#where humphrey could appreciate how young henry was and be a fun uncle and henry didn't have his daddy issues baggage

[une-sanz-pluis]

What exactly do you think Henry VI thinks of his uncle Humphrey?

I'm glad you said what I think Henry VI thought of his uncle! The personal thoughts of any medieval individual are generally out of reach for us (there are exceptions; for example, we can tell that Henry V was pretty pissed off at his brother, John, Duke of Bedford here). It's even more difficult in the case of Henry VI, where historians have such wildly diverse opinions. The likes of John Watts and K. B. MacFarlane, who view Henry as a void around which kingship in his name was exercised (by his minority council, by his "favourites" Suffolk and Somerset), would probably say that Henry didn't think very much about his uncle or, well, anything. But even looking at the historians (e.g. Ralph Griffiths, Bertram Wolffe and Lauren Johnson) who ascribe to Henry far more agency in his reign will give us vastly different ideas of the relationship between Henry and Humphrey.

Johnson, for examples, depicts Henry as Humphrey's victim, depicting his quarrels with Cardinal Beaufort and his pro-war stance as a source of mental distress for Henry. She also depicts Humphrey as fully complicit in his wife Eleanor's alleged plot against Henry (there is nothing alleged about the plot for Johnson, of course) and arranging for his nephew to be sexually harassed.* For Wolffe, Humphrey is more the victim of a spiteful Henry - for instance, he argues that the treatment of Eleanor was an angry overreaction by Henry, who still bitter that Humphrey opposed his intention to release Charles, Duke of Orleans the previous year.

But what do I think?

Humphrey was pretty obviously a thorn in Henry's side. He seems to have advocated for Henry to get more involved in ruling, even though the circumstances weren't great for an inexperienced king and it appears Henry disliked the experience. As Henry matured, the policies he favoured were frequently in conflict with the policies Humphrey advocated for - as Humphrey often made clear (cf. his actions around the release of Charles, Duke of Orleans). What was often a common thread in Humphrey's chosen policies were that these were Henry V's policies. Humphrey seemed to be simultaneously urging Henry VI to greater independence but insisting that he exercise this independence through following the policies of his father.

It's easy to imagine that this became a sore spot for Henry. It's not nice to be constantly compared to someone else and always be found lacking. It's not nice to be someone who others are trying to shape into someone you're not. The fact that Henry was constantly being compared to his dead father who was becoming heavily mythologised would have only made it worse. It's really easy to imagine Henry coming to resent his father for that and easier still to see him resenting Humphrey who seems to have been the one who stuck at the "your father would've done this, do this, you should be more like your father" the longest.

This advocation of Henry V's policies seems to have led to Humphrey becoming seen as "a man who embodied the qualities Henry V had made them accustomed in a king, and which they were beginning to realize were lacking in their actual king". If Henry believed this too, it may be that he initially found Humphrey to be an intimidating, but not necessarily dangerous, figure - the embodiment of the qualities he was supposed to have, the representative of his father. Even if he didn't share the same view of Humphrey's qualities, Humphrey was, alongside John Duke of Bedford, the closest paternal blood relation Henry VI had and the one Henry saw the most of. He may have seen Humphrey as a threatening figure because of the popular belief that he had the qualities for kingship that Henry himself lacked (though, IMO, he wouldn't have been a good king) and, following Bedford's death in 1435, was Henry VI's heir.

If Henry didn't already view Humphrey as a threat, the accusations of treasonable necromancy against Humphrey's wife Eleanor would have likely made Henry come to that view. Most historians argue that Humphrey ended up estranged from Henry and alienated at court as a result of his wife's downfall. It may be that Henry (and others) suspected Humphrey had been aware of or part of the plot - although there is no evidence that this was ever suspected, much less that Humphrey was involved. At the very least, the accusations suggested that Humphrey was a figure others could see as a king and that he was an untrustworthy figure of poor judgement.**

It's pretty clear that from 1441 on, Humphrey was on the outs with Henry but it doesn't seem to be motivated entirely by fear. Henry made a number of grants in the 1440s of titles that Humphrey held to various people in the event of Humphrey's death (one of the most notable is Suffolk receiving the reversion of the earldom of Pembroke). One chronicle claims that Henry had forbidden his uncle from his presence since 1445 or 1446 and reputedly an armoured guard to fortify himself against his uncle. In 1445, Henry publicly humiliated Humphrey in front of a French embassy (according to Wolffe, the French ambassadors claimed that Henry "openly express[ed] his pleasure at seeing his uncle's discomfiture" at the treaty).

Finally, we have Humphrey's arrest for trumped-charges of treason*** and death in 1447. At the very least, Henry must have been aware and approved of the intention to arrest his uncle. Possibly, as Wolffe concludes, he had decided upon his uncle's "destruction".

We don't know what Henry VI intended to do with Humphrey following his arrest. The popular view at the time was that Suffolk was entirely behind Humphrey's arrest and his intention was Humphrey's murder, which was duly achieved within days of his arrest. It's not impossible that Suffolk was blamed because blaming Henry himself skirted too close to treason. It is pretty well accepted these days that Humphrey was not murdered and died as a result of a medical episode (such as a stroke or heart attack) caused by the stress of his arrest. But we have no idea about how Henry intended to deal with Humphrey, whether he intended to exile, execute, quietly murder or ultimately pardon Humphrey, and whether he was actively and knowingly involved in the plot against Humphrey and to what extent he was involved. Still, at the very least, we know that he approved of Humphrey's arrest and waited until the very last minute to pardon those who were to be executed for their part in Humphrey's so-called plot (iirc, they were literally hanging on the gallows when the pardon arrived). Amongst those pardoned was Humphrey's only known albeit illegitimate son, Arthur.

What is odd is that Humphrey seems to have been no threat to Henry. He may have disagreed with Henry on policy but there is nothing to indicate that his loyalty to Henry was ever in doubt. There is no suggestion he attempted to intervene to save Eleanor or that he planned to remove Suffolk from Henry's side. He did not head up an alternate court party similar to the Lords Ordainers or the Lords Appellant in the reigns of Edward II and Richard II respectively that saw him overthrow and execute Henry's favourites to impose his own will on Henry. Nor is there any evidence he intended to depose Henry to make himself king. As John Watts says, "if there is a single theme in the duke's career, it is one of obedience to Henry's personal authority [...] Faced with the destruction of his wife, a series of threats to his property and, finally, a thoroughly dubious charge of treason, Gloucester was unresisting."

Looking at the the various grants made by Henry of his uncle's titles and lands when he was still-living and the speed at which Humphrey's lands were granted out at his death (including the declaration that Eleanor Cobham was legally dead so she could not claim dower or jointure in the properties), it seems Humphrey had more to fear from his nephew (or those acting in Henry's name) than Henry had to fear from Humphrey. But it's easy to say that with the benefit of hindsight.

In short: I think Humphrey was a thorn in Henry's side, at first representing everything Henry wasn't and frequently disappointed in Henry. He advocated for policies that were frequently the opposite of the policies Henry wanted. He may have been viewed by Henry as a threat but by the mid-1440s seems to have viewed as someone of no importance, who could be publicly humiliated, and who would not fight back against his nephew. His arrest and death are strange but may be signs of resentment or fear by an insecure government and king.

* John Blacman's hagiography of Henry VI contains a scene where an unidentified "certain great lord" arranged for a troupe of female dancers to dance topless before Henry, who then angrily averts his eyes and leaves the chamber. The term used by Blacman to describe the dancers ("mulierculae") is more suggestive of prostitutes though the standard translation by M. R. James calls them "young ladies". Johnson claims that the "certain great lord" was Humphrey. Blacman is our sole source for this incident and does not identify the "certain great lord" and was trying to position Henry as a saint, for whom chastity was a chief requirement. As Katherine J. Lewis points out, the incident is part of a longstanding tradition in saints' lives where they resist sexual temptation (she also notes an "almost identical" episode in Caxton's life of St. Benedict) so it seems very doubtful that this incident actually occurred. Even if it was a truthful record, we have no way of knowing who the "certain great lord" was. Possibly, it was Humphrey but we have no way of determining it. It may be useful to note, too, that there is little evidence that Henry's piety was as strong as later traditions suggest.

** Contemporary sources made no suggestion of Humphrey's guilt, complicity in or knowledge of the plot. Although exculpatory, this made him appear a weak and emasculated figure whose unsound judgement had nearly brought ruin to his king and who could not control his wife or own household. Some modern historians have suggested he was complicit in or aware of the plot, but there is no evidence of this (the existence of the plot itself and Eleanor's guilt therein has been doubted explicitly since Tudor times). We have no idea what Henry, personally, made of the accusations. Johnson suggests he was frightened by Eleanor but given he was living in the same residence as she was imprisoned in at the height of the affair (literally when she was performing her penance walks) and one source claimed he intervened to save her life personally, it seems unlikely he was that frightened.

*** The exact charges against Humphrey are not known. However, the general consensus at the time and of subsequent chroniclers was that there was nothing in them, a consensus followed by historians.

[harry-leroy]

Can you write something in the AU where Hal lives and gets to know his son? Just him playing with little Henry would be nice!

Hello! Thank you so much for the ask! I really appreciate it:). 

So, this probably isn’t really what you were looking for, because the thing I wrote was real angsty, so get ready. Though, there’s a little cute moment in there that lasts for like five seconds. When I think about the Hal lives AU, I think that Hal and his son probably didn’t get along. Their conflicting personalities and the almost unbearable inheritance that lie before the prince would have driven a wedge of tension in between them. So that is what I explore here. 

Also this AU needs a cute name like all of the other AUs have, because the Hal lives AU is almost always wholesome (except for this situation and I apologize). I think there’s some deep part of us that really wanted Hal to live because of all that could have been. Okay- done being deep. Please enjoy! 

“Shall not thou

and I, between Saint Denis and Saint George, compound

a boy, half French, half English, that shall go

to Constantinople and take the Turk by the beard?

Shall we not? What say’st thou, my fair flower de

Luce?” - HENRY V [V.ii].

A trinity stood before the prince, one that appeared battered, on edge, yet authoritative and pressing. It was not a good talk that young Harry was in for. His father, with his living brothers at his side, John and Humphrey, boded for ill chastisement. The great Fifth Henry was now nearly fifty years of age, and despite what he would have liked to believe, age did not do him well. With the weight of the whole world on his shoulders, and the recent illness of his beloved Catherine, he appeared shrunk down and aching.

Hope shifted on his feet, watching the king with pain in his eyes, as if preparing for derision of his character. Hal’s only son was just as crushed by weights of his own, one his own mind, and the other the fear that he would not be so graceful at carrying the whole world as his father seemed to be able to. The prince swallowed when his father dismissed his two uncles, leaving the two of them alone. He felt like his father’s glance was enough to knock him down and keep him there, for he hadn’t the will to defy him.

Hal stepped down to meet his son, who was almost fifteen, and although he was becoming a man, he was far from being a desirable heir, though it deeply pained Hal to admit it to himself. Though, it was a different errancy than what he had displayed as a boy. Where Hal burned too bright, Henry was lackluster.

“I was told that you were dismissed from sword practice this morning,” Hal disliked the words in his mouth. It wasn’t the first time that it had happened.

The prince seemed to lose focus on the words he was trying to form in his head, knowing there was no counterargument. It was true. He rubbed his rough, bandaged hands together, nervous from nearly nothing. Henry’s hands should have callused by now, but they hadn’t. Perhaps they would have if he didn’t bite and them when these nerves took over him.

Proceeding as he knew his son’s inability to argue, “Do you know just what lies before you? When I am dead, you will be king of England and France. You will be king of everything and all, and such inheritances must be defended with sword, Henry. When I am dead-”

Hal stopped. It was an old speech. When I am dead only made his son upset. Once, when they both had been younger, they rode up the Dover coast together, racing across the rocky sand, white cliff sides rushing by them. When his nine year old son had outraced him to the rock at the end of the beach, the two of them laughed, then looked solemnly together across the channel. France loomed in the gray mist beyond, settled in blood and bones of fallen soldiers.

“France will be yours one day, Henry. Did you know that?” Hal looked at his son in admiration, not fearing for the future then.

“Of course I do,” Henry said precociously, with the annoyance that a child exhibited when his parents doted too much on him. “You tell me every day,”

“When I am dead, Henry, France will be yours” Hal said, pride swelling in his breast as he looked back out onto the sea, gray and bleak to match the overcast sky. Though, this time, when he looked back at his son, Hal found him distraught.

“Please don’t die,” Henry said in a breath, the last he could exhale before tears fell down his cheeks, red from the harsh, cold wind.

Now, his son said nothing. He knew what death was now. He felt its hand far too often for his young age. It exhausted him to fight it off, drove his will mad and prone to quit. His eyes, which lacked his father’s stern darkness, were pale and blank. It was the same mental blankness that sent him out of sword practice that morning and instead to his books. Henry could read circles around his father. It was one of the few things that brought him joy to talk of, but books would not fight off the choleric French, stuck in the south, pressurized and itching for air. Hal was able to fight them off, but he feared greatly for his son.

“Henry,” Hal began again, trying a different approach, as his dying wife had suggested he do, for her sake. “I know it pains you to take up sword. I know that war… does not agree with you. I know it is hard for you, but you are the son of the king. My son. And the French will not yield. Please Henry, please try again tomorrow, for me. And if not for me, then for your mother,”

His son began to weep, though he tried to fight it off. Though, it was a fate he was entirely powerless to take arms against. A Henry born at Monmouth should win all. A Henry born at Windsor should lose all. The prince knew it better than anyone. The king watched in horrified shock, unsure of how to comfort his son, so rather than frighten him, he let his son cry. Though, something kicked at him to do something.

“As you say, Father. I will do it,” Henry said, looking up through pale, lost, and innocent eyes. “As you say,”

Ah hope that wasn’t too much for you but this was fun to write! I would love more requests or prompts. So send me what you got! And I’ll happily do anything from English history (doesn’t always have to be my boy Henry VI- though I do love him >-