#tired of *serious star trek that's ostensibly deeper than older star trek for being more *real* about the cost of paradise*

[a-stitch-in-time-and-space]

said it perfectly. DS9 is not "the edgy star trek" just because it's centered around war and genocide as some of its big themes -- this is what annoys me so much about post-DS9 writing and fanboying (im sure there's fangirling about it too, but people like kurtzman and many of the guys who have since been in charge + some of the beta canon ive read) about things like section 31

it really makes me wonder what he -- and many others -- got out of DS9. did they watch it as the thing that they can now develop a post-star trek grimmer reality out of? do they understand the ideas behind utopian fiction writing?

section 31 was not written as a "necessity to maintain society" that's... literally meant to be propaganda in the text. it was written as something cruel, and underhanded, and not in congruence with what the ideals of maintaining a good, open society needs to be, something to be fought against, as you say

DS9 opened up questions about colonialisation and forced assimilation and cultural genocide, and those are the ideas id be more interested in seeing developed further by writers who're equipped to handle it!

DS9 said "people are still people and utopia is not a given, nor is it simple, but that is why we must continue to strive for better, for all of us, and try to find ways of making that happen and sometimes we'll fail, but we'll continue after that too" not "utopia must be maintained through shadowy organisations with no oversight that get to do what they want in the name of freedom or peace"

and any writers or showrunners that think it's the latter need to have a big long think about why they think that's the case, because that says a lot more about their politics than star trek's

All this Kurtzman/Section 31 stuff reminds me that not enough people have seen (or understood, I guess) Star Trek:Deep Space Nine.

Because it gets described as "it made the Federation a morally gray society instead of a utopia!" or "it fought back against Roddenberry's vision for the Federation and Star Trek!" and it's like... did you watch the same show?

DS9 didn't think the federation was any less of a utopia, than TNG or TOS or VOY, it said EVEN IN A UTOPIA, THERE WILL BE CHALLENGES, THERE WILL BE USURPERS, THERE WILL BE SNAKES IN THE GARDEN: THAT IS WHY WE MUST FIGHT!

Homefront/Paradise lost are about how even in a utopia, authoritarians will sell fear and get people to give up their freedoms. Fascists will burn the Reichstag to create a crisis they can exploit.

Doctor Bashir, I Presume showed that for a society without money, people still worry about success, and their legacy, and they'll do horrible things to their children to make sure they can be that legacy. And the episode CLEARLY DISAPPROVES OF THIS! The man responsible realizes the error of his ways and submits to punishment to save his son.

I don't want to list examples all day, I have other stuff to do, but DS9 very much didn't say "utopias aren't real, every so-called utopia has evil somewhere in the foundations", it said that utopias are something you have to fight to maintain. You can't take the easy answers, listen to the fascists promising safety, and avoid examining the faults of your society. Sorry. But the good news is that you can, you can win, and you aren't alone.

DS9 was aiming for more of a "realistic utopia" than other Treks, it's true, but despite that realism it still said a utopia was possible. It used that realism to show that a better world must still be fought for. And it warned against anyone selling easy solutions to those battles.

Because as has been pointed out recently, fascists don't sell eternal war and oppression to the in-group: they promise safety and power and belonging and prosperity. They're gonna oppress them to save us.

DS9 said those men are not to be trusted, and must be opposed. It won't be easy, there will be struggles, but they will be stopped. The world will get better. We can do this, together.

I don't know about you, but I find that more optimistic than if they hadn't, and just said The Federation is Perfect Forever.