#which is how i'm sure y'all feel when i talk about utena

[gideonisms]

Okay as with everything else in my life I can definitely solve this one by committee

[alms4oblivion]

So do y'all just like, not care at all about people liking your fandom and wanting to check out your show??? Literally cheating to get to the front of the line? "Hey, we're mad our show got cancelled but we're really passionate about it, so we're just gonna hack the vote until we WIN! Also love and peace and positivity <3 I don't care if our fandom's actions are ruining -your- fun let's just all be nice and spread positivity lol <3" like hello??? Warrior Nun was a show I was genuinely considering checking out, but if this is how you guys are no way??? Can't even imagine what the rest of the fandom is like if you're gonna be this desperate so II know for sure I'm bailing and I'm not the only one.

It's genuinely like, really disheartening to see these polls that SHOULD be about fandom love and friendly competition turn into something the other side now has to spread information on how to voter fraud BACK just to have a shot at even remotely competing with a show that's just not as well known as it's competition. You say you don't care about fraud, yeah, your ship is winning bc of it??? And really dampening the fun for everyone else :/

Hi anon, I'm really sorry you're so upset and feel like this process has lost its fun for you. I'm not sure why you came to my asks, but I'll assume that this is a legitimate attempt at outreach and trying to find common ground. With that goal in mind, I'll take this opportunity to talk about, for I hope the last time, the strangest, nastiest Tumblr poll I have ever witnessed.

First of all, I'm relatively new to Tumblr, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt: if voter fraud in Tumblr polls deeply upsets you, I recommend you avoid engaging with polls that enthusiastically encourage voter fraud and direct people to how-to guides about voter fraud. I'm not criticizing other anonymous WN fans for voter fraud just like I'm not criticizing Utena fandom for the MASSIVE voter fraud they did in the poll against Avatrice (or that Alphyne fandom did against Avatrice, or Harumichi, or Griddlehark), and for the same reason: this tournament allows it, loudly encourages it, and helps people figure out how to do it. I don't do it myself, but I would feel very weird about castigating someone else for following a competition's rules because they broke the "spirit" of the competition and accusing them of "cheating" when (a) I have no idea what the spirit of Tumblr polls is supposed to be, because (2) in the last four polls of the competition, our opponents (including RGU fans) were extremely enthusiastic about all the voter fraud they were doing!

Go back and check the beginning of the poll you're upset about. The note where someone was claiming the need to fight back against Avatrice voter fraud when Avatrice was losing by 65% - 35% or something. Who is pushing for voter fraud in the notes? Not Avatrice.

If you go back and look at the last poll we had? Same thing. Same person posting a "how to" guide to voter fraud and claiming that Avatrice is only winning because of it.

Same in the poll before that, during which they admitted they had committed fraud across the tournament to benefit their favorite ships, including being the clear difference between a ship advancing and not (if you don't care to look, they were taking credit for Harumichi beating Korrasami at the very end of the poll). Here's the last poll we had before this person got involved:

Looks pretty standard, right? In every poll since then, this person has started off with either massive fraud themselves, or (when they did it so much Tumblr stopped letting them make new accounts) asking/begging other people to fraud for them and posting a guide for how to do it. And people did. And Avatrice fans fought back. And won. Every time. Even when the tournaments admins actively started encouraging people to commit fraud against them.

(As far as "hacking" to win: you made this up because you were bitter, or you're repeating the accusation of someone else who did. Sorry if that hurts to hear. No one hacked Tumblr to win a poll. At worst, a bunch of people made new accounts over and over again to vote a bunch of times.)

Again: I don't care for "voter fraud," don't have the time for it, don't find it enjoyable. But I'm not going to begrudge anyone from defending themselves when struck first. Which is what happened to Avatrice in the last four polls of the tournament. As for me, my indifference to voter fraud has been consistent: I first stated it when we were down by 1000 when Harumichi fandom first started using voter fraud (at the urging of the same person, who also literally offered to bribe a Twitch streamer to try to get her to help them win). I told the person frauding on the other side to have fun, and went back to posting what I loved about Avatrice.

In the meantime, Warrior Nun fans were consistently the most respectful and decent in the face of increasingly outrageous behavior by every fandom we faced. The usual "SHIPNAME KILL," "RISE SHIPNAME WARRIORS," "respect your roots/learn your history/SHIPNAME is the blueprint," "I've never even heard of OPPOSING SHIPNAME" posts, I guess we're supposed to ignore because Tumblr notes that make you sound like you belong on Twitter are...edgy or witty or something? So set those aside if you want. You're still left with a ton of just nasty ad hominem attacks (which Warrior Nun fandom never returned). The threats were interesting ("we should dox and injure them for fun," "we should kill the fraudster"), especially when the admins didn't do anything about them except to delete the anti-harassment language from their posts going forward. The blatant racism was a special treat ("WHO ARE THESE WHITE WOMEN" when one member of the ship is Asian).

You know what though? Every time that happened...the gap got bigger. Avatrice fans posted more about why they love the ship. Avatrice won by more. And I think that's beautiful. That love beat hate. Because I agree that this should be about sharing love for something that brings you joy. Not one ship tried that strategy against Avatrice, though.

To be fair, RGU fandom had the highest percentage of people who were not like this. There were several RGU fans who actually took the time to explain what they loved about their ship (and I happen to know there's SO MUCH to love about Utenanthy!). But there were so many more who couldn't resist posting how much worse Avatrice voters were because (checks notes) they had a different order of preference for sapphic ships. There was also endless whining about voter fraud when the graph looks like this.

To me, this looks like both sides did a ton of voter fraud, Utenanthy fans started it, and Avatrice fans finished it, because more of them were more passionate about winning, and because, I imagine, the endless rudeness towards Avatrice and Warrior Nun fans made for excellent whiteboard material that fueled the voting patterns you see above. But if you want to imagine what this would have looked like with no bots, feel free to compare the semifinal round numbers of RGU with the last round in which Avatrice's graph looked "normal."

Utenanthy: 2460

Avatrice: 2776

I have no idea if that will make you feel better or worse, but my genuine hope is that it doesn't make you feel anything. Because none of this matters except to the extent it brightens or darkens your day. Revolutionary Girl Utena isn't losing the movie because of this. They aren't going back and changing the ending so Akio wins. It was a masterpiece a month ago, and it'll be a masterpiece tomorrow, and you can literally go watch it RIGHT NOW and enjoy it all again.

I was writing fan fic for Avatrice when this poll started. I continued while it was ongoing. I'm going to continue when it's done. I do that to share joy. That's it. I wasn't going to delete anything if Avatrice lost. I'm not writing anything new because they won. This was a shared (weird) experience with other fans, and an insight into a level of Tumblr toxicity I had heard about but never witnessed; that's it.

You say this experience put you off Warrior Nun and its fandom, and that's obvious your prerogative. For me, this reinforced why I love the present version of the Warrior Nun fandom. Because most fandom I see is awful. People trying to hurt each other for no good reason. People fighting over clout, or money, or popularity, or which of them is the most righteous and moral. And Warrior Nun fandom isn't like that.

When I look back on this experience, if I do, I'm not going to feel any way about the voter fraud nonsense. I'll feel proud that Avatrice fans never insulted another ship. Or shouted about killing something someone else loved as a joke. Or threatened to hurt or kill someone. Or tried to whitewash anyone or stood quietly alongside someone spewing racism because they wanted to win a Tumblr poll. Or tried to erase the love someone else had for something by saying "I've never even heard of it." Or tried, in any way, to make anyone else feel like they were wrong for loving something that brought them joy and community.

Sometimes I might feel sad that, apparently, there's not a lot of wlw fandoms on Tumblr that can say all those things.

But then I'm going to go back to trying to do things to bring other people joy. I can't recommend it highly enough.

[girlsships]

Alright friends I'm home sick and I feel gross. Covid negative so far thank goodness but who knows I gotta take the next test tomorrow. I also just finished watching Utena and I HAVE to talk about it. I'm pretty sure I am forever altered. So under the cut are my thoughts. I have read very little other analysis, this is just my initial interpretation and I do NOT know what I'm talking about so y'all have been warned. I only have knowledge of the 1997 tv series and the movie. I don't know what the director said, I don't know what the manga said, I'm just going off of what's in the show and how I feel about it.

So the thing that is most striking to me is the way that Utena pulls the sword directly from Anthy's body. At the beginning it was frankly disturbing, and kind of felt like a reason to get a boob close up. But I think it is a perfect lens through which to watch the show. Anthy is a being with thousands of swords in her body. And Utena is literally pulling them out one by one, which is painful and difficult but ultimately must be done for Anthy to heal.

I was initially very turned off by the show it was strange and incomprehensible. And the most incomprehensible thing about it was Himemiya who was literally a nothing character. It was Utena who made me persist in watching the show and Utena that I could fall in love with as easily as all the characters in the show do. I'm nothing if not a sucker for a good leading lady. And I think if I had been less open to the lessons the show was trying to teach, I would have struggled to enjoy it, because my initial dismissal of Himemiya was wrong. She is every bit the compelling protagonist that Utena is and learning that was so worth it.

Because this is Himemiya's world. It's almost like one of those movies where you find out at the end that the main character has been a patient in a psych ward the whole time. Ohtori is Himemiya's world that she has constructed for herself to avoid the trauma of her life. Except that in this world the trauma she currently experiences has to be normalized. Her horrible partners become princes ranging from abusive and deranged to passive and ineffective. She is the prize everyone wants to win, and what they win is the pleasure of personal power all abusers win. Himemiya has to frame her trauma this way in order to live with it, she has to become passive in her own life. It is only when Utena refuses to let her slip away into the background that she is able to leave this schema she has built for herself and find a way out.

My thoughts on this are so nebulous. I'm thinking about the time my therapist told me that I'm showing up, that I'm doing the work. And the years that showing up would be unthinkable. We--and when I say we I mean those of us who have experienced trauma--build castles for ourselves out of the tools society gives to us. A lot of what I've seen talks about how this show plays with gender, and it does but also that's so not the point. Himemiya uses gender to keep herself trapped. She is both the bird and the cage, and Utena's unrelenting compassion and love is the only thing that can free her. This isn't the story of how Himemiya gets over all her trauma, this is the story of how she learns to show up, of how the castle crumbles and a part of her dies. The prince that saves her revolutionizes the world, but it's not the whole world it's Himemiya's world. A world in which she is not trapped by trauma and the blame for what happens to her is not put on her.

Part of the compelling nature of the show is this world. I've been saying the world is Himemiya's but the people in it are very much real people and not figments of her imagination--at least I don't think we're supposed to read them that way. Rather the "game" for Himemiya is created by her, or I think we should see it as a reflection of how she views people. Each of the Duelists is a potential prince. The prince is the person that will save Himemiya from Akio. When you're suffering in an abusive relationship there are many people that you secretly hope will save you even if you can't bring yourself to tell them what's going on. As viewers, we focus on their motivations for why they want the power of the rose bride because Utena questions those things. But I think if you look at it from Himemiya's perspective the Duelists are people that could save her from Akio. Saiyonji is abusive and obsessive and shows how many victims of abuse will fall into the same patterns with other people. It makes sense that he's the first "prince." He's the obviously bad dude that most people are easily able to spot, the wife beater, the guy who hits women, and in that way he is the easiest to beat. I've seen people question how he got Himemiya in the first place, but I think if you suspend your disbelief you can see how his place in the story fits. It's about abuse, and his is the most obvious and stereotypical form of it.

It's interesting that Himemiya never really cuts ties with Saionji, continuing to reply to his exchange diary. She is almost placating him, and basically says to Utena that she can't see a reason to stop contacting him unless it bothers Utena. With everything that Akio has already done, Saionji doesn't even register as abusive to Himemiya. In fact, with him it's very easy to be passive, he doesn't really seem smart enough to ask much of her other than subservience.

Juri struck me as interesting from the beginning as the only original female Duelist. But looking at it through the point of view that these are all people who might eventually see what's going on and save Himemiya it makes more sense. Juri is that cool upperclassmen, maybe even a teacher, who you hope is going to help you out. And Miki is a friend who genuinely cares about Himemiya who she hopes will also see her and rescue her. In the end both of them are so wrapped up in their own lives that they don't really see what's going on with Himemiya. They're not evil, it's just not their job to save her. And in Miki's case. Touga is probably the most likely savior, the classic savior. He's the honorable guy she's supposed to fall in love with. And in both the movie and the show he's clearly got some trauma that he could relate with. But he is also looking for a prince. He is also looking to be saved and that's why he falls for Utena instead.

And Akio is not a duelist, he is the current prince. Why does Himemiya have to make him a prince? He is clearly the center of her torment, why put him on such a pedestal? Because facing what he is means taking responsibility for your own lack of control. I think anyone who's been abused knows this. If it's your fault, at least you can do something about it. If he's hitting you because you fucked up you can just not fuck up next time. If something bad is happening it's better that it's your fault, because then you can avoid it next time. And sometimes it works to think that way. Because abusers do have catalysts that cause them to commit the abuse, and there are some ways to diffuse a situation, and sometimes knowing that well enough is what you need to survive. It's a cycle and it keeps you going in a horrible relationship.

Himemiya's relationship to Akio is one of complete compliance, she does what he wants even when it means defying her engaged duelist. Because even though she can acknowledge that something is wrong by looking for a new prince, she can't accept that leaving the current prince and defying him is the solution.

Until Utena.

Seeing things from Utena's perspective is so important. Because you are supposed to be disoriented. You are supposed to be confused about why Himemiya is the way she is. Because that's what it's like to be on the outside. It's not like Utena doesn't have problems, it's not like she doesn't have trauma. She's like all the duelists, but the one difference is that she DOES see Anthy. Everyone in the series is like "she's happy like this, she likes this, she chose this, she wants this" and only Utena questions it. Of course, she doesn't want this! No girl could be happy like this! Utena alone dives deeper and questions the situation.

I think it's notable that the conversation around consent in Japan in 1997 was different from the conversation around consent that I'm experiencing in America in 2022. I don't know what they were talking about in Japan at that time, but I think this show brings up a new level to it. There are some things you just can't consent to, you just can't consent to abuse. Some things are always going to be wrong even if you say you want them. And what Akio does to Anthy is one of those things. Abuse and manipulation can make you say yes to everyone even if your heart says no. And the other Duelists, the people in Himemiya's world cannot see that, they cannot see Anthy only the Rose Bride, because they don't question when she says yes.

But this is why it is so vital that Utena does not save Anthy. Utena cannot "save" Anthy, cannot become a prince, because the only person who can save her is herself. I think the entire Mikage arc is a perfect reinforcement of the cyclic way that this happens. The characters go to counselling and face the realities of their issues, their darkest selves, they fight Utena who more than anything represents truth, they are demolished by her, and all of them choose to forget the lessons of this. It isn't until all the original duelists face Utena for the second time that they are able to face what they've been struggling with. None more obviously than Juri who gives up on her own and learns to let go of the broken heart she had for Shiori (not her feelings for Shiori, but the resentment she has towards her).

Like all magical girls, Utena represents truth, innocence, justice, and love. She sees the truth of what Anthy is suffering and chooses to love her through it. And yet Utena is not perfect, like all heroes she must go through trials and make mistakes. And those trials come, I think Anthy is portrayed a little vindictively in the way that she reveals her relationship to Akio. But I don't think that's how we're supposed to read it. When she sets up first Nanami and then Utena to know the truth, I think she does it in an act of desperation. With Nanami she is doing it as a warning, Nanami is also manipulated and ill-used by her brother, and I feel like Anthy gives her a dose of reality to save her from this. Nanami pretty much exits the series shortly after.

She reveals the truth to Utena because she is finally asking for help. That's also why she tries to jump off the tower. She reveals the truth of her pain, the truth self that she is so afraid to tell anyone. Another time in Therapy I told my therapist that it's like I'm filled with spikes, and I'm so afraid that if I show someone they'll be hurt by them. Anthy can't ask for help in plain terms. She can only cause pain, and she knows it. She can only show Utena how broken and damaged she is. And Utena chooses to respond with love and compassion after witnessing the truth.

And when that finally leads us to the end, the truth is all revealed. And in the last moments, the moments of confrontation, Himemiya can't do it. After all this time Utena has been pulling sword after sword out of Anthy so she can start to heal, but Akio just keeps making more. And in a moment of weakness, Himemiya chooses her castle and her world over choosing truth. She does what she was afraid of doing this whole time and truly injures Utena. She goes back to Akio, unable to face the reality of leaving the world she has built.

If this show was at all nihilistic it would have ended there. But the whole point is that Utena doesn't give up. The reason she was impossible to truly defeat is that she has the nobility. The truth is still there, the love is still there, and she knows that regardless of how she was hurt by Himemiya she still deserves to be saved from Akio. And she is able to open the coffin--but notably not pull her out. That iconic moment where their hands reach for each other and Anthy chooses Utena is just the beginning. It's the most important step because no one can save her, but it was the love and kindness of Utena that helped Himemiya to save herself.

Maybe Utena felt defeated, maybe she really did die at the end, but it was because of that confrontation that Anthy was able to leave her brother. And while the movie was a little more satisfying, knowing the two were going to face the world together, I think the series is a little more realistic. Because you don't know that she'll be okay, she wasn't rescued, but she is facing the truth. She is choosing change, and reality, over the constructed fairytale laid out for her. It's not easy, and Anthy Himemiya is not the victim we want her to be. She's messy, weak, and at times cruel. And from the outside, maybe she could have just walked away and saved everyone the trouble. Maybe if she'd been like Utena she could have had her freedom earlier. But that's not what it's like. Trust me.

And what was the power that everyone wanted? What did she have that was so special? It was her. It was the ego boost her abusers got from controlling her. How many times did the series say that every woman is a rose bride in some way? What is Akio's motivation to treat someone so cruelly? Why does he have to manipulate everyone? For the pleasure of doing it. That's why what Utena rejects is not femininity--in fact in many ways she embraces the aesthetic of femininity (ruffles, her long hair, her ring, even though her outfit is a boy's uniform the shorts are distinctly feminine). What Utena rejects is the notion of inherent weakness and frailty associated with womanhood. The times she is said to look "like a girl" is when she looks weakened, pliable, and that's why it's not exactly a plus. That's also why when Anthy stabs her in the back, it's because this idea of womanhood and weakness being tied up is essential to her schema. If Utena can be a prince and a woman, then she can be her own prince. The world and the men in it seek to make Utena a princess because they seek to weaken her.

The power to change things, power in general, comes from the subservience of women. That has been true in most cultures for most of history. I think it's important that the series revolves around this nebulous idea of power because I think the "power" is just the power of abuse. It's very tied up in gender, but I think you can even take a step back from that and think of it as the power to manipulate and control other people, the power to take someone's choice from them. And in Himemiya's world, that's the power that everyone wants, it's the enticement to save her. She'll give you absolute control over her life, if only you'll save her from her fate. And the only thing Utena wants with that power is to free her.