#which wasn't anything executionally difficult

[doedipus]

I went to the local again with lite this evening. they didn't have a headline event going so it was just a bunch of people doing long sets

I ended up doing one with a ky player who I think probably would've rinsed me on netplay but I ended up going almost even against. I got to experiment with some tech I'd been meaning to try out and it worked pretty well so I'm very pleased

[tallerthantale]

What Does Aziraphale Actually Believe, Part 7: Armageddidn’t Begins

This is a series of my takes on what Aziraphale believes through the timeline of the show. It is all my personal interpretation, and I am happy to hear others. You don’t need to read them all in order, but know that I am coming from a perspective on Aziraphale’s machinations that can be difficult for people without a psychology background to follow without the first two as a primer. The quick version is that Aziraphale has a set of beliefs that exist in some form or another within his mind. However, at any given moment, only some of them exist ‘with awareness’ or as I am putting it here, conscious!Aziraphale only has access to the beliefs that the rest of his mind, veil!Aziraphale, allows him to know about. The context of the moment will determine what lives on the surface and what stays buried behind the veil, whatever arrangement best prevents a threat to Aziraphale’s sense of self and makes whatever he is inclined to do feel right.

This post covers modern Season 1 up to the end of the Bandstand, with the bulk of it on that fight. Its too long. I can't stop myself. I apologise profusely. About 3.3k words.

The Modern Era

We come into the modern era with an Aziraphale who knows he is in love with a demon, knows heaven is run by morally bankrupt stooges, is willing to accept he is represented by shades of light grey, but will still say with a straight face that Armageddon will be heaven’s glorious triumph over evil and it will all be rather lovely.

Crowley doesn’t believe Azriraphale really believes that, and after getting drunk Aziraphale admits he doesn’t like it either. He was trying to convince himself, and it worked for a short time, like some of his temporary beliefs at Uz. Just like he can’t maintain the idea that he is suited to a life in hell, he can’t maintain the idea that Armageddon is good. He still has conflicting feelings about working with Crowley. “Get thee behind me foul fiend” is a joke. “We’re hereditary enemies” isn’t.

Aziraphale agrees to go along with raising the antichrist towards good as long as he can frame it as thwarting evil, and present it to his supervisors as part of his official duties. Once that rationalisation is in place he is practically beaming about the idea of stopping Armageddon by getting to be a positive influence godfather. I think at this point he has convinced himself that the ineffable plan is to prevent the great plan. He is so invested that he is surprised and frustrated that the other angels consider his work doomed to failure.

Doomsweek

The kid's grown up, and Aziraphale and Crowley are workshopping a backup plan. Crowley wants Aziraphale to kill the antichrist. He makes a greater good argument because he knows Aziraphale responds to those sometimes. Aziraphale still insists that he has never killed anything before. The executioner doesn't count. The meat doesn't count. There's no blood on his hands literally, there's no blood on his hands figuratively. Aziraphale doesn't disagree that it would be for the greater good, but he still isn't willing to do it. Neither is Crowley.

On the way to the ex-nunnery Aziraphale gives a whole ass speech about evil containing the seeds of its own destruction. It is very self righteous, and the speech does ingroup Crowley into that evil. He is the one who botched the baby switch over. It's a way for Aziraphale to not worry about the prospect of hell winning the war, as he is trying to accept the inevitability of the great plan. At the same time, I think it was an attempt from Aziraphale to argue that to the extent Crowley was involved in things going wrong, the blame was with the role he was playing as an employee of hell, for which he is not responsible. As in, it wasn't that you were a low quality employee of hell, hell's plans are inherently doomed to failure. I think from Crowley’s perspective it reads as ‘demons will inevitably fuck everything up, it’s what you do.’ Not that different to Aziraphale’s ”you’re a demon, that's [lying] what you do,” from the previous night. 

Paintball

I could pretend like we are going to talk about guns giving weight to a moral argument, but honestly their positions here are more for exposition of the way Aziraphale and Crowley’s paired traits often subvert expectations. Aziraphale the angel is more willing to consider violence or the threat of violence worthwhile than Crowley the demon is. The actual merits and disadvantages of absolutist pacifism aren't really something they are hashing out. We’re here for the saucy bits.

While I did enjoy reading the theory that Aziraphale had Crowley time miracle the coat so that it never had the paint in it in the first place, whilst also eliminating Aziraphale’s memory of the paint, I don’t buy it. There was no reason Aziraphale couldn’t just miracle the paint away himself. He still remembers that the paint was there and that Crowley miracled it away. When he rambles about “but I would always know it was there… “ He is spouting nonsense. The pivotal part of the communication is not his flimsy words, it’s him slowly hopping his shoulder towards Crowley’s face while making puppy eyes. ‘But would Aziraphale really just make up obvious lies to Crowley like that?’ you ask. “Is that a travel sweet?” I retort. See this gif breakdown of the paint miracle scene.

Why the act? Because as much as Aziraphale knows he is in love with a demon, he wants Crowley to do all the romancing bits. It’s mirroring the Bastille nonsense, baiting Crowley to come to the rescue. Before he was still lying to himself about his motivations, now he knows them, but can’t speak them. Here there are enough clues for Crowley to figure out what Aziraphale wants him to do, but not necessarily why he wants it, and Aziraphale isn’t ready to have that conversation.  See the spicy meta.

Aziraphale continues to regard Crowley to be a nice and good person, who is living in the transient condition of being existentially evil due to his current demonic status. This is pretty out of step with how Crowley views himself, which is its own complicated mess, and it’s something he is touchy about. Enough to make him angry and 'slam' Aziraphale into a wall. Not that Aziraphale regrets any of it for a second. Maybe he regrets getting interrupted. 

We get another glimpse at Aziraphale’s conceptualisation of angels and demons. Crowley refers to them both together as occult forces. Entities that are basically the same thing. Aziraphale takes offence to being described as occult, and insists that as an angel he is ethereal. I think these descriptions follow their metaphysical properties, not their professional role. Crowley might call himself a former demon after getting fired, Michael might call Aziraphale a former angel after Aziraphale is sacked, but Crowley is still occult, and Aziraphale is still ethereal. Aziraphale’s concept of abstract existential alignment with good and evil goes to the occult / ethereal distinction, not the professional one. 

Aziraphale doesn't tell Crowley he has found the antichrist. In my opinion, this is 100% because he knows Crowley will respond by telling him to kill the antichrist, and Aziraphale already knows he isn't willing to do that. He wants to have his own alternative plan before he tells Crowley. Unfortunately, he's often not very good at the coming up with his own plan part, so the strategy doesn't really work out for him.

Crowley Gives Mixed Messages Too

I think it has been and continues to be Aziraphale’s hope to bring Crowley back to angelic status. And I think there are reasons why he believes Crowley wants that too.

Crowley and Aziraphale are often speaking not quite the same language. They’ve got different exactlys. The Bandstand scene starts right off the bat with a small example.

“Have you found the missing antichrist’s name, address, and shoe size yet?”

“His shoe size, why would I have his shoe size?”

If Crowley spoke Aziraphale’s language a bit better he might have noticed Aziraphale just admitted to knowing the antichrist’s name and address. If he hadn't found any of the facts, he would have just said no. Crowley takes it as sass because that's what it would have been if he had said it himself. This will be the theme of the Bandstand, they each interpret what has been said to them as if it meant what they would have meant if they had personally said it. 

Crowley gets shouty about the Great blasted Plan. When Aziraphale responds, “May you be forgiven,” it isn’t just about shaming Crowley for lashing out, Aziraphale is starting to be resigned to the idea that Armageddon will happen, he believes heaven will win, and he doesn’t want Crowley destroyed. Aziraphale is saying 'may you be spared from the destruction of the great plan.'

Crowley responds, “I won’t be forgiven. Not ever. Part of a demon’s job description. Unforgivable, that’s what I am.” Crowley is making a philosophical incision. Aziraphale’s phrasing called to mind forgiveness from an authority outside himself, presumably God. Crowley is commenting that were God to grant that forgiveness, it would create a paradox. When God made Crowley a demon, She declared him unforgivable. God is infallible, so She can’t forgive him without being wrong, and She can’t be wrong. It isn’t meant as a representation of Crowley’s actual opinion, he isn't being self deprecating, it's a statement presented for the sake of argument, to make a dig at something Aziraphale said.

The dig doesn’t land though, because Aziraphale doesn’t parse God with formal logic, She’s motherfucking ineffable. Who said demons are unforgivable? Did they say it with words? Even if it was God Herself, Aziraphale has long understood that God plays messed up games, he just believes there is a greater good at the end. He could believe that God chose to cast Crowley out, proclaim that means he is forever unforgivable, and then later go, 'just kidding, welcome back lol.' It could be a lesson for the other angels, a lesson for the other demons, it could be about putting Crowley in the right place at the right time, it doesn't matter. God is ineffable, and that means Aziraphale can't be told what God thinks by anyone, including God. "That's ridiculous, you're ridiculous, I don't even know why I'm still talking to you." 

As he is wont to do, Aziraphale is very quick to take Crowley’s facetious statements at face value if it gets him somewhere he wants to go. Recall, “Oh, you’re an angel, I don’t think you can do the wrong thing.” Now we have Crowley bitterly, resentfully, describing himself as unforgivable specifically because he is a demon. If taken at face value out of context it isn’t that much of a stretch to read it as Crowley essentialising himself as evil, resenting being unforgiven, and thinking being a demon is the evidence that he is unforgivable. Right after Crowley states “unforgivable, that’s what I am,” Aziraphale brings up that he used to be an angel. Crowley brushes it off as having been a long time ago, but never specifies that he wouldn’t want to be one again. 

Aziraphale can see as much as the audience can that Crowley likes being able to have the opportunity to do kind things for people but is curtailed by the expectations of his position as a demon. What Aziraphale doesn't see is that the good deeds Aziraphale does for heaven are probably not what Crowley likes doing either.

One of the points that comes up in The Bastille is that Aziraphale gets in trouble for doing too many frivolous miracles. While I don't think that's the real reason he won't miracle himself free, I do believe that the strongly worded note happened. We see modern Aziraphale doing miracles as favours for humans pretty often, fairly recklessly, and I wouldn't be surprised if Aziraphale regularly got in trouble for doing unsanctioned good deeds. We also don’t see him have the same enthusiasm for his tedious assignments that he is given from heaven that he has for spontaneous favours.

If they actually talked it through I think Aziraphale could understand that what Crowley wants is more about the freedom to do specifically the good and mischievous deeds that he wants to do, rather than being forced to follow management's checklists. If they talked through it, Aziraphale might be able to realise that's also what he wants for himself.

Holierly Than Thou

At the Bandstand fight Crowley again raises the option to kill the antichrist. Aziraphale argues Crowley is the more appropriate choice for executioner, that way "heaven won’t have blood on its hands." He means his own angelic hands, that he still believes are mostly aligned with his intuition of God’s will. While he knows it is often God’s will for things to die, he doesn’t tend to believe it’s God’s will for him to kill someone or something directly. Aziraphale knows God and heaven have the blood of billions on their hands, though he is very good at avoiding paying attention to that fact. He also is still trying to maintain the appearance of being on team heaven, and by starting to think that the great plan is going to happen, he's feeling the need to lean into that more.

Crowley responds, “That's a bit holier than thou, isn't it?”

Aziraphale answers, “I am. A good deal holier than thou, that's the whole point.” 

He means that when he says it. This is not a joke, it is not said flippantly. Aziraphale is ethereal and Crowley is occult. He cannot let go of the idea that angels are inherently 'good' in comparison to demons even if it's mostly reduced to an abstract quality that is unrelated to an entity's character or actions. It is still what he believes, it’s still connected to his sense of his role in the universe. It’s not what he sees himself believing when he’s staring at Crowley’s lips, but just because the belief isn’t always visible to conscious!Aziraphale doesn’t mean it’s gone. 

When Crowley says 'holier than thou' he means it figuratively. He is accusing Aziraphale of being pretentious. It is a fair accusation, but not quite what Aziraphale is trying to mean. When Aziraphale responds that he is 'holier' he is referring to his ethereal status, not his personality. He can view Crowley as being the better person, and still consider himself more holy. Aziraphale reads the accusation from Crowley literally. To him Crowley might as well have said, 'what, do you think you're some kind of angel?' What can he say to that but '...Yes?'

Crowley’s response is my inner philosopher’s favourite line in the whole show, “You should kill the boy yourself, holierly.” If Aziraphale is good and holy by definition, and everything he does is a good and holy thing by definition because he is an angel, wouldn’t him murdering an 11 year old boy whilst being an angel be definitionally good and holy?

Aziraphale can’t go that far and Crowley knows it. That’s why Aziraphale is refusing to do the killing in such a pretentious way. Which ought to mean that Aziraphale understands the moral goodness or badness of his actions are not defined by his angelic status. Crowley is trying to get Aziraphale to put that together and admit it. However, Aziraphale did not reason himself into his position, and that means Crowley can’t reason him out of it.

The main driving force for Aziraphale here is he knows it would feel wrong to kill the child, and therefore he won't do it. It gets him defensive because there is a clear and obvious moral greater good argument for killing the kid, and he's been rationalising various atrocities of God with greater good arguments for a long time. He ought to be persuaded by the greater good, but he can feel that he isn't. That friction is making him get bitchy. Aziraphale is the one more ok with guns. Aziraphale is the one who disparages himself for being soft. Aziraphale is ok with the ends justifying the means. I don't think he sees his personal unwillingness to kill the kid as moral superiority, he might even see it as a moral failing. His comments on holiness are about angel esthetics, not morals.

Killing the antichrist wouldn’t feel right to Aziraphale, therefore it isn’t God’s will for him to do that, and there must be another solution. Through no fault of his own, Aziraphale is correct. Unfortunately for Crowley, this exchange comes across as Aziraphale insisting he is too morally superior to Crowley to be expected to be personally involved in preventing Armageddon. Aziraphale doesn’t actually want Crowley to kill the antichrist instead, he is mostly pointing out that there is some hypocrisy to Crowley being deeply invested in the kill the antichrist plan whilst being unwilling to personally do it. Aziraphale isn’t willing to do it either, but he isn’t the one pushing the plan. It’s been Crowley’s plan every time.

The Bandstand argument is also where Aziraphale says “We’re not friends, we’re an angel and a demon. We have nothing whatsoever in common. I don’t even like you.” This is tonally distinct from his other problematic statements, and mostly rubbish. Crowley responds to Aziraphale’s assertions with the level of dignity they deserve: “You dooooooo.” But there are traces of authenticity to Aziraphale still struggling to conceptualise them as being properly friends as long as they are designated an angel and a demon. It’s been an issue this whole time. However, there is one major sign of the issue finally lifting, in the least expected place.

“Even if I did know something I wouldn’t tell you, we’re on opposite sides!” 

“We’re on our own side.” 

“Not anymore. It’s over.”

Not anymore.

We have never seen Aziraphale acknowledge that he and Crowley are on each other’s side. He once asked if Crowley saw it that way, but he didn’t agree to seeing it that way himself. He never lets himself say it as a statement, I don’t think he has let himself believe it or think it. Veil!Aziraphale cannot allow conscious!Aziraphale to perceive himself as being currently on the same side as a demon, working together against God, that is too terrifying to consider. But when he convinces himself that they aren’t working together anymore, he can let himself see that they were on the same side together in the past. It’s less threatening that way. I think in Aziraphale’s mind, they were on the same side insofar as Crowley was helping him bring the universe towards his idea of God’s ineffable plan, and not that he was deviating from God’s ineffable plan. He didn’t see himself as leaving God for Crowley, he imagined Crowley had joined him in being aligned with God intuitively, even if Crowley would disagree with that description.

This exchange is remarkably honest from Aziraphale, but spoken in a language Crowley doesn’t quite understand. Aziraphale has effectively said he does know where the antichrist is, but is unwilling to tell Crowley, because while he had started to consider himself and Crowley on their own side together, he doesn’t any more, because Aziraphale won’t accept either running away or child murder as solutions.

I think Crowley mostly just hears “Fuck you.” And to be honest, that's valid.

Post 7/10

[atopearth]

Ikemen Vampire Part 15 - Charles-Henri Sanson Route

Considering how gentle Charles is all the time, it's crazy that their first meeting was so physical but I'm not complaining, that kiss on her neck to get these guys to back off was hot. Charles is so cute, I love him, especially when he told the heroine to practise calling his name without any formalities haha. He's so flirty, I love it hahaha. Charles is so right about Faust though, he seems scary but is a big softie on the inside hahaha. Charles rambles alot about wanting to be loved so I'm curious about why that is. It's cute how they enjoyed a very typical date and Charles even had the heroine promise that she'll never cry alone anymore and that he'll be with her. Warm hands, warm heart sounds like a nice thing. It's kinda cute how smitten Charles is with the heroine, but it seems like we will get to know more about him now. I never knew he was the executioner who executed both King Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette so that was interesting to know. I guess that unsettling feeling about Charles' smiles and "love" has come to light. To him, in order to be loved, you need to keep giving more and more love to the other person in response and that way, you'll receive more and more love as well, which is understandable to an extent but also so saddening because it just goes to show that the love Charles knows of has always been a transactional form of love more than anything else.

Something I found sweet was when Vlad asked Charles to bring the heroine to the mansion and Charles hesitated because he wants to protect her from getting hurt more than anything else, enough that he was willing to oppose Vlad and I think that's really good already considering how he always tries to get on Vlad's good side. I actually feel quite bad for the heroine. At least in Faust's route, she was kidnapped from the get go so she never thought Faust was a good person, but with Charles, she trusted him, liked him and then got kidnapped to meet his "god", I would be terrified. Teaching Charles about love huh? It's a weird condition she must fullfill to be allowed to leave but a very difficult one lol. Let me say that when I first started this route, I didn't expect Charles to be the most "promiscuous" one of the three hahaha. But I do understand why, since if he seeks love, "making love" is what he would understand to be the ultimate way in loving another person, especially when the people he knows seek that form of love to show their love. Even though Charles is difficult with his superficial understanding of love, alike the heroine, I don't think I could leave him alone, especially when you can see him crying out verbally and through his pain his desire to be truly loved and to not be abandoned. I really liked the CG of the heroine and Charles holding each other, I think Charles really needed it. He's always been so alone, so cold, having to bear the deaths of all those people he executed even though he had no choice but to do so. He had to carry the burden of all those deaths even though he wasn't the one who ordered them. The life of an executioner is one nobody should have to bear. Even though he wasn't the one who condemned King Louis XVI to death, the fact that he was grateful to the former king but was forced to be the one to execute him will always haunt him. It didn't help that no one mourned his death and instead rejoiced in it. I can see why Charles lost his sense of balance with the death, because if someone who sought for peace had to die for the public to see his death as a good thing, then where is the justice in that? Personally, I think out of three new LIs, Charles' story was the weakest and I'm not sure how well it connected to his desire to be loved.

I think it was pretty sad for it to suddenly click to Charles that all these "house calls" he's been doing wasn't love at all. It hurts to see Charles finally understand his love for the heroine and because of that love learn to let her go through a misunderstanding that she wants to go back to the mansion, which I guess isn't a complete misunderstanding but he shouldn't be the one to make the choice for her. It's difficult for her to choose between staying with Charles or going back to the mansion, but if she doesn't choose for herself, she'll never be satisfied, so I'm frustrated that Charles lied to her and pushed her away because he thinks he's tying her down, but I do understand his view since he thinks that he's been so selfish all this time forcing her to be here. It's sad to think that Charles might be brainwashed, that would be terrible. Napoleon is so sweet to understand and consider the heroine's feelings and to ask her what she wants to do and is immediately on board to protect her so she can save Charles. But I think the sweetest thing was when Napoleon said Charles wasn't reborn to just return to a life of killing. Charles has suffered so much as an executioner and would never willingly want to return to killing. It was tough to watch Charles fight against the mind control and fight against his conviction to not kill anymore. The CG of him killing himself to stop himself from going on a rampage killing Napoleon and them was devastatingly cruel. Charles has never lived a life that was happy, but he was able to experience happiness and love for the first time with the heroine, and it's terrible that she had to watch helplessly as he did that to himself. When the heroine suddenly woke up back at the mansion, I thought it was a dream but brushed it off since it was so long lmao, but I'm glad it really was a "dream" in that Vlad was showing her a possible future that is quite likely. The heroine thinking about how Charles was okay with being picked last in a game with kids because he's used to being picked and hated made me sad, especially because I know the feeling of always being picked last, of being the one no one wants and of being the one people only go to because there's no one else, except Charles sometimes didn't even get to be picked. I guess the heroine is right that if Charles always chooses to love in the way that he did by letting them go for the sake of their happiness then he will always be alone and so will she. I think that was a sweet way to show him that even though it's a kind way to love, it's not something she wants and shouldn't be something they desire in the future. I feel sad that Vlad "lost" the love of his life, the heroine to Charles but I'm happy that he was able to consider Charles important enough that he was okay with it even if it hurt him.

Overall, I personally thought Charles' route was the weakest of the three with Vlad being my favourite and Faust being second. I quite enjoyed Charles search for what love was because I kinda liked how cute and sweet he was to go around town with the heroine and let her forget about her worries. Even though he didn't know what love was, I think he was able to convey how much he loved the heroine through his actions and feelings that he didn't understand until later on. I think my biggest issue with the route was that I think his past could have been better explored and the guilt of being an executioner better linked to his desire for love because I always felt that I didn't really understand or feel his reasons for wanting to be loved to link well with the burden of killing others. But I do think Charles' expressions of pain and confusion were very apt and I enjoyed watching over the heroine accept him and try to guide him by expressing her feelings for him through her actions and words and I thought that was sweet.

[the-other-blue]

He knew. Because why else wouldn't he?

Always the one in the shadows, never the one in the spotlight. Yet even with freedom as a blessing, the curse of knowledge was still one resting on his shoulders.

No amount of time spent in the woods, no amount of solitude, and no amount of sharing memories with family would relieve him of that.

Knowledge comes with a price, one that both his mother and sister had also paid for. Yet neither of them had been... "blessed" with the same methods he did.

His isolation wasn't only for want of rest after years of his people being slaughtered. It was to avoid accidentally discovering details and secrets he wasn't meant to know.

Yet... Here he was again. Fighting. Protecting. Wielding a weapon that felt lighter than the weight on his shoulders.

One precise throw of it.

One dive through the aetherial lines left by it.

One swift motion with enough momentum to behead the large creature before him.

......

It fits him like a glove.

The spear is tough, and his movements are clearly stiff (at least to his standards). Too much time idling, hiding, and resting can do that to one's flexibility and muscles. But his armor was different.

He couldn't feel a single section of it creaking or protesting against any movement he did. The cloth wasn't too warm or too cold. The wind couldn't seep through it at the speed in which he could dive and come back out. And the armored pieces weren't crashing against one another, making sounds, or hindering his movements.

It was the perfect fit for him. Simple as that.

And the first time he'd ever worn it.

If a captain, or vice captain of the Crystarium ever wore far better armor than his peers, only to let the soldiers do the work and watch them being slaughtered, he was no better than what Eulmore had become. There is something inherently stupid about that philosophy, that much he knows.

If figures of direction go down, it would only make things more difficult to coordinate for the survivors. He should know, because he'd seen it happen. His captain had died. His squadron had gone into chaos. And Rhea had stared dumbfounded and bloodied as he wasn't the one to resolve a life or death situation but his own bloody mother.

But Rhea's blood refused to let that go, stay alive and in safety and make sure order never falls into chaos. If there was danger to face, he'd always be there, at the frontlines. And he'd do anything in his power to set his fellow soldier's worries at ease. Act like a reckless idiot. Wooo! And what not. Rally everyone while still barking orders for direction. Facing something that could kill you with a scratch wasn't a matter of being reckless. It was a matter of keeping calm and seeing the best paths through at all times.

At all times. And wearing dingy generic armor.

Sometimes the leather could give in. Others he'd accidentally tear away a pauldron. And there was even one where the chainmail literally made it impossible for him to dive and almost costed him an eye. The only commodity he'd ever allowed himself were his weapons. And even then, relying solely on them was a crutch he refused to ever accept.

But now? Where he is standing on his own with no lives on his hands? His body may be heavy, his bones may protest from a lack of action for so long. His blood is taking a moment to warm up. But his armor fits like a glove, and his spear isn't as heavy as it used to be.

But, no.

People will die today. Just none that he knows of or would lament.

Hypocritical to say the least.

Rhua was in there. And his mother was standing on her own before blasphemies. He was just noise introduced into the fight. Just an extra hand to handle these attackers. He was just an executioner doing a side job. Tasting the freedom of not being the one responsible for their doom.

[aho-dapa]

No, I get it, I tend to get lost in my own words when I'm trying to make more than one point

I think I wrote this in replies to different people but I definitely have a tolerance for honestly anything when it comes to fiction mostly, so dark romance tropes don't really faze me. But I did end up getting really frustrated with sjm because she ended up trying to moralize something the couldn't adequately be discussed with the foundations of the book she had written.

Tbh this also reminds me of false imprisonment and the ethics of involuntary treatment, because depending on what lens I'm looking at feylin's dynamic, I can apply both (whether it's through a hyper realistic one or one that has to work with sjm's inconsistent writing).

I would definitely question Feyre's mental state before Tamlin confined her to the Manor. My whole discomfort with that scene is that while, yeah, irl this situation is inexcusable in a partnership/relationship, this exact scene doesn't exist irl. Besides the fantasy of it all and the suspension of disbelief we're already asked to have (something that's honestly difficult to do with sjm switching between different vibes with time periods and morals), Tamlin as High Lord is the government in a sense. He's judge, jury, and executioner. Which isn't unique to historical fiction, fantasy, and even dark romance—some books even set out to purposefully have this type of dynamic in a relationship. But that also means, that by the morals that are typically the norm in these books, Tamlin is well within his "right" to have power over Feyre as her ruler by her currently being a citizen of the Spring Court.

At best, with sjm's worldbuilding, with Feyre being potentially suicidal and with modern ethnics in mind, all Tamlin could realistically do to stay within that "morally good" place is to let Feyre come after him on his military expedition of scouting out Hybern (a kingdom? that is actively trying to find her at best and arguably kill AGAIN at worst). In that sense, I do agree with you, Tamlin does have both a personal and legal responsibility to Feyre. Because he's not just her partner, he's also her ruler. And with her being the potential Lady of the Spring Court, she's also not only his partner but also is (somewhat) a legal force in her own right. Her actions don't exist in a vacuum. Her actions don't just affect Tamlin or her on personal level but the Court itself.

It's why I think that she shouldn't have tried to force Tamlin to take her along because despite her intentions, she does not have the same capabilities of other High Fae that have specifically been trained to fight other highly skilled warriors.

In a reply, I said this: Realistically, despite if Feyre needs to do this specific act of service, she would still be a liability and even could make mistakes that could lead to the endangerment of other people. (Side note, I don’t disagree that Feyre can’t help others, just that she’s choosing the things that she can’t help with and deciding to make her grave there).

In short, Tamlin is acting as a High Lord and as her partner in that scene. (What he did wasn't right, but from we know from sjm's worldbuilding, what should he have done as you said with the resources they would have if she would forcefully try to come along?)

I also said this: And that’s why I find Tamlin’s action here not completely abusive (because it is, in the strictest sense) but they don’t exist in our world and they don’t live with our morals.

That's also why I personally disliked having this opinion in the first place because taking it from this fictional world to the real world, I had to face some of my own personal bias with involuntary treatment, especially when it has to do with suicidal ideation. Irl, I completely believe that if Feyre and Tamlin were romantic partners (and even if he was idk, the president or something), Tamlin's action here is false imprisonment and a form of abuse even if he had "good" intentions. But even in this situation, it can't be the same as we would treat it irl.

I also think that the difference for me personally is that Nesta's situation and her forced "intervention" is one that I can apply very easily irl and even a situation I've been through (with complicated results), but Tamlin and Feyre's situation is not.

I made a post exactly about this, just not with the same words: [this is also ignoring the fact that I consider acomaf Tamlin a retcon and I don't think he would do any of this regardless of me finding it justified or not.] and that's because Tamlin doesn't exist as one person for me. When I'm discussing the books and even critiquing them, Tamlin exists as both with sjm's retcons of him and not for me. It's honestly makes me exhausted with discussing this series because there's so many things to get through first to even make a point by itself because of her retcons and her writing craft alone.

But genuinely, thank you for talking with me fr!! I've really been just wanting to have a talk about this

tbh this might be a controversial take even within our little corner of the internet, but I don't see Tamlin as abusive.

I'd love to actually have a good natured conversation about this honestly and even to see if anyone else agrees.

My opinion can honestly be summed up into that while I do believe that Tamlin did shitty things to Feyre (primarily only really her being confined to the Manor but even then I have more thoughts on that) and her to him, he isn't Feyre's abuser in the way that sjm was aiming for.

I've kinda been feeling almost guilty for this feeling, but I also just wanna explore this idea and not create my own inner echo chamber.

[author-of-worlds]

Tia short, Tia short! With executioners?

Tia never liked being left alone for too long. Between running and hiding with her new guardian, being alone was dangerous for the young girl. But Sarah always said she had to leave, always to scout ahead, to check on things and make sure they're safe.

'I won't be long,' she'd always say. And then she'd hand her a math puzzle sheet to keep her occupied until she returned.

But the puzzle sheet was done, and Sarah still wasn't back. That left her mind to wander, and that... for some reason, nowadays, that never lead to anything good.

As Tia sat in the corner of the room, she started counting down the minutes on the clock, steadily waiting for what she assumed was the setting sun outside the blinds. The shadows grew, and the closet- Wait. The closet wasn't open before... and something...

Someone was in the room.

The feeling hit her almost immediately, causing Tia to scramble to her feet, and not too soon as tendrils of ink-black hair suddenly protruded from the inside. A white, smiling theater mask showed itself as the woman emerged, dishing out one order for the child. "Don't be difficult."

She was going to be difficult. Not even hesitating, Tia opened up the nearest window and jumped outside, the setting sun seeming to freeze as another being shot out at the speed of light. The first woman's inverse, the holder of the frowning mask had arrived, only this one had summoned her spear, and she was going in for the kill. "We've got you now!"

Tia, however, didn't have any plans on getting caught. The ground, which had been so far away before, suddenly grew up around her, forming walls to a well that she proceeded to fall down while the Executioner hit its side. Wider the well walls grew until Tia was falling into a pit, a pit that, to her shock, the other Executioner had jumped down. Ah, right. Shadowy places. That was the other's domain, and now she just had to see if she could lose her too.

Gracefully, this other Executioner straightened herself out quickly, summoning her large saber as her eyes locked onto Tia. She didn't say anything though as she dove downward, aiming to slash the kid as her blade extended. But Tia's mind worked quickly as the girl let out a startled scream, rope wrapping around the woman's leg and jolting her back and preventing her from further falling. The well bucket and rope, which... had they been there before? No, they hadn't, had they? Probably not. The world always seemed to change on a whim these days. It was... puzzling to say the least.

As the Executioner got wrapped up in the ropes from the well, Tia continued to stare up at her as she fell further and further away. That one would be preoccupied for now, but the light one was still active... She'd have to stay out of the light then. No more light, and no more... ah. She was still falling. Shoot.

Tia's descent into the bottomless pit seemed to stop the second she realized the danger she was in, the girl letting out a startled yelp as she landed on something soft and bounced upward for a brief moment. Was this... a trampoline? Ah! She'd always loved trampolines! A great way to end yet another day of running for her life.

As she settled on the trampoline for a moment, the kid took a moment to lead, only to then shriek when the shadowy Executioner's saber sliced through the material nearby. Oh. Oh dear... Perhaps she should get moving.

With one final glare sent upwards, Tia got to her feet and made her way to a cave, a tube slide waiting to take her to... who knows where honestly. She could never tell with this world. It was often a lot of bad, but right now it seemed to be a lot of good. So she took the slide, aiming to head away from the duo. And perhaps she would find Sarah along the way.