#we're delving deeper lads

[philosophiums]

i don’t fully agree with the way the op talked about this but a) there is lgbtq as identity and then there’s lgbtq as a political coalition. neither you nor op made any distinction between them and of course there’s overlap but that’s part of the issue with this whole argument. second not all ace people are straight obviously but a cisgender heterosexual person is what people are referring to when they talk about straight people. i don’t think that’s about exclusion it’s about being honest >>

about privilege imo plus the split attraction model is deeply problematic for a lot of reasons, namely that it assumes that “””allosexual””” lgbtq people somehow don’t experience atypical attraction or have complicated relationships with sex. that may not be the intention but it’s a problematic way to frame the conversation. like mogai culture has a lot of problems and if this is about community those concerns should be taken seriously. idk op was not wording things well but i think > >your response didn’t necessarily address some of the actual issues with mogai and/or the aro/ace discourse. like i think this has devolved into a “who can be in the club” argument and that’s not the point either “side” is trying to make. idk i just think this is an issue almost exclusively on the internet and it would be more productive for us all to discuss solutions bearing in mind historical and social context. i am really sorry some fuck sent you death threats over this though wtf

oh hey look an actual reasonable discussion. i’m going to break this down into a numbered list to stay a bit organized and try to address things as you brought them up so please don’t think the list is my way of being like... snappy or something

100% agree. lgbt as an identity vs lgbt as a political coalition are different but not mutually exclusive. lgbt+ is a looooong acronym and includes a broad range of alignments and identities, and it’s great that so many people can find comfort and community in that identity, and i think that anyone who feels like they’re not solidly cishet is welcome to try on some identities or keep themselves as “questioning” and educate themselves further about different identities and the community history, and no one should be held back from exploring because - shocker - identities and our understanding of them change frequently, especially in relation to ourselves

genuinely i think the split attraction model is the biggest problem here. and place the blame for this wherever you like (media, society, the church™, whatever). like i hate that our options are I Have/Want Sex All The Time vs Maybe I’m Acespec. that’s not.... how attraction works. that’s not how people work. the ace spectrum is.... so strange to me because “ace” as in “actually asexual” can not, by default (in my opinion) be cishet, because the “ace” replaces the “het.” they would be cis ace. unfortunately, i think a lot of the ace spectrum is full of sexuality modifiers (demi is probably the most popular one). demi isn’t actually.... a sexuality. i think it’s a valid identity and i think it should be allowed in the community, but we circle back to, then, the difference between lgbt as an identity and lgbt as a political coalition

i am 100% with everyone on the whole “some acespec people are cishet” thing. a cis girl who IDs as demi (i’ve already used it once i’ll keep going with it) but who is pretty sure she’ll only ever be attracted to cis guys is welcome to use lgbt as an identity, but shouldn’t have a say in lgbt as a coalition. she’s still cishet, because even though demi is “ace” in the absolute loosest of terms (because it’s on the spectrum), it’s a modifier. the reason i get so worked up about ace discourse posts is that no one who makes them bothers to differentiate between asexual and the rest of the spectrum - they just say “ace” and refuse to acknowledge it as its own sexuality. asexuality is, by default, not cishet. and like... i’m saying this as someone who ID-ed as demi for a long time because i was still convinced due to social expectations that “surely i have to want to have sex i just need to find the right person” 

however, of course, you then get into the complications of “some people who were cishet but who were abused are now ID-ing as asexual and should they be allowed to ID as lgbt as a coalition.” well... no. they have always been cishet. if they want to actually ID as asexual then i think they can use lgbt as an identity, but the other side of it isn’t open to them

also please don’t get me started on romantic attraction i’m not even sure it’s a super real thing i honestly think it’s something (western) society more or less made up by uplifting the ideals of marriage and more or less banning close physical contact between friends because honestly how do you even define romance as an attraction it’s bonkers 

i didn’t touch on this stuff in my initial reply to the post because every time there’s ace discourse it always seems to boil down to “we can’t be adults and understand that there’s nuance and complications to all of this so we’re just going to hate all acespec people and try to ban them from ID-ing as lgbt and they’re only valid if they also hastily say that they’re trans or wlw/mlm but they’re on thin ice.” and that pisses me off because if you think you’re in a sound enough place to start dictating who is and isn’t allowed to say “i fit into the lgbt political coalition” then you need to be less line-in-the-sand about it and more understanding to the fact that some people who identify as ace actually aren’t cishet Even If They’re Still Cis And Not Bi/Gay/Pan/Etc. because asexual is. literally. a sexuality and you can’t be het if you’re not. attracted to people?

but yeah like......... no one can really be the Identity Police and say that someone who thinks themselves to be something other than the social standard of cishet isn’t allowed to identify as lgbt (allies can fuck off they don’t get to be in the acronym but like.... it’s open ended with a + for a reason). and i think that anyone who wants to identify as lgbt needs to start doing some research on different identities and on the history of lgbt as a political coalition and it’s evolution as an identity as well. and you’re right - none of this actually exists in the real world, because it typically happens that getting into discussions in the real world results in learning instead of tightening your grip on your beliefs (which is how tumblr discussions always go; everyone gets defensive and no one actually learns anything)

and i’m not saying that even i’m 100% right. everything is so dependent on minute details and individual identities. we get so used to binaries that i think it’s difficult, sometimes, to remember that no two people are in the same exact place on the spectrum. no one experiences their sexuality the way another person does. sometimes even the definitions of terms and identities are different for different people, and they change so damn frequently

thank you for being a reasonable human being and please feel free to keep up the discussion if you want to ♡♡♡