. He always acts like any other person would act, and even his looks are just average.

Now, the thing is that this game did not aged well, but its absolutely playable and very fun to play. The old SMT titles have this ''survival horror'' energy, where you have to take care of resources while advancing in the game. ''Should you use your complete party in this dungeon, since its dangerous, but risk to deplete your MAG stock?'' Stuff like that got me.

And this brings me to how much i hate Atlus as a capitalist company. They made this effort to show us they care about the anniversary of the franchise that kick-started their business, but did not do anything about it. Just shoved merch to the US audience, that is not available anywhere else. Us, from outside, just did not got anything from this ''anniversary''. And i thought the Persona 25th was bad enough lol. But i guess merch hoarders are happy?

And that was a big fucking lie

I honestly don't want anything out of the ordinary. If they could at least port the SNES titles to the Switch Online at the west, because its already available in Japan, i beleive we would be very grateful already. Playing and presenting this games for a new generation is a pain. And i believe Shin Megami Tensei deserves it as a series, not only for its uniqueness but also for everything this IP did to Atlus.

But hey, i guess we are getting something, right? We have a whole new Persona 5 spin off coming next week! I am so hyped to see the same characters, exactly as they were 7 years ago, in another story about teen rebellion or whatever.

Im sorry, SMT. We failed with you. But your legacy will never be gone. I beleive SMT message keeps relevant to this day, and even more so as the time passes by. The world is a very different place then it was in 199X, but still a very divided and extremist place. SMT was the only game of its time to tackle this issues.

Happy anniversary to Shin Megami Tense, as a great game as one of my favorite games of all time. I wish more people could play it at least once!

And yeah, to celebrate i think i will be beating SMT 2 tonight, after lectures!

[daxieoclock]

Tactica Impressions Part 6, No Plot Spoilers

Toshiro continues to bring the entire plot down. I need him to stop being here. Please. Please, I'm dying and the only cure is No More Adult Man Party Member In Persona Game.

Erina is a fantastic character and her development is fantastic but it DRAGS that she's so fixated on being nice to Toshiro and sucking up to him and giving him unearned authority over her rebellion and the Phantom Thieves.

They've even co-oped Futaba into buddying up to Toshiro and it sucks so bad. Futaba. Futaba, cyber criminal and prodigal hacker, compares her being autistic and talented to Toshiro's...having experience deescalating cabinet battles. It's SUCH mischaracterization.

Complaining aside. All The Girls (And Ryuji) Love Erina's Flag and I feel like that's very gay of them. Everyone likes the cool girl.

RYUHARU SIDE QUEST with bonus Futaba and Haru sister moments, and Ryuji calls Haru "senpai." It's fucking amazing. Haru fans keep winning.

Even though Yusuke and Makoto are my least fav Thieves on average, I do love how they're animated this game. They both have fantastic poses, and there's even some good bits of characterization, though Makoto gets really robbed by most of the big planning stuff being handed over to Toshiro instead so he can show off. Stolen valor tbh.

There's one random moment where it looks like Haru and Makoto are holding hands. Yay! :)

The marriage fantasy scenes kinda sucked on average? The Makoto and Yusuke scenes were deeply unfunny jokes, the Ann scene felt like it was copy-pasted from Lovers 10, and the Ryuji scene was surprisingly earnest even through the attempt to play it off as a joke. Like...it felt like yet another case where Atlus accidentally wrote them into genuine bi subtext, as opposed to the "my friend is a weirdo" of the Yusuke scene.

The Haru scene almost made me tear up. Yes I'm a Harufan, yes I'm biased towards Shuharu. Don't care, it was so fucking genuine and played into her themes of overcoming romantic/sexual abuse and it was just AGHHGG I LOVE THESE STUPID KIDS.

How does Joker STILL have the grappling hook from Royal, what the fuck. We're playing X-Com over here, you didn't think that would have been useful EARLIER???

Anyway Erina continues to be an absolute badass, it's unreal how cool she is.

...I wrote most of these points as I experienced them, and now I may need to take a step back. Because the projection room scene in the castle has left me genuinely reeling. I'm not sure what to say beyond...that I am taking another look at Toshiro as a character. Because I might be starting to appreciate him. Metatextually, his role as a pseudo-party member is a fucking nightmare, and his writing is so inconsistent and uncharismatic that the most entertaining parts of his presence so far has been other characters dunking on him. His personality sucks and I don't like WHY Atlus put him in this game. But as a character, as a foil to the Thieves and an individual narrative...I am starting to be compelled. There is absolutely an opportunity for Atlus to absolutely dumpster this good faith they've got from me, but...I said "if they want to make Toshiro compelling, they need to do these things" and like fucking clockwork, they did. So now I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I don't have to LIKE Toshiro, but I will give his arc the benefit of the doubt. (Also if people want to read my specific thoughts on the scene, let me know, I'll definitely write them up if there's interest.)

Anyway pls look at this meme from @lilyhoshikawa

Haru / Ann Close Read Lines: 21 (and boy fucking howdy what a handful of good ones we got this time)

[yusuke-of-valla]

From the perspective of Persona 5 Royal as a standalone story I'm not necessarily against the ambiguity of what exactly happened with Akechi. I actually like it, there's lots of room for interpretation! The Third Semester had a sort of dream logic to it which fit well with how the cognitive world was bleeding into reality. I like the idea of Akechi being a sort of Schrödinger's cat. Is that actually Akechi or just Joker's mind playing tricks on him? If he survived, how? Was that Akechi or was it not? Will Joker and Akechi ever meet again or will they simply remain individuals who changed each other forever only for their paths never to cross again, with Joker forever unsure of Akechi's survival or even what happened to the boy he cared about enough to change reality? The open-endedness of Akechi's story as it relates to Joker isn't bad to me.

However it does cause a lot of problems for any Persona 5 game that happens afterward the 3rd semester which by its nature needs to have a canon answer to all of this if they want to bring back popular character Akechi (which is probably why Strikers apparently takes place in the timeline of the OG Persona 5 and not Royale). And the similarly "are they actually brought back to life or merely mental constructs?" question that the other back-from-the-dead loved ones in the 3rd semester raise are far easier to brush aside since their status as dead is never in question with incentive to bring them back for a later instalment of the series. I personally don't have much faith in Atlus explaining it in a compelling way that makes sense though.

Honestly, if you ask me everyone acts like Akechi is dead because Joker believes it. His wish is predicated on the belief that Akechi IS dead which is the information Maruki is acting on and the world then shapes itself to accommodate and with his memories so fuzzy, why should Akechi believe any different? Not to mention how Akechi's cognition of himself and the world might also have an impact on the evidence, Maruki's own perception, and his conclusions. But the choice still matters because Joker and Akechi were willing to make that choice even if it resulted in Akechi being dead, not necessarily that it ends with Akechi dead.

Yeah, basically. As a stand-alone story it's fine, and my issue with Akechi's death being a cop out is more along the lines of "by the fucking FOURTH fake out death (fifth if you count Joker's), it starts getting really annoying" than it being bad conceptually

But the problem is it's part of a series that has Spin-off games that continue the story, and like they should have known people would expect a follow up come Royal.

So really they shot themselves in the foot with that final cutscene because while I do find it annoying that people will go "where's Akechi?!" At every new thing, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to, you know, expect the very deliberate dangling plot thread to get addressed? From a very deliberate standpoint, why would you show him the way you did if it isn't supposed to be a sequel hook (because yeah the blocking of that shot is very deliberate "hey look at this")

It's not like this was originally gonna be stand alone story and then it got unexpectedly popular so you made a sequel, and now have to answer a question so plot can happen

Idk maybe it annoys me so much because to me at least it's SO blatantly stringing fans along I'm kind of offended on principle. Like you made your bed fucking lie in it, don't dance around it like cowards