#we have more important things to be discussing than ''are intersex AFAB people TMA or TME?'' yknow

[spiderbitesandvampirevenom]

I mean, I think you partially answered your own question there. Because you're right, If we treat TMA/TME as a binary it can't include intersex issues. And you're right, it is often applied without any consideration towards intersex issues. However, my point with the original post is that TMA/TME isn't and shouldn't be a binary.

First of all, lets talk real quick about the terms themselves. Transmisogyny Affected/Exempt. These are deceptively simple labels, and I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes up for people. Transmisogyny can refer to specific interpersonal acts, but it's also first and foremost a term describing the societal system that is designed to oppress transfems, i.e. people who were Assigned Male At Birth and no longer identify with that. And at a systemic level, that is the deciding factor. Transmisogyny picks its targets based on that assignment at birth. Individually, people who were not AMAB may find themselves the target of interpersonal transmisogyny, just as any individual can be mistakenly targeted by bigotry that doesn't apply to them. I get misdirected anti-hispanic shit thrown at me all the time, it doesn't make me hispanic. Likewise, being subjected to transmisogyny as someone who was AFAB does not necessarily make one TMA.

You're right, though, being intersex means you're not necessarily going to fall neatly into either a TMA or a TME bucket. Which means unfortunately when perisex people get to spend some time adjusting to the concept in Transmisogyny 1001: Transfemininity for Babies, you've been forced to skip ahead a bit to Transmisogyny 2001: Critical Thinking & Intersectionality. I don't know you or anything about you, so I'm not gonna talk too specifically here, I'm just trying to give you the lead to make your own analysis. SO. Here we go.

On some issues, you might be reasonably considered affected by transmisogyny. Depending on where you live and how legislation is written, you might find yourself targeted by transmisogynistic legislation. On many issues, however, as someone who was AFAB, you will find you are not going to be affected systemically by those issues. Because Transmisogyny's primary target is (primarily perisex) people who were AMAB and are now transfem. Regardless of whether or not you're TMA/TME though, this overlap in the treatment of transfem people and intersex people means we get to do something really cool called Intersectionality, where we focus on discussing the shared problems our communities face. Like personally, I don't particularly care whether or not you're TMA/TME. The fact that we have shared experiences matters more than the labels at that point. Transmisogyny and Intersexism have very similar playbooks and a lot of the time, one is going to include some level of the other. I'd rather discuss the intersection of our experiences than try to delineate where one starts and the other ends.

you folks realise TME isnt just a new synonym for transmasc right. like you realize when trans women are talking about TransMisogyny Exempt Individuals that includes, like, for example, cis men and women, right?? if you're gonna throw a fit over TMA/TME being "a new binary" i think you are a) purposefully misrepresenting these terms for the sake of delegitimizing them or b) being taken advantage of by those who do so. check your transmisogyny and do better lmao.

[genderkoolaid]

re: tme discourse. did these people forget about gnc men?? gnc men are ABSOLUTELY affected by transmisogyny despite not being transfem. but that's not convenient for the argument so it doesn't matter (sarcasm)

I mean they literally do not care. The answer to this will always be "that's just misdirected transmisogyny, its not the same". I've seen people claim that homophobia towards queer men is essentially transmisogyny-lite (and the two are connected but imo its about the misandry/antimasculism directed at queer people perceived at transgressing male gender roles, and I have a feeling TME/TMA proponents would Not like that interpretation lmao).

The thing is I do understand part of the use for TME/TMA. In that transfems are the targets of transmisogyny, tend to be the ones most aware of it because of this, and therefore transfem voices should be central to its discussion*. But thats true of every single form of bigotry, and we don't use this "affected/exempt" system for literally anything else. Because its entirely unhelpful to imply that who can be affected by a bigotry is based on their identity. Not only can you be targeted for the wrong reasons, but it can be physically and mentally damaging and occur often enough to be a fundamental part of your life experience. And this is why I mean that "misdirected bigotry" is never used for anything other than possessiveness over being the victims of a certain type of bigotry. Its only ever used to tell other people that their victimization was less harmful and that they do not have a right to speak about that form of bigotry, creating a dichotomy between "real victims" and "fake victims", which alienates a large portion of the people being directly affected by that bigotry.

I try to do the opposite on this blog: while transmascs should be centered in discussions of transandrophobia, I actively encourage anyone to discuss their experiences with it, or antimasculism/misandry, or exorsexism, or anything I talk about! Because it helps us learn more about the functions of bigotry, and creates solidarity between all victims regardless of who they are. People who otherwise would not have had their pain validated (bc they are not in communities where it is addressed in the first place) are helped, and we get so many more comrades in our fight! And we can be open and supportive of non-transmasc transandrophobia (or non-transfem victims of transmisogyny) without decentering transamscs(/transfems) from the discussion.

The reason why creating this victim binary is important for TME/TMA is because imo these acronyms cannot be divorced from the baeddelist idea that transmisogyny is the worst form of transphobia/oppression, and non-transfems are oppressors of transfems... and therefore cannot be allied with, or can only be allied with if they act subservient**. Its fundamentally tied to the idea that other trans people have systematic power over transfems (& the sister belief of "transphobia isnt real its all transmisogyny" and "transfems are the only real trans people"). Which is antithetical to transunity. The belief that transmascs/afab trans people(/maybe amab trans people depending on whos talking about who) have an oppressor/oppressed relationship with transfems should be a major red flag; it's the source of a lot of people's feelings of not having the authority to talk about transphobia or transness in general. It's the source of uncomfortable dynamics between transmascs&fems where transmascs are expected to be differential to transfems and see themselves as oppressors obliged to "give back" to their victims. It's the source of transmascs being told they aren't in danger and have an obligation to serve as human shields for transfems, which puts can put people in real, serious danger.

ANYWAYS. My point is that there is no group you can pull out to prove TME/TMA proponents wrong. Even intersex people are either completely ignored, demonized, or heavily criticized and nitpicked when talking about how this binary is intersexist, and same with black women, despite intersex cis black women being a main target of a lot of transmisogyny. The fact that non-AMAB transfems experience transmisogyny will not do anything to make them change their minds because it can and will always be labeled "misdirected" and therefore insignificant.

*before anyone says some shit: transfems helped create transunity, many transunitist are explicitly following the beliefs of transfems they know and have learned from. anti-transunitist transfems are not the only ones to have valid opinions on how transmisogyny works. stop erasing the work transfems have put into constructing transunity theory. its okay to admit you disagree with transunitist transfems you don't have to act like they don't exist while harassing them off the internet

**no this is not about all transfems. there are many transfems outspokenly against this & many transfems who have been hurt by this. it is not transmisogynistic to address the real, serious harm certain transfems have done to trans people, which (as can be read abt in the link) very much includes abusive behavior towards transmascs which (imo) mirrors a lot of the rhetoric I see online about how "TMEs" should behave.

[carrionsong]

Transmisogyny is very real, very targeted, and very awful, but I think where ppl are coming from in criticism of the TMA/TME labels, is that it may seem like inventing and reinforcing a different kind of binary in a way when the human experience is very complex. And re: the outing part, I think people sometimes forget even amongst our peers in the queer community, no one is actually entitled to information about someone else's transition, or assigned sex at birth

i dont personally see it as a cut and dry binary when i mentioned that the terms arent perfect bc obviously they dont always include intersex trans peoples experiences And racialized views towards womanhood/what is seen masculine or "man like". its not meant to really be one when these experiences can overlap so often, plus it lumps in cis men / trans men / cis women / afab nonbinary people in one so thats a Hell of a "binary". our experiences Are complex and we dont all live in the us/western world, so we can all have different experiences and still have it be a trans and queer experience that trans and intersex people share! and thats a really good point too! intersex women Do have shared experiences with transfems as people who are degendered and seen as lesser bc of cagab. but we can share experiences and still be transphobic or transmisogynistic to other people. the problem lies with how pervasive and universal transmisogyny is, and how it affects transfems everywhere regardless of where they live. its inescapable!

and i feel like saying that it outs us queer people when the question the terms are asking is, do you experience transmisogyny... is a bit disingenuous. when we are discussing transmisogyny, our cagab and axes of oppression does very much matter. its not a top-down, "im more oppressed than You" kind of thing, but we perpetuate it! even if we share experiences, that doesnt mean we cant still put each other down and be transmisogynistic towards transfems, thats the whole point!

simply put, its language to describe often unique lived experiences that a transfem person has in a patriarchal society where they are subjugated, punished, and killed for being "failed men", and degendered and denied trans womanhood as a result. how transfems are expected to be meek doormats and shoulder our collective societal abuse lest we see them as inherent abusers and rapists bc of their cagab, and how every single thing a transfem does is under scrutiny bc of them being """male-adjacent""" (made a face typing that shit out but its how its seen.) and having to shrink themselves down to a shell of themselves for the Chance to be treated as a person.

its obviously not a cure all term to neatly describe every single experience we as queer people have in a nice little box, but its a Start! we cannot ignore how insanely transmisogynistic society and our online spaces are, so having language to talk about it is important as we expand our understanding of it and critique it along the way! bloomfilters on twitter describes this much better than i can with this thread, i follow her and their transfeminine oppression analyses are super well written and easy to understand and shes super smart and cool :]